Powers of the Gardai

Procrastastudy

Obviously any thread on this is an emotive one, so is there any possibility that people could keep their posts to a higher standard than the average night in the pub? I'm not looking for the work of Socrates here - god knows my own posts are pretty daft but just some semi-intelligent points that may give me the direction some think I need.

• What specifically do people have a problem with in relation to the powers of the Gardai in the current form?
• What are the issues with the Gardai having very wide latitude in searching people and vehicles when there is even a 'reasonable suspicion' of wrong doing?
• What is a reasonable suspicion?
• If it were to change what would be the alternative? Where does society draw the line?

Above all please don't attack each other. Also if I could ask that people stay off the topic of dwelling searches as that is a very different animal.

Sorry if that's just made you think 'cheeky fecker'!

chops018

All very eloquently addressed in the brilliant Professor Dermot Walsh's recent book: Human Rights and Policing in Ireland: Law, Policy and Practice. I really recommend reading this, some brilliant arguments made on police powers both domestically and internationally.

couch_dweller

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Obviously any thread on this is an emotive one, so is there any possibility that people could keep their posts to a higher standard than the average night in the pub? I'm not looking for the work of Socrates here - god knows my own posts are pretty daft but just some semi-intelligent points that may give me the direction some think I need.

• What specifically do people have a problem with in relation to the powers of the Gardai in the current form?
• What are the issues with the Gardai having very wide latitude in searching people and vehicles when there is even a 'reasonable suspicion' of wrong doing?
• What is a reasonable suspicion?
• If it were to change what would be the alternative? Where does society draw the line?

Above all please don't attack each other. Also if I could ask that people stay off the topic of dwelling searches as that is a very different animal.

Sorry if that's just made you think 'cheeky fecker'!

are you related to the poster known as LATER , ? , has a joe duffy avatar , your style so reminds me of him

krd

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

• What specifically do people have a problem with in relation to the powers of the Gardai in the current form?

Well, their not as bad as it is in England - where they do thousands of stop and searches. Which can be a humiliating and infuriating experience. And really doesn't serve any purpose, other than to humiliate and infuriate people. It's counter productive on so many levels.

Or it's not as bad as it is in parts of the US. Where the police can arrest and prosecute you for more or less committing the crime of walking down the street in an area where they don't think you belong. Free country my arse. I knew Americans who were done for driving under the influence of drugs, when they weren't even anywhere near a car - and were carrying amounts of weed that would barely earn a caution here. In a state like Virginia, the police sometimes like to piss pub owners off by walking in and arresting people at the bar. It's legal to sell alcohol in Virginia, but it is completely illegal for any level of public intoxication. So, if you're in a bar in Virginia having a few pints you are breaking the law. If you hold hands with someone in Virginia you're breaking the law -if you kiss someone in public, you're breaking the law.

• What are the issues with the Gardai having very wide latitude in searching people and vehicles when there is even a 'reasonable suspicion' of wrong doing?

They're on a fishing expedition. I don't drive any more. One reason is the stops and searches. They can be a bunch of ****s. Swearing at me. Taking the piss out of my car. Emptying the glove compartment contents on the floor - reading personal letters. Saying sarcastic ****. It's all coming back to me - what an bunch of pricks. Armed garda showing me his holstered gun in a threatening fashion. Calling me a "f***** liar". I don't know what they were trying to do, unnerve me, or make me lose my temper.

• What is a reasonable suspicion?

Reasonable suspicion, would be not looking like an Irish "success" story - one of those paddies who wears a shirt and tie under his jumper. And drives a car worth more than his annual salary - of course during the boom years one of these boys would have given up their jobs to become full time gentleman property speculators. Ignorant as dog ****, likes playing golf and following the rugby. Reads the Sunday Independent - is enraged by anyone who does not live the same lifestyle as themselves having any enjoyment in life.

Reasonable suspicion is driving an old second hand car. Any indication that you may be from the lower income groups, is an automatic indication of criminality. When I was driving, just the fact my car was old would make feel nervous about getting stopped and searched.

They look at you. And then they decide if you're a knacker or not. The guards out in Castleknock got caught rotten. They stopped an old guy and his wife, and took their car for not having vehicle registration tax (the guards were in the wrong and the correct documentation was actually in the car and presented to them). They were very rude to them (I've had experience with the Castleknock brigade, they are arseholes). They made the couple walk down the motorway. The guards had to pay over a hundred grand in damages. They probably took one look at the man - decided he was an "odd ball", and they could have their fun and punish the "odd ball" at the same time. Of course, he turns out to be worth something like 50 million. When you have that kind of money, you can kick a lot of arse. And he kicked some arses.

