What do Irish Catholics actually believe in?

lazygal

Not a bashing thread, more curiosity.
Any Irish 'Catholic' I know doesn't really follow or believe in a lot of the teachings. I know gay men who go to mass every week. I know friends of mine who use contraception and have sex before marriage. One woman even tried to argue that the host at communion is 'symbolic', and took grave offence when I pointed out if she believed that, she was Protestant. So why call yourself a Catholic if you disagree with or just don't follow most of the core teachings?

Sindri

Well mostly they are just 'cultural Catholics' and they also, I would think gain some comfort from it.

Lionel Messy

They believe in god, as far as i know.

chin_grin

Protestants don't believe in transubstantiation (the 'bread being turned in to the body of christ bit'). When I was growing up, still dough-headed and innocent I thought it was a metaphor....then I was told that 'No, it's the actual body'. It's one of the many reasons why "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid..." :pac:

That and I believe organised religion to epitomise evil on this earth. It's caused us to look down on our fellow man\woman and wars over pieces of land. Yes, I may sound very 'tree huggery', but I just can't grow dreadlocks or go a day or two without showering.

Run_to_da_hills

That the Pope is their savior instead of Jesus Christ on this planet

Duggys Housemate

The substance changes not the accidents. Not that most Catholics know that either.

Seachmall

lazygal wrote: »

One woman even tried to argue that the host at communion is 'symbolic', and took grave offence when I pointed out if she believed that, she was Protestant.

That irks me. I find that irksome.

allibastor

that the priests are above being answerable to the law??

chin_grin

Seachmall wrote: »

That irks me. I find that irksome.

How's that word of the day calendar going? :pac:

haminka

I think it's pretty much individual. I know Catholics who are really very good people and believe in God and the teachings of the Church plus Fatima and Lourdes miracle and I know people whose only relationship with God is to worry who to invite for their child's Confirmation bash ...

Feathers

lazygal wrote: »

Not a bashing thread, more curiosity.
Any Irish 'Catholic' I know doesn't really follow or believe in a lot of the teachings. I know gay men who go to mass every week. I know friends of mine who use contraception and have sex before marriage. One woman even tried to argue that the host at communion is 'symbolic', and took grave offence when I pointed out if she believed that, she was Protestant. So why call yourself a Catholic if you disagree with or just don't follow most of the core teachings?

IMO, there is the dogma of the Church (3 persons, 1 god; transubstantiation, etc) and then there are rules of the Church (don't eat meat on a Friday, take your hat off in the church, etc.)

& disagreeing with the second doesn't make you not a Catholic, although I'd agree that your friend talking about the symbolism of the Eucharist sounds protestant in her beliefs. Baffles me why people say the likes of the guys talking about women priests should join the CoI though. It doesn't mean they don't believe the articles of faith within the church.

Seachmall

chin_grin wrote: »

How's that word of the day calendar going? :pac:

It's quite louche*.





*May or may not be correct use of the word "louche".

chin_grin

Seachmall wrote: »

It's quite louche*.





*May or may not be correct use of the word "louche".

Good morning, that's a nice tnetennba.

Dravokivich

The holy trinity that is each leaf on a shamrock and Paddy.

Penn

The cultural Catholic's Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of Heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from Heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he arose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

chin_grin

Dravokivich wrote: »

The holy trinity that is each leaf on a shamrock and Paddy.

<counts>

................wha?

Penn wrote: »

The cultural Catholic's Nicene Creed:

And that was drilled in to my head that I still remember the words (Brainwashed). They didn't make sense then and they still don't. Although I used to laugh when I would hear this being 'recited' in church. It'd sound something like this:

mumble mumble mumble mumble mumumumumumble...and so on.

Dravokivich

chin_grin wrote: »

<counts>

................wha?

St Patrick and the story of him presenting christianity to the Irish with a shamrock.

chin_grin

Dravokivich wrote: »

St Patrick and the story of him presenting christianity to the Irish with a shamrock.

