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Permanent Ban from Animal & Pet Issues
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02-05-2012 1:34pm#1I am opening this thread with g'em's agreement:
"We can open a dialogue in the Help Desk if you wish and the A&PI Mods can join in the discussion."
During a discussion with a poster I quoted a comment that they had posted in a different Boards forum to indicate that they were being hypocritical - I ended the post with a smilie to indicate that it was light-heartedly intended.
I received a yellow card from Starpants with the following comment:
"Taking posts from other threads/forums to throw at a poster is not the done thing on Boards and generally viewed as being out of order."
I replied with the following:Discodog wrote:I apologise. I didn't know that quoting a posters comments from other Boards forums was considered bad practice. I always assumed that we are what we post in all forums.
As far as I was concerned the matter was now closed. Having seen lots of examples of quoting across forums I wondered what was the view of this across the Boards community so I opened a feedback thread with the following opening post:
"I just discovered that it is considered bad form to quote a poster's comment in one forum during a discussion in another forum. I wondered what the idea was behind this as I had assumed that anything you post is up for comment.
For example, if a poster in After Hours said that politician x was the greatest thing since sliced bread but then posted in Politics to say that the same politician was a corrupt gombeen, surely one should be able to point out that they are being a hypocrite."
So I didn't post in Dispute Resolution, I didn't refer to a specific incident or moderator decision & I gave an example that didn't relate the API forum.
Zaph replied & made a valid point which merited further discussion. Then Hellrazer intervened & accused me of questioning a Mod decision. Specifically he alleged that “Discodog that rule was always in place in the forum and you well knew it”. So he is calling me a liar & refusing to take the assurance in my PM as genuine.
He then adds that “And once again you have decided to take it to feedback to question the mods decision that gave you the yellow card.”
This is not true. I did not question the Mods decision, I sent them an apology. If I were questioning the decision then I would of opened a thread in DR not FB. This is the second time that an API Mod has incorrectly hijacked a Feedback thread. In the following thread an API Mod leaps in but in this case the thread continues into a good discussion despite their input.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73814925
Board’s Users must be free to use Feedback, without fear of reprisals & it is also a general principle that one accepts that a User is speaking the truth.
g’em then intervened & made the following remarks:
“Discodog I have permabanned your from A&PI. You are a constant time sink on the local Mods. This passive aggressive feedback thread is a classic example of how you refuse to accept responsibility for your own actions. It's not them, its you.
I don't doubt for a second that you are a very knowledgeable poster but the soapboxing, constant questioning of rules, Charters, Mod action etc. is just too much. I can't in good conscience keep sacrificing the sanity of the Mods for one poster. To pre-empt further discussion I'm closing this thread now. We can open a dialogue in the Help Desk if you wish and the A&PI Mods can join in the discussion.
This is not real feedback, this is grinding an axe on your part.”
Firstly the Feedback thread has nothing to do with the API Mods & it did not require their input. I did accept responsibility by apologising to the Mod via PM. It is totally unfair of g’em to assume that I am “axe grinding” when I have clearly stated that I am not. It is also unfair to close the Feedback thread when it is posing a perfectly valid question. This is not the first time that comments that I have made in Feedback threads have been used against me & this should be totally against Boards rules - otherwise people will be afraid to post.
All Moderators know that their decisions & actions are subject to scrutiny & 99% of them have no problem with this & they do a brilliant job. Most moderators are comfortable with the decisions that they make & are perfectly willing to discuss them in a civilised & polite manner. I recently exchanged a number of PM’s with g’em during which we had, what I thought to be, a thoughtful discussion. I clearly stated that I would abide by the rules of the API forum & as far as I am aware, I have.
I reiterate that I was not aware that cross quoting was against the rules & it is reasonable that I would not be aware if I can't find it mentioned anywhere. I do not understand g’em’s reference to “aggressive/passive”. I asked a genuine, valid question that g’em has used unfairly as a pretext to issue a permanent ban.
We have to take people at face value on Boards & act on their words rather than our assumption of their meaning. A polite post in Feedback should never result in any disciplinary action let alone a permanent ban.0
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Hellrazer posted a reply here & I have been in the process of replying to him, but now his post has disappeared
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Hellrazer deleted his post shortly afterwards.
Once a DRP is opened, mods must be invited into the thread by the cmod looking into the dispute.
Unsolicited input is not entertained.
It is a bank holiday weekend, so please be patient ... a cmod will be along shortly.0 -
Thanks - I have plenty of time
I thought & maybe so did Hellrazer, that g'em had agreed for the Mods to post in the thread as mentioned in my opening line.0 -
The A & PI mods can certainly take part, if they wish, once they have been invited by the cmod.
DRP is not a free-form debate. The DRP process will have to be followed, for everyone's benefit.0 -
Thanks - I have plenty of time
I thought & maybe so did Hellrazer, that g'em had agreed for the Mods to post in the thread as mentioned in my opening line.
I suggested you post in Help Desk - you posted in the DRP, a subforum of the Help Desk. I'll move this now and the local Mods can get involved.
I don't see this as being a DRP at this point: the permaban is a last resort and has come on the back of a cumulation of events, so to that effect there is no 'one' event to be disputed, it's more that your presence on the forum and whether or not you and the Co-Mods can co-exist in harmony needs to be established.
The thread is now open for the other Mods to post.
The perma-ban may or may not be lifted depending on whether Discodog and the Mods can come to a mutual resolution.0 -
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Irrespective of how the matter is dealt with none of us would be here if my immediate apology, following the yellow card, had been accepted & the Feedback thread not seen as challenging the Mods.
This is a key point because my posts in this & other feedback threads have been used against me which goes totally against the principles & ethos of Feedback. The Feedback Charter states that:
“This forum is for Feedback on boards.ie related issues. It is a place for you to offer feedback - comments, suggestions, and air your opinion on how the site is being run and what you find good or bad.
(This is not a forum to appeal against a decision by a moderator against you, for that you should use the Dispute Resolution Procedure which you can find HERE.)
It is an opportunity for the users to interact with the mods/cmods/admins on equal footing and receive answers to questions. Discussion of mod behaviour / issues will be allowed but must remain non-abusive “
It is totally unacceptable to use a post in a Feedback thread as a reason for an infraction or ban unless the post is abusive which mine have never been.0 -
It is totally unacceptable to use a post in a Feedback thread as a reason for an infraction or ban unless the post is abusive which mine have never been.
That's a matter of opinion to be honest and as stated the ban was merely the end result of years of contention between yourself and various mods of the forum both past and present. So do you want a public discussion on the matter or not? I'm sure you are aware that issues between posters and mods are a private matter and cannot be discussed with anyone else by the mods, the same goes for PM's. This often leads to one side of the story 'getting around' so I for one would certainly welcome an open discussion of your issues. Maybe when you figure out if this is what you want or not you can let us know.0 -
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My biggest issue with you discodog is that you wont accept any moderators decisions.Whether that directly affects you personally or not.You continually question the rules and wont accept any moderators word on it.
And then constantly complain about the mods in either this forum or in feedback or even in any other forum on boards that you can trying to make the point that its silencing discussion when in reality you dont know what goes on.
Ive personally(and other mods and recently cmods and admins) tried to explain things to you via pm/on thread here and in the feedback forum etc but you never seem to "get it" and at the next available opportunity you complain again about the moderating of the forum.
It destroys ones sanity after a while.
For example in the past we`ve had to change rules around because of issues that have come to our attention from above.We change the rules and then you constantly question them.
Take for example the rule regarding rescues.That came about from threats of legal action from a couple of these rescues.In my opinion they ruined it for themselves.
We gave them.
1.Basically a whole forum for themselves to discuss animal welfare.
2.A thread for rehoming their animals.
3.A lot of leeway in their discussions.
What did they then do--Bitched and moaned about each other and whether their rescue was better than the other and made threats of legal action against boards.ie.
They couldnt take any criticism whatsoever.Hence the no discussing individual rescues rule.
Then there was the soapboxing rule.There were a few users who basically started a questionable thread that was going to stir things up and then left it there and watched from the sidelines while the **** hit the fan.They never posted in those threads again but used boards as a voice for their agenda.These users were banned but the rule has stayed in place.
If we`re going to get this out there then you need to start seeing it from our point of view--You constantly question mod decisions,constantly question the rules and constantly compare us to other fora that you frequent.
