What do Irish Catholics actually believe in?

prinz

joseph brand wrote: »

Irish Catholics are more like Protestants these days. Soon, most of them will be Atheist. Slowly but surely. :cool:

We'll all be dead and buried by then if the last census is anything to go by.

smokedeels

How can a billion people agree on such precise ideas regarding the meaning of life?

It makes no sense to me

Also, if I believed in a higher power I wouldn't want to access that being via the Roman Empire.

catbear

prinz wrote: »

We'll all be dead and buried by then if the last census is anything to go by.

And because of the census the RCC still retains it's influences in areas where popular consensus says they shouldn't, all because people who don't agree with Roman rule still tick the box that says RCC. It would be far better if they just said unaffiliated if it's a struggle for them.

prinz

catbear wrote: »

It would be far better if they just said unaffiliated if it's a struggle for them.

I agree.

Run_to_da_hills

prinz wrote: »

Christian. Not Roman Catholic, although with a small c you are close.

There is no such thing as a "Roman Catholic Christian" Its a contradiction of terminology. Would you honesty believe Christ would want his followers supporting the largest untouchable pedophile ring on the face of this planet?.

Every time one puts a penny in the plate one is feeding the bloodline of these corrupt monsters.

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is no such thing as a "Roman Catholic Christian" Its a contradiction of terminology. Would you honesty believe Christ would want his followers supporting the largest untouchable pedophile ring on the face of this planet?.

Every time one puts a penny in the plate one is feeding the bloodline of these corrupt monsters.

....bloodline eh? How do ye work that one out?

prinz

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Would you honesty believe Christ would want his followers supporting the largest untouchable pedophile ring on the face of this planet?..

What do ye reckon his opinion would be of scaremongering conspiracy theory nonsense?

Run_to_da_hills

Nodin wrote: »

....bloodline eh? How do ye work that one out?

Keeping the Catholic Church alive, the only way to kill it of is to stop feeding it.

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Keeping the Catholic Church alive, the only way to kill it of is to stop feeding it.

No, no. "bloodline". How is there a bloodline involved?

catbear

Maybe it's a blood drinking "head vampire" analogy.

prinz

If you read Dan Brown backwards it explains it all.

Run_to_da_hills

prinz wrote: »

What do ye reckon his opinion would be of scaremongering conspiracy theory nonsense?

For starters Mr Ratsinger is well up with Free masonry which I believe is condemned outright by the RC.This can be noted by his continuous use of messianic hand shakes and occult symbolism at various open air spectaculars he hosts.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he is up there with Obama and the rest of the global elite m trying to restructure the worlds religions, political parties and financial markets together under one single umbrella group.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

Run_to_da_hills, be warned that this topic will not be dragged in the direction you want to drag it in.

And yes, God asked me to tell you.

prinz

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

For starters Mr Ratsinger is well up with Free masonry which I believe is condemned outright by the RC.This can be noted by his continuous use of messianic hand shakes and occult symbolism at various open air spectaculars he hosts.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he is up there with Obama and the rest of the global elite m trying to harmonize the worlds religions, political parties and financial markets together under one single umbrella group.

... one minute he's accused of driving the religions apart, the next he's part of some global plot to bring them together. :pac:

Obama and Ratzinger in secret meetings in the Temple of Doom... with "the global elite"... sacrificing pop stars to the 666 beast, first Michael Jackson, then Whitney.... Jedward better keep an eye out (or join the Masons).

I Heart Internet

Reading this and other catholic church/anti-catholic church threads on AH I've concluded that anti-catholic church folk and the traditionalist wing of the catholic church (of which I'm familiar with and somewhat sympathetic) have at least one major thing in common -

they both have remarkably strict, unbending and exclusive notions on what it means to "qualify" as a Roman Catholic.

Its always struck me that many anti-catholic church folk on AH cannot fathom and, indeed, get quite agitated by people who describe themselves as catholic but don't pass the "test" of believing in 100% of what the chuch teaches and doing 100% of what it advises we do.

