nibe fighter 1245 running costs

badgerhowlin

Not sure which section to put his in
Prices\costs, heating Or renewable
If mods thinks its in the wrong place PLEASE move it.

I got a nibe fighter 1245 installed and commissioned last week and said i would keep a day to day running cost log of it for a few months for my own curiosity and i said that i would share it with you.

So far i think the running cost is not too bad. Im still trying to tweak it to the correct temp for my house.

If any one has any questions of comments please post.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy6xlLdiDpQdENDa0ZTdkM3S3hfc3BHeURYQ1ZWZkE

sydthebeat

thanks very much badger, any feedback like this is great for the forum.

could i ask you to put your build into context by filling out this quick list??

YEAR INSTALLED
M2 FLOOR AREA
AIR TO WATER
GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
UFH?
RADIATORS?
BOTH?
HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS (BER RATING)?
COST OF INSTALLATION
ANNUAL ESB BILL
ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP

badgerhowlin

YEAR INSTALLED

2012

M2 FLOOR AREA

• 208

Type

• GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) 150m
• 137m of active borehole

Heating method

• UFH

HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS (BER RATING)?

• Provisional BER rating A3 He is coming back next weeks to inspect everything and then send off for the cert
• Has something like 58.3KW\m2

COST OF INSTALLATION

• All insulation came with price of timberframe. Will look it up when i get home and update
• 125mm rigid insulation

• 50mm Thermaliner (38mm insulation and 12mm plasterboard) on all external walls
• Attic Insulation: 400mm Fiberglass
• Ceilling and internal walls 100mm rockwool
• 150 metac on flat roof and bay windows
• 120mm xtratherm XT/UF on ground floor
• Windows Cert
  • Energy index -0.27
  • Thermal Transittance 1.44W/m2
  • Effective Air Leakage 0.00 W/m2
  • Solar Factor 0.45

ANNUAL ESB BILL

• too early to tell.

ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION

• too early to tell.

ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP

• So far I am but i will let you know

Total cost of the system 17500 + 2400(for borehole)

Tmurf

Hey Badger,
I Have one fitted since last september.
Your figures seem close to mine...I think, I was tracking it regularly for months but I have eased up on it at the moment.
I recently have mine shut off during the day and it runs only at night for both the heating and hot water.
What way have you your Temps/Times set up and your average house temp ?

heavydawson

tmurf/badger,
Would either or both of you mind PM-ing me the name of your GSHP installer?
Also did either/both of your install MVHR and/or PV/Solar?
If so, are you happy and can you PM me the details of the installers?
Thanks guys. People putting actual numbers up is a huge help to people like myself weighing up pros and cons of installation.
I hope to return the favour in the coming 12/18 months!

badgerhowlin

Heating shedule

badgerhowlin

Heating shedule

schedule 1

mon 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Tues 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Wed 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Thurs 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Fri 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Sat 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Sun 05:00 - 08.00 +3

Schedule 2
mon 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Tues 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Wed 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Thurs 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Fri 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Sat 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Sun 21:00 - 00.00 -3

Schedule 3 not set
Hot water

Schedule 1
mon 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Tues 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Wed 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Thurs 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Fri 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Sat 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Sun 08:00 - 23.00 OFF

Heating Curve set to 2 and temp set to -2. (was set to -1 yester. Only changed it last night as the house temp was between 21-23 deg all the time)

badgerhowlin

PM sent.

heavydawson wrote: »

tmurf/badger,
Thanks guys. People putting actual numbers up is a huge help to people like myself weighing up pros and cons of installation.
I hope to return the favour in the coming 12/18 months!

I was like you about 12 months ago trying to weigh up the Pros and Cons as well and was looking for HARD figures but couldnt find any, so i had to do a kind of leap of faith and trust in my gut and so far so good.

And this is why im mostly doing this is to give lads like yourself some hard figures to have a look at.

