Valid driving licence seized..on me

fortuneteller

I mislaid my full irish driving licence a few months back..Because now one must carry one at all times i went and paid for a duplicate..i.e same address, details ect.
I subsequently found my orignal and had it in my briefcase with the duplicate.
Last night at a garda checkpoint a garda told me i was commiting an offence and he was being kind to me by siezing my orignal copy and would return it to its source,but i may have to make a statement in the future:eek:

I just contacted garda traffic HQ in dublin castle and they told me.
My licence if valid and posessed the correct details, was a legal document and the garda had no right to seize it...

He also said it is not an offence to have a valid duplicate, but that i should file it away incase i lost the other......

Can anyone clear this one up for me.....Can i demand my licence back ?

Thanks in advance

Zambia

So your question is . . . Is it illegal to hold two driving licences and if so what law states you cannot?

krd

I think the garda may have been confusing a driving license with a passport.

As far as I am aware, it's illegal to be in possession of two passports.

PCPhoto

all I want to say is ..... you cant and shouldn't "demand" anything from the Gardai, go in .... talk to them explain the situation and ask what their opinions are and ask them to explain what the situation is.

if there is an error on their behalf, accept the apology and walk away - if they are correct accept the consequences and walk away.

Zambia

Actually I have a question when you loose your licence do you have to hand back in the physical licence?

Our man in Havana

As far as I am aware, it's illegal to be in possession of two passports.

No it's not.

MagicSean

I'm pretty sure you have to return the original to the tax office if you find it because it is no longer valid. Isn't there something on the application form about this?

fortuneteller

How can it not be valid...??
And under which power has a garda the right to seize a legal/valid document That i paid for????None according to the sargent in charge in traffic HQ..

Unless he's wrong......

MagicSean

A garda can seize a document for the purpose of examining its validity.

Here's a link for you

http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Motor-Tax/Driving_Licences/Duplicate_driving_licence_Learners_Permit/

Please note if your original licence is found after obtaining a duplicate licence, the original licence must be surrendered to your nearest Motor Taxation Office as the duplicate renders the original licence invalid. It is illegal to hold two licences at the same time.

Zambia

This is where I was going with the handing in question.

Any driver accumulating 12 penalty points within any given three-year period will be automatically disqualified from driving for six months. The driver is required to surrender his/her licence to the appropriate licensing authority within 14 days of receiving notification of the disqualification. It is an offence not to surrender a licence. It is also an offence to drive while disqualified.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/DrivingLicences/pages/fulldrivinglicence.aspx

So if you could have two licences it would circumvent this.

However what is the offence for holding two licences?

Our man in Havana

So if you could have two licences it would circumvent this.

It would only work on the most naive of Gardaí.

Any driver accumulating 12 penalty points within any given three-year period will be automatically disqualified from driving for six months.

I am surprised that someone has not challenged this in the courts yet.

fortuneteller

If gardai currently have no power to seize the licence of a disqualified driver......How can he seize my licence,even if its not valid, and a duplicate has been issued.....

MagicSean

fortuneteller wrote: »

If gardai currently have no power to seize the licence of a disqualified driver......How can he seize my licence,even if its not valid, and a duplicate has been issued.....

I don't see how the issues are related. A disqualified drivers licence is still a valid document it's just no longer valid as a licence to drive.

fortuneteller

i rest my case..:o

MagicSean

fortuneteller wrote: »

i rest my case..:o

Better luck next time.

BrianD

MagicSean wrote: »

A garda can seize a document for the purpose of examining its validity.

Here's a link for you

http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Motor-Tax/Driving_Licences/Duplicate_driving_licence_Learners_Permit/

Going by that verbatim the OP has done nothing wrong. The duplicate invalidates the original so he is only in possession of one licence. It's not as if he has a completely separate licence in his own name.

Re the passport - it is legal to have two passports. This is for people who may not want to have a travel history of visits to certain countries when they also visit others e.g middle eastern countries.

Our man in Havana

Multiple citizenships come to mind also.

Condatis

krd wrote: »

As far as I am aware, it's illegal to be in possession of two passports.

Not so: I have had two valid (Irish) passports at the same time – properly held.

If you travel to certain countries and your passport has visa stamps for countries with which the State you are about to visit has political difficulties you can be issued with a 'clean' passport.

Otherwise your arrival at an immigration desk can cause problems.

NB: I am entitled also to hold a UK passport.

Victor

fortuneteller wrote: »

If gardai currently have no power to seize the licence of a disqualified driver......How can he seize my licence,even if its not valid, and a duplicate has been issued.....

You still have a driving licence? Yes?

I can't see a good reason to have two of them.

MagicSean wrote: »

I don't see how the issues are related. A disqualified drivers licence is still a valid document it's just no longer valid as a licence to drive.

>.<

Victor

krd wrote: »

As far as I am aware, it's illegal to be in possession of two passports.

Our man in Havana wrote: »

No it's not.

Whatever about different types of passport, e.g. someone having an Irish and/or a British passport and/or a diplomatic passport, I think it would be problematic for people to have multiple copies of the same passport.

If it is legal to have two copies of the same passport, why do the passport demand the return of the old one and refuse to return it unless they deface it (by cropping off the corners)?