In your favour though I do have to say that your knowledge is unsurpassed in the forum when it comes to animal welfare issues and its a real pity that it has come to this and I also feel that you will be a huge loss to the forum but I also have to look at my sanity and the other mods sanity in that we cant keep doing this with one user over and over every few months.0 -
Irrespective of how the matter is dealt with none of us would be here if my immediate apology, following the yellow card, had been accepted & the Feedback thread not seen as challenging the Mods.
This is a key point because my posts in this & other feedback threads have been used against me which goes totally against the principles & ethos of Feedback. The Feedback Charter states that:
“This forum is for Feedback on boards.ie related issues. It is a place for you to offer feedback - comments, suggestions, and air your opinion on how the site is being run and what you find good or bad.
(This is not a forum to appeal against a decision by a moderator against you, for that you should use the Dispute Resolution Procedure which you can find HERE.)
It is an opportunity for the users to interact with the mods/cmods/admins on equal footing and receive answers to questions. Discussion of mod behaviour / issues will be allowed but must remain non-abusive “
It is totally unacceptable to use a post in a Feedback thread as a reason for an infraction or ban unless the post is abusive which mine have never been.
This is not about how this was handled. This is about you and your standing on the Animals and Pet Issues forum. This is not a court of law, I do not need to prove beyond reasonable doubt why you did something. Going by previous form and your habit of nitpicking Mod decisions in Feedback in a rather passive aggressive way I have no doubt that the thread you started in FB had the same undertones.
The onus is now on you to convince the forum Mods why you should be given access to the A&PI forum.0 -
Firstly I apologise for the delay in replying. For some strange reason my email notifications stopped - one for Conspiracy Theories !adrenalinjunkie wrote: »That's a matter of opinion to be honest
I disagree. What is the point in having feedback & How's our Driving threads if people cannot express an honest opinion ? I believe that this is a fundamental principle.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »So do you want a public discussion on the matter or not? I'm sure you are aware that issues between posters and mods are a private matter and cannot be discussed with anyone else by the mods, the same goes for PM's. This often leads to one side of the story 'getting around' so I for one would certainly welcome an open discussion of your issues. Maybe when you figure out if this is what you want or not you can let us know.
I welcome open discussion & I wrongly assumed that this was the purpose of Feedback. We rightly cannot discuss moderation on thread so the only other option is in Feedback threads & this is then used as "evidence" against us. You personally intervened in a Feedback thread & alleged that I was questioning you moderation - as you can see I wasn’t:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73813008
This begs the question as to whether you intervened to deliberately make me look as if I was questioning you. The other posters on the thread, including several Mods, didn’t see it that way. Most posters, including Mods, would of apologised.My biggest issue with you discodog is that you wont accept any moderators decisions.Whether that directly affects you personally or not.You continually question the rules and wont accept any moderators word on it.
I immediately accepted the Moderator's decision & apologised to them via PM. You chose to escalate the matter by refusing to accept the apology & my motive for starting a Feedback thread. Had you not of done so we wouldn't be here. This suggests that you seized on the opportunity as a reason to turn a yellow card into a permanent ban.And then constantly complain about the mods in either this forum or in feedback or even in any other forum on boards that you can trying to make the point that its silencing discussion when in reality you dont know what goes on.
The last Feedback thread that I started regarding API was three years ago.
I have used the Dispute Resolution process following the receipt of a three day ban. Any user is entitled to do this & it happens every day. Posters all over Boards comment about Moderation & Moderators - there are currently threads in AH & Soccer. The difference is that the Moderators are willing to listen & accept criticism. They see this as part of the job. API Moderators see themselves as totally beyond criticism.Ive personally(and other mods and recently cmods and admins) tried to explain things to you via pm/on thread here and in the feedback forum etc but you never seem to "get it" and at the next available opportunity you complain again about the moderating of the forum.
No one is going to “get it” if the explanation doesn’t bear up to scrutiny. Have you ever asked yourself why I complain especially when even comments on Feedback threads get abused ? You know very well that many posters are unhappy about the rules & moderation in API. At least I am open & my opinions can be challenged.
The API forum is unusual in that the advice & opinion given can have a direct result on the welfare of a animal or even the safety of a human. It is much more that a hobby or recreation forum yet whole swaths of discussion & topics are against the rules. Surely the members of the forum, many of whom give up a lot of time to answering questions, are entitled to express opinions regarding the rules & moderation provided they do so in the appropriate way ?It destroys ones sanity after a while.
You know very well that I do not trouble you very often. When was the last time that you had a PM from me regarding moderation ? If I am the only person complaining & in your words I do so every few months, your sanity should be able to cope.For example in the past we`ve had to change rules around because of issues that have come to our attention from above.We change the rules and then you constantly question them.
Take for example the rule regarding rescues.That came about from threats of legal action from a couple of these rescues.In my opinion they ruined it for themselves.
We gave them.
1.Basically a whole forum for themselves to discuss animal welfare.
2.A thread for rehoming their animals.
3.A lot of leeway in their discussions.
What did they then do--Bitched and moaned about each other and whether their rescue was better than the other and made threats of legal action against boards.ie.
They couldnt take any criticism whatsoever.Hence the no discussing individual rescues rule.
We all know that things go on that we are not told about. But this is not an excuse to treat intelligent posters like idiots. For example we would all like to believe that the ban on naming animal rescues is for the purposes of avoiding legal action but it makes a mockery of the argument when they can be named in other Boards forums. For example there was recently a thread posted in the Limerick Forum that not only named a rescue but was highly critical of it.
I requested the Animal Welfare forum. I disagree with your view of what happened & why.Then there was the soapboxing rule.There were a few users who basically started a questionable thread that was going to stir things up and then left it there and watched from the sidelines while the **** hit the fan.They never posted in those threads again but used boards as a voice for their agenda.These users were banned but the rule has stayed in place.
Again I have to disagree with you. The way that the “Soapboxing” rules has been used against me is nothing like your example. It is now being used as a blanket way to infract someone - a bit like the “being a dick rule”. Moderator discretion is an honour that shouldn’t be abused.If we`re going to get this out there then you need to start seeing it from our point of view--You constantly question mod decisions,constantly question the rules and constantly compare us to other fora that you frequent.
I read your point of view but you have to respect someone’s right to disagree with you. You can’t batter people into submission. I do not constantly question moderator decisions & I didn’t in this case. You were the one who decided to turn a mountain into a molehill for the purpose of getting me banned.
I do compare API to all the other Boards fora. I accept that all forums have their own rules but there should be a common consensus. API causes grief because it has a combination of a myriad of rules, including many that don’t apply elsewhere on Boards, & overzealous Moderation. It is extremely easy for any poster to incur an infraction. The rules also get changed without warning. As you know you added a ban on the discussion of Greyhound racing without warning & I believe that a user was infracted. You then denied doing it until it was proved otherwise.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056525934
You even added a suggestion that users check the charter every time before they post in case the rules have changed:
“Maybe users should check it every time before they post that way some users might actually eventually understand the rules.”In your favour though I do have to say that your knowledge is unsurpassed in the forum when it comes to animal welfare issues and its a real pity that it has come to this and I also feel that you will be a huge loss to the forum but I also have to look at my sanity and the other mods sanity in that we cant keep doing this with one user over and over every few months.
If I no longer post in API then I join a long list of people that used to give a great deal of their time & knowledge to the forum. I repeat that you instigated this episode - not me.This is not about how this was handled. This is about you and your standing on the Animals and Pet Issues forum. This is not a court of law, I do not need to prove beyond reasonable doubt why you did something. Going by previous form and your habit of nitpicking Mod decisions in Feedback in a rather passive aggressive way I have no doubt that the thread you started in FB had the same undertones.
The onus is now on you to convince the forum Mods why you should be given access to the A&PI forum.
I disagree because it is the way that the issue has been handled & the failure to accept my apology that has resulted in this thread.
I told you, via PM, that I was totally prepared to abide by the rules of the forum. You appear to have chosen to use an innocent Feedback thread to implement your threat of a permanent ban. It seems very clear that a decision was made to ban me some time ago & you were just waiting for an excuse.
No it is not a Court of Law but Boards was founded on the basic principle that you take people for the words that they actually say & not on a biased interpretation. You criticise the post & not the poster. Yet here you ignore what I say & impose your own interpretation.
Boards makes a big play regarding fairness. My standing on the API forum is, according to Hellrazer, as someone of knowledge. I have never been offensive or disrespectful & I have only incurred 1 red & 2 yellow cards in API. Trying to convince you, as an Admin, that you might of been wrong in imposing a ban is pretty pointless. If by “convince the Mods” you mean that I should agree with the way that the forum is moderated then this would be extreme hypocrisy on my part. In any case, as previous events have shown, it would only be a matter of time before I was permanently banned - again !