Tmurf

Hey Lads,

Heating shedule at the moment

schedule 1

mon 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Tues 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Wed 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Thurs 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Fri 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Sat 01:00 - 07.00 +4
Sun 01:00 - 07.00 +4

Schedule 2
mon 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Tues 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Wed 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Thurs 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Fri 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Sat 7:00 - 16.00 -3
Sun 7:00 - 16.00 -3


Schedule 3
mon 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Tues 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Wed 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Thurs 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Fri 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Sat 17:00 - 00.00 -3
Sun 17:00 - 00.00 -3



Hot water

Schedule 1
mon 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Tues 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Wed 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Thurs 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Fri 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Sat 07:00 - 04.00 OFF
Sun 07:00 - 04.00 OFF

Heating Curve set to 3 and temp set to 0.
During the winter I increased Schedule 2&3 value from -3 to 0 and increased the temp setting on heat curve to 2/3.
I have about setting in for the last month and a half or so.
Avg weekly ESB pricing during the Winter is €15-€20 p/week.

I have installed a HRV..not turned on yet..Insulating ducting myself, should have done it during the winter when attic was cold but only got half it done. So will be finishing it soon when the weather is better and will be melting with the heat in the attic.

soundskin

badgerhowlin wrote: »

Heating shedule

schedule 1

mon 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Tues 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Wed 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Thurs 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Fri 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Sat 05:00 - 08.00 +3
Sun 05:00 - 08.00 +3

Schedule 2
mon 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Tues 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Wed 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Thurs 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Fri 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Sat 21:00 - 00.00 -3
Sun 21:00 - 00.00 -3

Schedule 3 not set
Hot water

Schedule 1
mon 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Tues 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Wed 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Thurs 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Fri 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Sat 08:00 - 23.00 OFF
Sun 08:00 - 23.00 OFF

Heating Curve set to 2 and temp set to -2. (was set to -1 yester. Only changed it last night as the house temp was between 21-23 deg all the time)

You should bring your schedule 1 back from about 02:00 until 07:00. What happens when you run it until 08:00, ie right up to switch over time from night rate to day rate is that the degrees minutes will still be very low. The heat pump comes on at -60 degree minutes and turns off at 0 degree minutes.

Therefore when it hits 08:00 the heat pump will still have a balance of negative degree minutes to work off and still work on past 08:00 (now at twice the price to run it now) to get the degree minutes back to 0.

If you stop your schedule an hour earlier, then you will give your heat pump an hour to work off it's negative balance of degree minutes thus reducing it's chances of running in the higher tariff from 08:00 onwards.

Small changes like that can make a big difference over the life time of your heat pump. 80% of the running costs of your heat pump is on heating your house so making saving on it's schedule can really pay off.

badgerhowlin

Thanks soundskin.
I will def change the setting but the heating has been turned off now for the summer!

badgerhowlin

Just a quick note on how this is going.
Still Keeping the google doc updated.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy6xlLdiDpQdENDa0ZTdkM3S3hfc3BHeURYQ1ZWZkE#gid=2


So far i am totally happy i have gone with my Geo HP.

My ESB bill for the 1st 2 months(30 Mar 12 to 6 Jun 12 (69 days) was €30.76.
A bit on the high side as the HP was configured wrong and was taking the outside temp as the inside and was trying to get the temp! Turned off the Heating and left the just left the water heating option on after 3 weeks of turning it on.

My 2nd bill (7 Jun 12 to 1 Aug 12 (56 days)) was €19.23
All hot water heating (34 cent a day for 45-51 deg water) not bad if i do say so.

Hope to get out the rest of this month with no heating on and maybe a week or to Oct. but lets just wait and see.

windyboy

Hi Badger,

I have been meaning to do the same since we moved into new 2 story A2 rated ICF build in Sept 2011. We also have a Nibe 1245. I bought an owl energy meter and connected the clamp to the HP MCB last Friday. We have a dual tariff meter.

No heat on at the moment, water costs this week were €3.84 (ex VAT and standing charge) Energy consumed 29.37kWh total.

Badger how are you recording the daily usage , what type of meter have you installed on the board?

Heat pump currently set to curve slope 3, temp -1 and Water comfort mode set to normal. I haven't messed around with heat or water scheduling as I was afraid to as the installer said not to touch anything!

Would be useful to know what I should be doing to optimise it!

Cheers,
Windboy

badgerhowlin

Hi,

To record my daily usage for my HP i just got a digital meter stuck in on the line comming from the fuse board to the HP. Then all i do is check it each morning when i get up and in the evening before i go to bed, so i can check what is used during the day and night.

I only moved in there in May so i havnt had a chance to PLAY around with the heating option. and PLAY i will when the time comes to get my house to the temp i want it.
Windboy, dont be afraid to change you heating setting All that will happen is you are too warm or too cold. Only once you change your settings leave it a few days before you do any more changing.