In that sense, these people are a lot like extreme traditionalist catholics. Except less fun :rolleyes:

I would humbly suggest that both extreme, by-the-book catholics and anti-catholic moaning michaels need to understand that the catholic church is very broad, full of sinners and very diverse.

Canis Lupus

I Heart Internet wrote: »

they both have remarkable strict, unbending and exclusive notions on what it means to "qualify" as a Roman Catholic.

That's because the 'rules' are strict. You either believe what the catholic church teaches or you're not a catholic and as a lot of people have said most 'catholics' in Ireland are in fact protestant.

You can't call yourself a vegetarian and eat meat and you can't call yourself catholic if you don't believe in stuff like transubstantiation etc.

catbear

If the next census had these choices
RCC
CofI
Christian
other

How many would choose Christian over the others. It might make it easy for some but difficult for others.
However if RCC were taxed at income like in Germany I'd imagine we'd have fewer Roman Catholics in Ireland.

Pushtrak

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Reading this and other catholic church/anti-catholic church threads on AH I've concluded that anti-catholic church folk and the traditionalist wing of the catholic church (of which I'm familiar with and somewhat sympathetic) have at least one major thing in common -

Surely there is some objective measure by which one can say a person is no longer a Catholic in anything other than self identity. What kind of things would this list include for you? That is, at what point is someone no longer a Catholic whether they want to think they are or not? Is Catholic just a meaningless word? Is it whatever a person says it is?

I Heart Internet

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's because the 'rules' are strict. You either believe what the catholic church teaches or you're not a catholic and as a lot of people have said most 'catholics' in Ireland are in fact protestant.

You can't call yourself a vegetarian and eat meat and you can't call yourself catholic if you don't believe in stuff like transubstantiation etc.

People can call themselves what they like....

I agree with you that there are a number of absolute no-nos (although again, this isn't held by everyone describing themselves as catholic) like not believing in transubstantiation, the holy trinity, the divinity of Jesus, etc.

But there ARE areas where there is a diversity of opinion.

You're kinda making my point for me -

Canis Lupus wrote: »

You either believe what the catholic church teaches or you're not a catholic

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

For starters ........umbrella group.

Grand. Now - the bloodline thing...whats that about, please?

Pushtrak

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People can call themselves what they like....

I agree with you that there are a number of absolute no-nos (although again, this isn't held by everyone describing themselves as catholic) like not believing in transubstantiation, the holy trinity, the divinity of Jesus, etc.

But there ARE areas where there is a diversity of opinion.

You're kinda making my point for me -

You just agreed one who agrees with Catholic teaching isn't Catholic. And you gave examples of no-nos. The Catholic Church only has the power it does in Ireland on the strength of the non-Catholics who self identify as Catholic. I can't see ones religion being an issue in getting placement in primary schools if the reality of the theological landscape was better represented.

Nodin wrote: »

Grand. Now - the bloodline thing...whats that about, please?

There was a mod warning not to talk about the conspiracy stuff. So, don't encourage it.

dvpower

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You're kinda making my point for me -

No. He's strongly disagreeing with your point, not making it.

Icepick

lazygal wrote: »

I know gay men who go to mass every week.

That's like black men going to a Ku Klux Klan meeting.

tony_soprano

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's because the 'rules' are strict. You either believe what the catholic church teaches or you're not a catholic and as a lot of people have said most 'catholics' in Ireland are in fact protestant.

You can't call yourself a vegetarian and eat meat and you can't call yourself catholic if you don't believe in stuff like transubstantiation etc.

in my experience , most catholics are less orthodox and by the book than protestants

Yamanoto

tony_soprano wrote: »

in my experience , most catholics are less orthodox and by the book than protestants

Also less prone to attending village fête's and the consumption of Damsen Jam.

tony_soprano

Yamanoto wrote: »

Also less prone to attending village fête's and the consumption of Damsen Jam.

yeah , rasberry would be decadent

LordSutch

Yamanoto wrote: »

Also less prone to attending village fête's and the consumption of Damsen Jam.

