Water fluoridation should be scrapped!

lesserspottedchloe

If they expect people to now start paying for water then there should be a vote on whether or not we would like to continue to add Fluoride to it. Personally I don't think it should be allowed. Dental hygiene has come on leaps and bounds since the days where this was seen as a viable option-regular brushing, healthy diet and dentist visits are enough.

TheChizler

laylah wrote: »

Dental hygiene has come on leaps and bounds since the days where this was seen as a viable option-regular brushing, healthy diet and dentist visits are enough.

I suppose the rationale is that dentist visits would have to become even more regular.

Kev.OC

From what I remember from college, in a nutshell, fluoride is added to water for more than just healthy teeth. It's done to kill any bacteria that might be in the pipes. And God knows our water distribution pipes are far from perfect. On average we're losing a big % of the water that leaves the treatment plants before it reaches any taps. And if water can get out of the pipes, (granted, under pressure) it's not entirely impossible that contaminants can get into the system after treatment. In my opinion, fluoride is the lesser of two evils.

partyatmygaff

That's chlorine you're thinking of (Sodium hypochlorite to be precise).

_AVALANCHE_

opinion guy wrote: »

Razleavy wrote: »

Civil Engineer here so have seen it all. I love drinking my clean, chlorinated and fluoridated water.

Why do people always forget the aluminium ?

He must not of seen that, or the other 3 that go in after it.

wendell borton

What about the dihydrogen monoxide it killed a lot more people than the flouride!!!!

Capt'n Midnight

wendell borton wrote: »

What about the dihydrogen monoxide it killed a lot more people than the flouride!!!!

They neutralise it with hydric acid.

Razleavy

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

He must not of seen that, or the other 3 that go in after it.

(Alum, Poly) = First stage. Next Chemicals added (Cl + Fl) + lime in very rare cases ( Never been used in the 10 years that Foxes Den has been operating).

Enlighten me as to these other 3 chemicals that go in after after Alum (excluding Poly, Cl and Fl).

Proper use of DAF,etc. will lead to all that Poly and Alum that was added being removed again.

grohlisagod

Terry

It has probably already been asked, but why is this not in the CT forum along with the rest of the crazy stuff?

Stop smoking weed. It's making you paranoid.
Yes, it's a natural substance and has some medicinal value, but getting stoned all the time just messes with your head.

I've been drinking fluoridated water for 36 years and have never voted for FF or FG in the 18 years I've been eligible to vote.

Step away from the bong.

Capt'n Midnight

TBH it's just a distraction from stuff that is measurably dangerous.

Look at the number of suicides in this country.

And how many we could prevent by adding Lithium to the water supply.



*gets popcorn*

RichieC

grohlisagod wrote: »

I love this film and fking despise how idiots use it to tease people who dare question mass medication.

partyatmygaff

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TBH it's just a distraction from stuff that is measurably dangerous.

Look at the number of suicides in this country.

And how many we could prevent by adding Lithium to the water supply.



*gets popcorn*

Now that's what I call mind control :P


(It'd even be a good idea if it wasn't for the therapeutic index making it so risky)

Palytoxin

We have our own well so they can add whatever they like, won't affect me, but I can't see why everybody is getting so excited over it now

partyatmygaff

Palytoxin wrote: »

We have our own well so they can add whatever they like, won't affect me, but I can't see why everybody is getting so excited over it now

Your groundwater probably contains fluoride (And all sorts of other minerals/chemicals) anyway.

lesserspottedchloe

Terry wrote: »

It has probably already been asked, but why is this not in the CT forum along with the rest of the crazy stuff?

Stop smoking weed. It's making you paranoid.
Yes, it's a natural substance and has some medicinal value, but getting stoned all the time just messes with your head.

I've been drinking fluoridated water for 36 years and have never voted for FF or FG in the 18 years I've been eligible to vote.

Step away from the bong.

Huh? so by your logic: questioning the use of added chemicals to drinking water=Paranoid Cannabis smoker who's opinions are invalid.

