Junior Infants class size

Dr.Strange

Hi,

Earlier in the week I went along to an Educate together school I have enrolled my children in.

We were told that the class size will be thirty children!

Is this above average for a Junior Infants class?

It seems quite high to me and I would be slightly concerned about the level of attention the children receive...

Thanks

Mr.Wemmick

It is indeed a high number for Junior Infants.

Have you spoken to the principle of the school about what policies they have in place to cope with such a large number of children e.g are there class room assistants to help? How is the work set, is it differentiated to match ability? Is the class spilt up at any time?

I always think it is a good idea to get answers before your child starts in a new school. Make an appointment to see the school principle and then the Junior Infant teacher. Getting to know your school and child's teacher, and keeping in contact, will help to keep you informed of how your child is developing.

It is also important to know how soon you will be alerted if your child has any difficulties in class: social or academic.

Even if the teacher is on top of her/his game, it will be difficult with 30 children in a class and some can slip through the net quite easily.

The joys of cut backs, eh?

Dr.Strange

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

It is indeed a high number for Junior Infants.

Have you spoken to the principle of the school about what policies they have in place to cope with such a large number of children e.g are there class room assistants to help? How is the work set, is it differentiated to match ability? Is the class spilt up at any time?

We had a meeting and the Priciple, Treasurer, Board Director & the Teacher herself were present. I'm happy enough with the school itself and the set up, it's just the large size of the class.

No class room assistants, not split at any time from what I gathered.

Someone had raised the question about children falling behind and how they are helped which was answered satisfactorily.

They actively encourage the parents to play a big role at home which should help in the class environment, makes sense I suppose...

Mr.Wemmick

You're still not convinced with the satisfactory answer given at the meeting though, are you?

It is your prerogative as a parent to get better/ more comprehensive answers regarding your child's education and the possible effects of the large class size. If you have a private meeting with the principle and class room teacher, would it not help you understand the school's methodology better?

I agree that it is a good teacher as well as a good parent that educates a child but it is the school first and foremost that will deliver the curriculum to your child, and you being the support to the work they do in class.

I would make sure you as a parent are happy and feel positive about the school. It is important that a child knows their parents are at ease with it all before they begin primary school.

byhookorbycrook

30 is about average for a class so not out of the ordinary for junior infants either.The pupil teacher ratio is very high in Ireland, so most schools cannot afford to have smaller classes in infants- as it would be huge classes further up the line.
There are no classroom assistants for infants or indeed any class generally. If there is a child with special needs they may qualify for a special needs assistant (SNA) but these are becoming harder and harder to get,no matter how great the need.

aisher

Not surprised to hear the number is at 30 - my kids all started in school with 30 in the class and now they are in 5th class the numbers are at the 32/33 mark. It sounds really big but they seem to get on fine - smaller classes would be nice but in todays economic climate I cant see that happening anytime soon.

huskerdu

I would consider 30 to be a bit high, but not unusual.
27/28 is very normal.

If you have an expectation of a much smaller class size than that in a standard public national school, you will have to look hard.

There is no public funding for class room assistants AFAIK, unless there are special reasons, so little point in expecting that either.

SerialComplaint

huskerdu wrote: »

If you have an expectation of a much smaller class size than that in a standard public national school, you will have to look hard.

And even if you did find one, there would be no guarantee that this class size would continue for the full JI year, or future years.

Stillorganboy

What is the ideal numbers for junior infants ?

ShamoBuc

Stillorganboy wrote: »

What is the ideal numbers for junior infants ?

Honestly, about 20 would be fantasitc. But unfortunately with the ptr as high as it is, you will find that junior infant classes will be 2 or 3 more than that. Principals are always in fear of losing a teacher and try to have a few over and above the cutoff point throughout the school.

E.T.

Stillorganboy wrote: »

What is the ideal numbers for junior infants ?

Ideal? Under 20. It would give those children an amazing start in school. They'd get so much individual tuition time for basic phonics, literacy and numeracy skills, it would be of unbelievable benefit.

Unfortunately it's not a viable reality here in non-DEIS mainstream schools, unless the school is just above the threshold for the last teacher in, and are able to manage this. Rarely happens. Most infant classes are at mid-twenties upwards, and that's often a mixture of Juniors and Seniors.

silverharp

there have been some studies that suggest class size isnt a key factor. As a parent the best thing you could do is start your child reading at home first. We sent our kids to school reading and they are flying it.

ShamoBuc

silverharp wrote: »

there have been some studies that suggest class size isnt a key factor. As a parent the best thing you could do is start your child reading at home first. We sent our kids to school reading and they are flying it.