To of been treated so unfairly by an Administrator would be enough to put anyone off Boards but I know that the vast majority of the site, the Fora, the Mods, Admins etc are brilliant. I was going to post on the “How do Mods do it ?” thread in AH & actually praise the majority - I decided not to as you might misinterpret my comment as sarcasm. If the Mods were less selective in their examples they would of found posts by me speaking out in support of Seamus, when he all too briefly modded API. If Starpants is honest then she will admit that I have PM’d her messages of support.
I will always believe that API could be an excellent forum. I tried to constructively suggest that there might be an alternative way of doing things & that people tend to react to the way that they are treated. API should never of been put in Rec - some of the issues go way beyond a pastime. It would of been a very different forum had it been in Soc with say the likes of Seamus & Wibbs at the helm.
Less than 50% of my posts have been in API & I have a virtually flawless disciplinary record throughout the rest of Boards. I am pretty sure that I will be able to continue posting without incurring infractions let alone bans. If Hellrazer’s words are true then API will miss me more that I will miss all the grief that goes with posting there.0 -
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I immediately accepted the Moderator's decision & apologised to them via PM. You chose to escalate the matter by refusing to accept the apology & my motive for starting a Feedback thread. Had you not of done so we wouldn't be here. This suggests that you seized on the opportunity as a reason to turn a yellow card into a permanent ban.
Since youve obviously decided to single me out here Im only responding to what concerns that issue.
You are completely wrong here on so many levels.The ban was for being a time sink ie wasting mods,cmods and admins time with your constant questioning of the rules.The last Feedback thread that I started regarding API was three years ago.
Anyone can do a search of this and feedback and see your constant slating of the mods/forum in general.I have used the Dispute Resolution process following the receipt of a three day ban. Any user is entitled to do this & it happens every day. Posters all over Boards comment about Moderation & Moderators - there are currently threads in AH & Soccer. The difference is that the Moderators are willing to listen & accept criticism. They see this as part of the job. API Moderators see themselves as totally beyond criticism.
Personally I can take any criticism anyone can throw at me--Its not like Im getting paid for this and criticism goes completely over my head.No one is going to “get it” if the explanation doesn’t bear up to scrutiny. Have you ever asked yourself why I complain especially when even comments on Feedback threads get abused ?
Hang on a minute here--Ive personally explained rules changes to you via pm,on thread etc.You take what you want out if those explanations and then complain when it doesnt suit you.You know very well that many posters are unhappy about the rules & moderation in API. At least I am open & my opinions can be challenged.
Ok lets see how many other complaints I have had regarding the rules--ehhhh-None.Not a single complaint from any other user of the forum.Oh sorry a few pm`s asking for your ban to be lifted.The API forum is unusual in that the advice & opinion given can have a direct result on the welfare of a animal or even the safety of a human. It is much more that a hobby or recreation forum yet whole swaths of discussion & topics are against the rules. Surely the members of the forum, many of whom give up a lot of time to answering questions, are entitled to express opinions regarding the rules & moderation provided they do so in the appropriate way ?
My inbox is always there for anyone to talk about any aspect of the forum.But no one else has complained by pm to me or any of the other mods for that matter as far as Im aware.You know very well that I do not trouble you very often. When was the last time that you had a PM from me regarding moderation ? If I am the only person complaining & in your words I do so every few months, your sanity should be able to cope.
Only because I decided that I wasnt going to respond to you anymore and let the cmods handle it which I believe Gem and Trout have already pm`d you about.We all know that things go on that we are not told about. But this is not an excuse to treat intelligent posters like idiots. For example we would all like to believe that the ban on naming animal rescues is for the purposes of avoiding legal action but it makes a mockery of the argument when they can be named in other Boards forums. For example there was recently a thread posted in the Limerick Forum that not only named a rescue but was highly critical of it.
I requested the Animal Welfare forum. I disagree with your view of what happened & why.
I couldnt care less whats mentioned in other fora.I look after Animals and Pets.If an admin tells me theyve received x number of legal threats in one weekend and that a certain discussion has to stop then thats it and you as a user if the forum has to take that as gospel wheter you disagree with it or not.Again I have to disagree with you. The way that the “Soapboxing” rules has been used against me is nothing like your example. It is now being used as a blanket way to infract someone - a bit like the “being a dick rule”. Moderator discretion is an honour that shouldn’t be abused.
Actually the soap boxing rule was brought in for another reason and another user--Its not all about you,you know.But if you broke that rule after it was implemented then thats your fault and no one elses.I read your point of view but you have to respect someone’s right to disagree with you. You can’t batter people into submission. I do not constantly question moderator decisions & I didn’t in this case.
Yes you do.You start feedback threads for "information" purposes after a warning etc and use it as a method to question mod decisions.You were the one who decided to turn a mountain into a molehill for the purpose of getting me banned.
Again youre so wrong with this line of thought--Ive saved you from a forum ban more times than you know.As you know you added a ban on the discussion of Greyhound racing without warning & I believe that a user was infracted. You then denied doing it until it was proved otherwise.
Wrong again-Get your facts right in future.That user wasnt banned for discussing greyhound racing but for starting a second thread after being warned about the first one trying to get people to boycott an event.A post which I made on thread to clarify it.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76731726&postcount=18http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056525934
You even added a suggestion that users check the charter every time before they post in case the rules have changed:
“Maybe users should check it every time before they post that way some users might actually eventually understand the rules.”
That was a comment made in response to another moan about the rules. And yep there are some users that could do with reading them before they post.If I no longer post in API then I join a long list of people that used to give a great deal of their time & knowledge to the forum. I repeat that you instigated this episode - not me.
No I didnt-you did by constantly questiong the mods and the rules.0 -
I've skimmed through your post above because frankly, I don't have the time for this (and time is the number one issue here as in how much of other peoples lives you have wasted in your campaign against the forum rules). I don't see anywhere in that post where you have stated any reasons why your ban should be lifted.
Here are your options as I see them:
1. Agree to abide by the forum rules as they currently stand and any future changes that may occur (changes only occur out of necessity by the way) and accept current and future moderators interpretation of them (ie. the people who wrote the charter).
2. Don't.0 -
I had this reply written before your last reply DD, but as a few others had posted I didn't want to seem like we were all posting at once. I feel I may as well post up what I was going to say just to give my input.Irrespective of how the matter is dealt with none of us would be here if my immediate apology, following the yellow card, had been accepted & the Feedback thread not seen as challenging the Mods.
I would like to address this point -- nowhere did anyone state your apology wasn't accepted. I am very busy during the day and honestly didn't really have the time to reply, given a reply wasn't particularly required.
Obviously I appreciated your acknowledgement of my warning post, however I was very disappointed to see a Feedback thread questioning what I'd stated on thread. You say it wasn't regarding A&PI, nor the infraction you received because you didn't mention either. The thread in feedback was only started because of my post, you sought others input and clarification. On it's own, as a once off it might not have caused any notice, but it's not the first time you've questioned what you've been told by a moderator.
As you linked to yourself above, another feedback thread where you were questioning the etiquette when quoting - the discussion of 'quoting out of context' came up and others said that if you're quoting for your own gain or to take a swipe at someone, it's not on.
So really you should have known that quoting from another forum to throw at a poster wasn't on. Yet when infracted for doing exactly that you then said you didn't realise quoting from another forum wasn't allowed.
As HR pointed out, you push the envelope, just enough to stay under the radar of receiving infractions or bans, but that does get tiresome. Questioning what a moderator has told you, is as g'em said before, a form of passive-aggression, when you do it in the manner you do it in.
To make a thread / threads seemingly innocent to query what you've been told by a moderator, without directly stating it's about a moderator or what forum it's in is a way of non-direct poking at the moderators or forum.
I'm not going to start quoting parts from other forums on Boards but I recall seeing posts that questioned the general moderating of the A&PI forum.
You've always stated that I've been fair to you, and I think I have been.
I feel it's unfair to constantly question our rules and moderation, it's a tough forum to moderate and as HR said, you've no idea of what goes on from the other side. You've not had to deal with legal / libel threats, phone calls from irate people, emails/PMs from various users or companies (incl. rescues etc.).
I don't like that we have to be so strict in the A&PI forum, but it's a result of both users and viewers that have caused it to be so. As moderators we volunteer our time and effort, and we can only do what we can within the limitations of any rulings passed down to us. We put up with a *lot* of stick and I've had lots of personal abuse because of it.
