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thoughts on purebred dogs and cats?
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02-05-2012 11:25pmpersonally, i'm against it! i think if somebody wants a dog or a cat, they should go to a shelter and take one that has no home, or lost their home, rather than spending 3 or 400 quid on a "pretty" one.
when i was younger we had an old english sheepdog, while being an absolutely stunning dog, she was wild, and a bit stupid. so we had to give her away to a farm cos of her energy (sounds so bad but my parents SWEAR this is the truth, even to this day). We never got attached to her, and i wasnt too bothered when she was leaving.
But when she left, we got a new dog from the animal welfare. she looked pretty funny, short little legs, a long body of a bassett hound, but the face of a (regular?) sheepdog. people have said she looked like a table.
she was a year old when we got her, easy to train, very good with us kids, extremely loyal. she was as quiet as a mouse in the corner in the shelter and thats why my mother picked her, cos she looked so sad. as soon as she was in the car coming home, she was full of barks, licking us all over, happy as can be. she lived to the ripe old age of 18! she only passed last summer, and still get teary eyed thinking about her.
to be honest, i dont know an awful lot about purebreeding. i'm aware that they dont live as long, are prone to diseases like cancer etc moreso than mongrels. they aren't as smart as mongrels, or as mild tempered... my facts could be all wrong, but i'd love to hear anyone elses experiences with purebred dogs, (or cats!)
id also love to hear who thinks its right or wrong, or if you have any info that might change my mind a bit0
Comments
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Personally, I would never "buy" a dog, but I don't mind people who do. I wouldn't mind paying the cost of vaccinations etc, but a couple of hundred euro would be out of the question for me. That said must people who spend alot have their heart in the right place and can be good pet owners, just a shame they can't rescue dogs.0
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Yes your facts are all wrong sorry. When buying a pedigree dog you can do your research, read up on breed characteristics, traits and needs and find a dog that can fit into your lifestyle. You dont always know what your gettin with a rescue. In sayin that my dogs a rescue dog.0
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Have both brought a pure bred beagle & have 2 rescue cavaliers completely researched my beagle breeder to within an inch of his life seen Maggie (beagle) 4 times before took her home met her parents & her grandmotther....neve have had an issue with her health wise or behavioural....she's usual beagle spirit not everyone cup of tea but completely mine...just to add all my dogs are neutered too...
The cavs are amazing too very very lucky to have them poor babies didnt have the best start in life & im delighted i can offer them the home & love they deserve....but have had more medical issues with them than the beagle plus one Cav had a bit of rough time with previous owners luckily I know how to help him with his "issues"....
Personally I clearly have no problem with people buying if that's what they want to do...i wanted a beagle & i wanted the cute beagle that you see on tv like in cats & dogs and i am not ashamed to admit that...
I only have a problem with people who give up their dogs for no apparent reason....or just can't be bothered to help their dog with their issues....they are the problem...0 -
Is this a rescue vs breeder thread or a pedigree vs mongrel thread because there is a huge difference? There are literally thousands of pedigree dogs in rescues. And cats and dogs again are completely different. There are vast differences between different breeds or types of dogs which is the whole point of why people opt for different dogs. Your family seem to have made a massive error in judgement with your OES, because basicly they have a set list of needs and traits and basic research into the breed should have shown that they were not suited to your family's circumstances. The usual heath problems that occur within various breeds are well documented and I know the problems that may occur with both my dogs, have researched them to death and could easily spot the onset of common problems that exist within both breeds. I know that my pup shouldn't be allowed climb stairs or jump up on furniture while he is still growing as it could lead to problems with his knees later on in life. These are the benefits of knowing what you are getting. They both have been bred for specific functions, have specific instincts and traits that are prominent and I went in well equipped with all the information I need to ensure I can provide the necessary care to satisfy all their needs. Neither of my dogs will be looking for new homes at any stage during their lives as a result.
I can trace my pups ancestry back to the formation of the breed and records exist from before the breed was recognised by the kennel clubs. I got to meet several generations of his immediate family, have ongoing support for his life from the people who bred him, and full health records are available for his family line. If I tried hard enough I could probably estimate what his lifespan would be from his ancestry.
