Is Islam incompatible with Irish society?

Fromthetrees

There's a Muslim prayer group down the road from me, there's always a few out on the footpath having a chat, I never gave it much thought until I was walking to deliver a letter yesterday to the post box that's right next to it with my daughter, there was 5 men crossing the road to go into the building, when they got to the other side of the road ours and there paths crossed, all 5 of them stopped to let us pass, it took me aback, it was a very nice thing to do, for a group of 5 men to stop and stand on the road to leave us pass was something I'd never expect from anybody.
I passed by there again just there and there was a few lads outside having a chat as usual and it just got me thinking would they or me ever be able to 'hang out', do they judge me for being a non believer, considering I have a bet in my back pocket, cans of beer in my bag and ham in my role, a child outside of marriage ect.

Is the way I live my life incompatible with the way they live their life? and does it even matter?

OneArt

It might be incompatible, but as long as they don't push their beliefs and obey the law I don't see the problem.

I'm a pagan but you don't see me out sacrificing goats in the middle of the street. That would just be impolite.

Morlar

I really don't think one single anecdotal instance is enough to go by.
I think you would need to look at how muslims have integrated into other western european liberal democracies to have a hope of judging that.

Links234

people can be nice people in spite of their religion or their religion's rules

plenty of Irish people who'd curse your name for having a child outside of marriage though

biko

In my view yes. I'm now talking Wahhabism and Salafism‎ (strict Islam).
Wahhabism and Salafism‎ isn't compatible with any Western culture.

I don't see why we would just manage to throw off the shackles of Christianity only to start replacing it with the (maybe worse) shackles of Islam.

c_man

I don't think it matters. But it must suck to have the images of the Irish fry, the Irish pub etc. constantly there as a reminder of differences.

Bullseye1

We have a people who like to be led and not many leaders. I guess anything is possible. Personally I find all religions to be a waste of time.

mikemac1

OP, you could have met polite men in any town in Ireland

Doesn't have much to do with religion

But definitely an interesting thread, fair play

My name is URL

It depends on which flavor of Islam you're talking about and whether or not those practicing it want its 'laws' applied to all of society, or even only to their own groups. I mean you can't go dishing out certain punishments dictated under Sharia Law here without pissing a few people off.

In my own opinion, no religion is fully compatible with any society. Religious belief should be a purely personal thing, and play no real part in how a society functions as a whole.

28064212

Define Islam. Is it believing in Allah? Praying in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day? Following a particular interpretation of the Koran? Following a strict interpretation of the Koran? All of the above? None of the above?

Depending on your definition of Catholicism, I would say that it is incompatible with Irish society (divorce, contraception, sexual images everywhere etc. etc.)

Nodin

Fromthetrees wrote: »

There's a Muslim prayer group down the road from me, there's always a few out on the footpath having a chat, I never gave it much thought until I was walking to deliver a letter yesterday to the post box that's right next to it with my daughter, there was 5 men crossing the road to go into the building, when they got to the other side of the road ours and there paths crossed, all 5 of them stopped to let us pass, it took me aback, it was a very nice thing to do, for a group of 5 men to stop and stand on the road to leave us pass was something I'd never expect from anybody.
I passed by there again just there and there was a few lads outside having a chat as usual and it just got me thinking would they or me ever be able to 'hang out', do they judge me for being a non believer, considering I have a bet in my back pocket, cans of beer in my bag and ham in my role, a child outside of marriage ect.

Is the way I live my life incompatible with the way they live their life? and does it even matter?

.....as long as you don't fuck with them and they don't fuck you, I fail to see the issue. This amazingly deep phillosophy works well with a remarkable number of things.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

summerskin

Aquila wrote: »

anyone come up with a daily mail headline yet?

"My brush with Islamic fanatics: one man's brave story"

Morlar

summerskin wrote: »

"My brush with Islamic fanatics: one man's brave story"

One mans journey through the heart of darkness that is TALIBAN TERRITORY. 'Bearded islamists after my daughter' claims father.

Nodin

Aquila wrote: »

anyone come up with a daily mail headline yet?

'Praying Muslims Block Path -
Incident linked to swelling number of Immigrants'

MrStuffins

I don't see why Islam would be incompatible with Irish Society as long as they didn't try to enforce their beliefs on others and obeyed the law of the land.

Me, i'd be more concerned with the Catholic Church trying to infringe on my rights to do things as a member of Irish Society.

Morlar

MrStuffins wrote: »

I don't see why Islam would be incompatible with Irish Society as long as they didn't try to enforce their beliefs on others and obeyed the law of the land.

Me, i'd be more concerned with the Catholic Church trying to infringe on my rights to do things as a member of Irish Society.