The fact that we have engaged with you on many many occasions, gone out of our way to explain things to you in lengthy PMs (I don't mean me specifically) when we are far from obliged to, I would have hoped would have given you reason to give us some respect.
I agree with HR that you are incredibly knowledgeable and generally very useful in the forum. But that does not give us reason to treat you any differently. It will be a loss to the forum, but you were asked before (by higher ups than us) to stop questioning moderating on a consistent basis and your continue to do so has resulted in this.0 -
You are completely wrong here on so many levels.The ban was for being a time sink ie wasting mods,cmods and admins time with your constant questioning of the rules.
If I appear to be singling you out it is because you are the constant. You have been around a long time & have repeatedly discussed the forum at the highest level. I am sure that the Admins took account of your advice & it is clear to everyone that API is your baby to do with as you see fit.
I accepted the rules, you refused to acknowledge this & used a feedback thread to implement an unnecessary ban. If your time is at such a premium why did you intervene & not just leave the thread alone ? This is a common theme in the forum where the Mods complain about their time being taken up but then intervene on, what seems like, a constant basis. If you want to free up time then don’t have so many unnecessary rules & don’t be so keen to intervene.Anyone can do a search of this and feedback and see your constant slating of the mods/forum in general.
It is not constant & any criticism has been made in the appropriate forums.Personally I can take any criticism anyone can throw at me--Its not like Im getting paid for this and criticism goes completely over my head.
Exactly ! It does go over your head & you ignore it, which is why the forum never changes. You refuse to listen, it is your way or no way. Take a look at the other Feedback threads, for example the one in the Soccer forum. Not only are the Mods happy to have a poll but they are willing to listen to the views of the forum members. In contrast the API How's our Driving thread was closed & deleted. A forum is the members not the Mods.Hang on a minute here--Ive personally explained rules changes to you via pm,on thread etc.You take what you want out if those explanations and then complain when it doesnt suit you.
When you describe the rescue community in such offensive & derisory terms, as you have even done in this thread, it is natural to assume that your rules are born of prejudice. If your explanations make no sense then I reserve the right to question them in the appropriate way. For examples banning the naming of rescues for legal reasons in API but allowing their naming elsewhere on Boards is pointless.Ok lets see how many other complaints I have had regarding the rules--ehhhh-None.Not a single complaint from any other user of the forum.Oh sorry a few pm`s asking for your ban to be lifted.
People are genuinely scared to speak out because of the way that you react. Every time that people complain they get banned or their disagreement is noted for later. I am very surprised that anyone would PM you on my behalf as they are taking a risk. Many prefer to email as they simple don’t trust PM’s - that is how bad things have become. Posters also see that any dissent is stamped on by the CMods & Admins. There was even a recent example where a CMod increased an API punishment on appeal.I couldnt care less whats mentioned in other fora.I look after Animals and Pets.If an admin tells me theyve received x number of legal threats in one weekend and that a certain discussion has to stop then thats it and you as a user if the forum has to take that as gospel wheter you disagree with it or not.
With respect there is a difference between "taking something as gospel" & disagreeing with it. We all accept decisions when they occur. What you are questioning is the right to question the forum rules & their implementation in the appropriate way. You refuse to believe my assurance regarding the Feedback thread that I started yet you expect me to always believe you when you own comments show that you have scant regard for rescues.Actually the soap boxing rule was brought in for another reason and another user--Its not all about you,you know.But if you broke that rule after it was implemented then thats your fault and no one elses.
One minute you claim that I am the only one complaining then you introduce rules for a specific poster . Soapboxing is defined, it is a specific offence. It shouldn't be misused to infract people when you can't think of a better reason.Yes you do.You start feedback threads for "information" purposes after a warning etc and use it as a method to question mod decisions.
No. If I want to question a Moderator decision I post in the Dispute Resolution Forum. If I have a general question, where I want to solicit the views of other users, I use Feedback. You & AJ are the only Mods that have deliberately hijacked Feedback threads started by me. No one else has perceived my Feedback threads as criticism.Wrong again-Get your facts right in future.That user wasnt banned for discussing greyhound racing but for starting a second thread after being warned about the first one trying to get people to boycott an event.
You changed the rules without telling anyone & that is a fact.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »I've skimmed through your post above because frankly, I don't have the time for this (and time is the number one issue here as in how much of other peoples lives you have wasted in your campaign against the forum rules). I don't see anywhere in that post where you have stated any reasons why your ban should be lifted.
Here are your options as I see them:
1. Agree to abide by the forum rules as they currently stand and any future changes that may occur (changes only occur out of necessity by the way) and accept current and future moderators interpretation of them (ie. the people who wrote the charter).
2. Don't.
If time is such an issue then why introduce rules that require almost constant intervention. You comment regarding “wasting lives” is typical of the extreme way that you Moderate & even post on some occasions. You seem to have enough time to hijack a previous Feedback thread & post a long reply regarding a matter that didn’t concern you. You set the tone for your Moderation when I PM’d you to congratulate you on becoming a Mod. I mentioned another previous API Moderator, whom everyone in the forum would regard as excellent. I said that their moderation style was a great example for a new Mod. You replied that you would Mod how you saw fit & wouldn’t be taking advice.
Your “options” forget a key factor. An API Mod can ban any user for any reason without any fear of their decision being questioned from above. So if you are determined to remove a poster you will do so.star-pants wrote: »I would like to address this point -- nowhere did anyone state your apology wasn't accepted. I am very busy during the day and honestly didn't really have the time to reply, given a reply wasn't particularly required.
If the apology had been accepted then no one should of taken exception to the Feedback thread. What is the problem with asking a general Feedback question ?. Both of the threads you mention refer to the use of quotes & opinions differ - there is no defined Boards procedure. Users are bound to raise a Feedback thread after an issue has arisen & not months later. It should be against the rules for a Mod to intervene & use Feedback as an excuse to ban. It is logical that if I am only ever infracted in API, despite more than 50% of my posts being outside API, that some Feedback threads refer to decisions made in the API forum.
Instead of leaping in to defend themselves why can't the API Mods ever contribute to the Feedback threads in a constructive way as did all the other Mods that posted in them ? Why are API Mods so afraid of being wrong ? I see countless threads where a Mod admits that they were wrong & they apologise. It is sign of strength not weakness & they gain great respect from the Boards community.star-pants wrote: »To make a thread / threads seemingly innocent to query what you've been told by a moderator, without directly stating it's about a moderator or what forum it's in is a way of non-direct poking at the moderators or forum.
But that is the purpose of Feedback. If any Boards user states that they are not questioning a Mod decision then that should be taken at face value. We don't call each other liars on Boards. All Charters & Moderation should be up for discussion without fear nor favour provided it is conducted in the appropriate place & manner.star-pants wrote: »You've always stated that I've been fair to you, and I think I have been.
I feel it's unfair to constantly question our rules and moderation, it's a tough forum to moderate and as HR said, you've no idea of what goes on from the other side. You've not had to deal with legal / libel threats, phone calls from irate people, emails/PMs from various users or companies (incl. rescues etc.)
It is bound to be tough to moderate if you have a stack of rules & a zealous interpretation of them. What makes it worse is that the constructive views of members, as to how to improve the situation, are ignored & dismissed. There is more than one way to operate an API forum. It doesn't have to be like this but only one option gets put forward so the forum gets more strict & more users end up being infracted which takes up more Mod time. It is self perpetuating especially as those responsible are so biased & set in their ways.star-pants wrote: »I don't like that we have to be so strict in the A&PI forum, but it's a result of both users and viewers that have caused it to be so. As moderators we volunteer our time and effort, and we can only do what we can within the limitations of any rulings passed down to us. We put up with a *lot* of stick and I've had lots of personal abuse because of it.
I hope that you will clarify that you have never received any abuse from me.
Rulings get passed down but I am sure that the Admins would welcome your input as to how the problems can be avoided. You are perceptive enough to know that people tend to react to the way that they are treated. They have an innate sense of fairness & feel aggrieved when rules are applied in an unfair or biased manner. For example when HR & AJ post, in relation to rescues, their comments are often very derisory. If two Moderators express a low personal opinion of the Welfare Community then it is reasonable to see their moderation as biased. This didn't apply to Seamus when he modded the forum & his decisions were seen as fair.