Probably government funded ones!

lazygal

I don't think class size accounts for as much as the quality of the teaching and the attitude of parents. Children are in school for a minority of the day. I was in a school where every class had at least 35 in it (late 80s-early90s) and the school had a very good attitude towards learning with high expectations for us, lots of emphasis on basic grammar, reading, times tables etc, and resource teaching for those who needed extra help. I don't think having fewer children in the classes would have made a massive difference, it was the attitude of the teachers and principle that ensured we got a good, all round education.

ShamoBuc

lazygal wrote: »

I don't think class size accounts for as much as the quality of the teaching and the attitude of parents. Children are in school for a minority of the day. I was in a school where every class had at least 35 in it (late 80s-early90s) and the school had a very good attitude towards learning with high expectations for us, lots of emphasis on basic grammar, reading, times tables etc, and resource teaching for those who needed extra help. I don't think having fewer children in the classes would have made a massive difference, it was the attitude of the teachers and principle that ensured we got a good, all round education.

A class in the late 80's is alot different to the one these days.
I would suggest that 5hrs 40mins is alot more than a minority of a day to a 7yr old.
Nowadays alot of children that need that 'extra help' have to stay in the classroom and the teacher has to do it.
Alot of classrooms have students that really should have an SNA but don't - again it falls on the class teacher.
The cutbacks in learing support, resource, language teachers and SNA's have had a profound effect on the majority of classrooms in one way or another.
Would smaller class sizes have a positive effect? I think most teachers would say they most certainly would be a great advantage. I would anyway.

SerialComplaint

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Probably government funded ones!

Or maybe not! http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0216/education.html

ShamoBuc

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Or maybe not! http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0216/education.html[/QUOTE]


A very broad report like that can give you varying degree of accuracies and can be viewed in a number of ways. I particularly liked the way they have Ireland, who have one of the largest class sizes in Europe thrown into the mix with Korea and Hong Kong - who very interestingly have class sizes in the region of 22 and 15!!

Dr.Strange

Dr.Strange wrote: »

Hi,

Earlier in the week I went along to an Educate together school I have enrolled my children in.

We were told that the class size will be thirty children!

Is this above average for a Junior Infants class?

It seems quite high to me and I would be slightly concerned about the level of attention the children receive...

Thanks

I was in primary school in the 1980s and there were classes of 35+, I can't fault the education I got, but on reflection I can see that it was completely unsuitable for a lot of other children at the time. Teaching methods and 'regiems' in classrooms of that era just aren't suitable in modern classrooms.

30 sounds a lot and it is a lot for Junior Infants, but not that unusual, and with Ireland's current 'baby boom' it is well on track to becoming the norm rather than the exception. In 1996 there were approximately 50,000 babies born in Ireland. In 2007 that had risen to over 70,000 and it has remained staggeringly high at 70K+ since then, that's 30% higher than the mid-90s and it's going to have an impact on class sizes. http://www.ucd.ie/issda/static/documentation/esri/GUI-SampleDesignResponseInfants.pdf (Trend graph on p. 4 of document).

At a time when there were never more qualified teachers, and more children to be educated, the country is in deep recession impactng on a) the children in greater class sizes and b) employment prospects, rather, lack of them among newly qualified primary teachers.

The quality of teaching graduates in Ireland are of a very calibre, who can adapt teaching methods to deal with large class sizes and different abilities, they will strive do their best with what resources they've got and it is getting more difficult, but teachers are in general conscientious to differentiate for the needs of every child.

lazygal

ShamoBuc wrote: »

A class in the late 80's is alot different to the one these days.
I would suggest that 5hrs 40mins is alot more than a minority of a day to a 7yr old.
Nowadays alot of children that need that 'extra help' have to stay in the classroom and the teacher has to do it.
Alot of classrooms have students that really should have an SNA but don't - again it falls on the class teacher.
The cutbacks in learing support, resource, language teachers and SNA's have had a profound effect on the majority of classrooms in one way or another.
Would smaller class sizes have a positive effect? I think most teachers would say they most certainly would be a great advantage. I would anyway.

We had special needs children in our classes pretty much the whole way through, be they refugees from Lebanon or Bosnia with no English, Downs Syndrome children etc. I do feel the attitude and ethos of the school plays a huge role. My primary school was quite progressive and still is, and was the go-to school for a lot of pilot programmes such as Stay Safe and science classes. I'm obviously generalizing on my experience, but I do feel we got an excellent education, and it was down to committed teachers, parents and the environment. I remember one class I was in had 37 in it, yet we all did the spelling and tables tests each week and everyone did well in them. Children spend a lot of time not in school, such as holidays and after 2.30 p.m. so parents really should step up to the plate in terms of their responsibility. In Ireland, they are the primary educators after all.