Ah yeah that ol' tale of the holy Welshman coming over here and ridding us of our Pagan ways. What a great man to celebrate! (I'm trying to be sarcastic, but I just don't know any more....).

Penn

chin_grin wrote: »

And that was drilled in to my head that I still remember the words (Brainwashed). They didn't make sense then and they still don't. Although I used to laugh when I would hear this being 'recited' in church. It'd sound something like this:

mumble mumble mumble mumble mumumumumumble...and so on.

It's amazing when you actually start to realise what people are saying in church. I got chills the first time I realised everyone in unison chanted "IT IS RIGHT TO GIVE HIM THANKS AND PRAISE"

Really, how far away is that from chanting "THE LEADER IS GOOD, THE LEADER IS GREAT. WE SURRENDER OUR WILL AS OF THIS DATE"

lazygal

Penn wrote: »

It's amazing when you actually start to realise what people are saying in church. I got chills the first time I realised everyone in unison chanted "IT IS RIGHT TO GIVE HIM THANKS AND PRAISE"

Really, how far away is that from chanting "THE LEADER IS GOOD, THE LEADER IS GREAT. WE SURRENDER OUR WILL AS OF THIS DATE"

And then go out for a nice bean harvesting session. When I do attend mass (weddings and funerals only) that f-ing prayer is STILL in my brain and I can't help saying the responses along in my head.

*Shakes fist at Catholic upbringing*

CardBordWindow

Penn wrote: »

The cultural Catholic's Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of Heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from Heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he arose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

that's the one I remember from when I used to go to mass. The last time i went (for a funeral) it had been changed in places.
Had people been saying it wrong for years that they had to change it or something???

Cee-Jay-Cee

My parents are Catholic and so therefore i was baptised and went to Catholic church on sundays up until i decided i no longer wanted to go and listen to a man who is single and never (supposed to) had a sexual relationship with a woman and no (declared) children preach about family life and how to raise children. What made it worse was that priests were dictated to be rome on what to preach each sunday and the older i got the more ridiculous, outdated and downright wrong the sermons became.

The Catholic church is a farce and i no longer have any respect for it...however i still believe in God and i have strong faith. I go to mass only when i have to (baptisms/funerals/weddings) and point blank refuse after that.

The Catholic church is slowly but surely destroying itself from the inside, the sooner is totally collapses and disappears, the better.

Chuck Stone

If you eat pancakes on a Friday you will end up going to Muslim heaven instead of Catholic heaven so be sure to only eat only prawn cocktail crisps to be on the safe side.

Also, you can't throw stones at Protestants because Jesus lived in a greenhouse.

Or something along those lines.

LittleBook

Penn wrote: »

It's amazing when you actually start to realise what people are saying in church. I got chills the first time I realised everyone in unison chanted "IT IS RIGHT TO GIVE HIM THANKS AND PRAISE"

Chanting is right, I'd be surprised if most people give any real thought anymore to the words that were drilled into them as children. As the church well knows, indoctrination is a powerful tool.

lazygal wrote: »

So why call yourself a Catholic if you disagree with or just don't follow most of the core teachings?

Force of habit, no pun intended ... or maybe it is.

krudler

Penn wrote: »

It's amazing when you actually start to realise what people are saying in church. I got chills the first time I realised everyone in unison chanted "IT IS RIGHT TO GIVE HIM THANKS AND PRAISE"

Really, how far away is that from chanting "THE LEADER IS GOOD, THE LEADER IS GREAT. WE SURRENDER OUR WILL AS OF THIS DATE"

It must be a rare occasion everyone in a church actually knew the correct words :pac: *mumblemumblemumble LAMB OF GOD mumblemumble*