You don't get all of what's contained in the above paragraph for €300 or €400 though, what you get for that price is an animal that is poorly bred by a person with probably no knowledge of what they doing sticking two dogs together so they can make a few quid selling puppies as a sideline, possibly riddled with heath problems. So if the question is are mongrels healthier than pedigree dogs, the answer is - it depends entirely on whom the dogs parents are, what breed/breeds are involved etc. in both cases. Your average total mixed breed mongrel will be healthier than a poorly bred pedigree of questionable origin. Then there's the deliberately, poorly and intensively bred flavour of the month cross-breed - I would imagine there is not much difference between these and your average poorly bred pedigree. What I can say with certainty is the best guarantee of health can be found in a pedigree dog sourced in the way I sourced my pup, from well documented, heath-tested lines deliberately bred for function and longevity by people who actually know what they are doing.
As far as intelligence goes, again it comes down to having some basic understanding of the genetic make-up of your particular dog. With pedigree dogs what drives and motivates them varies between breeds (and crosses) and the information needed to figure out what might work best is freely and widely available. 'Intelligence' is usually used to describe how trainable a dog is and herding dogs are supposedly the most intelligent. I would dispute this as personally I think these are two completely different things. My terrier is extremely untrainable but knows a wide range of commands, from sit to crawl, to dance and turn left and right, easier when you know what motivates her. She has taught me to let the pup out of his crate by pulling toys out of the toybox and messing about beside his crate so he gets wound up and jumps up and down bashing his head of the top of the crate so I would question who the most intelligent is between her and me. So I'd give her 2 out of 10 for trainability because she's ruddy hard work and and 11 out of 10 for intelligence
Cats are a whole different story as there is no real marked difference in their basic behaviour, instincts and mannerisms across different breeds as far as I know, but I've never had a pedigree cat so can't comment much on that front.
As I kid, I grew up on one of those farms that people gave their unwanted 'problem' pets to. In most cases they were gifted to us in the middle of the night without our knowledge. Not one of them was a problem to us, none of them were stupid or wild or aggressive they were all either misunderstood, mistreated, abused, under exercised or in one case brain-damaged - most likely as the result of being hit by a car. None of them was an OES though0 -
Not everyone is in the position to rescue a dog or cat. Personally I would love to have rescued a dog but because I have a baby son I did not want to risk getting a dog that I did not have any information on ie: his breed, temperament, health etc. my vet advised me to get a purebred because I was getting exactly what the breed should be.
In our case our pug is exactly as the pug breeds I've researched a friendly clown who is unbelievably loyal. I think it's all down to personal circumstance to be honest. I've had mongrels before and purebreds and I don't think it matters at all as long as you treat the dog with love and kindness.0 -
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I would be very weary of getting a 'pedigree' dog, although I have several working dogs. These dogs are 'pedigree', and are great at their job, they'd fail miserably in the showring though. Working labradors look so different from the show type that you'd nearly believe they were a different breed.
All you have to do, is watch the follow up program made by the BBC
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adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Is this a rescue vs breeder thread or a pedigree vs mongrel thread because there is a huge difference? There are literally thousands of pedigree dogs in rescues. And cats and dogs again are completely different. There are vast differences between different breeds or types of dogs which is the whole point of why people opt for different dogs. Your family seem to have made a massive error in judgement with your OES, because basicly they have a set list of needs and traits and basic research into the breed shown have shown that they were not suited to your families circumstance. The usual heath problems that occur within various breeds are well documented and I know the problems that may occur with both my dogs, have researched them to death and could easily spot the onset of common problems that exist within both breeds. I know that my pup shouldn't be allowed climb stairs or jump up on furniture while he is still growing as it could lead to problems with his knees later on in life. These are the benefits of knowing what you are getting. They both have been bred for specific functions, have specific instincts and traits that are prominent and I went in well equipped with all the information I need to ensure I can provide the necessary care to satisfy all their needs. Neither of my dogs will be looking for new homes at any stage during their lives as a result.
I can trace my pups ancestry back to the formation of the breed and records exist from before the breed was recognised-be by the kennel clubs. I got to meet several generations of his immediate family, have ongoing support for his life from the people who bred him, and full health records are available for his family line. If I tried hard enough I could probably estimate what his lifespan would be from his ancestry.
You don't get all of what's contained in the above paragraph for €300 or €400 though, what you get for that price is an animal that is poorly bred by a person with probably no knowledge of what they doing sticking two dogs together so they can make a few quid selling puppies as a sideline, possibly riddled with heath problems. So if the question is are mongrels healthier than pedigree dogs, the answer is - it depends entirely on whom the dogs parents are, what breed/breeds are involved etc. in both cases. Your average total mixed breed mongrel will be healthier than a poorly bred pedigree of questionable origin. Then there's the deliberately, poorly and intensively bred flavour of the month cross-breed - I would imagine there is not much difference between these and your average poorly bred pedigree. What I can say with certainty is the best guarantee of health can be found in a pedigree dog sourced in the way I sourced my pup, from well documented, heath-tested lines deliberately bred for function and longevity by people who actually know what they are doing.