By the looks of your energy Consumion i would guess that you have your HP heating the hot water during the day as well.
My Hot water comes on ONLY at night. 3am till 5 am brings water from 44deg to 51deg. Granted not much h water is used during the day, but on the odd occation i would but it on for an hour at night to give a little for the wifes bath!
If possible i would not heat the water during the day unless it 100% needs to be.

windyboy

Hi Badger,

I presume if I set the Hot Water to Economy every day between 03:00 and 05:00 that this the same as having the Heat Pump Water Scheduled OFF every day between 05:00 - 03:00?

Perhaps you can post your current schedule configuration as set up on the HP to be sure I am doing the right thing.

Thanks,

Windyboy

badgerhowlin

This is the shedule i have for my hotwater.

schedule 1 active
mon 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Tues 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Wed 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Thurs 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Fri 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Sat 05:30 - 03.00 OFF
Sun 05:30 - 03.00 OFF

schedule 2 deactive.

windyboy

Hi Badger,

Many thanks for that, I have changed mine accordingly.

I noticed the compressor running for heating for the first time since spring. Have you updated your heating schedule based on Soundskins advice? If so can you post latest version of heating schedule please.

Thanks for your help.

Windyboy

badgerhowlin

No i have not done anything with the heating setting yet, but if the wife has anything to so with it i will probable have to do it soon.

badgerhowlin

O well with the past few days of bad weather and not much sun out i have to bit the bullet and turn on the heating tonight.

This is the bit i have been looking forward to all year is to see how well it will heat the house and how much it will cost to do it.

May spend a while this evening getting my self around the heating settings again on the HP and making some adjustments to the manifold down stairs.

KCross

All
Just to add another data point for any would be HP buyers:

I installed the Nibe F1145(12kW)+VPB300 in Dec 2011 in a new build.
I believe the F1145 and the F1245 are the exact same except for the hot water capacity. The F1245 has an inbuilt 160l tank and the F1145 has no tank but the VPB300 is a 300 ltr tank connected to the HP.

The HP had been drying out the house for a few months and we moved in in Jun 2012.

Happy so far with the system but it is too early to tell on the cost side of things until we go through a full cold winter. I'm hoping/expecting it to come in at around €900 for the year.

I have a digital meter connected to the HP so I know exactly what it's costing me. The average daily cost (inc Vat) for running the HP so far is as follows:

Jun €1.70
Jul €1.12
Aug €0.77
Sep €1.68
Oct €3.07

Its a 350sqm house with UFH downstairs and oversized alu rads upstairs. We are not living in the upstairs so the stats are set quite low(17C), the rest of the house is at 20-22C depending on the room.

The source is a horizontal collector(900m).

We have 2 small kids who use the bath and we use the power shower. Have never ran out of water even when we use the bath and the shower at the same time. Our power showers are running at about 11 lpm

We also have Heat Recovery Ventilation installed. I would recommend that system as it complements the HP since it stops you having windows opened leaving out the hard earned heat. The house is always warm from the HP and always fresh air feel to it from the HRV(Brink Renovent).

regards

badgerhowlin

So i have been running this HP since April and here are the figures i have so far.
Month Total for month Average per day
April(25th) € 8.90 € 1.78
May € 22.35 € 0.78
June € 9.27 € 0.31
July € 9.66 € 0.31
August € 9.67 € 0.31
September € 14.06 € 0.47
October € 36.73 € 1.18
November € 16.77 € 1.24
Total for year € 127.41 € 0.80

I know the worst part of the year is coming now so i would be expecting to see probable €50 for nov, dec, jan and then it to start to come down.

windyboy

Badger,

Can you post your latest heating & hot water schedules please.

Cheers,

Winyboy

badgerhowlin

Sorry for the delay
At the moment the settings are as follows
MinFlow line is set to 20.What is this is the the Temp the the water
is in the underflow pipes
Heating curve is set to 1 (0)
Average house temp for the past 3-4weeks is 19.5

Here is my heating and water scheduled
Heating schedule

schedule 1

mon 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Tues 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Wed 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Thurs 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Fri 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Sat 02:30 - 06.00 +4
Sun 02:30 - 06.00 +4

Schedule 2
mon 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Tues 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Wed 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Thurs 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Fri 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Sat 21:00 - 01:00 -3
Sun 21:00 - 01:00 -3