I reiterate that API could be a very different place & that there are other alternatives. It is a pity that all those involved can’t be more open to differing opinions. Boards got where it is by listening, not dictating. The sad fact is that for things to change there would be have to be an element of questioning whether the right decisions were made in the past & that will never happen. API won't change because I am not around.0 -
Take a look at the other Feedback threads, for example the one in the Soccer forum. Not only are the Mods happy to have a poll but they are willing to listen to the views of the forum members. In contrast the API How's our Driving thread was closed & deleted. A forum is the members not the Mods.
The 'How's our Driving Thread' to the best of my knowledge was started and closed by someone who no longer moderates the forum. That mod went through that thread post by post took out of it what he felt were good ideas and those were all implemented to the best of the mods ability. I have to point out here that it was clearly stated that it was to be one post per user. A good chunk of that thread were posts made by you (you are only one person with one persons view) there was also a number of posts that were actually complaints about you.When you describe the rescue community in such offensive & derisory terms, as you have even done in this thread, it is natural to assume that your rules are born of prejudice. If your explanations make no sense then I reserve the right to question them in the appropriate way. For examples banning the naming of rescues for legal reasons in API but allowing their naming elsewhere on Boards is pointless.
Several attempts have been made to find some way of making some description of exception for posters of good standing on the forum who are involved in rescues, this has arise due to certain posts being reported that mods did not feel would cause any problems, now the reaction to these posts being moderated by some of the posters involved have been less than favourable and in all honesty that has left us with our hands tied on that front. Also there is already a system in place that allows posters to represent their organisations on Boards. It's the site wide policy so why should one forum be the exception? I have pointed quite a few posters in the direction of the verified rep avenue, I haven't heard anything back about any of them. That 'process' is beyond the remit of forum mods, it's between them and site's employees. I have no idea if any of them even followed it up.There was even a recent example where a CMod increased an API punishment on appeal.
Are you honestly going to tell us you disagree with that decision given that that person was an out and out Troll. Should Trolls have the right to troll? :rolleyes:No. If I want to question a Moderator decision I post in the Dispute Resolution Forum. If I have a general question, where I want to solicit the views of other users, I use Feedback. You & AJ are the only Mods that have deliberately hijacked Feedback threads started by me. No one else has perceived my Feedback threads as criticism.
On multiple occasions you have purposely started feedback threads as an underhand method of trying to wind up forum mods. Since you have so much of your opinion to share, why is it that you have never sent mods a PM stating you are starting a thread in feedback as you would like to discuss the forum rules? Why hasn't anyone else? You claim they don't do so out 'fear' of the repercussions, I would take a good guess that actually the reason no-one else has done so because of scaremongering by you and being informed with your badly misconstrued version of events.If time is such an issue then why introduce rules that require almost constant intervention.
As already stated there really is no other option, my best guess as to what would happen if the rules weren't put in place and weren't constantly enforced? - no Animals & Pets forum.You comment regarding “wasting lives” is typical of the extreme way that you Moderate & even post on some occasions.
If you are going to post hysterical comments like that, you are going to have to provide some links to examples of 'extreme' moderating, this is yet another example of the scaremongering of the posters in the forum by you. The contents of any posts I make that are not of a moderating nature are of no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.You seem to have enough time to hijack a previous Feedback thread & post a long reply regarding a matter that didn’t concern you. You set the tone for your Moderation when I PM’d you to congratulate you on becoming a Mod. I mentioned another previous API Moderator, whom everyone in the forum would regard as excellent. I said that their moderation style was a great example for a new Mod. You replied that you would Mod how you saw fit & wouldn’t be taking advice.
That's a very creative interpretation of the exchange that took place at time. I remember it somewhat differently:
I have no PM in my inbox that's contains anything that could remotely be construed as 'Congratulation'. I have a PM in which you have quoted a post I made on a thread, then gave your differing opinion on the matter. Then you 'advise' me that moderating a thread at 2am is bad idea. Then you proceeded to 'out' a relatively new poster (a professional and highly respected member of the rescue community no less) and accuse them of sarcastic replies to your posts. Two days after that you sent me a PM accusing me of biased moderating re: the selective quoting debacle which incidentally was in relation to an obvious troll on a thread in the forum. You mentioned two other moderators by the way one of which you referred to in derogatory terms. You sent that message twice, 20 minutes apart, did I not reply promptly enough for you? Obviously my reply was not satisfactory enough for you, because you then started the Feedback thread, which was brought to my attention by a third party. Now I still have all those PM's so if I can have your permission to do so I will post that exchange here in it's entirety.Your “options” forget a key factor. An API Mod can ban any user for any reason without any fear of their decision being questioned from above. So if you are determined to remove a poster you will do so.
The purpose of this thread was to decide if your ban can be lifted. This comment makes absolutely no sense given the point of the thread. You've just taken another shot at throwing some more hysterics and scaremongering around. It's also a ridiculous statement, for some reason some people have a tendency to post in a manner in A&PI that they would not dream of in any other Boards forum. A hell of a lot of leeway is given to a lot of people in the forum. Personally I will not ban anyone if there is not a rock solid reason to do so.It is logical that if I am only ever infracted in API, despite more than 50% of my posts being outside API, that some Feedback threads refer to decisions made in the API forum.
Again, the appropriate manner to do this is to inform the relevant mods what you are doing, instead of using underhand tactics, pretending you are doing something else and completely denying that your posts have anything to do with a mod you have just had an exchange with on the matter. This applies to all forums by the way.
The biased BS gets a bit tiresome tbh. I can say without any hesitation whatsoever that any moderation on my part is completely impartial. Now, you have started a little campaign with this biased nonsense that appears to be contagious. I take it and will continue to do so as the highest possible personal insult to my core morals and upbringing. I've used this term before in this post 'out and out Troll', you have taken this term to the highest extreme, you have spread hysteria and contention throughout the forum and constantly attempt to discredit forum mods past and present.There is more than one way to operate an API forum. It doesn't have to be like this but only one option gets put forward so the forum gets more strict & more users end up being infracted which takes up more Mod time. It is self perpetuating especially as those responsible are so biased & set in their ways.I reiterate that API could be a very different place & that there are other alternatives. It is a pity that all those involved can’t be more open to differing opinions. Boards got where it is by listening, not dictating. The sad fact is that for things to change there would be have to be an element of questioning whether the right decisions were made in the past & that will never happen. API won't change because I am not around.
The animals forum here is the only Irish animals forum I will contribute to, whether I am a mod in it or not. It's the only one that people actually post in because they need advice. My personal experiences have taught me that posting in many other forums asking for advise in something as simple as where to find a reputable breeder gets you a permanent ban. There are enough forums out there that for people to go to if they want to be bullied off it, there is no place for another one. The forum here is a general animals forum, it isn't a court of animal rights.
All you have done here is portray yourself as being a completely unreasonable, volatile and unrelenting individual. You were given this opportunity to appeal your ban, but all you have done is use it as yet another excuse to attempt to defame the forum and it's mods. Do you really think we are all here for a outlet to boost our egos or promote personal bias? I can guarantee you that the reason I am currently putting the time into clearing this up just hours after having one of my rescue ponies put to sleep is because I care about what happens to the people who come to the forum for advice and about the animals or potential animals they are asking for that advice on.
I have little more to say on the matter and you have not put forward anything resembling a reason as why your ban should be lifted, perhaps because there isn't one. So I don't see what else I can do for you here.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 10089
If I appear to be singling you out it is because you are the constant.
You have been around a long time & have repeatedly discussed the forum at the highest level. I am sure that the Admins took account of your advice & it is clear to everyone that API is your baby to do with as you see fit.
Doesnt work like that,.If theres an issue the cmods/admins let us know and we deal with it.I accepted the rules, you refused to acknowledge this & used a feedback thread to implement an unnecessary ban. If your time is at such a premium why did you intervene & not just leave the thread alone ? This is a common theme in the forum where the Mods complain about their time being taken up but then intervene on, what seems like, a constant basis. If you want to free up time then don’t have so many unnecessary rules & don’t be so keen to intervene.
No you havent accepted the rules.You never have and in my opinion you never will.You constantly question them.It is not constant & any criticism has been made in the appropriate forums.
Cmon you even make sly references to the rules in an AH thread.
Pot and kettle there to be honest.You refuse to listen, it is your way or no way.
And we listened and implemented some of teh recommendations.Not only are the Mods happy to have a poll but they are willing to listen to the views of the forum members.
Closed after it ran its course.In contrast the API How's our Driving thread was closed & deleted.