As far as intelligence goes, again it comes down to having some basic understanding of the genetic makeup of your particular dog. With pedigree dogs what drives and motivates them varies between breeds (and crosses) and the information needed to figure out what might work best is freely and widely available. 'Intelligence' is usually used to describe how trainable a dog is and herding dogs are supposedly the most intelligent. I would dispute this as personally I think these are two completely different things. My terrier is extremely untrainable but knows a wide range of commands, from sit to crawl, to dance and turn left and right, easier when you know what motivates her. She has taught me to let the pup out of his crate by pulling toys out of the toybox and messing about beside his crate so he gets wound up and jumps up and down bashing his head of the top of the crate so I would question who the most intelligent is between her and me. So I'd give her 2 out of 10 for trainability because she's ruddy hard work and and 11 out of 10 for intelligence
Cats are a whole different story as there is no real marked difference in their basic behaviour, instincts and mannerisms across different breeds as far as I know, but I've never had a pedigree cat so can't comment much on that front.
As I kid, I grew up on one of those farms that people gave their unwanted 'problem' pets to. In most cases they were gifted to us in the middle of the night without our knowledge. Not one of them was a problem to us, none of them were stupid or wild or aggressive they were all either misunderstood, mistreated, abused, under exercised or in one case brain-damaged - most likely as the result of being hit by a car. None of them was OES though0 -
A lot of wild statements there,every dog is genetically different and whether you pay over the odds for a pup is no guarantee that they will lead an uncomplicated healthy life.
No, there is no such thing as an immortal dog so obviously they will all die of something, responsible breeding is a matter of risk management, all dogs are made up the genetic material they inherit from their two parents with occasional mutations, there have been massive advancements in genetics and genes have been pinpointed that have been proven to either cause a specific ailment or cause an animal to be more susceptible to a specific aliment. If an animal carries such a gene, it should not be bred from, if it has an ailment which can be passed on genetically it should also not be bred from thus ending the cycle with that dog.
Any chance you can be a bit more specific about exactly which statements I have made that are wild rather than quoting my whole post?0 -
OP, you do realise that you can get pedigree dogs (don't know enough about cats to comment) from shelters? There are breed specific welfare organisations, and unfortunately a lot of pedigree dogs end up in general welfares as well.
So, by your way of thinking, you would like to see no breeders, people who spend time and money, researching dogs, choosing correct dogs to put together, doing health tests etc. The only dogs we would have would be 'accidental' matings between dogs that the new pup's owners would know nothing about? Personally I would rather that we actually only had responsible breeders doing all the right things, and no more cross bred 'accidents'. I am not against crossbreeds at all, but if we're talking about welfare and health issues, then surely it is best to do things properly? Until I got my first PB siberian husky 7 years ago, I and my family had always had crossbreeds, usually friends or neighbours who's dogs had accidentally mated, although I had also had some rescue dogs.
Obviously there are irresponsible people breeding pedigree dogs, including 'champion' showdogs, and they should be stopped. But you can't judge a whole section of people by the actions of some. No reason at all why you shouldn't buy a pedigree dog if thats what you want, as long as you do your research, and take your time, and aren't swayed by fancy pieces of paper and long titles.0 -
yellowlabrador wrote: »I would be very weary of getting a 'pedigree' dog, although I have several working dogs. These dogs are 'pedigree', and are great at their job, they'd fail miserably in the showring though. Working labradors look so different from the show type that you'd nearly believe they were a different breed.
I agree with you that some working breeds have two different types - working and showing, which is very, very sad. I don't believe that any dog from a working breed should be allowed to be a champion until it has proved itself in the ring and in its field of work. Don't want to pick on the labs, but put most of the show labs out in a field and ask them to do a days work, they won't be able to, so how on earth are they great examples of the breed?
