BARF Diet

Ayla

Another question for those in the know:

Is there any nutritional benefit to making stock out of boiled chix/beef bones that can't be directly fed and then pouring that stock in with the raw bits when we feed? Especially if the root veg have to be cooked first, can they be cooked in this stock, and would the nutritional benefit of the bones (i.e.: marrow, etc) transfer into the stock?

DBB

FlowerGarden wrote: »

I started my bichon on the BARF diet about three weeks ago on the advice of a vet. She suffers from allergies and was constantly scratching her muzzle and licking her paws. I have another dog and decided to put them both on it.
There has been a great improvement with the scratching, about 80% better. She still licks her feet a lot. I was advised not to feed her pork or beef.
One of the big changes is how little water they drink now. Also they absolutely love the food. She was never a big eater and would leave her nuts as often as eat them. Now the bowl is licked clean. I give her chicken wings but I stopped giving them to the other fellow as he was almost swallowing them whole and gave me a fright a couple of times. He gets other types of bones instead.
The diet is expensive, I haven't sourced a meat wholesaler yet but I would find it hard to go back to dry commercial food now.

That's a great result for your bichon!
Where do you live, as there may be a meat supplier somewhere near you we can recommend.
One word of warning, we have had some dogs who were allergic to chicken, so don't rule this out as your answer to the bit of itching your bichon still has.
Also, whilst I wouldn't give pork, I wouldn't (and don't!) hesitate to give beef. What would be wrong with it? Some dogs will have allergies to different meat proteins, but unless your dog is known to be allergic/sensitive to beef, I don't see why it should be ruled out! Irish beef is top quality stuff.

TooManyDogs

+1 on the possibility of being allergic to chicken.
It's suprisingly common for dogs to be allergic to chicken.

Why were you advised not to feed beef or pork? Pork needs to be frozen for 21 days minimum to be safe to feed raw so if you can do a freezer rotation I would feed pork no problem. Beef can be quite fattening so I'd complement it with a lean meat like rabbit or fish but I'd definitely do an exclusion diet with your bichon to see if he's allergic to chicken.

TooManyDogs

Ayla wrote: »

Another question for those in the know:

Is there any nutritional benefit to making stock out of boiled chix/beef bones that can't be directly fed and then pouring that stock in with the raw bits when we feed? Especially if the root veg have to be cooked first, can they be cooked in this stock, and would the nutritional benefit of the bones (i.e.: marrow, etc) transfer into the stock?

I'd imagine you would get some nutritional value from it, not as much maybe as raw but there's religious wars over whether cooking reduces or enhances nutritional value of meat. What cuts of chicken would you be talking about that you couldnt feed raw?

FlowerGarden

I live in Limerick. The other problem I have with this diet is that I'm vegetarian and it's a moral dilemma for me! I hate giving the dogs meat that comes from intensive farmed chickens. I feel like I am giving one animal an awful life to feed another. However feeding them organic food is way out of my price range. Lamb are probably rared more naturally than any other farm animal and this would be my preferance to feed them followed by fish and beef. I refuse to buy any pork products because of the farming methods used and free range or organic are too expensive. The vet said that in her experience many dogs are allergic to pork or beef and to start with poultry, lamb and fish and we would tweak it after six weeks.

TooManyDogs

I'm vegetarian too but humans are omnivores so gave the choice not to eat meat, dogs are carnivores so don't. If you're in Limerick could you go to one of the poultry factories and talk to them about getting some of their waste chicken backs and wing tips, I get mine from a butchers waste so its recycling rather than adding to the cruelty of farmed chickens. You could also ask around and see if there's any hobby fishermen in your area who would sell you some of their catch. Same for hunters.

Digs may not be obligate carnivores like cats but they only thrive on a meat diet. Dry food also has meat in it and you can be guaranteed 90% isn't organic, is intensively farmed, and will include the sweepings off the floor. As a vegetarian buying meat is distasteful but a necessity if we're going to own carnivorous pets so better it be meat you can see the quality of it rather than it be hidden in dry pellets

Cherry Blossom

FlowerGarden wrote: »

However feeding them organic food is way out of my price range.

Organic does not always mean ethically produced when it comes to meat I'm afraid. It is not unusual for organicly raised animals to be denied essential meds for pain and treatment of veterinary problems because the meat cannot then be sold as organic. Many will take the chance that the problem will go away on it's own rather than chance a reduction in meat value of that animal. So I steer clear of organic meat/eggs/dairy products unless you can be 100% sure of the exact source. I agree with you on the chicken but fish is also intensively farmed/fished. I don't envy your position in you efforts to fed raw and have had to compromise with myself on the fish and I feed commercial dog food made from human-grade meat. Irish/UK standard raised lamb and beef comes from animals that have been given the best quality of life when it comes to livestock. I'm not vegetarian but have pretty tough standards when it comes to meat products that I eat myself, I also don't eat anything remotely 'gamey' (more just due to thought of it), but game meats are not something I would automatically rule out for my dogs. Venison would be an option that could be considered as it's often the result of very necessary culls that take place in order to control numbers which is necessary for the overall well-being of herds in a particular area, so I have no ethical qualms over venison, though I'm not sure how easy it would be to source. (you could try asking in the hunting forum) There is also nothing wrong with barn-raised or free-range chicken, quite a few people in this forum keep pet chickens in a coup which is no different from the conditions barn-raised chickens are raised in.

FlowerGarden

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Organic does not always mean ethically produced when it comes to meat I'm afraid. It is not unusual for organicly raised animals to be denied essential meds for pain and treatment of veterinary problems because the meat cannot then be sold as organic. Many will take the chance that the problem will go away on it's own rather than chance a reduction in meat value of that animal. So I steer clear of organic meat/eggs/dairy products unless you can be 100% sure of the exact source.
I agree with you on the chicken but fish is also intensively farmed/fished. I don't envy your position in you efforts to fed raw and have had to compromise with myself on the fish and I feed commercial dog food made from human-grade meat. Irish/UK standard raised lamb and beef comes from animals that have been given the best quality of life when it comes to livestock. I'm not vegetarian but have pretty tough standards when it comes to meat products that I eat myself, I also don't eat anything remotely 'gamey' (more just due to thought of it), but game meats are not something I would automatically rule out for my dogs. Venison would be an option that could be considered as it's often the result of very necessary culls that take place in order to control numbers which is necessary for the overall well-being of herds in a particular area, so I have no ethical qualms over venison, though I'm not sure how easy it would be to source. (you could try asking in the hunting forum) There is also nothing wrong with barn-raised or free-range chicken, quite a few people in this forum keep pet chickens in a coup which is no different from the conditions barn-raised chickens are raised in.

Animals are permitted to be treated with medicine if they are raised organically however there is a withdrawal period after that where they may not be sold for meat. Preventative antibiotics are not permitted such as routinely dosing chickens as they do on a conventional farm.

There are higher standards of welfare in the organic system. Cattle must having bedding when they are housed for the winter. They also have approx double the space in the sheds where they are kept.

Keeping hens at home in a coop is very different to the life of barn raised chickens. There may be thousands of laying birds in a barn with limited perches and no access to the outside, hardly any chance to display normal behavior. Most responsible hen owners provide perches, outside space on grass for the hens to scratch and forage, kitchen scraps for them to peck at, dust baths where they can clean themselves, quiet hen boxes where they can lay eggs etc etc. I have kept hens rescued from these barns that would have been killed if they had not been found homes as they are slaughtered after one year when they do not lay as many eggs.

Organically raised animals/ poulty are not fed genetically modified food as are conventional animals and poultry.