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What is happening in De la Salle?
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The New's and Star are not known for their investigative journalism afaik! So this story was given to them in it's entirety by who else but the teachers who are not happy.
I think the above is a fair and valid point.So the teachers or an element of them are not happy with the Principal, and they are not getting the backing of their Union ASTI, so they go a solo route of character assination in the local papers, immaterial to the damage to the schools name.
This is just plain wrong, no other words for it, but revenge is a dish best served cold, they have shot their bolt and now must wait for, and suffer the consequences.0 -
For those who work as teachers, or in the civil service as a whole, can any of you provide any insight into the employee performance rating system which was introduced in the last couple of years?
From what I understand, civil servants who receive a poor score do not receive their annual pay increment. Is this system applicable to teachers?
From what I've read in the newspapers, this system is a total farce also, with the vast majority of people getting a high enough score to guarantee their increment, regardless of their performance, which is costing the State way over what it should be, but at least it is a start.
From a friend of mine working in Social Welfare, " do you think I'm going to give a bad score to the lazy wan in the office and have the union all over my back"0 -
Like I posted earlier, this is a similar story to that of another city school. At one point the principle let their guard slip with me during a private meeting about my child and said that if he was not seen to back the teachers, that "they would be out at the gates". This particualr principle was hated by the teachers because he would not accept poor standards and lazy teachers.
I am not privy to what is happening in De la salle, but it sounds familiar. If the union is not backing the teachers then in my mond it is plain to see that they are the issue and not the principle. Any teacher or set of teachers that resort to rubbishing the principle to pupils or resort to going underhand to the local papers, then imo what goes around comes around.0 -
While there may be staff who aren't happy about the principal trying to bring in changes, he is surely mismanaging the budget in a major way. They're €500,000 in debt like. I've been told that, since he arrived, there are tvs in hallways, couches bought, a juice bar set up and numerous other extravagances. He surely has a case to answer on all that, no?
I was gone from DLS a while before O'Brien arrived so I don't know the man at all. I'm just going on what I've read online and what I've been told by some people.0 -
Would be curious to know the 'real story' behind all this, can it really be as simple as a handfull of disgruntled lazy teachers trying to get one over on a principal? Juice bars, leather couches, aquariums, flat screen TV's all seem way over the top when (if it can be believed) unqualified or poorly qualified sub-teachers are routinely used. Also is it true that the number of pupils will soon rise to 1,300 or there abouts up from 1,000 a mere 3-4 years ago. Will there be any progress on the porposed new pitches/carpark project that was put forward a couple of years ago?0
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The school has put a cap of 250 pupils coming in at 1st year and it's been over subscribed for this coming September and some pupils have been refused places. The school is capping the total number of pupils at 1300 and will only take in the same number that leaves. The attic/dormitory was converted into an art room and a smaller room so more classrooms were created.
It is a past pupil that's running the juice bar as his own business and paying something to the school as far as I'm aware of and the canteen was upgraded and making a profit for the school.
I think the car park plans were refused planning permission.0 -
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I found the principal to be very nice, but strict, when he was principal when I was finishing school in Tramore. I found him to have the interests of the school at heart, but tough on unruly students. I don't recall any teaching staff expressing issues with him but maybe I just didn't notice.
It seems he made a solid investment in the school for the pupils and not for himself. I'd have to pat him on the back for making the school a more comfortable learning environment and improving the school overall. It seems he over-spent, but I assume this must have been at the backing by others in the school (surely he wasn't able or allowed go on a solo run?).
I would like to see both sides of the story. I dislike the way the story broke and the way some seem to be out "to get him" (it appears like this) in the school. I'd be surprised if he was the type of guy who wouldn't listen to staff (or the previous board not listening to the staff either) that they had to go and break the story and make sure all the light was on him.
Who knows what the full story is? Will we ever find out? I'd prefer to here both sides, and it looks like the principal doesn't wish to throw any more mud at the school and further erode more of its reputation hence why he wont comment.0 -
I know that in my days in Waterpark, lunchtime meant a sprint down to the Lombard for a battered sausage meal, or maybe Dominos if I had the chance to ring from the toilet before lunch. It sounds as if the principal is getting a real raw deal here. What he has spent the money on seems to be what would make the school a more pleasant environment to learn in. Of course I can see why the teachers are disgruntled after seeing this money spent knowing that their own working conditions are deteriorating but as it's been said, there's a time and a place to raise these issues and going to the local rag isn't that place...
