Can dog be PTS for biting another dog???

DeeRottie

Hi all, I came on here looking for some clarification on the powers that dog wardens have after receiving the following (edited) message from a friend:

Hey D, I have a favour/advice to ask from you about a doggie related situation that we have. Ms X has a Rottie/doberman X. She's about 6 years old and a lovely little thing. She's great around children and we've never had any problems with her around our dog or around brother's two dogs(one of which is an excitable puppy) but unfortunately she seems to have an issue with dogs she doesn't know. She escaped from Ms X's backgarden last week while Ms X was out and bit another dog. The other dog is fine and the vet could treat him easily enough I think but the owner is understandably upset about it. The be all and end all of the situation is that the owner contacted the dog warden and he has told Ms X to rehome the dog off the estate or she'll have to have her destroyed. We obviously don't want that to happen, could you help us get the word out about her or even tell us the best way to make sure she gets rehomed to a good home!! There was another similar incident a few years ago where she went for another dog but Ms X has since kept her muzzled while out on a lead. I can't say this for certain now but I do think alot of the aggression towards the strange dogs comes from her wanting to protect Ms X. Anytime my husband has walked her she pays little or no attention to other dogs. Whew, I think that covers everything!!

Now please don't tell me what the owner should have done - obv the dog should not have been able to get out, but that horse has bolted. I've been reading the thread on Jill the siezed GSD and while I am aware that the warden would have to go to court to get a destruction order if she attacked a person, I'm wondering can the warden get a destruction order for her biting a dog?

I'm also disgusted by the attitude of 'rehome the dog off the estate'. Ummm if you thought the dog was dangerous, how is advising her to be moved somewhere else be responsible??????? I feel like the warden has no power here and feels that by making threats s/he can get the dog off the estate and therefore keep the complainant happy, but realistically there's nothing s/he can do but fine the owner for having the dog off lead and unmuzzled in a public place.

Ideally I'd love if the owner could sit down and speak to the owner and sort something out to make sure the dog never gets out again, but from my experience a large amount of wardens in the country are not the type to be reasoned with .....

Any feedback/help would be appreciated.

Stheno

As a dobie x she should be muzzled in public as per the restricted breed rules.

How did she escape?

The warden can't say she has to go, but you have to demonstrate good faith in not allowing the dog escape again.

DamagedTrax

just one of those things, sometimes dogs escape and it doesnt sound like your friend is a crap owner. sounds like they're aware and dealing with the dog aggresion. dog warden has no power here, unless its a council estate. if thats the case then they cant keep a restricted breed unfortunatly.

Zapperzy

As far as I know the warden has no power to have the dog pts. He might be able to fine her for a roaming dog and an unmuzzled RB though (or does he have to catch them on the spot?). Has your friend offered to pay the other owner's vet bills? Could she not talk to them, offer to pay the bill and give her word that the dog will always be on a lead and muzzled and that changes will be made so the dog doesn't escape again? The dobbie owner sounds like a reasonable person, mistakes happen, it shouldn't have happened but it's a once off and it's not like the dogs out roaming all day every day.

As for rehoming, I don't think she should have to but if she has to then contact all rescues and ask for her to be rehomed through them while she holds onto the dog. They will interview a potential owner and homecheck them so at least a new owner would know what to expect and she would be going to a good home. I'l not lie though it won't be easy to rehome a large RB dog with a dog bite history.

TheBegotten

I wouldn't imagine so. Dogs, especially guard dogs, were bred to be alert and edgy. Aside from that, no dog will attack unprovoked, with leads me to believe the other dog opened hostilities. The fact that the dog wasn't severely injured shows control on the rottie's part, it wasn't some random aggression, so, to the extent a dog can be, its not dangerous. Finally, fights between dogs are a natural way of interacting. People forget the things in their gardin aren't furry people. They're well-behaved wolves.

TehDagsBass

Dog doesn't have to be rehomed or put to sleep. As it's only a dog on dog bite, and a minor one at that, the warden would have a very tough time arguing that the dog warrants destruction.

Would their dog insurance not cover the other animal anyway?

