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thoughts on purebred dogs and cats?

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Comments

  • #32
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Sappa wrote: »
    ..............................
    There is no guarantee that if you pay 1000 euro for a dog she will be free of health issues.
    ................................

    No of course not, and this has been said above, any animal can get sick, but the value of knowing the breeding history means that you can have expectations and you can prepare for them.

    I was at the doctors recently and was asked about family medical history and I was able to tell them about family incidences of cancer and heart problems and appropriate tests were prescribed, if I was eg a war orphan who had never known my family this would have been impossible. This is the real value of knowing where the genes have come from.


  • #33
    Zapperzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭Zapperzy


    Sappa wrote: »
    There is no guarantee that if you pay 1000 euro for a dog she will be free of health issues.
    It is nearly all down to the attention and rearing you give to the dog,feed them properly,exercise,games training,affection and love will go along way with any dog,pedigree or not.

    Yes and no, a lot is genetics. For example my dog has a luxating patella, from what I understand of it it is primarily genetic meaning one or both of his parents or even further back had it and should not have been bred from, no amount of love or care was going to prevent my dog from getting it, I can manage it through weight management, diet and supplements in the hope it takes the strain off his knee a little but he will probably need surgery. He was a rescue so iv no idea if he was from a woops litter or purposely bred.

    What I'm trying to explain is there are certain conditions (hip/elbow dysplasia, numerous heart conditions, certain eye problems, even diabetes can be genetic) that no amount of love or care in the best home can prevent, dogs with these conditions should never have been bred from. There are certain tests that should be done prior to breeding so we can identify animals with these conditions or pre-disposed to them, these tests or not free or cheap so therefore pups from breeders who do these tests will be more expensive. That's not to say you can automatically presume that someone who charges €1000 has done these but that's where research and common sense come in.


  • #34
    yellowlabrador
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭yellowlabrador


    We do the registering, we register the litter, the papers then need to be transferred to the new owners. Quite a few don't want to. That is because they don't want to breed in the future. There's a lot of work involved, the pups stay for a minimum of 12 weeks, some longer if we start the training. Believe me, it's a couple of hours work a day. You also have to see which puppies will be good workers and what they will be good at. Training involves bringing out what is already there, any mistakes at this stage can ruin a working dog .
    What I object to, is the fact that the judges at shows are too close to their breed, often being breeders themselves. Just have a look at the way they describe the breeds and their characteristics. You end up with caricatures and a lot of inbreeding, heightening the chance of disease.

    We had a pup born with an inturned eyelid, she needed a minor operation, we kept her and she never had a litter .


  • #35
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Sappa wrote: »
    There is no guarantee that if you pay 1000 euro for a dog she will be free of health issues.

    You are paying for a guarantee that to the best of the breeder's knowledge that pup is free of geneticly inherited conditions.
    Sappa wrote: »
    It is nearly all down to the attention and rearing you give to the dog,feed them properly,exercise,games training,affection and love will go along way with any dog,pedigree or not.

    No amount of attention, correct rearing, feeding, exercise, training affection and love will prevent or cure a dog for getting any of the following conditions:

    DNA tests requiring a blood sample -

    http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/GeneticDiseases.jsp?catID=DogsGD

    As you can see, the prices for the actual lab tests are listed and none of them are anywhere near extortionate, so there is no excuse for anyone to not test dogs they are breeding for any of those conditions that are relevant to the heritage of a particular dog.

    Conditions requiring diagnostic tests like syringomyleia for example tends to be more expensive - anyone breeding Cavaliers should be sending their breeding dogs for yearly MRI scans at a cost of over €1000 a pop

    Some more information:
    http://www.bsas.org.uk/downloads/annlproc/Pdf2003/216.pdf
    http://www.bva.co.uk/canine_health_schemes/Canine_Health_Schemes.aspx
    http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/

    There are also a number of not-for-profit organisations who are keeping records and conducting research into geneticly inherited conditions in dogs including The Animal Health Trust and 'Dog Breed Health' which I can't link to as they ask for donations on their sites.

    How do you know your friends dog doesn't have any of these conditions?
    http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/results.php
    or these:
    http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/results.php
    especially since pretty much all conditions inherited geneticly show no obvious signs until the dog becomes older and the problem progresses?


