Sean Quinn blames Anglo Irish for his woes.

Unrealistic

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So would you if you thaught you could walk away with a couple hundred million and fair play to them there are a lot bigger crooks geting away with stuff in Ireland and nothing is being done about them. Also a lot of cute h##r's have already put it beyond the banks.

Really, bigger crooks? Does it really get bigger than one individual and his direct family trying to leave the tax payer on the hook for €2.7 billion? Who else do you have in mind specifically?

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

At least Sean Quinn was not a developer only he after all had build a lot of profitable buisness's before the fall. If we had a proper regulator he would not have been allowed to borrow the money and Seanie F would not have been able to take hois loan's off the balance sheet and Irish Permnament would not have lend them 2 Billion to cover the cracks

As for the other businesses being profitable it has already been pointed out that in this thread insurance business were making huge losses. The latest estimate is that we are going to be paying for 15 years to make up a €1 billion short fall. Take a look at the line that says 'levy' next time you pay car, house, health or pretty much any other insurance.

Delancey

There seems to be something of a Border Counties vs. Rest of Country divide on the subject of Sean Quinn. People in the border counties see him as a great ' local ' enrepreneur who created thousands of jobs , rest of the country seem to view him as a greedy and reckless speculator and gambler that has landed the taxpayer and the consumer ( via the Insurance levy ) with billions worth of debts.
I know what side I'm on.......

graduate

There seems to be something of a Border Counties vs. Rest of Country divide on the subject of Sean Quinn. People in the border counties see him as a great ' local ' enrepreneur who created thousands of jobs , rest of the country seem to view him as a greedy and reckless speculator and gambler that has landed the taxpayer and the consumer ( via the Insurance levy ) with billions worth of debts.

Quinn clearly is both. He lost his way in the good times as so many did, just like the person who used money earned from hard work to buy two properties to rent and who cannot pay back his loans. Quinn just did it in a bigger way.

Unrealistic

graduate wrote: »

Quinn clearly is both. He lost his way in the good times as so many did, just like the person who used money earned from hard work to buy two properties to rent and who cannot pay back his loans. Quinn just did it in a bigger way.

There is a major difference. Quinn can pay back his loans, at least in part, but is skirting around the edges of the law to avoid doing so.

Farmer Pudsey

Unrealistic wrote: »

As for the other businesses being profitable it has already been pointed out that in this thread insurance business were making huge losses. The latest estimate is that we are going to be paying for 15 years to make up a €1 billion short fall. Take a look at the line that says 'levy' next time you pay car, house, health or pretty much any other insurance.

The insurance buisness was highly profitable only they gambled with the reserves that is why we have the levy. Years ago the same thing happened with PMPA another motor insurance company.

Also I am not from the border counties I think it is more a rural V Urban divide. Us culchies see the way the Dublin 4 gang are getting away with it and reckon that why not let another away with it.

Laminations

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The insurance buisness was highly profitable only they gambled with the reserves that is why we have the levy. Years ago the same thing happened with PMPA another motor insurance company.

Also I am not from the border counties I think it is more a rural V Urban divide. Us culchies see the way the Dublin 4 gang are getting away with it and reckon that why not let another away with it.

Who is they? Figure that out and you'll know who is to blame - hint: its Quinn. It's not an urban v rural divide, it's an idiot vs sensible divide, don't try and drag rural Ireland onto your indefensible side. And for the locals defending him, since he created local jobs maybe his debts should remain local? Make the people of Cavan and Monaghan pay back his loans and they'll soon want to cut the sleveen's heart out. Yes, the socialisation of losses to his supporters. Make it a 'defend Sean Quinn' levy - 100,000euro if you want to stand by the great entrepreneur.

Funny Pudsey, if this is trolling, that'd actually reflect better on your character.

Laminations

It's amazing, the amount of media attention and concern over the property/household charge which aims to raise 150million? And this delusional creep is trying to evade paying 500million??

The media should be hunting him.

Farmer Pudsey

Laminations wrote: »

Who is they? Figure that out and you'll know who is to blame - hint: its Quinn. It's not an urban v rural divide, it's an idiot vs sensible divide, don't try and drag rural Ireland onto your indefensible side. And for the locals defending him, since he created local jobs maybe his debts should remain local? Make the people of Cavan and Monaghan pay back his loans and they'll soon want to cut the sleveen's heart out. Yes, the socialisation of losses to his supporters. Make it a 'defend Sean Quinn' levy - 100,000euro if you want to stand by the great entrepreneur.

Funny Pudsey, if this is trolling, that'd actually reflect better on your character.

No I am not trolling rather I have a more sanguine view of the world I only see the rural sleveen being draged through the courts. I see none of the D4 brigade being draged through the courts. So I think why should he be the only one.