Very good, I should add that to my list of differences in post#60

Table Top Joe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People can call themselves what they like....


They can of course,doesnt make it so though

I agree with you that there are a number of absolute no-nos (although again, this isn't held by everyone describing themselves as catholic) like not believing in transubstantiation, the holy trinity, the divinity of Jesus, etc.

But there ARE areas where there is a diversity of opinion.

You're kinda making my point for me -

As has been pointed out above your argument makes as much sense as the vegetarian eating meat,there are far more ways to Christ than through the RCC you know? Jesus would have nothing to do with the RCC if he was around and you couldnt possibly say he would(with a straight face at least)

krudler

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Reading this and other catholic church/anti-catholic church threads on AH I've concluded that anti-catholic church folk and the traditionalist wing of the catholic church (of which I'm familiar with and somewhat sympathetic) have at least one major thing in common -

they both have remarkably strict, unbending and exclusive notions on what it means to "qualify" as a Roman Catholic.

Its always struck me that many anti-catholic church folk on AH cannot fathom and, indeed, get quite agitated by people who describe themselves as catholic but don't pass the "test" of believing in 100% of what the chuch teaches and doing 100% of what it advises we do.

In that sense, these people are a lot like extreme traditionalist catholics. Except less fun :rolleyes:

I would humbly suggest that both extreme, by-the-book catholics and anti-catholic moaning michaels need to understand that the catholic church is very broad, full of sinners and very diverse.

Its actually the cultural catholics who can't fathom that ignoring the majority of teachings of a church but calling yourself a member is pretty stupid.

Duggys Housemate

krudler wrote: »

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Reading this and other catholic church/anti-catholic church threads on AH I've concluded that anti-catholic church folk and the traditionalist wing of the catholic church (of which I'm familiar with and somewhat sympathetic) have at least one major thing in common -

they both have remarkably strict, unbending and exclusive notions on what it means to "qualify" as a Roman Catholic.

Its always struck me that many anti-catholic church folk on AH cannot fathom and, indeed, get quite agitated by people who describe themselves as catholic but don't pass the "test" of believing in 100% of what the chuch teaches and doing 100% of what it advises we do.

In that sense, these people are a lot like extreme traditionalist catholics. Except less fun :rolleyes:

I would humbly suggest that both extreme, by-the-book catholics and anti-catholic moaning michaels need to understand that the catholic church is very broad, full of sinners and very diverse.

Its actually the cultural catholics who can't fathom that ignoring the majority of teachings of a church but calling yourself a member is pretty stupid.

Cultural Catholicism just means you do Catholic things when it comes to the major events in life. It isn't real belief, it's just culture. That's fairly common , the Japanese pray to deities they don't believe in, as most are atheist and have Shinto or Buddhist ceremonies for traditions sake.

That's where we are with cultural Catholicism, a perfectly simple concept. Only the angry atheist would object, but they are generally despised by the sane.

tony_soprano

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Cultural Catholicism just means you do Catholic things when it comes to the major events in life. It isn't real belief, it's just culture. That's fairly common , the Japanese pray to deities they don't believe in, as most are atheist and have Shinto or Buddhist ceremonies for traditions sake.

That's where we are with cultural Catholicism, a perfectly simple concept. Only the angry atheist would object, but they are generally despised by the sane.

could an athiest ( who was raised catholic ) still consider themselves culturally catholic ?

richard dawkins has refered to himself as culturally anglican on occasion

Nodin

tony_soprano wrote: »

could an athiest ( who was raised catholic ) still consider themselves culturally catholic ?

richard dawkins has refered to himself as culturally anglican on occasion

.......he can't make up his mind on anything? Ye'd never know it.

Pushtrak

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Cultural Catholicism just means you do Catholic things when it comes to the major events in life. It isn't real belief, it's just culture. That's fairly common , the Japanese pray to deities they don't believe in, as most are atheist and have Shinto or Buddhist ceremonies for traditions sake.