I sure wouldn't want to be a principal!0 -
There have been a number of break-ins/attempted break-ins in the school, 3 in one month alone so security/cameras were updated and increased. The school is also home to elderly brothers who are entitled to feel secure in their home yet going on the article in last week's newspaper readers were led to believe the teachers were being spied on.0
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There have been a number of break-ins/attempted break-ins in the school, 3 in one month alone so security/cameras were updated and increased. The school is also home to elderly brothers who are entitled to feel secure in their home yet going on the article in last week's newspaper readers were led to believe the teachers were being spied on.
Have they not gone ahead with building a new home for the brothers down by the tennis courts? Would increase their quality of life and free up space in the school.0 -
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The school is also home to elderly brothers who are entitled to feel secure in their home yet going on the article in last week's newspaper readers were led to believe the teachers were being spied on.
They have to be in the school to spy on them, my lad had four free class's yesterday and he is doing his leaving?0 -
I would have an issue in my workplace if there was a camera in my staffroom. While there is a case to made for staffrooms with lockers etc, I think it is unacceptable to have it in a room where people take their break!
There is also the dissolving of the Board of Management so there has to be an issue. I know from my time in school, the Board was made up of teacher reps, parent reps and reps from the local community. But if as the paper suggests, the DLS trust is asking the Minister to dissolve the Board, then it must be serious!0 -
I think it was a very low act for that minority group of teachers to go to the local newspaper about it. I wonder how they'd like it if a number of parents contacted the media with a list of teachers that are regularly on the doss and not teaching their classes. The more I think about it the more tempted I am to do just that.
One thing I find very unprofessional and something that's been going on for a few months if not longer is the couple of teachers that bitch to their classes about how the school is run. I think it's time I contacted the principal with their names.
Jesus, are you actually for real?!?! You clearly have no idea what's going on.
He bought an aquariam and re-did an unused entrance for 80k euro, he bought more plasma tvs than you'd see in Harvery Norman and they display nothing of any real significance. One might be decent maybe...
This is not some lazy teachers voicing their outrage over being made to work, if you honestly think it is then you need to seriously think twice. There was a school-wide inspection a couple of months ago which highlighted MASSIVE problems within the school regarding the prinicpal and his dealings with staff.
There are so many things which you seem to be missing, I hope to God most other people know better. This goes wayyyy beyond lazy teachers.
Also, I used to come home and tell my mum that I had loads of free classes and I got almost all of my homework done too... I didn't. Just saying.0 -
Here lads, listen. I know from a friend who is very close to the whole thing exactly what is going on... This is not about lazy teachers trying to assasinate his character as someone put it.
He took complete control of the budget and made ludacrous decisions which brought the budget from many thousands in the black to 500k in the red. All of this while still not buying the children you're all banging on about new desks fro Christs sake!
Un-qualified subs are used regularly to teach your children, as well as teachers who do not teach the subject they're being made to. The recruitment of qualified teachers does not reflect the subjects which require the new staff, allowing for both over-timetabling and under-timetabling simultaneously.
The Board of Management is being dissolved for Christ's sake! There is a complete breakdown between the principal and the people he is meant to be managing. This never nearly happened in how many years the Brother's were in charge?
If you plan on writing your letters to Gearóid, maybe you should think about putting some of that into them as well. The review will make for interesting reading for many people who really have no idea what's actually going on up there!0 -
Up Mount Sion! We hadn't a gant.0
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abouttobebanned wrote: »Up Mount Sion! We hadn't a gant.
I went there and have the scars to prove it.0 -
Good old primary school desks, holes in every ceiling and no PE :pac:wellboytoo wrote: »I went there and have the scars to prove it.0 -
At least all this talk about the inadequacies of the school and its facilities might mean that it won't be over-subscribed over the next few years!0
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Going by the newspaper reports the and comments in this thread the whole school evaluation was highly critical of the school, does anyone know when was the last evaluation was carried out? How does it compare to this one? Is the school getting better or worse under the new principle? Similarly, what standard was the building and equipment kept at by his predecessor.
