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feedback on Consumer Issues forum/any threads about legal issues

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  • 06-05-2012 7:55pm
    #1
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭


    Hi, The Consumer Issues forum is great but so many threads get bogged down with bad advice from Joe Soaps talking about "the law" that is nothing more than either what they heard in the pub, or what they think should be the law.
    As a result many of the threads are just full of 1 person talking ****e and another person actually quoting the law.
    Is it possible that the charter for the forum (and possibly on Boards in general) could be changed such that if you talk about "the law" or something being illegal, you have to quote/provide a link to the relevant law?

    cheers!
    Post edited by Shield on


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    #2
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    I agree that there is sometimes a problem such as Magenta describes.

    There is, however, a difficulty in the proposal that people should quote or link the law on which they might base their advice. Sometimes that is simply not practicable, because some consumer rights are based on case law and some might even be rooted in common law, which is not always easily cited. I think, for example, that I am correct in saying that there is no full legal definition of "contract" to be found anywhere. Yet contract is at the basis of consumer rights.


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    #3
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I think, for example, that I am correct in saying that there is no full legal definition of "contract" to be found anywhere. Yet contract is at the basis of consumer rights.

    A contract is any agreement, verbal or written, where, between adults, there is an offer, acceptance of that offer, valuable consideration,and the contract does not contain any illegality in purpose. There is a whole section of law devoted to contracts but that is the base definition.

    The problem with consumer issues is that many people think that accepting the price on a label constitutes a contract. In fact, the contract only exists when you offer money at the till and it is accepted as payment. The cashier can refuse your offer completely legally - A price sticker is only an invitation to treat.


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    #4
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I agree that there is sometimes a problem such as Magenta describes.

    There is, however, a difficulty in the proposal that people should quote or link the law on which they might base their advice. Sometimes that is simply not practicable, because some consumer rights are based on case law and some might even be rooted in common law, which is not always easily cited. I think, for example, that I am correct in saying that there is no full legal definition of "contract" to be found anywhere. Yet contract is at the basis of consumer rights.
    Orion wrote: »
    A contract is any agreement, verbal or written, where, between adults, there is an offer, acceptance of that offer, valuable consideration,and the contract does not contain any illegality in purpose. There is a whole section of law devoted to contracts but that is the base definition.

    The problem with consumer issues is that many people think that accepting the price on a label constitutes a contract. In fact, the contract only exists when you offer money at the till and it is accepted as payment. The cashier can refuse your offer completely legally - A price sticker is only an invitation to treat.

    Hmmmm... I think I see where the OP is coming from.


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    #5
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Orion wrote: »
    A contract is any agreement, verbal or written, where, between adults, there is an offer, acceptance of that offer, valuable consideration,and the contract does not contain any illegality in purpose. There is a whole section of law devoted to contracts but that is the base definition.
    All of this without citation! And there are further points to be made.
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Hmmmm... I think I see where the OP is coming from.
    Yup.


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    #6
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    All of this without citation! And there are further points to be made.

    I was purely responding to your assertion that "contract" is not defined. It's over 20 years since I studied contract law in college but I do remember the basics. I'm not going looking for citations on it but they are there if you want to look them up yourself. I did state that that was just the base definition - of course there are further refinements and enhanced consumer rights. But tbh a lot of "I know my rights" arguments are bollox based on a misunderstanding of the basics.


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    #7
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Orion wrote: »
    I was purely responding to your assertion that "contract" is not defined. It's over 20 years since I studied contract law in college but I do remember the basics. I'm not going looking for citations on it but they are there if you want to look them up yourself. I did state that that was just the base definition - of course there are further refinements and enhanced consumer rights.
    1. You can't or won't give a citation for what you tender as a definition of a contract;
    2. There are a number of respects in which the definition is either inadequate or contestable.
    3. I never said that a contract is not defined.

    You make my point for me: if people were to be precluded from posting in the Consumer Issues forum if they could not cite legal sources for every point they make, then the forum would be crippled.
    But tbh a lot of "I know my rights" arguments are bollox based on a misunderstanding of the basics.
    We can agree on that. And it is particularly irritating when it takes the form of "I know your rights" when a person comes to the forum seeking advice, nonsense like "You are entitled to a full refund on your television if the remote control fails after 6 months" or "Of course you are entitled to bring the blouse back for a refund if you decide the colour does not suit".

    The problem is that if you demand citations for bad advice, you should also be able to give citations for good advice, and there are often circumstances where that is unduly difficult.


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    #8
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    Orion wrote: »
    The problem with consumer issues is that many people think that accepting the price on a label constitutes a contract. In fact, the contract only exists when you offer money at the till and it is accepted as payment. The cashier can refuse your offer completely legally - A price sticker is only an invitation to treat.

    This is exactly the type of thread I'm talking about.

    "I was buying a sack of spuds in Tesco earlier and tried to pay with a €500 note, they refused, can they do this?".

    Cue several "THAT'S ILLEGAL!!!! They can't refuse legal tender!!!" before someone brings up Invitation to Treat.

    Then as P. Breathnach mentioned you get the rest...


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    #9
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    The problem is that if you demand citations for bad advice, you should also be able to give citations for good advice, and there are often circumstances where that is unduly difficult.

    Plus, there might be people (like myself) who have worked as a retail manager and would know the day to day workings of the systems like the back of their hand- but barely know what the word citation actually means.


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    #10
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Magenta wrote: »
    ... "I was buying a sack of spuds in Tesco earlier and tried to pay with a €500 note, they refused, can they do this?".

    Cue several "THAT'S ILLEGAL!!!! They can't refuse legal tender!!!" before someone brings up Invitation to Treat....
    Not to mention that there are also matters to clarify about legal tender and whether a retailer can be obliged to give change.

    I like to think that I have some reasonable understanding of consumer rights, but will readily admit that my knowledge is not perfect. And it does get right up my nose when people give bad advice, often expressed intemperately (the "THAT'S ILLEGAL!!!!" captures it perfectly).

    But I can't see how to stop it happening on boards.ie, which is generally organised on the basis of open access for all except those who have earned themselves a ban.


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    #11
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    First off - thanks to Magenta for creating this thread. It really is good to see posters who care enough to actually give feedback on Consumer Issues.

    Personally speaking - I am not very much in favor of obliging people to link to the law or provide citations. To me that would make the forum too technical, more like Legal Discussion.

    Over the years, I have found that the right advice tends to make itself heard. If someone adds "THAT'S ILLEGAL", then there always are more informed posters who will correct them. To me, that's the beauty of Boards - it's a self-correcting entity, that is overall right more often than it is overall wrong.

    Speaking as Mod and CMod - The mod team and I will look into this and see if there is something that we could take on board.

    One idea is to perhaps create a set of links to relevant common topics - i.e. the Sale of Goods Act, a definition of Invitation to Treat etc.

    If you have any ideas, please feel free to post them here, so that they can be considered.


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    #12
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Today I cited case law in support of a point made by another poster in Consumer Issues. Instead of achieving my objective of reinforcing the advice given, it resulted in argument.


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    #13
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Today I cited case law in support of a point made by another poster in Consumer Issues. Instead of achieving my objective of reinforcing the advice given, it resulted in argument.

    And you expected a different result? Noob :p


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    #14
    Magenta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭Magenta


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Today I cited case law in support of a point made by another poster in Consumer Issues. Instead of achieving my objective of reinforcing the advice given, it resulted in argument.

    Are you referring to this thread? I hope not, as I don't see any argument.


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