Shinto gods are ancestor worship. When one dies, they become kami, which is their gods. I wouldn't object to Catholicism if it wasn't for how ingrained it is, with it taking over education as much as it does, primarily.

That's where we are with cultural Catholicism, a perfectly simple concept. Only the angry atheist would object, but they are generally despised by the sane.

Trying to conflate atheists with insanity? While believing in things that can not be proved.. Hm. There is actually a thin line between religiosity and insanity. And it is often crossed, for instance with those parents who kill their kids because they think god tells them to. Or, denying medical treatments because it is enshrined by faith.

lividduck

What do Irish Catholics believe in?
Child sexual abuse.
Defending child sexual abusers.
Defending child sexual abuse on the ground "shure wassint eveyone at it in dem days"
Defending those who knowningly swore child victims to secrecy and allowed further abuse to be perpetrated on the grounds that" shur wassint everone at it in dem days and how could anyone know it would harm the kids anyway"
For evidence of the above watch Cardinal Sean Bradys RTE interview on RTE 2/5/2012 where he involkes all of the above plus the Nazi defence at Nueremburg " I voss only obeyink orderz!"
If you are Irish and claim to be a Catholic you are choosing to support the above, end of!

InTheTrees

tony_soprano wrote: »

could an athiest ( who was raised catholic ) still consider themselves culturally catholic ?

richard dawkins has refered to himself as culturally anglican on occasion

Absolutely. "culturally" means you're only doing it for the appearances/tradition and don't have any belief in it.

cartell_best

I'm Irish and Catholic...how dare you take such a line!!!! you breed contempt that only the church I thought was capable of! Alas, I have been proven wrong!

lividduck

cartell_best wrote: »

I'm Irish and Catholic...how dare you take such a line!!!! you breed contempt that only the church I thought was capable of! Alas, I have been proven wrong!

It is now impossible to claim to be Irish and Catholic without accepting that your leader Sean Brady knowingly facilated child sexual abuse on the basis that his only loyalty is to the Pope and canon law, he is a faciltator of a paedophile as are, albeit indirectly, all of those who accept his authority.

cartell_best

lividduck wrote: »

It is now impossible to claim to be Irish and Catholic without accepting that your leader Sean Brady knowingly facilated child sexual abuse on the basis that his only loyalty is to the Pope and canon law, he is a faciltator of a paedophile as are, albeit indirectly, all of those who accept his authority.

Is that not a contradiction in terms on your behalf? you talk as if he represents me? that monster does not represent me or anything or anyone that represents good!

tony_soprano

InTheTrees wrote: »

Absolutely. "culturally" means you're only doing it for the appearances/tradition and don't have any belief in it.

hold on , richard dawkins doesnt attend church at all AFAIK , he,s surely another level of cultural anglican , i suspect he sees protestantism as having played a key role in shaping england this past five centurys in terms of learning , commerce , culture and more or less subscribes to this culture minus the god part

lividduck

cartell_best wrote: »

Is that not a contradiction in terms on your behalf? you talk as if he represents me? that monster does not represent me or anything or anyone that represents good!

If you still claim to be an irish catholic then you MUST as a point of canon law accept him as your Cardinal, by doing so you give him a mandate to defend his behaviour, thats your choice, live with it!

cartell_best

lividduck wrote: »

If you still claim to be an irish catholic then you MUST as a point of canon law accept him as your Cardinal, by doing so you give him a mandate to defend his behaviour, thats your choice, live with it!

My choice is to be a decent human being! Cardinal? is a word that has managed to fit into the dictionary. I neither provide or will negotiate a "mandate" that has shown to do "certain" things that obviously go against what is truly and morally right in all context! Do not play that card!

lividduck

cartell_best wrote: »

My choice is to be a decent human being! Cardinal? is a word that has managed to fit into the dictionary. I neither provide or will negotiate a "mandate" that has shown to do "certain" things that obviously go against what is truly and morally right in all context! Do not play that card!