In the news and star article one of the bits that I found interesting was where they say he spent 1 million doing up the school €500,000 of which is still outstanding. If he is only in there a few years and already has half the money paid back then whats the big deal? I did a quick google and found this http://www.asti.ie/?id=347 it says schools get a per capita grant of €345, multiply that by 1300 students and you get €450,000. With that sort of money they'll pay off the debt in a year or two.0 -
At least all this talk about the inadequacies of the school and its facilities might mean that it won't be over-subscribed over the next few years!
What inadequacies does it have exactly? It sounds like it has amazing facilities. In my school we didnt even have enough seats for everybody and non of the desks were screwed into the frames, often just thrown around in the corner like a wood pile.0 -
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I don't go to DLS hence why I said all this talk of inadequacies. The lack of new desks would be a minor inadequacy but all the talk of many free classes is not exactly a good selling point and would be considered a major inadequacy of a school imo. I struggle to remember having a free class or my teacher leaving us in the class to work on our own. Anyone I've talked to of my age (33) says the same. Maybe things have just really gone down hill in recent years. I couldn't really care too much if my kids' school had plasma screens etc. as long as it wasn't too shabby and the teachers were qualified to teach the subjects that they were allocated to and they turned up unless there was a really good reason. All the talk to the contrary relating to DLS might put some people off sending their kids there. My comment was slightly tongue in cheek of course but it's certainly not good publicity.0
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A few comments:
1. Is the €500k dept a cumulative debt over nemerous refurb/building projects in the last few years or as a result of one large project?
2. How were the projects procured, to run up €500k of debt on say 3-4 projects costing in the region of €2,500,000 i.e. over run of 20% would suggest a very poor/sloppy/loose approach to tendering and subsequent project management.
3. What are the options for financing this debt, is there scope to get loans from government/department of education, can a secondary school borrow on the strength of its assets? Will the school as it has done in the past ask families of students to make voluntary contributions?
4. Surely plasma tv's in each class, aquariums, leather couches in common areas etc should come second place when basics such as desks are falling apart.
5. The draconian measures being taken to dissolve the board of management of the school and appoint a manager would surely not be taken lightly and suggests there is something more than just a small cohort of disguntled teachers.
6. The lavish expenditure on plasma tv's etc seems to have coincided with the start of the recession, one would wonder how it was allowed to continue up to last year given the amount of 'cut-backs/austerity' there has been in every government department, does the department of education just favour/have a soft spot for large schools in the SE of ireland.
7. The alleged use of sub teachers for subjects in which they are not qualified surely cannot be correct?
8. Who is ultimatley responsible for school management, the principal, board of management or a combination of both?
9. Can a school go into administration/receivership/liquidation?0 -
A few comments:
1. Is the €500k dept a cumulative debt over nemerous refurb/building projects in the last few years or as a result of one large project?
Cumulative of work on the staff room, cafeteria, TV's, new entrance/aquarium etc.
2. How were the projects procured, to run up €500k of debt on say 3-4 projects costing in the region of €2,500,000 i.e. over run of 20% would suggest a very poor/sloppy/loose approach to tendering and subsequent project management.
Not sure.
3. What are the options for financing this debt, is there scope to get loans from government/department of education, can a secondary school borrow on the strength of its assets? Will the school as it has done in the past ask families of students to make voluntary contributions?
Have already taken out a loan to help cover costs. Believe it was taken out by the Trusties.
4. Surely plasma tv's in each class, aquariums, leather couches in common areas etc should come second place when basics such as desks are falling apart.
Indeed...
5. The draconian measures being taken to dissolve the board of management of the school and appoint a manager would surely not be taken lightly and suggests there is something more than just a small cohort of disguntled teachers.
The main point to be made I think. This just confirms the major issues within the management structure.
6. The lavish expenditure on plasma tv's etc seems to have coincided with the start of the recession, one would wonder how it was allowed to continue up to last year given the amount of 'cut-backs/austerity' there has been in every government department, does the department of education just favour/have a soft spot for large schools in the SE of ireland.
They have no input into how the school spends its budget seemingly.
7. The alleged use of sub teachers for subjects in which they are not qualified surely cannot be correct?
Subs don't actually teach in DLS really, they often just take free classes and try to keep order while the students do their homework.
8. Who is ultimatley responsible for school management, the principal, board of management or a combination of both?
It's meant to be both but this is where the serious issues have arisen. Between the principal, vice-principals and the BM, there have been big problems seemingly.