Those are some wacky assumptions to be making, are you sure someone hasn't been adding a little 'something extra' to your water? :pac:

TheBegotten

Let's sort this through:

FACTS:

1. Minute amounts of Fluorine are added to the water in treatment plants, along with lots of other chemicals, most of which are regulators and bacteria killers.
2. Minute amounts of Fluorine are proven to reduce cavities in teeth by forming fluorapatite.
3. Comprehensive unbiased studies have shown a correlation between fluoridation and a reduction in dental problems.

my battery is out, here's the page:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine

opinion guy

TheBegotten wrote: »

Let's sort this through:

FACTS:

1. Minute amounts of Fluorine are added to the water in treatment plants, along with lots of other chemicals, most of which are regulators and bacteria killers.
2. Minute amounts of Fluorine are proven to reduce cavities in teeth by forming fluorapatite.
3. Comprehensive unbiased studies have shown a correlation between fluoridation and a reduction in dental problems.

my battery is out, here's the page:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine

Yeah thanks for straightening that out for us. In 12 pages nobody had mentioned any of those things :rolleyes:

Treora

TheBegotten wrote: »

FACTS:

1. Comprehensive unbiased studies have shown a correlation between fluoridation and a reduction in dental problems.

Facts - if you say it loud and often enough every belief becomes a FACT.

Unbiased studies are they the survey's that are kinda like clinical studies and empirical studies. You know, the ones that show causation. Coz correlation is just like causation - right!

Foxhound38

cu-ckoo, cuck-oo, cuckoo... :pac:

Methinks the OP has the tin-foil hat on a bit too tight today. Most of us have been drinking tap water here most of our lives and aren't dying of flouride poisoning just yet (probably have less tooth decay though)

Capt'n Midnight

Treora wrote: »

Unbiased studies are they the survey's that are kinda like clinical studies and empirical studies. You know, the ones that show causation. Coz correlation is just like causation - right!

you are forgetting some tiny facts

We know that fluoride is taken up by teeth and Fluorapatite is tougher than Hydroxylapatite. So there is a mechanism to explain why it works.

The original link between fluorine and dental health was found by working backwards.

BTW:
If you can suggest an alternative method to remineralise teeth please do so.

According to regulations, there is between 0.6 and 0.8mg of hydrofluosilicic acid per litre of tap water (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0042.html) which is fairly insignificant. You would have to drink over 30 litres of water before noticing any negative effects - the first one of which would be death due to water poisoning.

You consume fluoride every time you eat food, swim in the sea or drink water from almost any source. It's naturally present everywhere.

Treora

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

you are forgetting some tiny facts

We know that fluoride is taken up by teeth and Fluorapatite is tougher than Hydroxylapatite. So there is a mechanism to explain why it works.

What now! Fluoride does enter the blood stream and work its way to sub dentine, but has no effect on enamel.

The reason for any effectiveness of fluoride based toothpaste is that negative ions stop bacteria in your mouth from turning into acids as they consume sugars. Sugar is the cause of dental decay. Fluoride is essentially an ant-acid.

We have amoung the worst ranking for DMFT at age 12 out of 32 European countries http://www.eudental.eu/index.php?ID=35918. Do what the best do. Teach children in school at age 5 how to brush, every day for a year. Then do refreshers at 9, 13 & 15 - you know the Swedish way. And we could save all that money on testing fluoride rates and having denists recheck councils work ~ €60Mn

a5y

Treora wrote: »

What now! Fluoride does enter the blood stream and work its way to sub dentine, but has no effect on enamel.

The reason for any effectiveness of fluoride based toothpaste is that negative ions stop bacteria in your mouth from turning into acids as they consume sugars. Sugar is the cause of dental decay. Fluoride is essentially an ant-acid.

We have amoung the worst ranking for DMFT at age 12 out of 32 European countries http://www.eudental.eu/index.php?ID=35918. Do what the best do. Teach children in school at age 5 how to brush, every day for a year. Then do refreshers at 9, 13 & 15 - you know the Swedish way. And we could save all that money on testing fluoride rates and having denists recheck councils work ~ €60Mn

Anyone else think the reasonable thing to do would be to adopt "the Swedish Way" and continue with the flouride until the generations who didn't learn to brush their teeth properly are all in dentures anyway?

Sure its a really, really long term process, and there will still be a ton of these bloody threads on Boards.ie in the mean time since flouride is the liquid of the antichrist/dental messiah (delete where appropriate); but at least there'd be something resembling a coherent strategy rooted in solid science ("brushing teeth properly is good for your damn teeth") and there'd be a precedent in this country that it is acceptable to demand people to take reasonable care of their health.

Treora

The thing is that people are now pretty good at brushing teeth. The government could just do a series of surveys via schools to find out the quality and frequency of brushing and oral hygiene education in Ireland. But that might show that Irish mammies are doing a good job, watched American TV as kids and that gave them ideas on brushing teeth. Mothers want their children to be able to go to the dentist without having to fear a drill. And a survey would show the legislation to be pointless and costly. Governments don't like contradicting themselves.