68Murph68

Basically Irish Catholics in my experience believe

1) you get a child baptised to get into school
2) First Communion and Confirmation are 1) so that the kid will get money and wont be left out and 2) to have a day out
3) Marriage - you get married in a church because a church is where people have proper romantic weddings in films/ where your parents got married
4) Funerals - Less hassle to have a church funeral. What the alternative?
5) Christmas - Midnight Mass/ Mass on Christmas morning is a nice ritual but it doesn't mean anything really.
6) Heaven is a nice idea and less scarier than the alternatives even though it doesn't hold up to any sort of critical thinking
7) Religion in schools is fine because you have to teach kids right from wrong :rolleyes:
8) Confession is really weird and creepy

Their real opinion on the whole theology business of the church
Virgin birth - pull the other one
Jesus the son of God - no not really
Jesus died and came back three days later - yeah right
Transubstantiation - you're having a laugh
Children are born in a state of sin and thus need to be baptised to be cleansed - feck off

Hardly any Irish Catholics believe that any of the following are in any way actually morally wrong
-sex outside marriage
-contraception
-homosexuality
-divorce

Most believe that
-Priests shouldn't be celibate
-The Pope is not infallible and is a bit of a bollix
-The organisation itself is massively corrupt and there are some serious bad apples.

This is based on my experience with my family (parents, siblings, cousins) and friends. My family would all identify as Catholic (that's what they put down on the census) All have been married in churches. My sister had no problem with me being godfather to her son (even though I told her I believed it was morally wrong to baptism him - her response was "yeah but that doesn't matter" :rolleyes: ; I baptised him in the name of Satan, Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Batman while babysitting him one day and I reckon that I this baptisms cancel out the other one)

DERPY HOOFS

I believe

LimGal

The power of the spud.

krudler

68Murph68 wrote: »

Basically Irish Catholics in my experience believe

1) you get a child baptised to get into school
2) First Communion and Confirmation are 1) so that the kid will get money and wont be left out and 2) to have a day out
3) Marriage - you get married in a church because a church is where people have proper romantic weddings in films/ where your parents got married
4) Funerals - Less hassle to have a church funeral. What the alternative?
5) Christmas - Midnight Mass/ Mass on Christmas morning is a nice ritual but it doesn't mean anything really.
6) Heaven is a nice idea and less scarier than the alternatives even though it doesn't hold up to any sort of critical thinking
7) Religion in schools is fine because you have to teach kids right from wrong :rolleyes:
8) Confession is really weird and creepy

Their real opinion on the whole theology business of the church
Virgin birth - pull the other one
Jesus the son of God - no not really
Jesus died and came back three days later - yeah right
Transubstantiation - you're having a laugh
Children are born in a state of sin and thus need to be baptised to be cleansed - feck off

Hardly any Irish Catholics believe that any of the following are in any way actually morally wrong
-sex outside marriage
-contraception
-homosexuality
-divorce

Most believe that
-Priests shouldn't be celibate
-The Pope is not infallible and is a bit of a bollix
-The organisation itself is massively corrupt and there are some serious bad apples.

This is based on my experience with my family (parents, siblings, cousins) and friends. My family would all identify as Catholic (that's what they put down on the census) All have been married in churches. My sister had no problem with me being godfather to her son (even though I told her I believed it was morally wrong to baptism him - her response was "yeah but that doesn't matter" :rolleyes: ; I baptised him in the name of Satan, Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Batman while babysitting him one day and I reckon that I this baptisms cancel out the other one)

Nailed it, its probably the only organisation where a lot of its members dont believe in the majority of its rules and teachings, yet call themselves members anyway, its kinda baffling.

they believe in the right to call themselves catholic no matter how much of actual catholicism they disagree with

super_furry

Know what I miss? Limbo. When were we supposed to stop believing in it?

Nothingbetter2d

i believe everyone should not listen to the rantings of long since dead people about a person who may have existed but in reality didnt have any godly powers and nor was his mother Mary a virgin. She loved someone else's cock and then lied to Joseph about it because she would have been stoned to death if she admitted it. Even Jesus himself banged a hooker. as for walking on water or healing the sick.... grain at the time often had a fungus (Ergot Poisoning) which is known to cause hallucinations.... it happened again in the US which led to the witch hunts.