Also I believe if you or I was in the same situtation human greed would would encourge us to use ever trick legal or otherwise that we could get away with to hold onto as much money as possible.

The regulators in ireland are largly responsible for what happened they were supposed to be independant of government but it looks like they were not.

In the States Maldoff is in jail so is the chief executive of Enron but this is not happening in Ireland. There is one glaring example in the fraud at the large pension company that went bust last year as well as a couple of high profile bankers who committed illegality.

But no not in dear old Ireland.

KyussBishop

Farmer Pudsey wrote:

So would you if you thaught you could walk away with a couple hundred million and fair play to them there are a lot bigger crooks geting away with stuff in Ireland and nothing is being done about them.

That's a disgusting attitude which signifies much of what is wrong with many peoples view of fraud and corruption in this country, and which enables people like Quinn to get away with crime on a massive scale.

You and everyone else in the country are paying for the millions he withholds and the billions he lost, so that kind of an attitude is not just ignorant and enabling, but it is even self damaging, yet you would still congratulate him on that and say "fair play".

By your logic "sure the D4 crowd aren't in prison why should he be?", we should immediately cease all legal challenge for and release everyone from prison for fraud, not paying fines, robbing people/homes, and any other form of theft you can think of; utter ignorance.


People like Sean Quinn, people in the 'D4 crowd' who committed illegal acts, and anyone else that has been involved in the negligence, fraud and corruption that have put the country in the state it's in now, should be brought to court and put in prison for a very long time.

These people have done more damage to this country than anyone else currently in prison, and they deserve maximum punishment; that people are ignorant enough to defend and excuse them is baffling.

Padraig Mor

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No I am not trolling rather I have a more sanguine view of the world I only see the rural sleveen being draged through the courts. I see none of the D4 brigade being draged through the courts. So I think why should he be the only one.

Also I believe if you or I was in the same situtation human greed would would encourge us to use ever trick legal or otherwise that we could get away with to hold onto as much money as possible.

The regulators in ireland are largly responsible for what happened they were supposed to be independant of government but it looks like they were not.

In the States Maldoff is in jail so is the chief executive of Enron but this is not happening in Ireland. There is one glaring example in the fraud at the large pension company that went bust last year as well as a couple of high profile bankers who committed illegality.

But no not in dear old Ireland.

What a crock.

Just yesterday Sean Dunne - he of D4 Hotels fame - was "dragged through the courts" and ordered to pay €165 million on foot of personal guarantees - y'know, those things Sean Quinn is trying to evade.

While the regulators may not be shining lights of financial competence, the failure of Quinn Insurance is entirely down to Sean Quinn himself, who ran it into the ground well before, and entirely separate from, the Anglo debacle. As far back as 10 years ago, concerns were raised about the nature of Quinn Insurance's assets and their ability to cover claims. In 2008, their rating was pulled by Moody's and shortly afterwards Quinn are rumoured to have refused entry to the Irish regulator at their HQ in order to conduct an audit.

Quinn is a loathsome individual.

Unrealistic

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No I am not trolling rather I have a more sanguine view of the world I only see the rural sleveen being draged through the courts. I see none of the D4 brigade being draged through the courts. So I think why should he be the only one.

Also I believe if you or I was in the same situtation human greed would would encourge us to use ever trick legal or otherwise that we could get away with to hold onto as much money as possible.

The regulators in ireland are largly responsible for what happened they were supposed to be independant of government but it looks like they were not.

In the States Maldoff is in jail so is the chief executive of Enron but this is not happening in Ireland. There is one glaring example in the fraud at the large pension company that went bust last year as well as a couple of high profile bankers who committed illegality.

But no not in dear old Ireland.

What a crock.

Just yesterday Sean Dunne - he of D4 Hotels fame - was "dragged through the courts" and ordered to pay €165 million on foot of personal guarantees - y'know, those things Sean Quinn is trying to evade.

While the regulators may not be shining lights of financial competence, the failure of Quinn Insurance is entirely down to Sean Quinn himself, who ran it into the ground well before, and entirely separate from, the Anglo debacle. As far back as 10 years ago, concerns were raised about the nature of Quinn Insurance's assets and their ability to cover claims. In 2008, their rating was pulled by Moody's and shortly afterwards Quinn are rumoured to have refused entry to the Irish regulator at their HQ in order to conduct an audit.

Quinn is a loathsome individual.

Exactly and Dunne's creditors already have possession of his hotels. They haven't been hived off to some Central American front company. Then there's Brian O'Donnell and his wife, Johnny Ronan, Richard Barrett and David Drumm. NAMA and the IBRC have dozens of court cases ongoing and plenty of those are against 'the D4 brigade'. They've also appointed Receivers to dozens of developers. The Customs House Capital case is still working its way to through the court and there were hearings on that during the last few days. To try to absolve Quinn on the spurious basis that 'the D4 brigade' are getting away with it is wrong both because it is not true and because it displays the morals of a kid in junior infants ("but Sir, Jimmy did it first").