I remember recently there was a hydrologist on an Irish radio show discussing water quality. When the presenter got a word in on the benefit of retaining water fluoridation the hydrologist said that she did a straw poll of 1st year university class that she lectures. And there was not one cavity/carie. She jumped to the correlative conclusion that it was the water. She never asked them how often they brush, who & when were they taught to brush, what was their knowledge of the cuases of cavities... This cognitive bias by the lecturer turned into authority suggestion towards the audiance and the presenter just let it flow.

How does Ireland have the dept of health budget for this (€60Mn) and we are €240Mn-€500Mn in the hole. There is no empirical evidence on a national level to prove the efficacy of this treatment. Basel Switzerland is the only place we can reasonable compare ourselves as they had water fluoridation for over a decade. They replaced it with education and their DMFT @ 12 went down the following year proving empirically that oral hygiene education is more effective than fluoridated water. The problem is that most legislators can only think in terms of prohibition or compulsion.

uch

[http://omg.wthax.org/Fluoride_YourNotGoingToPoison.jpg

Dude111

I voted YES ... There is no reason for that stuff to be in water really.....

Jester252

No. Every time there is a change in the water supply somebody messes up

Dude111

Ya that I agree with you with!!

Whenever the water company does something here BIG,the water gets all cloudy for a few days!!

YUK......

Worztron

alastair

Worztron wrote: »

Someone should tell this man that the high levels of fluoride that can cause his scary list of nasties, has nothing to do with the low levels of fluoride used in fluoridation schemes. Toxicity is dose-dependent.

And that you really shouldn't turn J-Cloths into curtains.

hooradiation

alastair wrote: »

Someone should tell this man that the high levels of fluoride that can cause his scary list of nasties, has nothing to do with the low levels of fluoride used in fluoridation schemes. Toxicity is dose-dependent.

But if he didn't lie how do you expect him to fill nearly four minutes of youtube worthy material?

They don't let just anybody put videos up there, you know....

Starfox

Its simple really, We should have a choice about this, and i know most people would vote for no Fluoride.

98% of Europe has banned water fluoridation.. Why? because its not safe!

Everything you need to know about Fluoride, and its dangers, here.

As part of the Cork Environmental Forum, Environmental Scientist Declan Waugh gave a presentation entitled 'Fluoride in Drinking Water, History of Water Fluoridation and Implications for Ireland'.
This is a short interview with the man in question, covering some of the main issues he addresses in his presentation.
It is an absolute scandal that such fantastic research has been met with a wall of silence from so many people of power in this country.

Ziphius

What's up with so many people using YouTube videos in place evidence backed arguments.

Starfox

Ziphius wrote: »

What's up with so many people using YouTube videos in place evidence backed arguments.

So are you basically discrediting information because its on youtube?, thats clever

Ziphius

Starfox wrote: »

So are you basically discrediting information because its on youtube?, thats clever

Yes. Just because it's on YouTube doesn't make it true.

Jimoslimos

Starfox wrote: »

It is an absolute scandal that such fantastic research has been met with a wall of silence from so many people of power in this country.

Just no. It's not really.

Ziphius

Starfox wrote: »

So are you basically discrediting information because its on youtube?, thats clever

opinion guy

Ziphius wrote: »

Yes. Just because it's on YouTube doesn't make it true.

No but because youtube videos about stuff like this take up SOOOOOO much time it means I'm not watching them. Only people who watch these are the converted.

Tooth decay is not generally life-threatening, though on occasion it can be. It is expensive to treat, and if left untreated it can impair the quality of life of those who have it. Tooth decay causes pain, can result in difficulty eating, causes bad breath, may cause facial disfigurement, and if sufficiently advanced has a significant effect on the self-confidence of sufferers.

Tooth decay is also easily preventable by fluoridation. That can be achieved by the fluoridation of water supplies, or by topical fluoridation (e.g. of toothpastes). The problem with the latter is that poorer and less-educated people are less likely to follow basic dental hygiene guidelines.

So there you have it - the main beneficiaries of fluoride in water are poor people.

And who gives a crap about poor people? Certainly not tinfoil hat wearers bleating about first world problems. :rolleyes:

Johro

mikemac1 wrote: »

Free drugs piped right to your home

They promised us Lithium. Ah the recession..

Tiddlypeeps

Starfox wrote: »

Its simple really, We should have a choice about this, and i know most people would vote for no Fluoride.

98% of Europe has banned water fluoridation.. Why? because its not safe!

Everything you need to know about Fluoride, and its dangers, here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQArORf_Dcs

As part of the Cork Environmental Forum, Environmental Scientist Declan Waugh gave a presentation entitled 'Fluoride in Drinking Water, History of Water Fluoridation and Implications for Ireland'.
This is a short interview with the man in question, covering some of the main issues he addresses in his presentation.
It is an absolute scandal that such fantastic research has been met with a wall of silence from so many people of power in this country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70wuP5V8Pwg

Got as far as "nature wouldn't have screwed up on something so fundamental as what a baby needed for healthy growth" in the first video and stopped watching.