You are the one claiming to be a Roman Catholic, I suggest you look up the rules of that club, if you are a Roman catholic then you are undoubtidly supporting a facilitator of child sexual abuse, dems the rules of that club, if you dont like them leave! At the moment you sound like a KKK member claiming to be in favour equal rights.

NufcNavan

lividduck wrote: »

What do Irish Catholics believe in?
Child sexual abuse.
Defending child sexual abusers.
Defending child sexual abuse on the ground "shure wassint eveyone at it in dem days"
Defending those who knowningly swore child victims to secrecy and allowed further abuse to be perpetrated on the grounds that" shur wassint everone at it in dem days and how could anyone know it would harm the kids anyway"
For evidence of the above watch Cardinal Sean Bradys RTE interview on RTE 2/5/2012 where he involkes all of the above plus the Nazi defence at Nueremburg " I voss only obeyink orderz!"
If you are Irish and claim to be a Catholic you are choosing to support the above, end of!

What a pile of sh*t. :rolleyes:

cartell_best

lividduck wrote: »

You are the one claiming to be a Roman Catholic, I suggest you look up the rules of that club, if you are a Roman catholic then you are undoubtidly supporting a facilitator of child sexual abuse, dems the rules of that club, if you dont like them leave! At the moment you sound like a KKK member claiming to be in favour equal rights.

Sir or Miss?, you are being pedantic... Why? because? and you regard me as being whatever is going on inside your head that being...the ku klux klan? please, in fairness, is that your defense? no need! seriously!

Nodin

tony_soprano wrote: »

hold on , richard dawkins doesnt attend church at all AFAIK , he,s surely another level of cultural anglican , i suspect he sees protestantism as having played a key role in shaping england this past five centurys in terms of learning , commerce , culture and more or less subscribes to this culture minus the god part

I'd suggest this is what he was referring to

On Have Your Say, Mr Pritchard told Prof Dawkins there was an "increasing feeling" that "many of the main Christian festivals are being sidelined and marginalised, sometimes by stealth, sometimes openly".

This, he argued, would allow groups such as the British National Party, to utilise Christian imagery for their own ends.
'Singing carols'
Prof Dawkins, who has frequently spoken out against creationism and religious fundamentalism, replied: "I'm not one of those who wants to stop Christian traditions.
"This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims.
"So, yes, I like singing carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history. "If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm

lividduck

cartell_best wrote: »

Sir or Miss?, you are being pedantic... Why? because? and you regard me as being whatever is going on inside your head that being...the ku klux klan? please, in fairness, is that your defense? no need! seriously!

Im not the one supporting the rape and abuse of kids, you are the one PROUDLY proclaiming your membership of that criminal conspiracy.

tony_soprano

i got called crazy for refering to myself as a cultural catholic ( despite being athiest ) on another forum

i think catholicism has shaped the irish charechter and i perfer the irish charechter to the english ,scottish , dutch or scandanavian charechter

cartell_best

lividduck wrote: »

Im not the one supporting the rape and abuse of kids, you are the one PROUDLY proclaiming your membership of that criminal conspiracy.

You really need to start studying posts.....

hatrickpatrick

Basically, if you read Jesus' words, he does not advocate hatred. Ever. Even if he states that some people are misguided, he never once says we should shun or hate anyone.
Fun fact: One of the few times in the Gospel that Jesus gets truly enraged is when he says "Anyone who corrupts an innocent child, it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be flung into the sea".

Compare that with his almost total lack of comment on benign sexual matters such as masturbation and homosexuality, then look at the church's apparent priorities in that regard, and you'll see just how warped their interpretation of the will of Jesus actually is.

Nodin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Basically, if you read Jesus' words, he does not advocate hatred. Ever. Even if he states that some people are misguided, he never once says we should shun or hate anyone.
.........

He fires damn near it with the Caananite woman though. Have to say it suprised me when I first came across it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15&version=NIV