Monthly pay strikes fear.

blackwhite

Milk & Honey wrote: »

TO: Each Branch Secretary – Attention All Members
Crc: 029/12
Date: February 22nd 2012
Re: Proposals to move to monthly pay

Dear Colleagues

Please bring this Circular to the attention of all your members.

At the most recent General Council meeting it was agreed to set up a sub-group to examine draft proposals to introduce monthly pay in the Civil Service for all grades. Currently COs are paid weekly and SOs fortnightly. We expressed serious concern and opposition to monthly pay. ..............

Does this mean that they decided to oppose the monthly pay out of hand, without consulting their members at all?

Nothing reactionary about that at all. Why does it always seem that opposing any change is the default position of union leadership in this country?

splendid101

micropig wrote: »

There has been a 25% increase in benefits they can claim through membership of the union; Financial benefits, Dental benefit, optical benefit, hospital benefit, mortality benefits.............so it's incorrect to say that net salary is all they get

It's been said already but these are benefits for union members. This comes from Union money. You've to pay 1% of your wages towards these benefits.

I get €398 per week net. My gross is €25,376 approx.

You need to do more research or be less reactionary.

splendid101

I think a lot of people who are passionately anti-public sector need to realise that the vast majority of public servants are just ordinary workers like anyone else in the private sector.

dvpower

splendid101 wrote: »

I think a lot of people who are passionately anti-public sector need to realise that the vast majority of public servants are just ordinary workers like anyone else in the private sector.

... with gauranteed jobs for life and automatic payrises.

Milk & Honey

splendid101 wrote: »

like anyone else in the private sector.

They are not in the private sector so how can they be like anyone else in it?

midlands1

micropig wrote: »

The Fear, the fear.....they should hide under their beds




That's their net salary....how much of it do they earn? €20




Not according the CPSU

Do they have the badges with the little stars like McD's?

If the public service is that good why don't we all join them

xflyer

midlands1 wrote: »

If the public service is that good why don't we all join them

Because it won't be that good forever and you can be sure new joiners will be on less money and worse terms.

splendid101

dvpower wrote: »

splendid101 wrote: »

I think a lot of people who are passionately anti-public sector need to realise that the vast majority of public servants are just ordinary workers like anyone else in the private sector.

... with gauranteed jobs for life and automatic payrises.

So what? We're still ordinary workers. I only earn €400 per week. I consider that to be a low wage. I earned more in the private sector. Anyone is free to apply for a Civil service position. Come and have a go if you think your hard enough.

What should I do, quit just because I can't be fired and my low wage becomes slightly less low atomically each year? I'm just trying to make a living like everyone else.

splendid101

Milk & Honey wrote: »

splendid101 wrote: »

like anyone else in the private sector.

They are not in the private sector so how can they be like anyone else in it?

Because we're employees.

What the f*ck sort of attitude do you have to life?

dvpower

splendid101 wrote: »

So what? We're still ordinary workers.

Apart from the guaranteed job for life and the automatic pay rises. That might seem ordinary to you, but it really isn't.

splendid101 wrote: »

I only earn €400 per week. I consider that to be a low wage. I earned more in the private sector.

It may well be a low wage, but as you recognise, you are free to try and to better in the private sector.

splendid101 wrote: »

Anyone is free to apply for a Civil service position. Come and have a go if you think your hard enough.

Not so. Recruitment to the CS is restricted to certain grades only and to the bottom rung of those grades. Not like the private sector where recruitment generally happens at all levels.

splendid101 wrote: »

What should I do, quit just because I can't be fired and my low wage becomes slightly less low atomically each year?

No. You should stick where you are, at least until the recession is over. You have a fantastic deal.

bobbysands81

dvpower wrote: »

Apart from the guaranteed job for life and the automatic pay rises. That might seem ordinary to you, but it really isn't.

There are NO automatic pay rises in the CS.

I presume you're talking about increments which are linked to performance, performance not up to standard and you don't get increment. Even considering increments received my take home pay is down circa 20%. Every cent of this circa 20% goes back to the exchequer to be distributed to where it's needed most. The irony of a pay cut in private sector is that the State is returned less money as the worker pays less tax. The PS are doing their bit, every single worker has been savaged. There's a huge swathe of Irish society that has not been hit, why not save your ire for them?

dvpower wrote: »

It may well be a low wage, but as you recognise, you are free to try and to better in the private sector.