However, as you say, you have pedigree, working dogs, so I imagine that the breeders you bought from had done their research, and put dogs together that they really wanted, to get another great working litter. I think the issue of pedigree against show dogs is a different issue to the one being discussed here. If I wanted to buy another siberian husky I wouldn't buy from Eire, I would go to a particular breeder in Northern Ireland, or go over to England or Scotland, as I would want a working type, who probably wouldn't do well in the show ring here, but would be great out on the trails.:)0 -
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Iv a rescued crossbreed but I'd certainly have no problem with someone buying a pedigree dog so long as they research and buy from a reputable breeder, what I do have a problem with is someone opening the buy & sell or jumping on the Internet and buying the first dog they see because it's cute or cheap without researching its needs or the breeder.
I'd imagine the situation with purebred cats is much the same just not on as large a scale. Il be forever sticking with moggies although I might be tempted to get a Siamese at some stage, if I was I'd search the country (and go to the uk if needed) high and low for a suitable breeder, paying a few extra euro for something I'l have at least 15+ years is pennies over that length of time. It's the same with dogs, I'l be sticking with rescues, probably crossbreeds as I love scruffy terrier types, but if I were to get a purebred it'd either be a rescue or a well researched and thought out dog from a breeder. If I had to spend €1000+ so be it, iv seen the consequences of buying a donedeal dog for €200 and I never want that, over it's lifespan of say a minimum 10 years that's a measly €100 a year. I also would like to get involved in showing cairns sometime down the line.
Certainly don't think there's any intelligence difference between crossbreeds and pure breeds, that's just daft. Like a typical terrier my fella is very intelligent and picks things up quickly but like AJ described he's nearly too smart for his own good, he's certainly no pole weaving dancing border collie, yet he knows commands iv never taught him he just picks them up from watching and listening to us. It's the same with my cat, I can stand in the kitchen and point at any door, raise my eyebrows and she'll go through that door swishing her tail and making a croaking noise, she also knows her name and comes when called, good luck with training her to sit though. So I don't think intelligence can be measured in trainability.
Iv seen 2 polar opposites, met people who were purebreed or crossbreed snobs, I'd like to think I'm in the middle. Then again I'm hungover so I wouldn't pass much heed of my ramblings at the moment.0 -
adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Cats are a whole different story as there is no real marked difference in their basic behaviour, instincts and mannerisms across different breeds as far as I know, but I've never had a pedigree cat so can't comment much on that front.
There are indeed a lot of differences in purebred cats: asian types tend to be more vocal and more dependant (and very dexterous), small breeds like somalis are bloody nuts, very active and are great family cats, persians tend to be quite lazy, british shorthairs are notoriously loving to everyone, Maine Coons are big and bold and love water, bengals are highly active and intelligent, but not compatible with most other animals or children. I've got a somali, a maine coon and a persian, and hoping to get a brit or bengal in the future, and the three I have couldn't be more different from each other. I also have three moggies who are very different again.
I have three purebred dogs as well, two were bought, the third was rescued. I have nothing against mutts, but I know what I want from a dog and you can never be guaranteed what you'll get with crosses or mongrels
I also think its a myth that crosses/mutts are healthier and live longer than purebreds. I know someone with a purebred lab who's coming up on eighteen and was sourced from a good breeder, who still keeps in contact with the owner. On the other hand, I have a friend with a boxer lab cross and they've had nothing but trouble with him. If both parents of these mongrels have health issues, what exactly is to stop the offspring from getting them? A lot of breeds have common health problems so the risk of them being passed on is quite high.0 -
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to be honest, i dont know an awful lot about purebreeding. i'm aware that they dont live as long, are prone to diseases like cancer etc moreso than mongrels. they aren't as smart as mongrels, or as mild tempered... my facts could be all wrong, ...........................
TBH there isn't really such a difference between 'purebred' and 'mongrel' the have the same number of chromosomes, organs and limbs. One pedigree dog could be closer to a particular mongrel than to another pedigree. The only difference is the breeding history and what it can tell us.
All of the pedigree breeds started out as mongrels but their breeding was controlled/directed towards specific (working/hunting/fighting/companion) purposes. Even today new breeds are being developed towards new purposes (guide/assistance dogs) these are not yet recognised breeds and don't have the length of history as older breeds but they are starting the same way with desirable characteristics being combined.
There's no difference either in life expectancy, it is generally accepted that the giant breeds don't fare so well and there is very rough correlation that the smaller breeds live longer. A pedigree breed history will give us a median expectancy but for an unknown breed it can only be a guess.
While some pedigree breeds are known to suffer from genetic diseases/disabilities (that some breeders do nothing to eliminate and even exacerbate these problems is disgusting) there's no reason to believe that cancer is one of them.