  • #36
    Sappa
    Registered Users Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Sappa


    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    Sappa wrote: »
    There is no guarantee that if you pay 1000 euro for a dog she will be free of health issues.

    You are paying for a guarantee that to the best of the breeder's knowledge that pup is free of geneticly inherited conditions.
    Sappa wrote: »
    It is nearly all down to the attention and rearing you give to the dog,feed them properly,exercise,games training,affection and love will go along way with any dog,pedigree or not.

    No amount of attention, correct rearing, feeding, exercise, training affection and love will prevent or cure a dog for getting any of the following conditions:

    DNA tests requiring a blood sample -

    http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/GeneticDiseases.jsp?catID=DogsGD

    As you can see, the prices for the actual lab tests are listed and none of them are anywhere near extortionate, so there is no excuse for anyone to not test dogs they are breeding for any of those conditions that are relevant to the heritage of a particular dog.

    Conditions requiring diagnostic tests like syringomyleia for example tends to be more expensive - anyone breeding Cavaliers should be sending their breeding dogs for yearly MRI scans at a cost of over €1000 a pop

    Some more information:
    http://www.bsas.org.uk/downloads/annlproc/Pdf2003/216.pdf
    http://www.bva.co.uk/canine_health_schemes/Canine_Health_Schemes.aspx
    http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/

    There are also a number of not-for-profit organisations who are keeping records and conducting research into geneticly inherited conditions in dogs including The Animal Health Trust and 'Dog Breed Health' which I can't link to as they ask for donations on their sites.

    How do you know your friends dog doesn't have any of these conditions?
    http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/results.php
    or these:
    http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/results.php
    especially since pretty much all conditions inherited geneticly show no obvious signs until the dog becomes older and the problem progresses?
    You come accross as awfully shallow,would you use the same logic for children.
    If my dog has a condition I will deal with it and give him the best treatment but I wouldn't turn down a dog because I heard they night inherit a condition or might not.
    Anyway there seems to be no reasoning with you so I'm done here.


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  • #37
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Sappa wrote: »
    You come accross as awfully shallow,would you use the same logic for children.
    If my dog has a condition I will deal with it and give him the best treatment but I wouldn't turn down a dog because I heard they night inherit a condition or might not.
    Anyway there seems to be no reasoning with you so I'm done here.

    Why are you bringing children into this? Its a discussion about dogs and cats:confused:

    The point thats being made is that if the parents are tested for the known genetic issues in the breed and show that they have those health issues, then you don't use them for breeding. Its to try and cut down the number of animals who will suffer from those conditions. I don't think its fair to breed pups that could well suffer from very painful illnesses/conditions when it is possible to cut the odds considerably.

    I must be shallow as well, if I consider genetic health testing essential for responsible breeding. Or maybe I think its actually caring, trying to ensure dogs aren't born to a life of pain. Obviously not all things can be prevented, and yes, I would and have dealt with animals who have been ill and/or hurt but if you could prevent an animal being born with a painful and debilitating condition, why would you not do that?


  • #38
    TehDagsBass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭TehDagsBass


    ISDW wrote: »
    Reputable, responsible breeders won't vary their price dependent on the competition.

    Of course they will. They're running a business and have to compete. Having litters of pups that they can't sell due to them asking for significantly more money than other well reputed breeder down the road is a nightmare scenario for most breeders.

    You're the Irish Sled Dog Welfare from Facebook right? Surely you know the price differences in a sibe pup from a good breeder a few years ago and the price they charge now? It's not down to just the economy either, it's a combination of the economy, the availability of competition and even the amount of backyard bred/puppy farmed animals of the breed around.

    Wherever there is money involved, there is economics involved.
    They will only be breeding in the first place for themselves, very seldom do you only get one pup in a litter, so the others will be sold. With the cost of the health tests, good vet care for the bitch and pups, good food etc, there is no profit in breeding - if done properly, but as said, those breeders don't do it for money anyway.

    I don't know about the margins involved in terms of net profit, however I'm not going to sit here and naively believe they're working to cost and putting themselves at risk financially.
    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    Club/Society registered does not necessarily equal ethical, responsible breeding

    Oh absolutely and I hoped to not imply otherwise. However, if you contact the KC, they put you through to the clubs/socs who pass you along to their breeder members. The more in the club/actively breeding, the more supply and if supply > demand then the prices are going to fall sharply. Likewise, if supply < demand, they can basically charge what they like as they'll have another buyer lined up if the first in line should believe it to be too expensive.