Regardless, the dob/rot cross owner here should approach the other owners and make some good signs of faith. A good start would be to have a double-doored run or enclosure made to surround the garden/area they're usually kept in, which would prevent any change of it escaping in the future. It would cost quite a bit but it beats the alternative (court?, bad feelings, etc).

golden8

TehDagsBass wrote: »

Dog doesn't have to be rehomed or put to sleep. As it's only a dog on dog bite, and a minor one at that, the warden would have a very tough time arguing that the dog warrants destruction.

Would their dog insurance not cover the other animal anyway?

Regardless, the dob/rot cross owner here should approach the other owners and make some good signs of faith. A good start would be to have a double-doored run or enclosure made to surround the garden/area they're usually kept in, which would prevent any change of it escaping in the future. It would cost quite a bit but it beats the alternative (court?, bad feelings, etc).

You know the law all Rb need to be on short leash and muzzled when out in public. Was the other dog loose ie owner not present

DeeRottie

Golden8 we all know the rules, the dog is a restricted breed and should be on a lead and muzzled. However, the dog did not take the time to muzzle herself and grab a lead when she broke out of the garden lol. The owner always muzzles and leashes her on walks, however this was an unexpected break out and has not happened before.

I have advised that the vet bills should be paid by the RB owner - I would always recommend that, as if at the end of the day your dog injures another, regardless of breed, it is your responsibility. I have also suggested that a meeting is arranged with the warden to demonstrate the improvements that are going to be made to ensure the dog NEVER escapes again.

My main concern is that the warden will ignore any attempts to resolve the situation, and insist the dog is PTS. But from what you are all saying it seems that the warden does not have the power to seize a dog off the back of biting another dog, I hope this is right???

DeeRottie

Zapperzy if it comes to rehoming, I will do everything in my power to get the dog rehomed properly. Many charities will advertise the dog as being available for rehoming while the dog remains in your care, which I think would be preferable in this situation. And deffo a home check and full disclosure of history would be vital. I think you are right in saying that it would be very difficult to rehome a RB that has bitten another dog, but it won't be for want of trying on this end. Just hope it won't come to that as her owner will be distraught to lose her.

golden8

I thought I edited my post. I know dogs can be houdinis (my parents dog is great for that escaping). What I was trying to say is that was the other dog loose or under control of the owner? Sorry for the misunderstanding.

From what appears that the other dog was roaming free or am I mistaken.

DeeRottie

Ah I get you golden8. She was loose due to managing to escape from her owner's garden - something that hasn't happened before and that the owner is willing to take steps to prevent happening again. So when she bit the other dog she was loose. I totally understand why the owner of the dog that was bitten was upset, I would be in this situation. But I'm wondering if a warden will be willing to sit down and work with someone who wants to make every effort to try to be responsible. It just annoys me when there are so many owners out there that have their dogs wandering the streets day and night and just don't care. I have a Rottie and two smallies myself who are NEVER out on their own and are inside dogs. Just hope that I'll never be in the same situation where an accident happens and my dog is PTS because of it

ISDW

DeeRottie, I think golden8 is asking whether the dog that was bitten was loose or roaming, not your friend's dog.

DeeRottie

ISDW, my bad. I assumed the other dog was on a lead, as s/he was with the owner, but best to double check. Will let you know. Golden8 I'm the one who misunderstood, apologies!

DeeRottie

Ok got another text from my friend with an update:

The dog warden has told her that he will go to court and telling her because of previous incident he'll get it, but we thing he's full of it cos he keeps saying 'oh if u just rehome her i won't'. Turns out the other dog was off lead, possibly without an owner present but not entirely sure on that point just yet.

So what do you think, does this warden have a case or is he just trying to bully her?

DamagedTrax

DeeRottie wrote: »

Ok got another text from my friend with an update:

The dog warden has told her that he will go to court and telling her because of previous incident he'll get it, but we thing he's full of it cos he keeps saying 'oh if u just rehome her i won't'. Turns out the other dog was off lead, possibly without an owner present but not entirely sure on that point just yet.