The intelligence of dogs (and humans) is notoriously difficult to measure because it requires a level of cooperation which cannot be assured and it is almost impossible to devise standardised tests which work across all breeds and their different functionalities. Imagine the leaving cert as one single test for all people, who haven't been told what they're doing.
While there are differences between breeds in the way they react to stimuli/circumstances, the temperament of dogs is ultimately more to do with their environment and how they are treated, a safe confident dog is more likely to be mild tempered than a frightened dog who feels the need to protect itself.0 -
thanks!! lots of interesting points and info given! see, im very sensitive to animals, i even help spiders out of the bath before i get in, rather than letting them drown. Personally, if an animal out there lost its home, i wouldnt care what its function was (hunting etc), or i wouldnt care what it looked like, cute or not, id love to give it a home if i could.
thats obviously in an ideal world. i do understand that with children in a house, you have to be aware of a dogs personality and temperment, but i do know that shelters claim they spend time with dogs and test what theyre like with toys, kids, other dogs and cats. still, if i did have a child, i would want to be 100% sure what to expect with a dogs personality, and thats where a pedigree would come in.
i do know you can get pedigrees in shelters, and i think thats great. i have seen lots of greyhounds in my local animal welfare, and its sad that they are just dumped when they are no longer of use. but they are meant to make lovely pets.
i suppose my original post comes from hearing horror stories about these puppy farms where scumbags will put a mother through hell to constantly have puppies and it breaks my heart. i know these may be rare, and hopefully everyone who wants to buy a pedigree puppy are as knowledgable as all of you! i didnt realise the amount of research and work that would go into selecting a pedigree dog.
i have always wanted a Persian cat. they are just adorable!!! but i took in a big, fat, grumpy cat about 8 months ago, and if i could swap her for a persian cat, no way would i do it. im attached to her now. shes about 8 years old, and i have managed to get her weight down a bit, but shes so grumpy its hilarious. she loves me tho, if i get up, she gets up, when i sit down on the couch, she jumps up beside me. she sleeps at the end of my bed. she hates my partner, when ever he comes into the room, she'd run over to me, and always stare him out of it (im probably reading too much into it, shes still a cat!! but its nice to think so, lol). but i look at her and would hate to think she could be on the streets with nowhere to go.0 -
My personal opinions:
Opting for a rescue dog (purebred, cross breed or mongrel) - Good
Opting for a responsible breeder of purebred dogs - Good
Opting for an irresponsible breeder of any dog - Not good
I think you mean well OP but I don't understand how you can say you're against purebreds. I'm ALL for rescue dogs but I love to see a well bred dog, one that's a prime example of his breed, in the hands of a good owner.0 -
in fairness, i wouldnt say im "against" them... not after reading the posts here espescially.as i said, i know extremely little about pedigree dogs, and all i have really heard about is these cruel illegal puppy farms that you hear about, and thats where my opinion originally came from. and id say everyone is against those!
at the end of the day, i see its a personal choice, but personally, id be geared more towards a rescue dog. not that i would judge anyone who would get a pedigree, not at all.
it all boils down to the owner!0 -
adrenalinjunkie wrote: »You don't get all of what's contained in the above paragraph for €300 or €400 though, what you get for that price is an animal that is poorly bred by a person with probably no knowledge of what they doing sticking two dogs together so they can make a few quid selling puppies as a sideline
I agree with a lot of what you've said, however this is absolutely incorrect. Dog breeding is as susceptible to the laws of supply and demand as any other good or service. The more people, particularly club/society registered, breeding a certain breed, the more supply and therefore the lower the price will be. Even the amount of puppy farms or back yard breeders will affect the price a well reputed breeder can charge for a dog.
They're not priced on the bags of tricks they come with, they're priced on their availability or lack thereof.0 -
TehDagsBass wrote: »I agree with a lot of what you've said, however this is absolutely incorrect. Dog breeding is as susceptible to the laws of supply and demand as any other good or service. The more people, particularly club/society registered, breeding a certain breed, the more supply and therefore the lower the price will be. Even the amount of puppy farms or back yard breeders will affect the price a well reputed breeder can charge for a dog.
They're not priced on the bags of tricks they come with, they're priced on their availability or lack thereof.
Totally disagree with that. Reputable, responsible breeders won't vary their price dependent on the competition. They will only be breeding in the first place for themselves, very seldom do you only get one pup in a litter, so the others will be sold. With the cost of the health tests, good vet care for the bitch and pups, good food etc, there is no profit in breeding - if done properly, but as said, those breeders don't do it for money anyway.