9. Can a school go into administration/receivership/liquidation?
I don't think so. How could you proceed to liquidate the assets of a school? Sell off the desks? haha
Answers in red0 -
Whatsisname wrote: »I'm in 6th year in there atm, its a bit of a joke, the teachers got a choice of a plasma screen tv or an interactive whiteboard at the start of 5th year, while the library and majority of classes are still full of 1980's desks, maybe even older than that.
The Department of Education has been grant-aiding schools for a number of years to install ICT infrastructure. This funding must be channelled by the school towards computers, networking, and audio-visual equipment. The school doesn't have the option of spending the money on furniture.0 -
Mmm yeah I did wonder why there was such a fuss about cameras in the staff room when they are all over the rest of the school anyway. My son also has about 2 or 3 lessons free a day and one teacher is hardly ever there so let's hope if the principal is trying to sort this out that he is left to do it. One of the teachers told his class that a 500 grand deficit is not unusual for a school of that size and it is being blown out of all proportion. I wonder what the situation was before O'Brien took over - would be interesting to know.
Education Act 1998 -
"18.—(1) Except in the case of a school established or maintained by a vocational education committee, a board shall keep all proper and usual accounts and records of all monies received by it or expenditure of such monies incurred by it and shall ensure that in each year all such accounts are properly audited or certified in accordance with best accounting practice.
(2) Accounts kept in pursuance of this section shall be made available by the school concerned for inspection by the Minister and by parents of students in the school, in so far as those accounts relate to monies provided in accordance with section 12 ."
Basically any parent can inspect the accounts of a school their child is attending. The section doesn't limit their inspection to any particular year.0 -
A few comments:
3. What are the options for financing this debt, is there scope to get loans from government/department of education, can a secondary school borrow on the strength of its assets? Will the school as it has done in the past ask families of students to make voluntary contributions?
The Department of Education sometimes gives emergency funding to schools where there is a short-term cashflow problem.
The assets of most schools are vested in their trustees (patron). In this case that is Le Cheile. In order to borrow money a board of management would normally require the written permission of their patron and any security relating to assets has to be authorised by the patron as well.0 -
A few comments:
5. The draconian measures being taken to dissolve the board of management of the school and appoint a manager would surely not be taken lightly and suggests there is something more than just a small cohort of disguntled teachers.
6. The lavish expenditure on plasma tv's etc seems to have coincided with the start of the recession, one would wonder how it was allowed to continue up to last year given the amount of 'cut-backs/austerity' there has been in every government department, does the department of education just favour/have a soft spot for large schools in the SE of ireland.
8. Who is ultimatley responsible for school management, the principal, board of management or a combination of both?
9. Can a school go into administration/receivership/liquidation?
in relation to point:
5. The dissolution of the board is a most unusual step and was probably prompted by a financial audit by the Dept. of Education which was supposed to have occurred last autumn. This in turn prompted the Whole School Evaluation (WSE). This would have little to do with the teachers.
The normal composition of a board:
The Principal who acts as secretary of the board.
One teacher.
Two community reps.
Two patron reps.
Two parent reps.
My understanding is that one parent rep was also a teacher, which is not allowed. From what I have heard, both the patron and the board came in for harsh criticism during the WSE.
6. The grant aid for ICT infrastructure has been given to all schools (primary and post-primary) over the last number of years.
8. The board of management is ultimately responsible for the management of a school on behalf of the patron.
9. A Board of Management is a body corporate, in the same way as a company, and has the right to sue and be sued. However the ultimate borrower (or debtor) is the patron and the liquidation of the school might ultimately lead to their liability for its debts. In addition a board of management member may be liable (partly or wholly) if they have not acted "in good faith". Examples of this might include where a board member had commercial interests which were in conflict with the best interests of the school!0 -
Going by the newspaper reports the and comments in this thread the whole school evaluation was highly critical of the school, does anyone know when was the last evaluation was carried out?
In the news and star article one of the bits that I found interesting was where they say he spent 1 million doing up the school €500,000 of which is still outstanding. If he is only in there a few years and already has half the money paid back then whats the big deal? I did a quick google and found this http://www.asti.ie/?id=347 it says schools get a per capita grant of €345, multiply that by 1300 students and you get €450,000. With that sort of money they'll pay off the debt in a year or two.