Mr. Presentable

Buggery and subsequent absolution

marty1985

Penn wrote: »

It's amazing when you actually start to realise what people are saying in church. I got chills the first time I realised everyone in unison chanted "IT IS RIGHT TO GIVE HIM THANKS AND PRAISE"

Really, how far away is that from chanting "THE LEADER IS GOOD, THE LEADER IS GREAT. WE SURRENDER OUR WILL AS OF THIS DATE"

Yeah I always thought the same. However, this little exchange is essential for the mass. It has a long history, it's found in ancient rites and in the earliest church liturgies. The Latin word for this part is the sursum corda ("hearts lifted"), and the bit that freaked you out actually indicates assent to the priest continuing to offer the rest of the Eucharistic prayer for the people, and it is the necessity of such assent which accounts for the universality of the little exchange.

krudler

super_furry wrote: »

Know what I miss? Limbo. When were we supposed to stop believing in it?

Limbo exists, its just called the social welfare office these days.

Penn

krudler wrote: »

Nailed it, its probably the only organisation where a lot of its members dont believe in the majority of its rules and teachings, yet call themselves members anyway, its kinda baffling.

What's more baffling are the people who go too far and believe everything like Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark. Or the story of Jesus curing a woman who'd been bleeding for 12 years. Which supposedly happened 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago, where if someone bled for about 12 hours they'd be so infected they'd be killed just to be put out of their misery.

Or Jesus alone in the desert, being tempted by the Devil before being saved by the angels. Of course, as Jesus was alone, the only person who could have told that story to anyone was... Jesus. Bet he also told his disciples that he could turn invisible but only when no-one was looking at him.

I'm sure the Bible has some nice stories, but it cannot and should not be taken literally. That's one thing I'll agree with the a la carte Catholics on

philstar

Sindri wrote: »

Well mostly they are just 'cultural Catholics' and they also, I would think gain some comfort from it.

cultural catholic whats that?

Penn

marty1985 wrote: »

Yeah I always thought the same. However, this little exchange is essential for the mass. It has a long history, it's found in ancient rites and in the earliest church liturgies. The Latin word for this part is the sursum corda ("hearts lifted"), and the bit that freaked you out actually indicates assent to the priest continuing to offer the rest of the Eucharistic prayer for the people, and it is the necessity of such assent which accounts for the universality of the little exchange.

NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA LEADER! NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA LEADER! LEADER! LEADER! LEADER!

marty1985

philstar wrote: »

cultural catholic whats that?

The New Atheist's worst enemy.

Penn

philstar wrote: »

cultural catholic whats that?

People who only really go to Mass, get married in church, have children baptised/make communion/confirmation etc simply because it's the "done thing" and what is perceived to be the normal way of doing things and that anyone who doesn't do these things is weird and unusual.

Not to be confused with the "a la carte" Catholics, who do believe in most of the religion, but decide to ignore whatever they don't like about it (condoms, sex before marriage, homosexuality, divorce etc) for whatever reason (not relevant in today's society, My God wouldn't agree with that, I like sex etc)

krudler

Penn wrote: »

What's more baffling are the people who go too far and believe everything like Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark. Or the story of Jesus curing a woman who'd been bleeding for 12 years. Which supposedly happened 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago, where if someone bled for about 12 hours they'd be so infected they'd be killed just to be put out of their misery.

Or Jesus alone in the desert, being tempted by the Devil before being saved by the angels. Of course, as Jesus was alone, the only person who could have told that story to anyone was... Jesus. Bet he also told his disciples that he could turn invisible but only when no-one was looking at him.