    Sappa wrote: »
    You come accross as awfully shallow,would you use the same logic for children.
    If my dog has a condition I will deal with it and give him the best treatment but I wouldn't turn down a dog because I heard they night inherit a condition or might not.
    Anyway there seems to be no reasoning with you so I'm done here.

    Won't somebody think of the children!?

    I don't understand why people get snotty about people seeking pedigree dogs. Sure, a small and immature percent of them are looking for a dog due to its looks, however most are simply looking for an animal with a traceable history in order to minimize the risks involved in being a pet owner. The aim is to buy a dog whose parents, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, etc have been health tested before they bred to detect some of the many ailments that affect our canine friends suffer, and who would otherwise not have been bred if they didn't conform to certain health standards.

    When there is so much on the line when getting an animal, I don't see what the issue is with aiming to get a dog that has the best chance of living a long, happy and healthy life, that you won't have to see suffer horrible ailments that its parents had and shouldn't have been bred from because of.

    There's no need to get snotty about it, and there's certainly no need to go grasping at emotional straws such as bringing children into an argument that doesn't concern them. (just like those gob****es who bring children to protests to hold placards they don't understand in order to attract media attention grumble grumble grumble :mad:). Your argument is pretty poor also, most responsible people are now getting tests early in pregnancy to detect for irregularities in what is then cells but may at some stage be a child.


  • #39
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    TehDagsBass wrote: »
    Of course they will. They're running a business and have to compete. Having litters of pups that they can't sell due to them asking for significantly more money than other well reputed breeder down the road is a nightmare scenario for most breeders.

    You're the Irish Sled Dog Welfare from Facebook right? Surely you know the price differences in a sibe pup from a good breeder a few years ago and the price they charge now? It's not down to just the economy either, it's a combination of the economy, the availability of competition and even the amount of backyard bred/puppy farmed animals of the breed around.

    Wherever there is money involved, there is economics involved.

    I don't know about the margins involved in terms of net profit, however I'm not going to sit here and naively believe they're working to cost and putting themselves at risk financially.

    Sorry, totally disagree. I'm not talking about puppy farmers and BYBs, I'm talking about reputable, responsible breeders, who breed for themselves as has been stated. These people are most certainly not breeding for money, and aren't running a business. Some friends of mine, the only kennel on the island of Ireland that I would now consider buying a pup from, have a litter due very soon. They will have absolutely no problems whatsoever finding homes for their pups, and their prices will be no different to previous litters. I won't go into further detail, as its up to them what they say, but the sire isn't from this country, so all sorts of extra expenses have to be considered when people put this much thought into breeding. I imagine they will keep most of the litter, if not all, so it most certainly isn't a business.


  • #40
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    ISDW wrote: »
    Sorry, totally disagree. I'm not talking about puppy farmers and BYBs, I'm talking about reputable, responsible breeders, who breed for themselves as has been stated. These people are most certainly not breeding for money, and aren't running a business. Some friends of mine, the only kennel on the island of Ireland that I would now consider buying a pup from, have a litter due very soon. They will have absolutely no problems whatsoever finding homes for their pups, and their prices will be no different to previous litters. I won't go into further detail, as its up to them what they say, but the sire isn't from this country, so all sorts of extra expenses have to be considered when people put this much thought into breeding. I imagine they will keep most of the litter, if not all, so it most certainly isn't a business.

    agree.

    im friends with a very reputable breeder of old type staffies from UK. he's had many show winning dogs and displays his kennels openly on his website. his bitches only ever have 2 litters, always with great dogs and he loses money everytime.

    the breeders we need are that type that put bettering the breed before profit. i cant see how any breeder that does it properly can make much money yet some are making a living from it?


  • #41
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Sappa wrote: »
    You come accross as awfully shallow,would you use the same logic for children.
    If my dog has a condition I will deal with it and give him the best treatment but I wouldn't turn down a dog because I heard they night inherit a condition or might not.
    Anyway there seems to be no reasoning with you so I'm done here.

    It becomes pretty apparent which side of a debate holds the most value when one side has absolutely nothing to offer by way of backing up their arguments, starts hurling abuse and declarations of people being unreasonable, making comments on something that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter, then declares themselves out :rolleyes:


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