Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The relict hominid enquirey

Options
2»

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Great article from the Yakama post.
    This is the first of a six-week series on Sasquatch, a gigantic, reclusive beast that walks on two legs deep within our remote forests — or, depending on one’s beliefs, only deep within the recesses of gullible minds. This series is not intended to promote or dispel belief in Sasquatch, but will focus largely on the evidence, efforts and experiences of those who advocate acceptance of its possible existence. Why? Because as a whole, the worlds of science and “common knowledge” dismiss it as, as scholar and conservationist Ian McTaggart Cowan noted, “a charming story.”
    Writing about what is commonly accepted isn’t a charming story, or even interesting.
    The unacceptable being championed by anecdotal evidence and scientists willing to consider it, though, is intriguing.
    “The public in general, and the scientific community more importantly, believe there can’t be any such thing,” says John Green, a retired British Columbia newspaper publisher who has researched Sasquatch for a half-century. “Some call themselves skeptics. How can you be a skeptic when you’re just trumpeting what everybody believes? They’re not skeptics.
    “Skeptics are people like me who don’t accept what everybody believes.”
    Consider this series, by that standard, a study in skepticism.
    • • •
    YAKIMA, Wash. — Do you believe somewhere within the deep, wooded slopes of the Cascades and other remote forests there exists an eight-foot-tall, hairy beast walking on two legs?
    050412_AS_Sasquatch_0066-300x194.jpgThom Powell, left, talks about The London Trackway with Tom Rutledge during the Richland Bigfoot conference in Richland, Wash. Friday May 4, 2012. Powell was one of the people who examined and made casts from tracks found in a lake bed south of Eugene, Ore. (ANDY SAWYER/Yakima Herald-Republic)