I'm sure the Bible has some nice stories, but it cannot and should not be taken literally. That's one thing I'll agree with the a la carte Catholics on

or the old, oh Noah and the whale/talking snakes/burning bushes was a METAPHOR, Jesus walking on water/becoming the first zombie was FACT. errr, it comes from the same book, why is some open to interpretation other parts not? that and god being a genocidal maniac in the old testament and a loving, all forgiving nice guy in the new, I guess everyone goes through their wild phase and then calm down once the first kid arrives though. Its a book of fables and morality tales written hundreds of years after the supposed events, its like the worst wikipedia entry ever, Jesus thus rose from the dead [citation needed]

marty1985

Penn wrote: »

I'm sure the Bible has some nice stories, but it cannot and should not be taken literally. That's one thing I'll agree with the a la carte Catholics on

And, you know, the Pope.

OP, I think Christianity and perhaps in particular Catholicism is the most scrutinised religion in the world because they are so clear on written rules and seem to put less emphasis on rituals. But the doing part should be as important as the believing part.

marty1985

krudler wrote: »

errr, it comes from the same book, why is some open to interpretation other parts not?

Not sure if you're just having fun or actually serious.

In fairness, the bible is not all "the same book" (but I suspect you know this). It's a collection of about 66 books. Some written centuries and centuries apart by different people in different places. The reason they say some is literal and some not is because it is subdivided into genres (history, prophecy, laws, poetry, proverbs, biography, letters, emails etc).

elefant

Penn wrote: »

NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA LEADER! NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA LEADER! LEADER! LEADER! LEADER!

BATMAN!

I mean, Jesus!

Seachmall

marty1985 wrote: »

In fairness, the bible is not all "the same book" (but I suspect you know this). It's a collection of about 66 books. Some written centuries and centuries apart by different people in different places. The reason they say some is literal and some not is because it is subdivided into genres (history, prophecy, laws, poetry, proverbs, biography, letters, emails etc).

Is there an objective method to distinguish between these genres?

philstar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnao5SBunfI

marty1985

Seachmall wrote: »

Is there an objective method to distinguish between these genres?

Having never studied the bible, I'm not sure. But I would discard the literal interpretations of fundamentalists and a lot of the New Atheists (that they are similar is no surprise as these movements often grow in opposition to each other), use common sense as a rule of thumb, and check with a teacher or someone who is into theology. Most churches will have teachings based on their official interpretations, so check with your church too.

I Heart Internet

As a Roman Catholic, the Nicene Creed provides and excellent summary of what I believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Current english translation is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use#Latin_Rite

I've posted this before on AH as a statement, generally, of my catholic beliefs but some were unhappy because it wasn't my own words or wasn't snappy enough. It's a summary so its hard to make a summary of a summary without loosing stuff in the process.

I have no doubt many catholics don't believe certain parts of this or have simply forgotten what they believe. Fair enough.

I think its a very good summary of what the catholic church believes in.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of gags here on AH for this nominally "non-catholic-bashing thread" but for the OP and others interested, the nicene creed is the answer to your question.

Seachmall

marty1985 wrote: »

Having never studied the bible, I'm not sure. But I would discard the literal interpretations of fundamentalists and a lot of the New Atheists (that they are similar is no surprise as these movements often grow in opposition to each other), use common sense as a rule of thumb, and check with a teacher or someone who is into theology. Most churches will have teachings based on their official interpretations, so check with your church too.

"Probably not".

Which brings us back to krudler's point.

marty1985

Seachmall wrote: »

"Probably not".

Which brings us back to krudler's point.

Probably not what?

In fairness to the poster, I don't think he made any point except poke fun at biblical literalists which seems out of place in a thread where lazygal is asking about Catholics.

Seachmall

marty1985 wrote: »

Probably not what?

In fairness to the poster, I don't think he made any point except poke fun at biblical literalists which seems out of place in a thread where lazygal is asking about Catholics.

"Probably no clearly defined method to distinguish between literal and symbolic genres of the Bible".

If there's no objective and clear method to do so then it's subjective interpretation.

If it's subjective interpretation then the distinctions are arbitrary.

If the distinctions are arbitrary arguing "this is literal, but that is symbolic" is not a valid argument.

I think that's krudler's point.