Water is naturally fluoridated in lots of places. In places where the fluoride concentration is higher than 1.5 parts per million the water even needs to be defluoridated.

Here is a map showing the parts of the world that have such high levels of naturally occuring fluoride in the water that defluoridation is needed.

Linking to a guy who claims to have read a scientific paper without backing up anything he says is not evidence.

The only argument I've ever heard against fluoridating water that I feel is reasonable is the argument against medicating people without their consent. That argument can be countered by the fact that fluoride is naturally occurring in so many places, but it doesn't dismiss it completely. If somebody feels that water shouldn't be fluoridated on those ground then I won't disagree with them.

Every other argument I've heard revolves around the fact that fluoride can be toxic if the does is high enough. That arguent is invalid when it comes to water fluoridation because the dose is so low. Dose is the most important factor with toxicity. Banana's are toxic if you eat enough of them, so is coffee and lots of other substances that are consumed by people every day. No legitimate study has ever concluded that fluoridating water between 0.5 and 1.0 parts per million is anything other than beneficial to human health. Here is a report published on the subject

If you have any actual evidence that disproves that then I would love to see it. If not then stop trying to fill peoples heads with garbage until you have the evidence to support your claims.

Ziphius

Deleted User wrote: »

Tooth decay is not generally life-threatening, though on occasion it can be. It is expensive to treat, and if left untreated it can impair the quality of life of those who have it. Tooth decay causes pain, can result in difficulty eating, causes bad breath, may cause facial disfigurement, and if sufficiently advanced has a significant effect on the self-confidence of sufferers.

Tooth decay is also easily preventable by fluoridation. That can be achieved by the fluoridation of water supplies, or by topical fluoridation (e.g. of toothpastes). The problem with the latter is that poorer and less-educated people are less likely to follow basic dental hygiene guidelines.

So there you have it - the main beneficiaries of fluoride in water are poor people.

And who gives a crap about poor people? Certainly not tinfoil hat wearers bleating about first world problems. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I mean how much does water fluoridation cost per person? A couple of cents? And how much will it save in dental bills.

Ziphius

Ziphius wrote: »

Exactly. I mean how much does water fluoridation cost per person? A couple of cents? And how much will it save in dental bills.

I have no idea, to be honest, what Ireland spends on fluoridation of water supplies. What I do know is that having (mostly) grown up before fluoride was added to water or toothpaste, I have eight fillings, and at a rough estimate getting them and repairing them will end up costing me around €5-6,000 over the course of my lifetime.

Poor people can't afford that kind of money, and given the state of Ireland's finances the taxpayer can't afford it either.

Ziphius

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea, to be honest, what Ireland spends on fluoridation of water supplies. What I do know is that having (mostly) grown up before fluoride was added to water or toothpaste, I have eight fillings, and at a rough estimate getting them and repairing them will end up costing me around €5-6,000 over the course of my lifetime.

Poor people can't afford that kind of money, and given the state of Ireland's finances the taxpayer can't afford it either.

I think I underestimated a bit. According to this anti-fluoridation site (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101469) it costs less than €4 million to fluoridate the water supply per year. Less than €1 per person per year!

tiger55

Deleted User wrote: »

Fluoride prevents tooth decay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP7IPDfC3yg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZBRBPgTOt0

tiger55

tiger55 wrote: »

Conspiracy theory video 1

Conspiracy theory video 2

What exactly do you have against poor people? :rolleyes:

Ziphius

Again, any evidence other than YouTube videos?

Tiddlypeeps

Starfox wrote: »

It is an absolute scandal that such fantastic research has been met with a wall of silence from so many people of power in this country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70wuP5V8Pwg

I decided it was unfair to dismiss the second video based on the idiotic claims made in the first so I went back and watched it.

Wow! The entire video can be basically be summarised into "I read lots of stuff on the internet that told me fluoride was bad, I spent years doing it therefore you should believe me on those grounds".

The technical term for the fluoride intolerance he mentions in the video is Salicylate sensitivity. Fluoride isn't the only substance that tigers it and it is incredibly difficult to maintain a salicylate free diet because the diet would be so restricted.

Everything else he mentions in his video is a case of him assuming that correlation implies causation. It does not. He provides no evidience linking the various illnesses he mentions their being a high rate of in Ireland to water fluoridation.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

About the only thing these threads are good for is bulking up the old ignore list.