    Do you believe in Sasquatch? In Bigfoot?
    It’s basically a yes-or-no question. People usually fall into one of two groups: those who are convinced Bigfoot exists, and those who believe people in the first group should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery.
    Believers are fervent, sometimes even devout. It matters to them. It’s personal. In many cases, they — or someone they know — have seen, heard or sensed something that, in their minds, could only be explained by accepting the seemingly inconceivable.
    Non-believers couldn’t care less. For them, the whole idea is a crock of hooey. Sasquatch? Yeah? How about the Tooth Fairy, you believe in that too?
    No, say the believers. Just Sasquatch.
    You might be surprised at how many people are OK with the concept of a race of giant, two-legged forest denizens.
    According to a 2011 Northwest poll by PEMCO Insurance, 40 percent of Washington residents believe Sasquatch could be a reality. In that same poll, 13 percent say they’ve either seen one or know someone who has.
    If that number seems high — 13 percent of nearly 7 million? seriously? — consider this: The number of reported Sasquatch sightings or other “close encounters” over the years is upwards of 40,000.
    One Bigfoot researcher has followed up on nearly 400 reports in the Wenatchee area alone. In Yakima County, the closed area of the Yakama Reservation and the thickly forested hills around Bumping Lake have each been the site of literally dozens of reported sightings.
    Many of those 40,000 reports involved multiple people who saw or heard the same thing.
    Bigfoot sightings have been reported by police and military officers, by college professors and scientists, by loggers and backpackers, by construction contractors and car-campers, and by couch potatoes who think of the great outdoors as the place where the car lives.
    Are they all crazy? Deluded? Drunk or drug-addled? Are they part of some loose-knit but far-reaching hoax?
    Or are they simply the tip of a much larger iceberg? Are there thousands more out there who saw something they can’t explain, but are keeping quiet about it to avoid being ridiculed?
    If the latter is true, their silence is understandable.
    A Blewett Pass resident says he and his nephew encountered a “huge creature … eight, nine feet tall” killing chickens in the coop behind his cabin in the winter of 1976-’77. The creature escaped despite their shooting it at point-blank range with a shotgun, says the cabin owner, who notified the Chelan County sheriff and almost wishes he hadn’t because of the weeks that followed.
    “The newspapers got hold of it,” he says, “and made fools of us.”
    A forestry technician with the Yakama Nation says his willingness to look into Bigfoot reports has gotten him in hot water with his superiors.
    “I got taken aside by one of my higher-ups,” the forester says. “He told me, ‘What are you doing, why are you investigating these and openly reporting this material? What you’re doing, if we know something’s there, you’re shutting this whole forest down! It’ll be like the spotted owl situation — protocol will have to be followed. Basically, you’re going to turn us into a reserve. There won’t be any logging allowed at all.’
    “I thought that was a little extreme. Hey, you guys don’t believe me anyway, so what does it matter?”
    A college professor and anthropologist specializing in the evolution of bipedalism (walking on two legs) saw his own career jeopardized when the promotion process turned to scrutiny of his research into alleged Sasquatch tracks.
    Another renowned scientist was driven to the verge of tears when he realized he was beginning to accept what he had repeatedly and quite publicly denounced — that Sasquatch, cause celebre of the wacko set, might, in fact, exist.
    Could it all be a hoax? Some reports have been proven so.
    With others, it’s not as easy to discern the truth, such as the famous 1967 Patterson-Gimlin film. Nearly a half-century later, it remains the subject of heated debate — more than a decade after a Yakima man, Bob Heironimus, swore under oath that he, wearing a monkey suit, was the creature on that jittery, blurred footage.
    But if it’s all a hoax, it’s unimaginably elaborate and expensive — as well as historic in scope, dating back hundreds of years.
    Tribal lore of Native American peoples from California to Canada includes stories of giant, hairy humanoids variously referred to as Hairy Man, Giant of the Woods and Hairy Giant. They are depicted on centuries-old pictographs. Even the term Sasquatch is derived, and somewhat anglicized, from a Salish tribal term for such a creature.
    Hoaxers would also have to go to remarkable lengths to perpetrate the ruse, because tracks have been found in places so remote it’s surprising they were even found.
    On a December day in 1998 two foresters found three distinct track trails of bare footprints in the snow, measuring 22, 18 and 8 inches — a family unit? — on the Yakama Reservation’s closed portion, in thick woods unlikely to attract picnickers, hikers or even hunters.
    And then there were the tracks found 21 years ago at a remote Canadian lake by two journalists, one of them a documentary filmmaker from Minnesota.
    The lake is accessible only by float plane and inhabited only seasonally by the few dozen anglers who visit the lake’s lone fishing lodge. The two men, there to film a story about fishing for huge lake trout, were on an impromptu boat trip when they happened to stop at a sandy shoreline a good 10 miles from the lodge.
    There they found and followed a long line of barefoot, 17-inch tracks with a 42-inch stride that continued, unbroken, off into the endless tundra.
    “The whole thing didn’t make sense to me,” the filmmaker says. “There’s no way anybody would go to any lengths to hoax something up there. Nobody would ever find the tracks. Not a chance.”
    And what can we make of the thousands of eyewitness reports?
    If not Sasquatch, what are they all seeing and hearing? Bears?
    Try telling that to the retired Army colonel who, as a 16-year-old elk hunter in the Blue Mountains, spotted a towering, hairy beast through his hunting rifle’s scope, magnified such that the animal looked to be barely 45 yards away. The creature appeared so “man-like” that the hunter felt guilty even watching it through his rifle scope.
    But because he was too fascinated to look away, he kept watching it — for 45 minutes.
    Ohio paralegal Melissa Hovey has never seen a Sasquatch — “so,” she says, “I can’t tell the world they’re out there” — but has interviewed hundreds of what she describes as credible witnesses before and since becoming president of the American Bigfoot Society.
    “I’ve spoken with politicians, with oil magnates, police officers, people in the military, factory workers. Police officers or military people may be more believable or credible, but they’re telling the same thing. Why would all these people be telling the same story? They don’t want to be involved in something that sounds crazy,” she says, “but they come from all walks of society.
    “You can’t watch and listen to what they’ve gone through and say they’re crazy — because if you don’t believe what they’re saying, that’s what you’re saying. And that’s not fair.
    “Either it’s a misidentification with another animal or they’re really seeing what they say they’re seeing. It’s one or the other.”
    Not surprisingly, many “Bigfooters” share a sort of gallows humor about how the world perceives them.
    The skeptical wife of a Bureau of Indian Affairs timber appraiser hated hearing her husband talk about his and other forest workers’ Sasquatch sightings deep within the wooded Cascade foothills.
    Then last February, while driving from White Swan to her job in Yakima in the pre-dawn darkness, she saw in her headlights what she later described as a large, hairy, two-legged animal cross Branch Road in front of her, step easily over a barbed-wire fence and disappear into the darkness.
    “Now,” cracks one of her husband’s co-workers, “she’s in the crazy club with the rest of us.”