How do you think things would be if the respective numbers were reversed ?

hooradiation

Fromthetrees wrote: »

do they judge me for being a non believer, considering I have a bet in my back pocket, cans of beer in my bag and ham in my role, a child outside of marriage ect.

that sounds like a busy afternoon...

Birneybau

Can't imagine the Irish living under a repressive, fundamentalist religious regime.

Hang on...

MrStuffins

Morlar wrote: »

How do you think things would be if the respective numbers were reversed ?

I think that's quite obvious when you look towards the Middle East.

However, 2 wrongs don't make a right!

My name is URL

What about things like circumcision.. should Muslims or Jews be allowed to mutilate their children's genitals just because of their respective beliefs?

CrazyRabbit

They do have some nice laws regarding financing (charging interest is not allowed).

Similar problem with Jewish people though...they mostly have a persecution complex.

28064212

My name is URL wrote: »

What about things like circumcision.. should Muslims or Jews be allowed to mutilate their children's genitals just because of their respective beliefs?

Should Catholic priests be allowed use the Seal of Confession to evade laws on disclosing information?

My name is URL

28064212 wrote: »

Should Catholic priests be allowed use the Seal of Confession to evade laws on disclosing information?

No, and I don't know how that's relevant to what I asked.

are you going to deflect every question towards the catholic church?

MrStuffins

My name is URL wrote: »

What about things like circumcision.. should Muslims or Jews be allowed to mutilate their children's genitals just because of their respective beliefs?

That's a very tough question to answer. Having said that, It makes me sick to see mothers pierce their baby's ears so chopping off a bit of the mickey...........

What are your thoughts?

28064212

My name is URL wrote: »

No, and I don't know how that's relevant to what I asked.

"should Muslims or Jews be allowed to mutilate their children's genitals just because of their respective beliefs?"
Followed up by
"Should Catholic priests be allowed use the Seal of Confession to evade laws on disclosing information?"

It's a comparison using the form "Should I]a religious person[/I be allowed to do I]something contrary to society[/I just because of their respective beliefs?". Pretty clear, I would have thought.

My name is URL wrote: »

are you going to deflect every question towards the catholic church?

Equally clear, I would have thought, but Catholicism is the religion most people on boards.ie will be able to relate to

Fromthetrees

hooradiation wrote: »

that sounds like a busy afternoon...

Bet, eat, drink is how I role. :cool:

juan.kerr

c_man wrote: »

I don't think it matters. But it must suck to have the images of the Irish fry, the Irish pub etc. constantly there as a reminder of differences.

Yeah, maybe we should ban all thinks not compatible with the kourhan.

wilkie2006

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Is the way I live my life incompatible with the way they live their life?

Bin Laden's advisors didn't think so...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0503/breaking53.html

Osama bin Laden was urged by a fellow leading al-Qaeda member to send a message to the Irish people persuading them to support Islam.
According to new declassified documents seized from his hideout in Pakistan following his death last year, bin Laden was advised that there was a possibility of converting Irish people because of their disenchantment with the Catholic Church and anger over the economic crisis.

My name is URL

MrStuffins wrote: »

That's a very tough question to answer. Having said that, It makes me sick to see mothers pierce their baby's ears so chopping off a bit of the mickey...........

What are your thoughts?

Same as yourself, except I don't think it's a tough question at all. Just one that causes some people to experience cognitive dissonance on the subject of religious freedoms etc.

Ellis Dee

I wonder did anyone ask around 432 AD whether Christianity would ever be compatible with Irish society.

In a perfect world there would be no religion, of course, but there are lots of religions in this imperfect world of ours.:D

Most of them tend to reflect the society in which they took shape and also change over time to reflect changes in the society in which they exist, although there is a big time lag in the cases of some religions.

I suppose Islam is a bit more out of sync with the modern western world than even the other major religions, but it too will eventually change.;)

Just wait till it relaxes its rules on alcohol and bacon and I wouldn't be surprised at all if lot of people, who regularly lorry pints of Guinness and pounds of rashers down their gullets, will be doing push-ups for Allah with the best of them.:)

Fromthetrees

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Bin Laden's advisors didn't think so...

What a really interesting article.

eyescreamcone

I've no problem with anyone who comes here and wants to integrate and become Irish - however if you want to come here and stay apart...
Not bother to learn the language, live in large groups where they can basically transplant their foreign culture into...then I have a problem.

Of course we are at fault
Our stupid laws allowing religion in schools gives Muslims an opportunity to school their kids away from the the rest of us thus creating a them and us situation.

Take all religions out of schools and all of the next generation will be integrated.