I agree but there has to be rules in place otherwise its a free for all.A forum is the members not the Mods.When you describe the rescue community in such offensive & derisory terms, as you have even done in this thread, it is natural to assume that your rules are born of prejudice.
I dont have an prejudice against rescues-the majority of them do a great job.Their behaviour on a forum however could be debated.For examples banning the naming of rescues for legal reasons in API but allowing their naming elsewhere on Boards is pointless.
Ive explained that already and once again you go back to the same argument.Time to move on on that one.We`re going around in circles.People are genuinely scared to speak out because of the way that you react. Every time that people complain they get banned or their disagreement is noted for later.
Not true--I very rarely ban anyone unless I have a genuine reason to do so and complaining isnt one of them.
That user was happy with my explanation and honestly Id never hold it against anyone for trying to stick up for anyone.I am very surprised that anyone would PM you on my behalf as they are taking a risk.Posters also see that any dissent is stamped on by the CMods & Admins.
That in my opinion is way out of line..bringing the cmods and admins into it.
Come on that was well deserved.There was even a recent example where a CMod increased an API punishment on appeal.With respect there is a difference between "taking something as gospel" & disagreeing with it.
Your misquoting me now.I was trying (again) to explain that sometimes we get orders from above and have to carry them out and users need to take our word on it.
No most users accaet decisions when they occur.You dont.We all accept decisions when they occur.
Where have I done that.I wouldnt bother posting in this thread if I didnt believe in the feedback process.What you are questioning is the right to question the forum rules & their implementation in the appropriate way.You refuse to believe my assurance regarding the Feedback thread that I started yet you expect me to always believe you when you own comments show that you have scant regard for rescues.
What my comments about rescues have to do with that sentence has me baffled.But Ill answer the other part.If your feedback thread was a once off thread then yep it would have been left but it was a combination of a few times that got us here.
Again quoting out of context.I ve also explained this already.One minute you claim that I am the only one complaining then you introduce rules for a specific poster .
And its not.Anyone infracted under that rule has already been warned on multiple occasions before hand.Soapboxing is defined, it is a specific offence. It shouldn't be misused to infract people when you can't think of a better reason.You & AJ are the only Mods that have deliberately hijacked Feedback threads started by me. No one else has perceived my Feedback threads as criticism.
Except the cmods and admins!!You changed the rules without telling anyone & that is a fact.
No I didnt--You questioned why the date had changed on the rules thread and it was explained to you in detail.Once again you refused to accept a mods explanation.Your “options” forget a key factor. An API Mod can ban any user for any reason without any fear of their decision being questioned from above. So if you are determined to remove a poster you will do so.
Youre wrong again.Your conspiracy theories are just going way over the top now.And again this post has shown that you are still unwilling to listen to reason.
This thread is regarding your ban being lifted and so far Ive seen no reason to make that happen.
Lets get down to facts here.
1.You are a constant time sink for the mods of the forum.
2.You continually question moderating decisions.
3.Even when these are explained in detail which no other users request you still question them.
4.You use the feedback forum under the guise of seeking "information" to voice you disapproval with either an on thread warnings,infraction etc.
Now how do we move on from that?
The only way I can see it happening is if you stop questioning decisions that we make.By all means pop us a pm to ask why the decision was made but if we then explain the reasons for it in detail-You need to accept those reasons and not run to feedback/helpdesk to voice your disapproval of that reason.
And with that I also have no more to say on this matter.The issue is you not us.0 -
adrenalinjunkie wrote: »The 'How's our Driving Thread' to the best of my knowledge was started and closed by someone who no longer moderates the forum. I have to point out here that it was clearly stated that it was to be one post per user. A good chunk of that thread were posts made by you (you are only one person with one persons view) there was also a number of posts that were actually complaints about you.
Your recollection is different to mine. I do not recall any one post per poster rule & I believe that the thread was closed by a CMod. I cannot recall any significant changes that resulted from the thread.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Several attempts have been made to find some way of making some description of exception for posters of good standing on the forum who are involved in rescues, this has arise due to certain posts being reported that mods did not feel would cause any problems, now the reaction to these posts being moderated by some of the posters involved have been less than favourable and in all honesty that has left us with our hands tied on that front. Also there is already a system in place that allows posters to represent their organisations on Boards. It's the site wide policy so why should one forum be the exception? I have pointed quite a few posters in the direction of the verified rep avenue, I haven't heard anything back about any of them. That 'process' is beyond the remit of forum mods, it's between them and site's employees. I have no idea if any of them even followed it up.
If the Mods don’t see a problem with a post that is reported then ignore it. The reason that no charitable organisation takes up Verified status is because Boards charge for the privilege. This is a totally different issue from the naming of rescues.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Are you honestly going to tell us you disagree with that decision given that that person was an out and out Troll. Should Trolls have the right to troll?
Everyone should have the right to appeal or question a decision without fear of further punishment. It sends out a warning not to appeal. It also undermines the original moderators decision.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »On multiple occasions you have purposely started feedback threads as an underhand method of trying to wind up forum mods. Since you have so much of your opinion to share, why is it that you have never sent mods a PM stating you are starting a thread in feedback as you would like to discuss the forum rules? Why hasn't anyone else? You claim they don't do so out 'fear' of the repercussions, I would take a good guess that actually the reason no-one else has done so because of scaremongering by you and being informed with your badly misconstrued version of events.
As you well know I PM'd you when you issued your first infraction against me. Your reply made it totally clear that you had no intention of discussing the matter. How am I scaremongering ? People can see the moderation for themselves. You initially issued a lot of sanctions & some regular posters were infracted for the first time. It appeared that you were setting out a marker. If I had PM'd you or any other API Mod that I was starting a feedback thread & stressed that it was not a criticism of you, you wouldn't of believed me. I have never seen any indication that you are open to any discussion whatsoever.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »As already stated there really is no other option, my best guess as to what would happen if the rules weren't put in place and weren't constantly enforced? - no Animals & Pets forum.
I would imagine that all that Boards are concerned about is that a forum shouldn't cause grief & I suspect that they are happy to leave alone unless there are reasons to intervene. I am sure that they rely on feedback & suggestions from the moderators especially from those that have been moderating the forum for many years. I would be surprised if Boards weren't open to positive suggestions.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »If you are going to post hysterical comments like that, you are going to have to provide some links to examples of 'extreme' moderating, this is yet another example of the scaremongering of the posters in the forum by you. The contents of any posts I make that are not of a moderating nature are of no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.
They are highly relevant. Any Mod is welcome to post but if they express a view as a poster it shouldn't influence their moderation. As you know I am banned from the forum so quoting is not easy. I don't understand your phrase "the scaremongering of the posters in the forum". If posters are scared to complain it might be because they see what happens to those who do.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »You've just taken another shot at throwing some more hysterics and scaremongering around. It's also a ridiculous statement, for some reason some people have a tendency to post in a manner in A&PI that they would not dream of in any other Boards forum. A hell of a lot of leeway is given to a lot of people in the forum. Personally I will not ban anyone if there is not a rock solid reason to do so.
I would disagree. I post all over Boards & API is the only forum where one has to be guarded. I am not resorting to scaremongering & hysterics. I am stating a fact reinforced by you when you reminded me of your "Moderator discretion" that basically allows you to do as you please.
The only Mods that have ever had or expressed an issue with Feedback threads have been the API Mods. No one else has ever viewed such threads as criticism. I speak out more in support of Mods that against them & I reiterate that the vast majority do a brilliant job.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Now, you have started a little campaign with this biased nonsense that appears to be contagious. I take it and will continue to do so as the highest possible personal insult to my core morals and upbringing. I've used this term before in this post 'out and out Troll', you have taken this term to the highest extreme, you have spread hysteria and contention throughout the forum and constantly attempt to discredit forum mods past and present.
You seem to be obsessed with hysteria. Hellrazer claims that I the only "troublemaker" yet you are saying that the disquiet is contagious. So are all these other poster blindly following me or do they actual agree with me ? I have never criticised Seamus, who is not only a superb Moderator but also clearly a gentleman, & I have not criticised Starpants - in her words I said that I thought her moderation to be fair. So I have only commented on two out of four API Mods. If you consider me to be an “an out & out Troll” then why have I never been infracted for Trolling by any Boards Mod ?adrenalinjunkie wrote: »There are enough forums out there that for people to go to if they want to be bullied off it, there is no place for another one. The forum here is a general animals forum, it isn't a court of animal rights.