I know of not one person who joined the CS who got a pay rise, I earned more as a delivery man than I did at management level in CS.

Over 60% of people in CS earn less than 40k a year. Nobody earns over 200k which is astonishing considering there's approx 32,000 workers and a budget of tens of billions.

Any comparison of our CS to other similar ones shows us in a glowing light but there'll always be begrudgers. Time and time again we have proved that we "do more with less" when compared to other European countries.

dvpower wrote: »

Not so. Recruitment to the CS is restricted to certain grades only and to the bottom rung of those grades. Not like the private sector where recruitment generally happens at all levels.

Rubbish. Every single grade within the CS is open to anyone to apply for. (There are some competitions confined to serving CS but ALL grades (including Secretary General) have had open competitions.)

So why not have a go at getting in if it's so good? Be prepared for thousands of folk going for a handful of jobs though, it ain't always easy making the cut.

dvpower wrote: »

No. You should stick where you are, at least until the recession is over. You have a fantastic deal.

In not trying to say there's no waste and wasters in the CS, I'm not trying to make out that we always work in bad conditions but folk like you who argue out of ignorance (that is not meant as abuse but is based on your false assertions above) and lies they read in the Irish independent really have no clue what goes on in the CS.

Apply for a job, give it a go, and let us know of your experiences.

sbsquarepants

splendid101 wrote: »

So what? We're still ordinary workers. I only earn €400 per week. I consider that to be a low wage. I earned more in the private sector. Anyone is free to apply for a Civil service position. Come and have a go if you think your hard enough.

What should I do, quit just because I can't be fired and my low wage becomes slightly less low atomically each year? I'm just trying to make a living like everyone else.

Can't be fired and guaranteed pay rise each year. Do you know what the word "ordinary" means? Granted your wages aren't great, but your situation is far from ordinary, let's be honest!
If i was told tomorrow my wages would go up every year from now on and also i couldn't be fired, well, that would probably cheer me up quite a bit - but that situation would be quite extraordinary now wouldn't it!

bobbysands81

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Can't be fired and guaranteed pay rise each year. Do you know what the word "ordinary" means? Granted your wages aren't great, but your situation is far from ordinary, let's be honest!
If i was told tomorrow my wages would go up every year from now on and also i couldn't be fired, well, that would probably cheer me up quite a bit - but that situation would be quite extraordinary now wouldn't it!

But you're wrong.

Just because a lie gets repeated constantly doesn't make it the truth.

Kosseegan

splendid101 wrote: »

Because we're employees.

What the f*ck sort of attitude do you have to life?

You are NOT employees. You are office holders. It shows the state the country is in when it is being run (supposedly) by people do not even know what they are!

mikemac1

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Can't be fired

Civil servants can certainly be fired

dvpower

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There are NO automatic pay rises in the CS.

I presume you're talking about increments which are linked to performance, performance not up to standard and you don't get increment.

Increments are, for all intents and purposes, automatic. One needs to be fairly incompetent to fail to get an increment in my experience.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There's a huge swathe of Irish society that has not been hit, why not save your ire for them?

I have no ire for public or civil servants. I would like them to at least acknowledge the many conditions that they have that are not shared by private sector workers (but also some of the conditions that private sector employees sometimes have that they don't).

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I know of not one person who joined the CS who got a pay rise, I earned more as a delivery man than I did at management level in CS.

If you're telling me that you are in the CS and you don't know anybody who is on an incremental scale and have received an increment, then I wouldn't believe that.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Rubbish. Every single grade within the CS is open to anyone to apply for. (There are some competitions confined to serving CS but ALL grades (including Secretary General) have had open competitions.)

A small proportion of all recruitment is open to all. Of the posts that are open, sucessful outside candidates must join on the bottom of the scale, whereas sucessful inside candidates start on the point of the scale above their current earnings.
There is little incentive for a skilled, experienced worker to move into the civil service, because they cannot negootiate to enter at a point above the botton, no matter what experience they have.
It is pretty much a closed shop. Even the posts that are open are disproportionately filled internally.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So why not have a go at getting in if it's so good? Be prepared for thousands of folk going for a handful of jobs though, it ain't always easy making the cut.

Been there, done that - it wasn't that good.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

In not trying to say there's no waste and wasters in the CS, I'm not trying to make out that we always work in bad conditions but folk like you who argue out of ignorance (that is not meant as abuse but is based on your false assertions above) and lies they read in the Irish independent really have no clue what goes on in the CS.