I'd love to see Fingleton and Fitzpatrick in jail, and I think it stinks the way that investigation is being dragged out, but that is no basis for letting Quinn off the hook.

Unrealistic

Are any of the Quinn apologists willing to try justify this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssets.html
Definitive proof that the contempt judgement last Tuesday actually let them off lightly. In reality they are up to their necks in the most cynical fraud and perjury. All to try to rip off the Irish taxpayer for an amount which would fully fund a half dozen major hospitals for a year.

Sponge Bob

Who, in this thread, is a Quinn "apologist" ??

I believe the taxpayer paid to acquire those videos and that someone under contract to the taxpayer released them to a UK newspaper. Will that release of material owned by the taxpayer be investigated???

Unrealistic

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I believe the taxpayer paid to acquire those videos and that someone under contract to the taxpayer released them to a UK newspaper. Will that release of material owned by the taxpayer be investigated???

I initially thought that too, that the video might have been commissioned by the IBRC, but now I think it is more likely that it was actually the locals who were supposed to buy the shopping centre from the Quinns in a secret deal. The video was clearly recorded from a device on the table they were actually meeting at, not from somewhere else nearby, so that suggests it was being recorded by someone taking part in that meeting rather than a private detective following the Quinns around.

KyussBishop

Besides, the material is in the public interest anyway, so it's right that it should be publicly available.

Dannyboy83

Unrealistic wrote: »

Are any of the Quinn apologists willing to try justify this?

I think you're being totally unrealistic.
If you were the richest man Ireland, who went bankrupt, would you accept it?
Or would you wriggle?

I bet 60% of people would wriggle.
The 40% who wouldn't would just top themselves.

What he and family are doing now, is disgusting/despicable.
He has lost any dignity he ever had.
I wouldn't condone it. But I understand it.

Anyway, it's a separate topic :
i) Do we have any new evidence which shows he acted illegally prior to losing his shirt on Anglo? (as far as I understand, all the acts of desperation have been post-bankruptcy)
ii) Has the criminal investigation into Anglo been concluded?
iii) Has the Financial Regulator been given a pass?


Bear in mind, Enron investors achieved the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases.

If there is any evidence to dispute the above, I'm interested in hearing it.
Might save us a colossal legal bill in the future!

Of course, we will have to wait the outcome of the criminal investigation into Anglo.

Head The Wall

Most people would probably try and wriggle within the remit of the law. What has gone on here is very different i.e. blatant disregard for law, perjury etc

Laminations

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I think you're being totally unrealistic.
If you were the richest man Ireland, who went bankrupt, would you accept it?
Or would you wriggle?

I bet 60% of people would wriggle.
The 40% who wouldn't would just top themselves.

What he and family are doing now, is disgusting/despicable.
He has lost any dignity he ever had.
I wouldn't condone it. But I understand it.

You are acting like he and his family are going to be left in penury. He was a businessman making business decisions - he is to blame for his downfall and his conduct now is the real measure of his character.

Dannyboy83

Head The Wall wrote: »

Most people would probably try and wriggle within the remit of the law. What has gone on here is very different i.e. blatant disregard for law, perjury etc

Minister for Defence Willie O’Dea
Or An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern
or An Taosieach Charlie Haughey
or Michael Lowery or DOB.
or Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor.
or Mick Wallace.
and so on.
and so on.
and so on.

Point being - the last 3 decades back to the time of Charlie Haughey at least, has proven to us that this is unfortunately much more the rule, rather than the exception, in Ireland. And that's just the ones we know about.

You and I laugh at Leona Helmsley, but privileged people in Irish society don't see what the joke is.

Laminations

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Minister for Defence Willie O’Dea
Or An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern
or An Taosieach Charlie Haughey
or Michael Lowery or DOB.
or Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor.
or Mick Wallace.
and so on.
and so on.
and so on.

Sorry, what is your point? Quinn shouldn't be punished because people before him weren't punished, but I suppose in each of those cases people before them weren't punished and I suppose that after Quinn no one will be punished as Quinn will continue on this 'tradition'. How about rather than deflection, we all push for Quinn to be punished harshly and draw a line in the bloody sand

Dannyboy83

Laminations wrote: »

Sorry, what is your point? Quinn shouldn't be punished because people before him weren't punished, but I suppose in each of those cases people before them weren't punished and I suppose that after Quinn no one will be punished as Quinn will continue on this 'tradition'. How about rather than deflection, we all push for Quinn to be punished harshly and draw a line in the bloody sand

Most people would probably try and wriggle within the remit of the law

Followed by list showing that is not true for privileged people in Ireland.
- the point is blatantly obvious.