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,264 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Reads a bit biased to me, can't say I agree with their definition of a skeptic either :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Reads a bit biased to me, can't say I agree with their definition of a skeptic either :D

    Which parts are biased though? Well John green rasies an interesting point about skepticism.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,264 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Which parts are biased though? Well John green rasies an interesting point about skepticism.

    The whole thing, I just found the language used to be quite biased towards the believers and none of the stories it puts forward are particularly convincing imho.

    As for the skepticism thing, well in fairness a true skeptic isn't just someone who "doesn't accept what everyone believes", its someone who doesn't accept something which lacks adequate evidence or proof to back it up.

    Don't get me wrong though, it's an interesting read.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    The whole thing, I just found the language used to be quite biased towards the believers and none of the stories it puts forward are particularly convincing imho.

    As for the skepticism thing, well in fairness a true skeptic isn't just someone who "doesn't accept what everyone believes", its someone who doesn't accept something which lacks adequate evidence or proof to back it up.

    Don't get me wrong though, it's an interesting read.

    Well their either lying about seeing a creature or not. The credibility wont come from one or two sightings but over two thousand similar sightings. They could have included some a skeptics opinion on why it couldnt or doesnt exist in fairness. The term skeptic is an interesting on though and regardless of its meaning I would be more John green's kind of skeptic (John green is the guy mentioned in the article and my previous post who worked with promatologists to collect reports). I think a skeptic questions belief systems. In my view those who feel that the foot prints are all hoaxed and people are all lying about the same thing are holding a belief about that. They have no evidence to suggest that everything is hoaxed.


  • Advertisement
  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,264 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well their either lying about seeing a creature or not. The credibility wont come from one or two sightings but over two thousand similar sightings. They could have included some a skeptics opinion on why it couldnt or doesnt exist in fairness. The term skeptic is an interesting on though and regardless of its meaning I would be more John green's kind of skeptic (John green is the guy mentioned in the article and my previous post who worked with promatologists to collect reports). I think a skeptic questions belief systems. In my view those who feel that the foot prints are all hoaxed and people are all lying about the same thing are holding a belief about that. They have no evidence to suggest that everything is hoaxed.

    You could literally use that line of thinking to justify a belief in anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You could literally use that line of thinking to justify a belief in anything.

    Im not justifying belief but pointing out that both sides of the argument contain belief. I cant go out now and prove bigfoot exists but the people holding up the hoax theory can go out and replicate the multitude of footprints found. I have seen one or two attempts but they havent replicated the tracks on every variable using only equitment found at the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭Adam Khor


    This whole sasquatch thing... well, I've already told you my take on the whole matter. Not that I have a solid posture, really... I'm usually open to all possibilities.
    However, after reading some of the "encounter" accounts, I couldn´t help but to remember a personal experience of mine.

    The first experience was when I was a kid, during the early 90s. I remember there was a comet passing close to Earth and because my father had a telescope, we decided to go out to a remote hill out of the city to take a good look at it.
    Unfortunately, it got cloudy and we never saw the comet, but we did return home with a tale to tell. Just when we were giving up on the comet, we heard heavy footsteps and movement on the bushes near where we were. Because it was very dark, we never saw what it was- it may have been a feral cow or donkey or some other sort of domesticated animal (it sounded way too heavy to be a deer).
    However, and although that was the logical explanation, absolutely none of us ever imagined such thing. See, at the time the headlines were often occupied by a mysterious predatory "monster" that had supossedly been killing cattle in the area. It was one of those "cryptids" no one ever has good evidence for, yet everyone had heard of it, and so it was that creature we all imagined when we heard the noises. No one said its name outloud- we all just imagined the thing was out to get us and ran for the safety of the van. It was only after we left the place that reason returned and we started to consider more mundane creatures.