I spent eight years in the CS, so I'm not arguing out of ignorance.

My experience was that staff weren't valued or properly utilised. Mainly because local management had no control over staff budgets, so couldn't prioritise, say, a new IT system over x staff numbers. Advancement wasn't based on merit (mostly senior suitable at the time, where you waited for your number to come up, and if you weren't a complete waster, you got promoted). Depending on where you worked, you might be sitting around doing nothing, asking for work, or you might be worked to the bone - just pot luck. The civil service, in my experience, is a mess - this is mostly the fault of bad management and selfish unions.

dvpower

mikemac1 wrote: »

Civil servants can certainly be fired

On paper, but very rarely practised. Being an established Civil Servant is the safest job in the country.

splendid101

dvpower wrote: »

Apart from the guaranteed job for life and the automatic pay rises. That might seem ordinary to you, but it really isn't.

Yes. Apart from that. I go to work every day and work my hours, do my job, have a boss that gets on my back etc. etc. I'm just a worker. Not someone to be demonised or judged just because my job has some nice perks. Like I said, what should I do, quit?

It may well be a low wage, but as you recognise, you are free to try and to better in the private sector.

It is a low wage.

Not so. Recruitment to the CS is restricted to certain grades only and to the bottom rung of those grades. Not like the private sector where recruitment generally happens at all levels.

You can apply for jobs that become available just like I did. If it's such an extraordinary job why didn't more people apply for it?

Can't be fired and guaranteed pay rise each year. Do you know what the word "ordinary" means? Granted your wages aren't great, but your situation is far from ordinary, let's be honest!
If i was told tomorrow my wages would go up every year from now on and also i couldn't be fired, well, that would probably cheer me up quite a bit - but that situation would be quite extraordinary now wouldn't it!

I'm just some jerk that goes to an office for eight hours a day. Just an ordinary employee. It's not my fault if I can't be fired. Even if I could be fired, I wouldn't be because I work hard and do my job. Just like you or anyone else reading this who is employed. Most people anyway.

My wages are sh*te.

You are NOT employees. You are office holders. It shows the state the country is in when it is being run (supposedly) by people do not even know what they are!

Are you making some sort of technical/pedantic/semantic argument which is entirely irrelevant? Or do you have a real point to make? I do my f*cking job, what more do you want from me?


I think the civil service is in need of a huge amount of reform. I'm just sick of hearing people demonising civil service employees and spouting the same ignorant nonsense over and over.

On the actual topic at hand, I'm dreading the thought of being paid monthly. It's a major pain in the ass and the fact that my wages are low makes it more difficult. I wish they'd release figures on how much it's going to save - approximates at least.

Anyway, evening though it's going to be sh*t getting paid monthly I do agree that they should move us over - every little helps as Tesco like to say. Better to have the small saving made by putting us onto monthly pay than by further reducing our wages.

splendid101

dvpower wrote: »

On paper, but very rarely practised. Being an established Civil Servant is the safest job in the country.

What about a professional moderator on boards.ie?

OldNotWIse

My name is URL wrote: »

Urge to kill rising.

How do these people manage to dress themselves in the morning? Jesus christ.. it's not harder to budget on a per month basis rather than on a per week one.. it's the same fcuking budget.. just done differently!

Exactly. I love the way they say, "try earning 400 in a week and then budget for a month" - er, it will only happen once that you will have to suffer out the three weeks, then you will be getting around FOUR times that... tut tut :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well following this we should increase the dole too

And give them "queue time"

splendid101

Late at night I like to take out my civil service contract and masturbate over the part written in bold; "can never be fired". It makes me so horny.

sock puppet

dvpower wrote: »

A small proportion of all recruitment is open to all. Of the posts that are open, sucessful outside candidates must join on the bottom of the scale, whereas sucessful inside candidates start on the point of the scale above their current earnings.
There is little incentive for a skilled, experienced worker to move into the civil service, because they cannot negootiate to enter at a point above the botton, no matter what experience they have.
It is pretty much a closed shop. Even the posts that are open are disproportionately filled internally.

What a load of crap.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-10-11.548.0

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-23.489.0

The salary might not be up to their expectations, but they're earning the same as other civil servants. As for the pay scale it doesn't make a difference at management level as far as I know, as the worst paid AP earns more than the best paid AO and so on, so any civil servant would get a pay rise anyway.