• If it were to change what would be the alternative? Where does society draw the line?

Where does society draw the line? It depends on what you mean by society. We're only recently emerging from a time where everything in society - everyone's lifestyle - everything, was dictated by middle-class, middle-brow, middle-Ireland. These guys believe they are society - the farmers of men. What business is it of those far arses with the tie under their jumper, how anyone else lives their lives. These guys don't get stopped. And that is why, when criminals are transporting drugs around the place, they dress up like them - shirt and tie under the jumper.

What's the aim of these searches - is it "let's harass the knackers and the odd balls".

A garda would go bananas if I were able to stop him, verbally abuse him, open
his glove compartment and throw all his stuff on the floor. Read out a private letter. They'd go mental.

I would put money on it, that virtually 100% of ever major drug haul, is not from stopping cars on suspicion, but from information from informants.

Finnbar01

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

What specifically do people have a problem with in relation to the powers of the Gardai in the current form?

I think the worry is that the gardaí may get too many powers which will lead to abuse.

In the UK over 400,000 people were stopped and searched under some new terrorism act that labour brought in. AFAIK, noone was found to be breaking the law.

Also the laws in relation to knives was tighten up big time. This lead to art students (sculptors), tradesmen, fishermen etc being arrested and cautioned because they were carrying knives.

I have no problem with laws and regulations per se, my gripe is that:

* We are trying to rule and regulate our lives away.
* The laws will be abused by those responsible for enforcing them.
* We are infantilising the population if they begin to think that all life's problems can be legislated away.
* We have enough laws as it is already and we need them to be implemented rather then bringing in a whole lot more.

MagicSean

krd wrote: »

I would put money on it, that virtually 100% of ever major drug haul, is not from stopping cars on suspicion, but from information from informants.

You would lose that money.

source

Garda search powers don't go far enough imo, for example when it comes to theft a Garda has no power to search a suspected offender for stolen items until after they have arrested them on suspicion of having committed the offence.

That's just plain wrong, and it makes no sense.

couch_dweller

source wrote: »

Garda search powers don't go far enough imo, for example when it comes to theft a Garda has no power to search a suspected offender for stolen items until after they have arrested them on suspicion of having committed the offence.

That's just plain wrong, and it makes no sense.

so you think a guard should be able to search someones property willy nilly , what if a neighbour with a grudge gave false information about jimmy up the road ?

MagicSean

couch_dweller wrote: »

so you think a guard should be able to search someones property willy nilly , what if a neighbour with a grudge gave false information about jimmy up the road ?

He's referring to powers of stop and search. If your house is robbed and you call the gardai and tell them that a green hiace drove off from the property and then they stop that hiace 1 minute later there is no statutory power to search the vehicle for stolen property. The people must be arrested and the vehicle seized first. So if you are the unlucky owner of a green hiace who happened to be driving in the area you could find yourself subject to an arrest rather than a search.

cursai

couch_dweller wrote: »

so you think a guard should be able to search someones property willy nilly , what if a neighbour with a grudge gave false information about jimmy up the road ?

Your forgetting about the power of common sense. Although some have argued this is an underused power.

kippy

Sorry OP, I am just going to possible go off on a tangent.
In my opinion, the major criminal issues in this country are not to do with the power of the Gardai (or lack thereof) but the failure of the legal system in ensuring that persistent lawbreakers are locked up and "retrained" in a proper fashion.
How often do we read about someone with X prior convictions getting another conviction or committing another crime? I mean anyone can make a mistake when they are young but to keep committing criminal offenses and keep getting out??
Whether these are issues with overcrowding in our prisons, the legal profession, the law or judges, I have no idea.

One power the gardai appear to be severly lacking in ( and this could be more to do with manpower and skills issues) is the power to deal with white collar crime. I don't know why we have such low rates of it in this country....

couch_dweller

cursai wrote: »

Your forgetting about the power of common sense. Although some have argued this is an underused power.

no time for ambigous vaguery , common sense is an entirely subjective thing

couch_dweller

kippy wrote: »

Sorry OP, I am just going to possible go off on a tangent.
In my opinion, the major criminal issues in this country are not to do with the power of the Gardai (or lack thereof) but the failure of the legal system in ensuring that persistent lawbreakers are locked up and "retrained" in a proper fashion.
How often do we read about someone with X prior convictions getting another conviction or committing another crime? I mean anyone can make a mistake when they are young but to keep committing criminal offenses and keep getting out??
Whether these are issues with overcrowding in our prisons, the legal profession, the law or judges, I have no idea.