Chuck Stone

The question is a little vague. What exactly is Irish society? Fundamentalism and harmful religious practices are not compatible with freedom.

Some of the stupid laws the state enforces aren't exactly compatible with freedom either though. Being deemed a criminal because of a proscribed plant you like to smoke is one stupid law, locking people up for debts is another, having to have a licence for a TV?

charlemont

Fromthetrees wrote: »

There's a Muslim prayer group down the road from me, there's always a few out on the footpath having a chat, I never gave it much thought until I was walking to deliver a letter yesterday to the post box that's right next to it with my daughter, there was 5 men crossing the road to go into the building, when they got to the other side of the road ours and there paths crossed, all 5 of them stopped to let us pass, it took me aback, it was a very nice thing to do, for a group of 5 men to stop and stand on the road to leave us pass was something I'd never expect from anybody.
I passed by there again just there and there was a few lads outside having a chat as usual and it just got me thinking would they or me ever be able to 'hang out', do they judge me for being a non believer, considering I have a bet in my back pocket, cans of beer in my bag and ham in my role, a child outside of marriage ect.

Is the way I live my life incompatible with the way they live their life? and does it even matter?

Would that be by Wellington Rd/Patrick's Hill ? If so lots of them are neighbours of mine.

They like to do their own thing, Yes they are friendly but I don't think they would appreciate us coming over to them with a bag of cans and talking shít.

Fromthetrees

charlemont wrote: »

Would that be by Wellington Rd/Patrick's Hill ? If so lots of them are neighbours of mine.

They like to do their own thing, Yes they are friendly but I don't think they would appreciate us coming over to them with a bag of cans and talking shít.

Ahhh! :eek:
Are you watching me right now?
Most of the neighbors in my building go there.

preddy

OneArt wrote: »

It might be incompatible, but as long as they don't push their beliefs and obey the law I don't see the problem.

I'm a pagan but you don't see me out sacrificing goats in the middle of the street. That would just be impolite.

Do you sacrifice them at home ?:eek: poor goats

charlemont

Ha..:cool: Must say those lads don't bother anyone in the area, I don't think they get offended by our lifestyles as any of them I know accept Ireland is different, They seem to appreciate it here but you know yourself the area has a high proportion of drug addicts and alcoholics and I'm sure that disgusts them though.

One of them called in for a joint with me on Wednesday and we were well stoned yet he still left to go to the prayer hall. Fair play to him I couldn't move...:D


I'm further up the road by St Luke's. My ex girlfriend lives on the hill though.

TehDagsBass

eyescreamcone wrote: »

live in large groups where they can basically transplant their foreign culture into...then I have a problem.

Like the Irish in Australia, Canada and the US, both currently and historically? With regards to language, well, are you talking about the Queen's English? Getting bothered about them not learning a language that isn't even our "own"?

I used to get bothered by segregation but I don't really care any more, live and let live, so long as they're living within the laws of the country then I don't really care what they're speaking.

I'm significantly more concerned with the so called "Catholics" coming over from certain ex-USSR countries and the lack of care for the law their groups of men seem to possess than a few muslims who come over and do their own thing.

token101

Strict religious practices are incompatable with Western culture. And I'd go as far as far as to say the 21st century in general.And Islam seems to be the strictest and most manaical of the lot. Live your life whatever way you like, as long as you don't feel obliged by 'God' to impose your beliefs on anyone else. I don't need to be saved, I'm fine thanks.

token101

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone who comes here and wants to integrate and become Irish - however if you want to come here and stay apart...
Not bother to learn the language, live in large groups where they can basically transplant their foreign culture into...then I have a problem.

Of course we are at fault
Our stupid laws allowing religion in schools gives Muslims an opportunity to school their kids away from the the rest of us thus creating a them and us situation.

Take all religions out of schools and all of the next generation will be integrated.

I don't mind anyone coming here and integrating, but learn the language in full asap. I've worked with people in the past who have lived here for 5/6 years and still need translators. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'd sack someone like that.

PapaQuebec

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

They do have some nice laws regarding financing (charging interest is not allowed).

Similar problem with Jewish people though...they mostly have a persecution complex.

They may not charge interest to other Muslims!

Everyone else is fair game!

Similarly, you'll never see the Islamic "Red Crescent" sending aid-workers to non-Muslim countries/regions, while you'll see the Red Cross everywhere!

Fromthetrees

charlemont wrote: »

Ha..:cool: Must say those lads don't bother anyone in the area, I don't think they get offended by our lifestyles as any of them I know accept Ireland is different, They seem to appreciate it here but you know yourself the area has a high proportion of drug addicts and alcoholics and I'm sure that disgusts them though.