    I'm pretty sure a fright can create monsters in your imagination, especially when in a dark forested place where you can´t see what's around you- so u jump to the scariest/weirdest conclusion at the slightest sound or fleeting shadow.
    I'm not saying all bigfoot sightings are like this, but probably many of them. I have another personal experience that shows even more how fear can twist reality in a person's mind, to the point of one actually seeing things that aren´t there, but it is somewhat embarrasing and besides, one shouldn´t talk about his phobias online :D So I'll leave it at that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'd be similar. I'd put a small bet down that Neandertals(and similar cousins from Asia) survived in remote areas up to at least 15,000 years ago. The lack of evidence in remains doesn't trouble me so much. After all we've less than 20 examples of Neandertal individuals and most of those are fragments. We don't have a full skeleton. One species type skeleton exists but it's a combination one. This is of a human that lived for over 200,000 years(at least). Over that time there would likely have been a million of them. Other evidence like stone tools? Some are a grey area. IE they look like transition technologies and as such are ascribed to us. It's possible they made them.
    Just as a point of information regarding Neanderthals. There are substantially more than 20 individuals recovered at this stage. Its varies according to how you measure it but I know about at least 1500 teeth have been recovered. If you consider sites like Krapina, Vinjina, Shanidar, Spy you could quickly exceed 20 individuals on the basis of skulls etc. There is some population estimates using genetics and its remarkable how low the population estimates are. So each preserved specimen is a miracle in its self.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Adam Khor wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure a fright can create monsters in your imagination, especially when in a dark forested place where you can´t see what's around you- so u jump to the scariest/weirdest conclusion at the slightest sound or fleeting shadow.

    It's hard wired into our instincts after millions of years of diurnal living. Since our primary sense (eyesight) does not work well in the dark and our other senses are not as well developed we are at a massive disadvantage at night. To stop us getting into trouble our brains are conditioned to imagine the worse case scenario in such situations and fear takes over so that we will be more likely to flee than to investigate. It is one of those instances where our more basic instinctual urges outweigh the rational part of our brain.
    I've been in situations myself (many times) where I'd be walking home at night, hear a noise and imagine a mugger or psycho killer creeping up nearby only for a cat to be the source of said disturbance. I would imagine many, perhaps most Bigfoot etc. 'encounters' are based in similar circumstances.


  • Advertisement
  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,264 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Galvasean wrote: »
    It's hard wired into our instincts after millions of years of diurnal living. Since our primary sense (eyesight) does not work well in the dark and our other senses are not as well developed we are at a massive disadvantage at night. To stop us getting into trouble our brains are conditioned to imagine the worse case scenario in such situations and fear takes over so that we will be more likely to flee than to investigate. It is one of those instances where our more basic instinctual urges outweigh the rational part of our brain.
    I've been in situations myself (many times) where I'd be walking home at night, hear a noise and imagine a mugger or psycho killer creeping up nearby only for a cat to be the source of said disturbance. I would imagine many, perhaps most Bigfoot etc. 'encounters' are based in similar circumstances.

    Sometimes fear isn't even the trigger, people often times will see things for no other reason than they really really want to.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    robp wrote: »
    Just as a point of information regarding Neanderthals. There are substantially more than 20 individuals recovered at this stage. Its varies according to how you measure it but I know about at least 1500 teeth have been recovered. If you consider sites like Krapina, Vinjina, Shanidar, Spy you could quickly exceed 20 individuals on the basis of skulls etc. There is some population estimates using genetics and its remarkable how low the population estimates are. So each preserved specimen is a miracle in its self.
    Sorry R yea I should have narrowed it down to somewhat more complete specimens, rather than fragments etc. On the densities it's a hard one. The genetics shows small populations, but that might be explained by closer breeding. That said one indicator of low population might be that it appears no large animal extinctions can be pinned on them, quite unlike us when we show up. The amount of fragments/teeth etc isn't so amazing in one respect. They were around for a very very long time. Longer than we have been, so overall there would have been quite a lot of them.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



Advertisement