OP, you may not be aware, but puppy farmers breed crossbreds (mongrels) as well, so I think the issue is with badly bred dogs or well bred dogs. There are a lot of designer dogs out there, crosses with made up names that have no hope of ever being recognised as a breed in their own right. So, people are paying a lot of money for mongrels.:rolleyes:0 -
TehDagsBass wrote: »I agree with a lot of what you've said, however this is absolutely incorrect. Dog breeding is as susceptible to the laws of supply and demand as any other good or service. The more people, particularly club/society registered, breeding a certain breed, the more supply and therefore the lower the price will be. Even the amount of puppy farms or back yard breeders will affect the price a well reputed breeder can charge for a dog.
They're not priced on the bags of tricks they come with, they're priced on their availability or lack thereof.
Yes you are right, that's a very generalised sweeping statement, but I know a lot of reputable breeders are unable to supply all of the demand for their dogs which is fine because it allows them to match each of their pups with the right home. To be honest the people who are doing it right for the most part can afford to be very choosy about who their dogs go to because they have no shortage of enquires and people willing to wait for one of their dogs. Some of the tests for some breeds cost thousands and for people who are looking for this in a breeder they are happy to pay the price as it's covering in part the investment that has already been made by the breeder into the future of 'their' pet.
Club/Society registered does not necessarily equal ethical, responsible breeding even if it's ingrained in the club rules, I wouldn't want a dog from someone who was just breeding in compliance of someone else's rules, they should be looking to eradicate all problems in their own lines, not just those pointed out as a 'breed' problem by someone else.0 -
adrenalinjunkie wrote: »Is this a rescue vs breeder thread or a pedigree vs mongrel thread because there is a huge difference? There are literally thousands of pedigree dogs in rescues. And cats and dogs again are completely different. There are vast differences between different breeds or types of dogs which is the whole point of why people opt for different dogs. Your family seem to have made a massive error in judgement with your OES, because basicly they have a set list of needs and traits and basic research into the breed should have shown that they were not suited to your family's circumstances. The usual heath problems that occur within various breeds are well documented and I know the problems that may occur with both my dogs, have researched them to death and could easily spot the onset of common problems that exist within both breeds. I know that my pup shouldn't be allowed climb stairs or jump up on furniture while he is still growing as it could lead to problems with his knees later on in life. These are the benefits of knowing what you are getting. They both have been bred for specific functions, have specific instincts and traits that are prominent and I went in well equipped with all the information I need to ensure I can provide the necessary care to satisfy all their needs. Neither of my dogs will be looking for new homes at any stage during their lives as a result.
I can trace my pups ancestry back to the formation of the breed and records exist from before the breed was recognised by the kennel clubs. I got to meet several generations of his immediate family, have ongoing support for his life from the people who bred him, and full health records are available for his family line. If I tried hard enough I could probably estimate what his lifespan would be from his ancestry.
You don't get all of what's contained in the above paragraph for €300 or €400 though, what you get for that price is an animal that is poorly bred by a person with probably no knowledge of what they doing sticking two dogs together so they can make a few quid selling puppies as a sideline, possibly riddled with heath problems. So if the question is are mongrels healthier than pedigree dogs, the answer is - it depends entirely on whom the dogs parents are, what breed/breeds are involved etc. in both cases. Your average total mixed breed mongrel will be healthier than a poorly bred pedigree of questionable origin. Then there's the deliberately, poorly and intensively bred flavour of the month cross-breed - I would imagine there is not much difference between these and your average poorly bred pedigree. What I can say with certainty is the best guarantee of health can be found in a pedigree dog sourced in the way I sourced my pup, from well documented, heath-tested lines deliberately bred for function and longevity by people who actually know what they are doing.
As far as intelligence goes, again it comes down to having some basic understanding of the genetic make-up of your particular dog. With pedigree dogs what drives and motivates them varies between breeds (and crosses) and the information needed to figure out what might work best is freely and widely available. 'Intelligence' is usually used to describe how trainable a dog is and herding dogs are supposedly the most intelligent. I would dispute this as personally I think these are two completely different things. My terrier is extremely untrainable but knows a wide range of commands, from sit to crawl, to dance and turn left and right, easier when you know what motivates her. She has taught me to let the pup out of his crate by pulling toys out of the toybox and messing about beside his crate so he gets wound up and jumps up and down bashing his head of the top of the crate so I would question who the most intelligent is between her and me. So I'd give her 2 out of 10 for trainability because she's ruddy hard work and and 11 out of 10 for intelligence
Cats are a whole different story as there is no real marked difference in their basic behaviour, instincts and mannerisms across different breeds as far as I know, but I've never had a pedigree cat so can't comment much on that front.