Stiffler2

everyone that works in the public sector needs to be assisanated immediately.

premierstone

Stiffler2 wrote: »

everyone that works in the public sector needs to be assisanated immediately.

Are you saying you dont avail of any of the services they provide, and you wouldnt notice their removal??

Here's a clue its in the title ''Public Sector''

dvpower

sock puppet wrote: »

What a load of crap.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-10-11.548.0

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-23.489.0

Not sure what point you're trying to make with those PQs. Some jobs at management level are filled from outside.

sock puppet wrote: »

The salary might not be up to their expectations, but they're earning the same as other civil servants. As for the pay scale it doesn't make a difference at management level as far as I know, as the worst paid AP earns more than the best paid AO and so on, so any civil servant would get a pay rise anyway.

That's true for the very high grades, but not for the vast majority of Civil Servants

A serving CO at the top of the scale (€35,515) who gets promoted to EO starts on point 5 (€35,749).
A non civil service applicant who may have similar or more relevant experience starts on point 1 (€29,024) - more than €5k less for the exact same job.

This is an outdated practice, where people are paid, not on merit, but for the time they've sat in the seat.

gazzer

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Can't be fired and guaranteed pay rise each year. Do you know what the word "ordinary" means? Granted your wages aren't great, but your situation is far from ordinary, let's be honest!
If i was told tomorrow my wages would go up every year from now on and also i couldn't be fired, well, that would probably cheer me up quite a bit - but that situation would be quite extraordinary now wouldn't it!

You are wrong with those comments. Yes there are increments but they dont go on indefinately. You get to the top of the CO scale after approx 14 years. If you stay a CO you dont get any other increment and the way things are going with recruitment and promotion embargos you are very likely to be remain at the grade you are for the foreseeable future. There are people who are the top of their pay scale for years now and have not seen any increments in a long time. There are no promotion opportunities where they are so they cant advance up the ladder.

hondasam

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Can't be fired and guaranteed pay rise each year. Do you know what the word "ordinary" means? Granted your wages aren't great, but your situation is far from ordinary, let's be honest!
If i was told tomorrow my wages would go up every year from now on and also i couldn't be fired, well, that would probably cheer me up quite a bit - but that situation would be quite extraordinary now wouldn't it!

Everyone knows all about the PS except the people that work there.

Majority of workers get a pay rise every year or did maybe not as much now.

sock puppet

dvpower wrote: »

Not sure what point you're trying to make with those PQs. Some jobs at management level are filled from outside.



That's true for the very high grades, but not for the vast majority of Civil Servants

A serving CO at the top of the scale (€35,515) who gets promoted to EO starts on point 5 (€35,749).
A non civil service applicant who may have similar or more relevant experience starts on point 1 (€29,024) - more than €5k less for the exact same job.

This is an outdated practice, where people are paid, not on merit, but for the time they've sat in the seat.

Fair enough. I thought you were talking about management grade. My mistake.

Stiffler2

premierstone wrote: »

Are you saying you dont avail of any of the services they provide, and you wouldnt notice their removal??

Here's a clue its in the title ''Public Sector''

Of course I do, just sick of them though.

Their unions
Their massive salaries
Their 4 hour week

but mostly their unions constatnly moaning about anything & everything while the private sector sit quietly in the corner and pay their taxes which probably pay 75% of the public sectors wages, then Ireland borrows to pay the rest of the public sector wages

We can't afford to borrow ffs, cut half of them ( the older one's on big salaries )
and reduce their pay to minimum wage, if they moan or send in the union's, fire them and hire the dole scrongers who can do it for less, if they dis-agree cut their dole.

Oh How I would dictate, I'd probably turn Ireland into the most profitable country in the world if I were in power.

hondasam

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Oh How I would dictate,

Oh and everyone loves a dictator.

Milk & Honey

splendid101 wrote: »

Late at night I like to take out my civil service contract and masturbate over the part written in bold; "can never be fired". It makes me so horny.

You don't have a contract. You are not an employee. What part of being a Civil Servant do you not understand?

dvpower

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You don't have a contract. You are not an employee. What part of being a Civil Servant do you not understand?

Civil Servants do have contracts.

hondasam

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You don't have a contract. You are not an employee. What part of being a Civil Servant do you not understand?

Everyone has a contract. How is he/she not an employee.

woodoo

dvpower wrote: »

... with gauranteed jobs for life and automatic payrises.