In reply to your strawman argument - can you show me where I said I don't want Quinn to be punished?
I think I've condemned his actions several times in this thread already.

For utmost clarification:
I would gladly see Quinn punished.
I don't want them to get away with it, wheter his predecessors did or didn't.


But as I said, ye are being totally unrealistic with the shock and indignation.
There are different rules for them (big people) and us (the little people) in Ireland- like it or lump it.

Laminations

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But as I said, ye are being totally unrealistic with the shock and indignation.
There are different rules for them (big people) and us (the little people) in Ireland- like it or lump it.

The shock and indignation would be part of drawing the line in the sand I would have thought, the bit where we say we're not going to take this anymore, we want real consequences. Or we could go your route of 'nothing to see here, business as usual' and see how quickly change comes.

Dannyboy83

Laminations wrote: »

The shock and indignation would be part of drawing the line in the sand I would have thought, the bit where we say we're not going to take this anymore, we want real consequences.

Like the Moriarty Tribunal?
Or the Mahon Tribunal?
And so on.
It's been done a thousand times before on this forum - which you as a long time poster already know anyway.

I sympathise with you, but it doesn't change anything ( I wish it did).
It just makes discussions here emotional, when they should be mostly factual.

I guarantee you that posting on an internet forum will not bring about the change you desire.
If it could, it would have happened a long time ago

Or we could go your route of 'nothing to see here, business as usual' and see how quickly change comes.

I think it was pretty much expected that Quinn would resort to desperate measures.
I hope the people responsible are adequately prepared to prosecute him.

Laminations

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Like the Moriarty Tribunal?
Or the Mahon Tribunal?
And so on.
It's been done a thousand times before on this forum - which you as a long time poster already know anyway.

Well no, not like them, because it will be a trial, a criminal trial hopefully against Quinn, Fitzpatrick and many people related to Anglo. I was never a fan of tribunals and never saw them as a means of getting justice.

This is different.

This is also in a whole different ballpark in terms of the amounts in question. In the Quinn case the disputed 500million alone is over 3 times what was expected to be raised by the very unpopular household charge - which has received far more public criticism. The 3 billion is what is to be cut in this budget not that I think we'll ever see that back.

Unrealistic

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I think you're being totally unrealistic.
If you were the richest man Ireland, who went bankrupt, would you accept it?
Or would you wriggle?

I bet 60% of people would wriggle.
The 40% who wouldn't would just top themselves.

What he and family are doing now, is disgusting/despicable.
He has lost any dignity he ever had.
I wouldn't condone it. But I understand it.

Anyway, it's a separate topic :
i) Do we have any new evidence which shows he acted illegally prior to losing his shirt on Anglo? (as far as I understand, all the acts of desperation have been post-bankruptcy)
ii) Has the criminal investigation into Anglo been concluded?
iii) Has the Financial Regulator been given a pass?


Bear in mind, Enron investors achieved the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases.

If there is any evidence to dispute the above, I'm interested in hearing it.
Might save us a colossal legal bill in the future!

Of course, we will have to wait the outcome of the criminal investigation into Anglo.

Whether or not the Anglo investment suffered from negligent reporting is to a large extent irrelevant. Independent of the money lost on that Quinn is still in hock to the state for well over €1.5 billion. He took money from the insurance reserves, money that he had a duty to invest prudently, and used it to fund his property gambles. That under provision for reserves is still playing out but it is forecast to lie between €600m and €1b. Then there is the money that he borrowed to supposedly purchase Anglo shares. A significant part of that (from memory €200m) never actually went to purchase Anglo shares but was siphoned off into other Quinn vehicles. Lastly, at least €500m of the €2.8b owed to Anglo/IBRC has nothing to do with share purchases and was borrowed over the course of 9 years to fund property investments by the Quinns.

So, even if it was accepted that the money spent on Anglo shares should be written off, then the Quinns would still owe more than the value of the property which they are now trying to fraudulently keep out of the reach of the IBRC.

Unrealistic

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I sympathise with you, but it doesn't change anything ( I wish it did).
It just makes discussions here emotional, when they should be mostly factual.

I guarantee you that posting on an internet forum will not bring about the change you desire.
If it could, it would have happened a long time ago

Agreed posting on an internet forum is not going to change anything in and of itself but it can be one little straw on the camel's back. Changes in attitudes don't happen quickly but they can happen and they can be momentous. Look at the shift in power away from the Catholic Church in this country over the last 30 years or more. How great would it be to find ourselves, 30 years from now, with the gombeens having fallen out of influence to the same degree?