Maybe many of the knowledgeable regulars that used to post in API have been "bullied off" by the rules & moderation ? No one is referring to Animal Rights but the forum shouldn't exclude Animal Welfare as it is a fundamental issue. You have stated that Humanities is the right place for these issues rather than API - I disagree.adrenalinjunkie wrote: »All you have done here is portray yourself as being a completely unreasonable, volatile and unrelenting individual. You were given this opportunity to appeal your ban, but all you have done is use it as yet another excuse to attempt to defame the forum and it's mods. Do you really think we are all here for a outlet to boost our egos or promote personal bias? I can guarantee you that the reason I am currently putting the time into clearing this up just hours after having one of my rescue ponies put to sleep is because I care about what happens to the people who come to the forum for advice and about the animals or potential animals they are asking for that advice on.
I have little more to say on the matter and you have not put forward anything resembling a reason as why your ban should be lifted, perhaps because there isn't one. So I don't see what else I can do for you here.
I think that I have always conducted myself in a very polite & reasonable manner. Yes I might seem a little unrelenting but is it a bad thing to try & rectify something that you perceive to be fundamentally wrong ? If you care about the advice given to posters then you would be concerned that so many knowledgeable posters have left & you would be anxious to know why so that the situation could be rectified. You can hardly blame me or anyone else for having some doubts when you post a thread like this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73936629
The only reason that I believe that my ban should be lifted is that it was wrongly applied in the first place. Now there is no way that an Admin is going to lift a ban & even if they did I doubt if it would be long before another excuse was found to remove me. Your talk of my hysteria, scaremongering etc is so extreme that I cannot see any likelihood that your attitude towards me will change.Doesnt work like that,.If theres an issue the cmods/admins let us know and we deal with it.
Exactly so it is up to you how you deal with the problem. If the problem stops then the Admins have no further concern. However if the problems continue, as they appear to have done for years, then the Admins lose patience. We are talking about an internet forum not a Middle East peace agreement.No you havent accepted the rules.You never have and in my opinion you never will.You constantly question them.
I abide by them & I stated, in a PM to g'em, that I would continue to abide by them. Accepting the rules, as in agreeing with them, is a totally different matter. Boards was, to a point, founded on the principle of constructive comment. We should always be open to new ways of doing things & comment should be encouraged not punished.Cmon you even make sly references to the rules in an AH thread.
& you've never posted in AH ? Everyone made comments about Mods - you are the only one who took it to heart. One minute you claim to not give a damn about criticism & the next you act as if you are hurt by such remarks.I dont have an prejudice against rescues-the majority of them do a great job.Their behaviour on a forum however could be debated.
I will leave anyone reading this to make up their own mind. You have made plenty of derisory remarks regarding the welfare community.That in my opinion is way out of line..bringing the cmods and admins into it.
Why ? An Admin has banned me & you keep telling us that the rules that we disagree with have been imposed from on high. You also have requested that the CMods contact me. If you are willing to discuss matter then why get others involved ?
The impression that I am getting is that the API Mods don't like issues being aired on public forums.Youre wrong again.Your conspiracy theories are just going way over the top now.And again this post has shown that you are still unwilling to listen to reason.
The facts are that any Moderator can ban a poster for any reason because the Moderator is given personal discretion. You will find very few cases of where the Moderator's decision is overturned. In my case the input from the Cmods/Admins has made it clear that they will support the API Mods in every situation.
So if I returned to the forum I would be relying on the personal discretion of Moderators who have already expressed a pretty dim view of my presence on the forum - I wouldn't last a week !
But also I would be contributing to something that I fundamentally disagree with which is unfairness. I would be running a serious risk that the Admins would use my next ban as a reason for even more extreme sanctions. Apart from API I have a pretty blemish free history on Boards so maybe the issue is you & not me. If I continue on Boards for another few year I doubt if I will incur a single infraction.
The way that this has been handled has seriously dented any belief that Boards operates in a fair manner. I seriously considered leaving but it seems wrong to tar so many with a brush that only applies to a very few.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 10089
Exactly so it is up to you how you deal with the problem. If the problem stops then the Admins have no further concern. However if the problems continue, as they appear to have done for years, then the Admins lose patience. We are talking about an internet forum not a Middle East peace agreement.
You can talk--If its not like the middle east and only an internet forum then why are you getting your knickers in a twist.I abide by them & I stated, in a PM to g'em, that I would continue to abide by them. Accepting the rules, as in agreeing with them, is a totally different matter.
But you havent--Thats why we`re here now.Boards was, to a point, founded on the principle of constructive comment. We should always be open to new ways of doing things & comment should be encouraged not punished.
You have this all wrong--Boards is built on constructive comment.Its not however built on pacifiying one single user who just cant stop complaining about the rules of a forum that they post in.& you've never posted in AH ? Everyone made comments about Mods - you are the only one who took it to heart. One minute you claim to not give a damn about criticism & the next you act as if you are hurt by such remarks.
The thread was entitled "Hardest forum to moderate" and you used it as an excuse to get stuck into the rules again.
And yeah I have posted in AH--My cat recipe went down a treat.I will leave anyone reading this to make up their own mind. You have made plenty of derisory remarks regarding the welfare community.
Yeah I think we will because this ^^^^ has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.Its not about my views--Its about you being banned.So can we keep it on the subject at hand??Why ? An Admin has banned me & you keep telling us that the rules that we disagree with have been imposed from on high. You also have requested that the CMods contact me. If you are willing to discuss matter then why get others involved ?
I never said the rules were imposed on high--I said that sometimes we`re directed by cmods/admins to put a stop to some issues that may have a bearing on boards as a whole.
As for the rules-before a rule is implemented we as a group of mods discuss it in a private forum and only after a discussion takes place is that rule put in.So once again you are quoting me out of context.
You were way out of line with this commentPosters also see that any dissent is stamped on by the CMods & Admins.
Dissent??^^^This isnt the army and we dont shoot dissenters.The impression that I am getting is that the API Mods don't like issues being aired on public forums.
Ok again I cant understand where youre getting this from.Im replying to your posts as have the other mods.If they werent replying Id be more worried about that statement being true.The facts are that any Moderator can ban a poster for any reason because the Moderator is given personal discretion.
Wrong again.If a mod was caught banning someone for personal reasons then they`d be demodded quite quickly.You will find very few cases of where the Moderator's decision is overturned.
I suggest that you read the drp forum again--There are numerous cases of a mods decision being overturned.In my case the input from the Cmods/Admins has made it clear that they will support the API Mods in every situation.
I dont see that anywhere.Once agin we`re going down the road of conspiracy theory.Only one cmod (Gem) has posted in this thread and her last line reads
That doesnt sound like Gem is supporting anyone but is being neutral in the whole issue especially considering that it was Gem that issued the ban.You need to stop being so dramatic to be honest.The perma-ban may or may not be lifted depending on whether Discodog and the Mods can come to a mutual resolution.So if I returned to the forum I would be relying on the personal discretion of Moderators who have already expressed a pretty dim view of my presence on the forum - I wouldn't last a week !
No you wouldnt--you`d be relying on yourself not to break the rules.Thats all it comes down to.Again you and not the mods is where the problem lies.But also I would be contributing to something that I fundamentally disagree with which is unfairness. I would be running a serious risk that the Admins would use my next ban as a reason for even more extreme sanctions. Apart from API I have a pretty blemish free history on Boards so maybe the issue is you & not me. If I continue on Boards for another few year I doubt if I will incur a single infraction.
Again youre going on like everyone has it in for you.They dont!!!The admins have more to worry about than one poster who cant see the wood for the trees so to speak.The way that this has been handled has seriously dented any belief that Boards operates in a fair manner. I seriously considered leaving but it seems wrong to tar so many with a brush that only applies to a very few.
If it wasnt fair--you`d have been banned and no more said of the issue.This thread wouldnt be here if there wasnt any fairness to the whole issue.This has been completely fair the way its been handled.0 -
You can talk--If its not like the middle east and only an internet forum then why are you getting your knickers in a twist.
I am not. The point is that if you have problems with a forum & in the words of the Mods it is hard to moderate, then maybe there is a better alternative than just using a bigger stick.But you havent--Thats why we`re here now.
I will never accept that, by starting a thread in Feedback, I broke any rules. I am being punished because of the way that an Admin chose to interpret my post. I apologised & made it categorically clear that I was not questioning a Mod decision but the Admin refused to believe me. Whatever reputation I may have on Boards I am not known for lying.You have this all wrong--Boards is built on constructive comment.Its not however built on pacifiying one single user who just cant stop complaining about the rules of a forum that they post in.