One of them called in for a joint with me on Wednesday and we were well stoned yet he still left to go to the prayer hall. Fair play to him I couldn't move...:D


I'm further up the road by St Luke's. My ex girlfriend lives on the hill though.

Yeah I've a bud originally from Pakistan but has been living in Ireland for like 15 years, he always drank the most, always had the most drugs, tried to pull the most woman and wore a cross as a necklace, his family are strict muslims and it was almost like he was trying to be 'more Irish' (if that's what being Irish means today) than the rest of us. It's only been lately that it has dawned on me that if he didn't turn his back on his families religion we just wouldn't have been friends and wouldn't have 'fitted in', that's what I assume anyway. I wish it wasn't the case but I don't think he'd have been accepted if he was a strict muslim and obviously vice versa.

forfuxsake

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Yeah I've a bud originally from Pakistan but has been living in Ireland for like 15 years, he always drank the most, always had the most drugs, tried to pull the most woman and wore a cross as a necklace, his family are strict muslims and it was almost like he was trying to be 'more Irish' (if that's what being Irish means today) than the rest of us. It's only been lately that it has dawned on me that if he didn't turn his back on his families religion we just wouldn't have been friends and wouldn't have 'fitted in', that's what I assume anyway. I wish it wasn't the case but I don't think he'd have been accepted if he was a strict muslim and obviously vice versa.

He wouldn't have been accepted by your crowd if he had been a strict catholic either.

De ye wanna get stoned and pop a pill and chases b1tches?
No, I'm stayin in to read the bible and besides we have mass in the morning.

Fromthetrees

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The question is a little vague. What exactly is Irish society? Fundamentalism and harmful religious practices are not compatible with freedom.

Some of the stupid laws the state enforces aren't exactly compatible with freedom either though. Being deemed a criminal because of a proscribed plant you like to smoke is one stupid law, locking people up for debts is another, having to have a licence for a TV?

I just don't understand why debt companies or whatever can't just get a court order to automatically garnish the income/dole payment of the person that owes the money. The current way everyone loses. http://www.thejournal.ie/guess-how-many-people-have-been-jailed-for-not-paying-fines-this-year-308516-Dec2011/

Chuck Stone

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I just don't understand why debt companies or whatever can't just get a court order to automatically garnish the income/dole payment of the person that owes the money.

Yep. Seems to be just common sense and a hell of a lot less costly and harmful than throwing people in jail.

For people who evade tax on a grand scale just fine them twice or three times what they managed to get away and if they don't pay up seize their assets and property or a lengthy sentence as a last resort.

shootermacg

I played pool with an old Muslim and his sons on holiday for a few hours, they didn't speak english, but bought me a beer on their round and minerals for themselves. Very polite and good natured, met them the following day and they were all smiles, lovely bunch of lads.

I'm all for people holding to their beliefs as long as I can hold mine. |I think in time the Muslim religion will soften in their outlook, look at those white trash Christian fundamentalists in the states. Do all baptised children still go to hell in the catholic religion?

forfuxsake

shootermacg wrote: »

I played pool with an old Muslim and his sons on holiday for a few hours, they didn't speak english, but bought me a beer on their round and minerals for themselves. Very polite and good natured, met them the following day and they were all smiles, lovely bunch of lads.

I'm all for people holding to their beliefs as long as I can hold mine. |I think in time the Muslim religion will soften in their outlook, look at those white trash Christian fundamentalists in the states. Do all baptised children still go to hell in the catholic religion?

do ye mean unbaptised? it's so confusing these days

mathepac

Nodin wrote: »

'Praying Muslims Block Path -
Incident linked to swelling number of Immigrants'

The Daily Wail gets the headline wrong of course, the fecken idiots.

'Praying Muslims Block Path -
Incident linked to a number of swelling Immigrants'

wendell borton

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

They do have some nice laws regarding financing (charging interest is not allowed).

Similar problem with Jewish people though...they mostly have a persecution complex.

Usury is a sin to christians as well.

Nodin

Twas only a matter of time, I suppose.

PapaQuebec wrote: »

........

Similarly, you'll never see the Islamic "Red Crescent" sending aid-workers to non-Muslim countries/regions, while you'll see the Red Cross everywhere!

Yep, you're so right there.
http://www.kizilay.org.tr/english/haber.php?t=-News-Turkish.Red.Crescent.To.Aid.Haitians.Quake

http://www.kizilay.org.tr/english/haber.php?t=-News-Urgent.Humanitarian.Action.Of.TRCS.In.Response.To.Armed.Conflict.In.Georgia

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/172920.html

http://redcrescent.org.my/drupal/node/843

Have to say, I never knew the Haitians, Georgians and Japanese were muslims.