As I kid, I grew up on one of those farms that people gave their unwanted 'problem' pets to. In most cases they were gifted to us in the middle of the night without our knowledge. Not one of them was a problem to us, none of them were stupid or wild or aggressive they were all either misunderstood, mistreated, abused, under exercised or in one case brain-damaged - most likely as the result of being hit by a car. None of them was an OES though
See bold.
Different cat breeds do have as much difference in traits as dogs. Ask any Siamese breeder/owner.. they are like no other cat. I bred Siamese for many years and miss them sorely, BUT all cats here now are rescues because of the needs. I find rescue cats have an utter charm of their own and are as close to me as the dogs if not more so.
Siamese are the intelligentsia and athletes of the cat world and infinitely trainable. Cleverer than dogs in many ways. They are people cats. But then so are these two sibling rescues.0 -
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See bold.
Different cat breeds do have as much difference in traits as dogs. Ask any Siamese breeder/owner.. they are like no other cat. I bred Siamese for many years and miss them sorely, BUT all cats here now are rescues because of the needs. I find rescue cats have an utter charm of their own and are as close to me as the dogs if not more so.
Siamese are the intelligentsia and athletes of the cat world and infinitely trainable. Cleverer than dogs in many ways. They are people cats. But then so are these two sibling rescues.
I understand that there will still be differences between breeds of cats but I guess what I was getting at is that there is much less of a marked difference. Collies have an overwhelming urge to herd, retrievers to retrieve, hounds to follow their noses. The differences between breeds of dogs means a vast difference in the potential problems that may occur and the requirements of their day to day care. If someone has only ever owned King Charles Cavaliers and suddenly gets a Husky for some reason expecting they can just do everything they have always done in the same way then they are going to be in for a massive shock. Compare that with a person who has only ever had Persian cats and suddenly gets a Siamese, realisticly how much difference will there be in how they interact with the Siamese and how they go about it's day to day care?0 -
adrenalinjunkie wrote: »I understand that there will still be differences between breeds of cats but I guess what I was getting at is that there is much less of a marked difference. Collies have an overwhelming urge to herd, retrievers to retrieve, hounds to follow their noses. The differences between breeds of dogs means a vast difference in the potential problems that may occur and the requirements of their day to day care. If someone has only ever owned King Charles Cavaliers and suddenly gets a Husky for some reason expecting they can just do everything they have always done in the same way then they are going to be in for a massive shock. Compare that with a person who has only ever had Persian cats and suddenly gets a Siamese, realisticly how much difference will there be in how they interact with the Siamese and how they go about it's day to day care?
A huge difference. As you say you have never had a pedigree cat so you need to believe those who have bred them and know the difference.
Siamese and Persian are worlds apart in care needs, behaviour etc etc.
Cats for us are not the aloof independent creatures many think.0 -
One of the tour bus drivers we met when we were trading at a street market proudly pulled out his mobile phone to show a photo of his "baby"' .. a Siberian Husky. He matched the dog... "And I have a rescue too." Great thinking...0
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daingeanrob wrote: »just a shame they can't rescue dogs.
Someone has to buy the dog first though.0 -
Someone has to buy the dog first though.
Not all of the dogs and cats that end up in rescue were bred, bought and then rejected. Many of them are from unwanted/unplanned litters so they were basically always going to be rejected by humans (not by their own mothers obviously). This is why Spay Week Ireland exists, it's on Sunday 27th May to Sunday 3rd June 2012.0 -
I think the issue is with badly bred dogs or well bred dogs.
agree 100%
too many dogs are bred for how they're gonna look on the end of a lead. i dont know a whole lot on other breeds but i would assume that if you breed for appearance (like so many bull terriers are) that temperment and health take a back seat and thats where behavioural and medical issues arise. its got nothing to do with purebred vs mongrel.0 -
I agree with you that some working breeds have two different types - working and showing, which is very, very sad. I don't believe that any dog from a working breed should be allowed to be a champion until it has proved itself in the ring and in its field of work. Don't want to pick on the labs, but put most of the show labs out in a field and ask them to do a days work, they won't be able to, so how on earth are they great examples of the breed?