You know very well that it's not just me. The forum constantly generates problems. It did so long before I arrived & it will continue to do so now I have gone.The thread was entitled "Hardest forum to moderate" and you used it as an excuse to get stuck into the rules again.
And yeah I have posted in AH--My cat recipe went down a treat.
Firstly API was mentioned in the thread before I posted - have you complained to that poster ? You cannot ban people from discussing moderation - if so you are going to have to ban half of Boards !
I do find it strange that an API Mod would find humour in posting such an item. It would clearly be very offensive & upsetting to many API users. If the Moderator thinks that cooking a cat is funny then it is not unreasonable for posters in API to have dim view of that Moderator. But it also raises the question of why would you deliberately offend ?
You will defend your actions by saying that AH is a different forum with different rules but then you complain about me posting in AH. By coincidence it also goes to the heart of my ban in that a yellow card was issued for cross quoting. I would argue that, if for example a user posted a thread in support of shooting cats in one forum & then posted in support of cats in another forum, that their hypocrisy can be highlighted. This type of cross quoting happens every day on Boards without any issue.Yeah I think we will because this ^^^^ has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.Its not about my views--Its about you being banned.So can we keep it on the subject at hand??.
Of course it is about your views if you allow those views to influence your moderation & it would very difficult not to. You are also saying that you are open to discussion but that you want to dictate the terms & subject matter.I never said the rules were imposed on high--I said that sometimes we`re directed by cmods/admins to put a stop to some issues that may have a bearing on boards as a whole.
There is usually more than one way of solving a problem.As for the rules-before a rule is implemented we as a group of mods discuss it in a private forum and only after a discussion takes place is that rule put in.So once again you are quoting me out of context.
The issue of everything being discussed "in Private" is a regular source of suspicion & there are many threads that refer to it. Also the "your name keeps coming up in the secret moderators forum" argument is viewed the same way. Neither can be challenged so they are bound to cause dissent.
I suspect that the vast majority of API posters would want to trust that their Mods are defending the values & compassion of the forum during any discussions. And that the Mods are doing their best to come up with alternative solutions other than stricter rules. This becomes harder to believe when the Moderators sometimes post in an insensitive & offensive manner.You were way out of line with this comment
Dissent??^^^This isnt the army and we dont shoot dissenters.
I am not “out of line” if, as you claim, Boards welcomes polite discussion. Maybe you are confusing dissent with desertion. There is plenty of desertion in that many former API regulars no longer post.
I haven't the time or the inclination to do it but I bet that an analysis of the Dispute Resolution forum would find that the CMods/Admins back the Mod in the vast majority of cases. Because the threads are stamped as “Resolved” doesn’t mean that both parties are happy with the decision. I do recall a thread asking if Mods were ever Demodded. As one would expect there were the usual Boards corporate posts but one poster asked for an example. The only one given was of a well know & excellent Boxing Mod who was Demodded because he built up infractions in other forums & not because of his own moderation.
We all accept that Boards will not publicly Demod a volunteer & I am sure that some of us feel that whether a Mod gets sanctioned may depend on other factors. During the early days of Boards a lot of friendships must of been made & it could be extremely difficult for one friend to Demod or ban another.Ok again I cant understand where youre getting this from.Im replying to your posts as have the other mods.If they werent replying Id be more worried about that statement being true.
Nowhere in the Feedback Charter/Guidelines does it mention that one should PM the Mod first - that only applies to Dispute Resolution. Yet the API Mods are of the view that one should PM them before starting a Feedback thread even though the thread isn't about them & has nothing to do with them. This almost suggests that they want to be forewarned & be primed to intervene.Wrong again.If a mod was caught banning someone for personal reasons then they`d be demodded quite quickly. I suggest that you read the drp forum again--There are numerous cases of a mods decision being overturned.
Can you give me a couple of incidences where your decisions or those of other API Mods, have been overturned ? I assume that you will argue that they haven't because API Mods never get it wrong. How could you prove that you were banned for personal reasons - it would be impossible ?I dont see that anywhere.Once agin we`re going down the road of conspiracy theory.Only one cmod (Gem) has posted in this thread and her last line reads
As you well know I have had discussions with several CMods & Admins, by the way g'em is an Admin, in my attempts to try & discuss the problems with API. I can categorically state that no CMod or Admin will entertain any criticism of the API Moderation. Neither will they entertain any suggestion that there might be a different way to moderate the forum.No you wouldnt--you`d be relying on yourself not to break the rules.Thats all it comes down to.Again you and not the mods is where the problem lies.
I will happily admit when I am wrong - I think that it is a sign of strength & not weakness. In every case, except for my very first API transgression in 2009, the infractions were unjustified & they were dependant on the interpretation of the Moderators. None were for clear cut offences like being unpleasant. In each instant the Moderator/Cmod chose to not believe my explanation & used their "personal discretion" to impose an infraction.
As you know Moderators are free to use their discretion in any way that they see fit. This generally works well throughout Boards because the Moderators take a balanced view. This is not the case with API. I didn't break any rules & I ended up with a permanent ban purely on the discretion of an Admin. This could happen at any time again & it could be used to perhaps implement a site ban.Again youre going on like everyone has it in for you.They dont!!!The admins have more to worry about than one poster who cant see the wood for the trees so to speak.
Far from it. The reason that I didn't leave Boards was because I have never had any problem with the vast majority. The only issues have ever been with two Moderators of API & their associated CMods/Admins. You can't blame me for questioning the moderation in API when my 3000+ posts in other Boards forums haven't caused a issue.If it wasnt fair--you`d have been banned and no more said of the issue.This thread wouldnt be here if there wasnt any fairness to the whole issue.This has been completely fair the way its been handled.
I think that this goes to the heart of the issue as to why Boards see the process as fair & many of the accused don’t. There is a world of difference between expressing an opinion in debate & the other side actually listening to it. A common denominator is that Boards allow someone to have their say but they don’t answer questions or address the issues raised. In other words Boards imply that they are listening but their actions suggest that they aren’t.
To me there are three key fundamental issues that are clearly wrong & unfair. No poster should ever be sanctioned for what they post in a Feedback thread unless it is offensive & punishments should not be increased in Dispute Resolution. Both of these practices serve to dissuade & even intimidate posters from raising valid issues.
If Boards want us to believe them regarding legal issues, private discussions etc then they should reciprocate by believing & accepting our genuine explanations & apologies. It is all about mutual respect - Boards demand it but don’t seem too keen to always give it.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 10089
This thread is going nowhere--Actually its just going around in circles so with that Ive decided that this is my last post on this thread.
The thread is/was about your banning but you cant even stay on that topic.Youve made wild untrue accusations about mods/cmods and admins so obviously you arent here to discuss your ban but are here to blame everyone except yourself in this.
Ive tried in this thread to discuss the issue at hand--that is your ban from the forum and my reasons why I believe the ban happened but its become a bit of a "lets blame everyone and Im completely innocent in all this" on your part.
Ill finish with this---Ive stood up for you on more than one occasion in our **super duper secret hideout moderators forum** Discodog but this time as far as Im concerned the ban can stay in place.0 -
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This thread was always going to go nowhere because you refuse to discuss the issues. All you do is just repeat your stated position that nothing is wrong & it’s all the fault of errant posters. This ban was never going to be overturned & even if it was I could not post again in API without the risk of incurring further bans.
There was never any likelihood that you or Boards would admit to being wrong. I have been accused of being hysterical, of scaremongering, of being a Troll, unreasonable, volatile, unrelenting etc etc. You are hardly likely to suddenly say that I am a nice chap & welcome back !
Just to clarify & repeat that I immediately apologised to the Mod & I have given an undertaking to g'em to abide by the rules. I can't see what else I can do.0 -
And yet neither can you see that all three Mods have explained where you erred and you still refuse to concede.This ban was never going to be overturned & even if it was I could not post again in API without the risk of incurring further bans.Discodog wrote:Just to clarify & repeat that I immediately apologised to the Mod & I have given an undertaking to g'em to abide by the rules. I can't see what else I can do.
You did indeed. But in this case while you stayed within the forum rules you still managed to act like a dick in doing so.
You got an infraction, held your hands up, then went straight to feedback to question the rule. Were we to look up passive aggressiveness in the dictionary I'm sure this incident would fall neatly into the explanation.
The Mods do not want to overturn the ban, you are unwilling to concede that you are at fault. I see no further need to discussion on this thread.0
This discussion has been closed.
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