So what do you think, does this warden have a case or is he just trying to bully her?

what was previous incident? was the dog warden called?

the worst that could happen if it went to court is a fine, a dog wont be PTS for getting in a fight with another dog unless it turns into a total psycho bloodbath.

the dog warden is just chancing his arm. i know what i'd be telling him to do but it may not be a good idea to abuse him if he's already on your friends back.

also, you never answered my previous question. does your friend live on a council estate or private housing?

gud4u

He could be just bullying her but the fact remains the dog has two strikes and a judge may just give the order for a quiet life..imagine the headlines if this dog escapes again....devil dog attacks despite pts order turned down...drama queen territory I admit, and with 3 RBs I feel your pain.

I don't see how rehoming is even an issue to be considered. I agree that the warden just wants the case out of his hands.

On a personal note, my JRT took on a bigger dog last week but as I was there to witness it and saw it was not the other dogs fault I covered vet bills myself. If no one actually saw what happened, then how can there be any case at all. Maybe, like my nutty mutt, the injured dog actually started it.

If your friens gets to keep her dog, she needs to work on correcting the dogs attitude to defending her, I had that with my GSD, it was pointed out to me on here as I didn't recognise it.

I hope it works out.

DeeRottie

DamagedTrax as I'm getting this info from a friend on behalf of her sis-in-law I don't know the full details of the first incident beyond what's in the OP. I did just find out she lives in a private estate, which is good, however apparently her neighbours are now ignoring her because of this which is quite sad.
This lady is not a scumbag with a status dog, she loves her dog and is very sorry for what happened and is trying to fix the situation without losing her dog.

DeeRottie

I agree with you gud4u, if she gets to keep the dog then I'll be telling them to bring her to the class I bring my 3 to.

gud4u

DeeRottie wrote: »

DamagedTrax as I'm getting this info from a friend on behalf of her sis-in-law I don't know the full details of the first incident beyond what's in the OP. I did just find out she lives in a private estate, which is good, however apparently her neighbours are now ignoring her because of this which is quite sad.
This lady is not a scumbag with a status dog, she loves her dog and is very sorry for what happened and is trying to fix the situation without losing her dog.

Even more heartbreaking, especially when she is going to such lengths to rectify the situation.

AFAIK, the warden has no say in a private estate, but I stand to be corrected if necessary.

I have to keep my Houdini Rotti pup inside till Wednesday untill the last section of our fence is secured. He got out twice untill we saw where it was loose,(he's able to climb over a sheepwire fence that's inside a row of evergreen!) but my heart nearly stopped when he wasn't in the garden.

I hope it turns out ok for your friend and her dog.

westies4ever

TheBegotten wrote: »

no dog will attack unprovoked.

are you for real????

DamagedTrax

DeeRottie wrote: »

DamagedTrax as I'm getting this info from a friend on behalf of her sis-in-law I don't know the full details of the first incident beyond what's in the OP. I did just find out she lives in a private estate, which is good, however apparently her neighbours are now ignoring her because of this which is quite sad.
This lady is not a scumbag with a status dog, she loves her dog and is very sorry for what happened and is trying to fix the situation without losing her dog.

if she's on a private estate she can tell the warden to go and jump. but it sounds like a little work is needed to keep the rottie from escaping again, if that warden ever sees it roaming your friend could find herself in court looking at a fine.

DamagedTrax

westies4ever wrote: »

are you for real????

i think what he means is that there is always a reason for an attack. they are dogs, just because the reason isnt obvious to us doesnt mean there's not one.

obviously discounting certain dogs that already have that DA in their breeding.

ResearchWill

DamagedTrax wrote: »

if she's on a private estate she can tell the warden to go and jump. but it sounds like a little work is needed to keep the rottie from escaping again, if that warden ever sees it roaming your friend could find herself in court looking at a fine.

I don't think section 16 of the control of dogs act 1986 limits the powers of a dog warden to local authority estates, if I am wrong can you point to legislation that does limit their powers.

Also section 22 is of interest,


Dangerous dogs.

22.—(1) Where—

(a) on a complaint being made to the District Court by any interested person that a dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, or

(b) on the conviction of any person for an offence under section 9 (2) of this Act,

it appears to the Court that the dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, the Court may, in addition to any other penalty which it may impose, order that the dog be kept under proper control or be destroyed.

It sound to me like the warden does not want to go down the DC road, so maybe has agreed with the other owner to an informal arrangement of rehousing.