Another post described how the school had extended its classroom hours. It shortened the lunch break and extended the last class on some days to a 3.50 finish. Those changes were brought in under Brother Damien in the year before G O'B was appointed and, as far as I am aware, were as a result of the last WSE. That was a huge improvement for the school as it stopped kids wandering aimlessly around town for almost an hour and a half at lunchtime.
Are you serious? You think that any school can simply afford to pay down its debts out of capitation monies? What about light, heat, power, cleaning, repairs, insurance, security, postage, stationery, water charges, bin charges, phone, and all the other day-to-day expenditure that a school incurs? The rate of capitation for 2012 is actually €317 and this is then subjected to a number of deductions.0 -
Another post described how the school had extended its classroom hours. It shortened the lunch break and extended the last class on some days to a 3.50 finish. Those changes were brought in under Brother Damien in the year before G O'B was appointed and, as far as I am aware, were as a result of the last WSE. That was a huge improvement for the school as it stopped kids wandering aimlessly around town for almost an hour and a half at lunchtime.
Are you serious? You think that any school can simply afford to pay down its debts out of capitation monies? What about light, heat, power, cleaning, repairs, insurance, security, postage, stationery, water charges, bin charges, phone, and all the other day-to-day expenditure that a school incurs? The rate of capitation for 2012 is actually €317 and this is then subjected to a number of deductions.
You know a bit about the previous evaluation ( it was critical of the class hours), how did it compare to the most recent evaluation? Did the school get a better or worse result this time around?
If the money to pay off the other €500,000 didn't come from the capitation grant, where has the money come? Has this other source dried up?
When I read the article I though that big deal out of a normal business practice, i.e. borrow money on future income to fix infrastructure. If capitation grant has been reduced like you say it was austerity/budget cuts that suppered that plan. If that is the case, I bet the dept of education will come to the rescue. 2 FG TDs and especially 1 Labour TD in Waterford wouldn't want it thrown in their face come next election.0 -
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You know a bit about the previous evaluation ( it was critical of the class hours), how did it compare to the most recent evaluation? Did the school get a better or worse result this time around?
If the money to pay off the other €500,000 didn't come from the capitation grant, where has the money come? Has this other source dried up?
When I read the article I though that big deal out of a normal business practice, i.e. borrow money on future income to fix infrastructure. If capitation grant has been reduced like you say it was austerity/budget cuts that suppered that plan. If that is the case, I bet the dept of education will come to the rescue. 2 FG TDs and especially 1 Labour TD in Waterford wouldn't want it thrown in their face come next election.
I am afraid that is all I know about the previous WSE. I mentioned it in order to give some indication of when the last one took place. The changed hours were implemented, as far as I remember in September 2006. Inspection reports were only published for inspections carried out after 1 January 2006.
I would think that the dissolution of the board would indicate a much poorer set of findings this time out. Whether this was carried out under S.17 (at the Minister's request) or under S.16 (at the patron's request) does not seem to be public knowledge. I think that taking such a serious step (and the subsequent leaks to the media) at a time of the year when young adults are preparing for exams is disgraceful and both Minister and Patron should be ashamed.
The dissolution of the board now leaves two groups, teachers and parents, without representation in the management of the school for at least the next six months.
With regard to the €500,000 figure that has already been paid off, I am not sure whether this figure is correct or not. Like I said previously, it is a statutory entitlement of each parent to inspect the accounts of any school that their child attends. If the figure of €1 million spent and €500,000 owing is correct, then the first presumption would be that the €500,000 difference was funded by the Dept. of Education through grants. The Dept. has many different capital funding schemes in place. Among them over the last number of years have been Water Conservation Grants, Insulation Grants, Emergency Work Grants, Summer Works Schemes (which fund projects which can be completed in their entirety during the summer holidays) and other capital grants.
Normally if the Dept. funds a specific project and there is a balance left to be funded they will seek proof or assurances from the school as to how that deficit is to be funded by local contributions. As far as I am aware, De La Salle does not do any specific fund-raising for the school itself.
Most schools are now caught in a trap between rising costs (particularly energy and insurance) against a falling income. The real victims in this will be the kids.
In reality a school should not be borrowing unless it is for a major capital project and it has a solid plan of action to repay such borrowing. In the present climate the situation facing DLS is simply an exaggeration of the mini-crises facing innumerable schools (both primary and post-primary) throughout the country. It would be sensible for parents to take an active interest in the financial health of their children's schools as the reality of austerity bites0
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