One power the gardai appear to be severly lacking in ( and this could be more to do with manpower and skills issues) is the power to deal with white collar crime. I don't know why we have such low rates of it in this country....

the reason little is done about white collar crime is political and AGS has always been riddled with politics

Procrastastudy

source wrote: »

Garda search powers don't go far enough imo, for example when it comes to theft a Garda has no power to search a suspected offender for stolen items until after they have arrested them on suspicion of having committed the offence.

That's just plain wrong, and it makes no sense.

MagicSean wrote: »

He's referring to powers of stop and search. If your house is robbed and you call the gardai and tell them that a green hiace drove off from the property and then they stop that hiace 1 minute later there is no statutory power to search the vehicle for stolen property. The people must be arrested and the vehicle seized first. So if you are the unlucky owner of a green hiace who happened to be driving in the area you could find yourself subject to an arrest rather than a search.

I'm wondering if someone would mind expanding on this? I don't doubt its correct - I just can not reconcile it with my understanding that the guards can search you / your vehicle in almost any situation. I assume it's down to some rule later on down the line, such as a rule of evidence? Thanks in advance.

BornToKill

A guard may only search a person or a vehicle in accordance with one of the powers given to him/her. A guard can conduct a search:

1. pursuant to a search warrant,
2. upon arrest of a suspect,
3. with consent, or
4. pursuant to legislative mandate.

If the search is to be pursuant to a legislative mandate the the legislation establishs what is required in order for the search to be lawful e.g. section 23(1) Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 sets out the powers of search in relation to possession of controlled drugs.

If the legislation does not confer a discrete power of search on the gardaí, and the person does not consent to a search, then an arrest may be necessary in order to empower them to search a suspect - as for theft.

Kevin3

There is a power of search for burglary, aggravated burglary and robbery under Section 8 of the Criminal Law Act 1976:

8.—(1) This section applies to:

(a) an offence under the Act of 1939 or an offence that is for the time being a scheduled offence for the purposes of Part V of that Act;

(b) an offence under section 2 or 3 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 ;

(c) murder, manslaughter or an offence under section 18 of the Offences against the Person Act, 1861;

(d) an offence under section 23, 23A or 23B of the Larceny Act, 1916;

(e) an offence of malicious damage to property involving the use of fire or of any explosive substance (within the meaning of section 7 (1) (e) of this Act);

(f) an offence under the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1971;

(g) escape from lawful custody;

(h) an offence under section 11 of the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1973 , or under section 10 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 ;

(i) an offence under this Act.

(2) Where a member of the Garda Síochána who with reasonable cause suspects that an offence to which this section applies has been, is being or is about to be committed requires a person to stop a vehicle with a view to ascertaining whether—

(a) any person in or accompanying the vehicle has committed, is committing or is about to commit the offence, or

(b) evidence relating to the commission or intended commission of the offence by any person is in or on the vehicle or on any person in or accompanying it,

he may search the vehicle, and if (whether before or after the commencement of the search) he suspects with reasonable cause that any of the facts mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) above exists, he may search any person in or accompanying the vehicle.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána may use reasonable force in order to compel a person to comply with a requirement to stop a vehicle, and such force may include the placing of a barrier or other device in the path of vehicles.

(4) Any reference in subsection (1) of this section to an offence includes a reference to attempting or conspiring to commit the offence.

(Bold sections replaced by sections 12, 13 and 14 of the Criminal Justice Act (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

It is ludicrous that there isn't a power of search for other theft offences though.

England and Wales have an excellent power of search under Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 which allows a power of search for:

Stolen property, offensive weapons, knives, fireworks and anything connected with: Burglary, Theft, Theft of Motor Vehicle, Fraud and Criminal damage.

There are already sufficient powers of search for offensive weapons, knives, fireworks and burglary here but none for the rest which are the most important parts, in my opinion.

I wonder what the legal position is with arresting a person essentially only to conduct a search. For example; arrest on suspicion of theft (shoplifting), conduct the search and when nothing is found during the course of the search there are no longer reasonable grounds for believing they have committed the offence and immediately release them from custody. The arrest could be based on the information from a security guard saying they think they saw the offender putting items into their bag.