Schedule 3
mon 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Tues 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Wed 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Thurs 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Fri 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Sat 06:45 - 21:00 -3
Sun 06:45 - 21:00 -3

Hot water

Schedule 1
mon 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Tues 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Wed 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Thurs 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Fri 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Sat 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Sun 05.30 - 03.00 OFF
Heats the water to 52ish degrees

windyboy

Badger,

Thanks, Curve Slope 1 (0) wow will you be able to maintain that if we get a cold snap? - I built a 2 storey detached ICF house on an exposed site in NW, floor area approx 270m2 with wall U-value 0.2. We moved in Sept 2011. We have UF heating on both floors and all of our hot water supplied by a Nibe 1245 heat pump with horizontal ground collector. Windows (78m2) are triple glaze 0.9 U-value. We have a warm roof construction with 225mm deep cellulose pumped between rafters giving a U-Value of 0.2. Rising walls are also ICF. Ground floor 275mm silver EPS giving U-value 0.14. Heat recovery ventilation (90% efficiency). I believe the blower door test achieved 1.5 ACH @50 Pa.The Final BER rating is A2 @ 49.06kWh/m2/yr.

The house is more or less constant 21 deg C. I started monitoring the consumption of the heat pump (using owl energy meter) this year on 31st Aug 2012. Since then it has consumed 938 kW/hrs, = €121.16 giving an average daily cost over that period of €1.45. Looking at yesterday's running cost it was €1.86 (we have dual tariff meter, note these costs are ex VAT and not including standing charge).

For last month I was on curve slope 3 (0) with Tmurfs posted settings for last few weeks,however I would like to give your settings a go for the craic. Can you advise is there a mistake on Heating Schedule 1 ?

Thurs 05:00 - 08.00 +4
Fri 05:00 - 08.00 +4
Sat 05:00 - 08.00 +4
Sun 05:00 - 08.00 +4

Should it not be 02:30 - 06:00 + 4 like it is for Mon to Wed ? as when i entered these values it throws up a red exclamation mark against these values?

Can you explain your scheduling philosophy and what is the +4 and -3 degree minutes thing about?

Also the water temperature is fine for the morning showers however in the evening it is cold for washing up and herself is complaining, what to do!

Do you have room stats by the way? I have in bedrooms and living room, with scheduling on does that make these redundant?

Cheers,

Windyboy

badgerhowlin

Im not sure if slope 1(0) will cope with a cold spell, but at the moment its keeping the house at a nice Temp for me anyway. The wife is not complaining either so i wont go changing it. I did have i up at slope 1(2) and it was too hot(21) for my liking so i moved it down.

As far as i can recall the +3 -4 or what ever you set yous at is to do with the circulation pump speed, but i could be wrong as making it up. When i was replying last night i sent off an email to my installers, and asked the very same question. Ill let you know what they come back with.

You are correct it is a typo on the schedule all should be set at 02:30 - 06.00

I didnt get an AIR Test done.
Provisional BER rating A3 He is coming back next weeks to inspect everything and then send off for the cert
Has something like 58.3KW\m2(would of been better but didnt have a BER assessor from start and im using some default details)


I have stats but have not installed them yet. only going to put them into the bedrooms. Leave everything else open. and use the manifold its self to regulate the heat.

badgerhowlin

OK during our recent cold spell I had to change the Curve Slope from 1 (0) to 1(2) it was keeping the house at around 17.5-18.5 deg(or so the bedroom stats said).
The little wifie was cold for the past 2 night so I changed it to 1(3). She is happy now but i wake up all hot and stuffy, bedroom temp now is 18.5-19.5.
I walk around the house in a t-shirt.

Still no word from the supplier of my HP what +3, -4 at the end of the heating schedual is.

So windyboy. Did you give my setting a go. how are they working out for you,

My average daily cost is €2-€2.50 now but it was €1.50-€2.00 before the cold spell hit.

I also changed my degree minus from -60 to -100. I found that the HP was coming on too often when it was at -60.

KCross

The +3, -4 is relating to your heat curve and the flow line temp.

The best way to explain is by an example.
In the info menu there are many statistics presented but the main ones for heating are:
1) "calculated flow temp." This is the temp required in the UFH, calculated by the system, that is required to maintain constant temp in the house.
2) "heat medium flow temp". This is the actual temp of the water being sent to your UFH
3) the heat curve

If say, it is 5C outside. Go to your heat curve and read off the "supply temperature" on the Y axis for 5C(outdoor temperature on the X axis). This gives you your "calculated flow temp" (1 above).