However, as you say, you have pedigree, working dogs, so I imagine that the breeders you bought from had done their research, and put dogs together that they really wanted, to get another great working litter. I think the issue of pedigree against show dogs is a different issue to the one being discussed here. If I wanted to buy another siberian husky I wouldn't buy from Eire, I would go to a particular breeder in Northern Ireland, or go over to England or Scotland, as I would want a working type, who probably wouldn't do well in the show ring here, but would be great out on the trails.:)
We do the breeding ourselves and are at generation no 4. We only breed a bitch once, as a replacement dog and the other dogs in the litter go to people who want a working dog. careful thought is given to the father, and the owners are also looking to get a replacement. Money is not important and definitely not a priority. We also leave the registering of the pups to the new owners. Quite a few are not interested, they are not planning to breed themselves. We only have a litter every 5 years.
I think it's immoral to have dog shows, where eugenics are used to decide how 'true' a pedigree dog is. look at farming, I'm sure farmers have seen what happens when you breed cattle according to certain traits. We can cause a lot of suffering.0 -
yellowlabrador wrote: »We do the breeding ourselves and are at generation no 4. We only breed a bitch once, as a replacement dog and the other dogs in the litter go to people who want a working dog. careful thought is given to the father, and the owners are also looking to get a replacement. Money is not important and definitely not a priority. We also leave the registering of the pups to the new owners. Quite a few are not interested, they are not planning to breed themselves. We only have a litter every 5 years.
I think it's immoral to have dog shows, where eugenics are used to decide how 'true' a pedigree dog is. look at farming, I'm sure farmers have seen what happens when you breed cattle according to certain traits. We can cause a lot of suffering.
Is it IKC registration that you can register with? The new owners cannot register your pups, it's the breeder who must do this which is you. Why wouldn't you do this?
I don't disagree with dog shows, without them we wouldn't have breeds as such, probably just working types of dogs. I'm not even sure where the toy breeds would be now as their purpose was just as companions. What I disagree with is some of the breed standards, some like the English bulldog or the gsd have ruined the breed. There is good and bad in everything so yes there's bad people involved in showing who just do it for profit and their ego but as a whole most people who show genuinely love their dog, and if they go on to breed do so with health and temperament in mind. I agree though that some test of fit for function needs to be introduced alongside showing. But I would hate for showing to be abolished altogether.0 -
What I disagree with is some of the breed standards, some like the English bulldog or the gsd have ruined the breed. There is good and bad in everything so yes there's bad people involved in showing who just do it for profit and their ego but as a whole most people who show genuinely love their dog, and if they go on to breed do so with health and temperament in mind. I agree though that some test of fit for function needs to be introduced alongside showing. But I would hate for showing to be abolished altogether.
It does vary a huge amount between different breeds, some of the breed standards state that the dog should be fit for function - especially the working breeds. I've met quite a few gundog breeders who both show and work their dogs, some with a lot more success than others in the show ring. The best way to change anything is from the inside where you can't be dismissed as 'not understanding' and it's not 'you' vs 'them' etc. etc.0 -
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adrenalinjunkie wrote: »What I disagree with is some of the breed standards, some like the English bulldog or the gsd have ruined the breed. There is good and bad in everything so yes there's bad people involved in showing who just do it for profit and their ego but as a whole most people who show genuinely love their dog, and if they go on to breed do so with health and temperament in mind. I agree though that some test of fit for function needs to be introduced alongside showing. But I would hate for showing to be abolished altogether.
It does vary a huge amount between different breeds, some of the breed standards state that the dog should be fit for function - especially the working breeds. I've met quite a few gundog breeders who both show and work their dogs, some with a lot more success than others in the show ring. The best way to change anything is from the inside where you can't be dismissed as 'not understanding' and it's not 'you' vs 'them' etc. etc.
One of the nicest dogs I have ever seen,fantastic coat and teeth.
When he rescued her from a certain minority she was covered in fleas,pee and badly beaten and she was only 8 weeks old,very lucky to survive.
This dog is super intelligent,loyal and obedient with such a loving nature.
Now he paid nothing for her but gave her immediate care and constantly looks after her,she is in perfect health and happy.
A huge percent of people would have rejected her in her state and now she such a beauty.
There is no guarantee that if you pay 1000 euro for a dog she will be free of health issues.
It is nearly all down to the attention and rearing you give to the dog,feed them properly,exercise,games training,affection and love will go along way with any dog,pedigree or not.0
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