DamagedTrax

ResearchWill wrote: »

I don't think section 16 of the control of dogs act 1986 limits the powers of a dog warden to local authority estates, if I am wrong can you point to legislation that does limit their powers.

in the case of a mild dog on dog attack with no serious injury on a private estate, i cant see anything under law that would give him the power to have a dog removed or PTS. a first offence RB off lead/muzzle incident is a fine IF it even goes to court.

a little canine argument does not make a dog dangerous, if that was the case we may well start lining up all our dogs cause 90% of them have had a little aggro with another dog at some stage.

my point about the council estate was that it is against the law to keep an RB listed dog on one and in that case the OP's friend wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

ResearchWill

DamagedTrax wrote: »

in the case of a mild dog on dog attack with no serious injury on a private estate, i cant see anything under law that would give him the power to have a dog removed or PTS. a first offence RB off lead/muzzle incident is a fine IF it even goes to court.

my point about the council estate was that it is against the law to keep an RB listed dog on one and in that case the OP's friend wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

The dog has escaped, bitten another dog, its a second incident it's prima facia a case that this dog is not under controll and is dangerous. The warden has the other owner more than likely demanding "justice" the dog warden is trying to keep everyone happy and has come up with a solution. If the OP's friend not happen she can refuse to rehouse and call wardens bluff. If warden go to DC then it is up to a judge to decide if section 22 applies and to make appropriate order that is either controll dog (in my opinion correct order in this case) or it is open to judge to order destruction if he finds that the dog is dangerous and not being controlled.

Nyan Cat

If they truly had a case for an aggressive dog he wouldn't be trying to get her to rehome it. It sounds like the PTS thing is a scare tactic to get her to rehome it - to wash his hands of it. That's how it reads.

DamagedTrax

The dog has escaped, bitten another dog, its a second incident it's prima facia a case that this dog is not under controll and is dangerous. The warden has the other owner more than likely demanding "justice" the dog warden is trying to keep everyone happy and has come up with a solution. If the OP's friend not happen she can refuse to rehouse and call wardens bluff. If warden go to DC then it is up to a judge to decide if section 22 applies and to make appropriate order that is either controll dog (in my opinion correct order in this case) or it is open to judge to order destruction if he finds that the dog is dangerous and not being controlled.

ok, but all you're doing is stating the law and how it applies to this case. the warden would need hard evidence firstly. word of mouth would not be enough to take the dog and get the case to court especially if there were no visible injuries to the other dog (which was also off lead by the way). so advice to OP's friend is make sure the dog is secure in future and call the wardens bluff.

ResearchWill

DamagedTrax wrote: »

ok, but all you're doing is stating the law and how it applies to this case. the warden would need hard evidence firstly. word of mouth would not be enough to take the dog and get the case to court. so advice to OP's friend is make sure the dog is secure in future and call the wardens bluff.

A person must have witnessed the dog biting another other wise how did anyone know. The person who witnessed it has to give evidence once that evidence is before the court and believed then the court may find the dog dangerous and not under proper control.

DamagedTrax

ResearchWill wrote: »

A person must have witnessed the dog biting another other wise how did anyone know. The person who witnessed it has to give evidence once that evidence is before the court and believed then the court may find the dog dangerous and not under proper control.

but the other dog wasnt badly hurt. its just one persons word against another with no hard evidence. you really think that would even get to court?

ResearchWill

Nyan Cat wrote: »

If they truly had a case for an aggressive dog he wouldn't be trying to get her to rehome it. It sounds like the PTS thing is a scare tactic to get her to rehome it - to wash his hands of it. That's how it reads.

Most wardens love dogs, and in such a situation as this do not want the matter before a judge who may order the destruction. It seems to me the warden is trying to get a good outcome.

ResearchWill

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but the other dog wasnt badly hurt. its just one persons word against another with no hard evidence. you really think that would even get to court?

It matters not what I think, the warden can put the matter before a judge, the evidence can be given in court if the court believes it the court can order the destruction. Do I think that would be a good outcome in this case, No, if it was my dog would I take the risk, No.

The warden might be bluffing but there is nothing to stop him putting the matter before a court.

BTW most criminal matters before the DC every day are one persons word against another, that's why we have judges they decide which one they believe.