What happens now is the system monitors 1,2 & 3 to calculates the degree minutes figure and that figure decides when the HP comes on/off. By default the HP comes on when degree minutes(DM) is -60 and it goes off when it reaches zero.

If the heat curve says that the supply temp to the UFH needs to be, say, 30C for an outdoor temp of 5C it will look at the current supply temp value. If for example, that current value is 29C your degree minutes will drop by 1 every minute(30C required - 29C current). If it is 28C it will drop by 2 every minute. As each minute passes you will be going more and more negative until you hit -60 and the HP will kick in and start heating the UFH. When the HP comes on you will see the flow line temp going to, say 35, at which point it is now 5C over the calculated figure(30C) so every minute it will add 5 degree minutes. So, after the first minute it will be -55 and then -50 after the 2nd minute until it reaches zero and then it will turn off the HP.

Now, the +4, -3 bit.... In your heating schedule if you have +4 you are adding 4C to the calculated flow temp figure which means the HP has to work harder/longer to get back to zero so your UFH is hotter for longer and hence the house gets warmer. A minus figure is obviously the opposite and results in the HP staying off and the house cooling down. You would typically have a negative during the day(expensive elec) and plus at night to boost the temp in the UFH slab which will then "leak" that temp into the house for the day.

I hope that made sense. It is difficult to explain.

NOTE: You changed the -60 to -100 which will mean the HP will stay off longer but the downside is that it will have to stay on longer to get back upto zero. So, you might not save anything and you might see a larger swing in temperatures. It is a suck it and see thing really. If it works for you and you are happy with it then leave it.

badgerhowlin

Thanks for that KCross. I will have to read that a few more times and then read it again a few times infront of the HP to understand it!

I knew the HP would stay on longer if i set it to -100 but my thing was that it would also stay off longer too hoping that it would save money.
Didnt take into account the swing in temp. But to tell the truth its not something that i was looking for. Will keep an eye on it over the next few days.

KCross

badgerhowlin
One positive thing about setting it to -100 is that, as you said, the HP will stay off for longer periods and on for longer periods which is better for the compressor. Apparently, it's the compressor starting up that wears it out so if you reduce the number of starts, your compressor in theory should last longer. I dont think you'll save any noticeable money on your elec.
So, its a balance between saving your compressor and keeping the temp steady in the house.
-
And I agree on reading my explanation a few times in front of the HP. It took me a few times to understand it. It is worth understanding though as you can make better decisions on the settings when you understand the effect it will have.
-
windyboy
You mention above that you are running out of hot water in the evenings. You have two choices.
1) Change your hot water schedule to include a boost in the late afternoon, which unfortunately means using expensive elec
2) change the existing night time schedule to heat more hot water in the hope that it will stay hot long enough to get you through that evening. in the schedule you specify a start/end time but you also specify "economy", "normal", "luxury". Each of those just heats more water with luxury obviously heating the most.

Personally, I'd leave the night time schedule at normal and set a 2nd economy schedule around 4-5pm to boost the water in the afternoon. I find the water heating happens very quickly so even a 30min schedule should be enough to get you passed the washup.
Try both and see which works best for you. Either way you simply have to heat more water. Its doing that the most efficiently is the hard bit!

Chrisscales

As newcomer to this forum, I would like to say many thanks for all the postings. I am trying to decide if to install a Nibe 1245 12 kw in a house I am renovating in Barcelona (attaching to an UFH system) rather than a condensing boiler. Being Barcelona, less heating is required, just 4-5 months a year, so the installation & upfront cost of geothermal is less easy to justify. However, my supplier is suggesting adding active cooling for the summer months which would help justify the installation costs (passive cooling apparently wont work over here as the ground is too warm). He also suggests the system could be used for heating a pool (we have two kids) in the summer, taking heat from the house and dumping it in the pool. Neat trick if that works in practice but I suspect running costs would be high.

Any thoughts on all this would be most welcomed. Thanks. Chris.

deerpark

hi - i am looking at installing a heatpump to replace one in a 5-6 year old build thats up for sale. The pump was either removed for resale or stolen. I would be grateful if you could PM me your installers as you seem to have good experiences with them. Thanks.