Take a look at page 10 of this report. And marvel at the efforts of the PS.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Galwayguy35

hondasam wrote: »

Everyone knows all about the PS except the people that work there.

Majority of workers get a pay rise every year or did maybe not as much now.

I didn't, got €25 rise in 5 years, most of my friends in PS lower paid jobs have the same story.

hondasam

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I didn't, got €25 rise in 5 years, most of my friends in PS lower paid jobs have the same story.

That's terrible, how come you have not got a pay rise?
When I worked in the private sector I got a yearly rise as did most people I know. I don't know if it happens now.

Milk & Honey

hondasam wrote: »

Everyone has a contract. How is he/she not an employee.

Civil Servants do not have contracts of employment. They are office holders. This has been established by the High Court.

Patrick Gilheaney , Applicant v. The Revenue Commissioners, Respondents
[1994 No. 395 J.R.]


Held by Costello J.,

in refusing the application forcertiorari and the declarations sought, 1, that civil servants were holders of an office to which they were appointed by the Minister (or his delegatee) who fixed the terms and conditions of salary under which their office was held.

the applicant was appointed by the respondents under their statutory powers and was an office holder.

In so far as the court is asked to imply a term in a contract between the applicant and the respondents it must fail as (a) there exists no contract of employment into which a term could be implied

K-9

Stiffler2 wrote: »

but mostly their unions constatnly moaning about anything & everything while the private sector sit quietly in the corner and pay their taxes which probably pay 75% of the public sectors wages, then Ireland borrows to pay the rest of the public sector wages.

Income tax tax take is about €13 Billion, take out Public Servant taxes, probably about €10 Billion. Pay bill is about €18 Billion, not even 75%, more like 55%.

We can't afford to borrow ffs, cut half of them ( the older one's on big salaries )
and reduce their pay to minimum wage, if they moan or send in the union's, fire them and hire the dole scrongers who can do it for less, if they dis-agree cut their dole.

Oh How I would dictate, I'd probably turn Ireland into the most profitable country in the world if I were in power.

Yeah, would also be a dictatorship but small details like that don't seem to bother you.

Milk & Honey

dvpower wrote: »

Civil Servants do have contracts.

They do not have contracts of employment.
Why would the High Court have said they do not have contracts of employment if they did?

Daith

hondasam wrote: »

When I worked in the private sector I got a yearly rise as did most people I know. I don't know if it happens now.

We used to. Then it stopped for a few years as the company tried to struggle with the recession and changed to adapt.

I was happy with that compared to some friends who were told to take a pay cut or work less hours.

hondasam

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Civil Servants do not have contracts of employment. They are office holders.

What about public servants?

Galwayguy35

hondasam wrote: »

That's terrible, how come you have not got a pay rise?
When I worked in the private sector I got a yearly rise as did most people I know. I don't know if it happens now.

We ask for it but are told the company can't afford it and if we don't like it then the door is there.

woodoo

hondasam wrote: »

What about public servants?

I'm a public servant and i have a contract.

K-9

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You don't have a contract. You are not an employee. What part of being a Civil Servant do you not understand?

What's the difference between an employee and an office holder then?

Basically, what is your point?

PS. Do you have a link for that case?

hondasam

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

We ask for it but are told the company can't afford it and if we don't like it then the door is there.

Can the company afford it or were they always like this even in the good times?
Some companies use the recession as an excuse not to give pay rises.

woodoo wrote: »

I'm a public servant and i have a contract.

Same here.

Milk & Honey

K-9 wrote: »

What's the difference between an employee and an office holder then?

Basically, what is your point?

PS. Do you have a link for that case?

The citation is in my post. If you have access to a legal database you can find the case.
Some civil servants posting here seem to think they are employees which of course they are not. Office holders do not have rights under a contract.

Galwayguy35

hondasam wrote: »

Can the company afford it or were they always like this even in the good times?
Some companies use the recession as an excuse not to give pay rises.

They are making money but they want as much work out of us as cheap as possible.

hondasam

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

They are making money but they want as much work out of us as cheap as possible.

Seems to be the case everywhere now even in the public service, I know some people find that hard to believe but some of us do actually work.

Milk & Honey

hondasam wrote: »

Can the company afford it or were they always like this even in the good times?
Some companies use the recession as an excuse not to give pay rises.




Same here.

Who signed the contract on behalf of the employer?