Our man in Havana

It is not the same passport as such. They have different numbers. The PO routinely issue second passports to those that need them for legitimate reasons as explained earlier.

fortuneteller

In my job, i need to have a driving licence 24/7 for id to enter england and id also in europe....As i travel by road for a living, i dont see why i cant have a duplicate licence ..provided all details match..Anyone can misplace a licence...ie stolen wallet..ect
Does that mean i have to be arrested in belgium because im not allowed to have back up in case of loss on the road........

Ill be getting another one tomorrow.......simple as..i need it..and im doing nothing wrong...

P.S.I'LLbe a little more careful this time and keep them seperate!

BornToKill

fortuneteller wrote: »

In my job, i need to have a driving licence 24/7 for id to enter england and id also in europe....As i travel by road for a living, i dont see why i cant have a duplicate licence ..provided all details match..Anyone can misplace a licence...ie stolen wallet..ect
Does that mean i have to be arrested in belgium because im not allowed to have back up in case of loss on the road........

Ill be getting another one tomorrow.......simple as..i need it..and im doing nothing wrong...

P.S.I'LLbe a little more careful this time and keep them seperate!

Well, as you're permitted to apply for a duplicate licence on the loss, destruction or theft of the original I presume that in applying for a duplicate in the circumstances you describe you will be making a false statement to the Gardaí which is itself an offence.

This last post of yours doesn't accord well with your original post. Looks like you deliberated wanted to have two licences all along.

MagicSean

fortuneteller wrote: »

In my job, i need to have a driving licence 24/7 for id to enter england and id also in europe....As i travel by road for a living, i dont see why i cant have a duplicate licence ..provided all details match..Anyone can misplace a licence...ie stolen wallet..ect
Does that mean i have to be arrested in belgium because im not allowed to have back up in case of loss on the road........

Ill be getting another one tomorrow.......simple as..i need it..and im doing nothing wrong...

P.S.I'LLbe a little more careful this time and keep them seperate!

In order to get one you have to sign a declaration to the effect that your other one was lost. So you will have to commit a crime to get another one.

Procrastastudy

fortuneteller wrote: »

In my job, i need to have a driving licence 24/7 for id to enter england and id also in europe....As i travel by road for a living, i don't see why i cant have a duplicate licence ..provided all details match..Anyone can misplace a licence...ie stolen wallet..ect
Does that mean i have to be arrested in belgium because im not allowed to have back up in case of loss on the road........

Ill be getting another one tomorrow.......simple as..i need it..and im doing nothing wrong...

P.S.I'LLbe a little more careful this time and keep them separate!

Why not keep your licence and passport separate?

Won't the licences have different numbers on them? You've already been found out once and the Gardai let you off would you not take that as warning?

Isn't the OP opening himself up to all sorts of "fun" if he's using the original (and therefore invalidated) licence if stopped, or used for ID at borders?

Condatis

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about different types of passport, e.g. someone having an Irish and/or a British passport and/or a diplomatic passport, I think it would be problematic for people to have multiple copies of the same passport.

If it is legal to have two copies of the same passport, why do the passport demand the return of the old one and refuse to return it unless they deface it (by cropping off the corners)?

In what manner would it be problematic? As I pointed out above having two valid Irish passports I would use them for travel to different countries – for the reason stated.

The Passport Office do not demand the return of expired passports to effect renewal – it does however make the renewal process easier.

The cropping of passports relates to expired passports – this discussion is about valid passports.

fortuneteller

I lost my orignal licence, and only found it a good while after i got the copy... no intent on my part to decieve anyone....I use the spare if i cant locate the other...only...its like a spare key for me nothing else.
i'm hopping between truck/car/taxi all the time, it's hard to remember everything...all the time..

Thank's to all.

MagicSean

fortuneteller wrote: »

I lost my orignal licence, and only found it a good while after i got the copy... no intent on my part to decieve anyone....I use the spare if i cant locate the other...only...its like a spare key for me nothing else.
i'm hopping between truck/car/taxi all the time, it's hard to remember everything...all the time..

Thank's to all.

I wasn't referring to your last duplicate, i was referring to your claim that you will get a second one again, tomorrow.

coylemj

For those who have difficulty accepting the principle, you can have two valid Irish passports. The poster above choose to couch the explanation in vague/diplomatic terms, perhaps he works for Foreign Affairs!

If you arrive in an Arab country with Israeli entry and exit stamps in your passport you will typically encounter open hostility and serious delays. To get around those potential difficulties, the Department of Foreign Affairs is prepared to issue a second passport to people who have to travel to countries in the Middle East, including Israel, the plan being that you would use one passport when traveling to Arab countries and the other to enter Israel.

dudara

I held two valid passports for a short period of time. I required a new passport, but couldn't surrender my old one as I needed it for continued travel. The Passport Office issued with new passport, with an overlap period of about a month. After that month, the old passport expired and I continued with the new one.

Technically, you don't own your passport, as it remains the property of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. There probably is a similar point for diving licenses.

Kevin3

fortuneteller wrote: »

If gardai currently have no power to seize the licence of a disqualified driver......How can he seize my licence,even if its not valid, and a duplicate has been issued.....

A garda can seize a disqualified drivers driving licence under Section 60 of the Road Traffic Act 2010:

60.— (1) A member of the Garda Síochána may seize a driving licence or learner permit or a document which purports to be a driving licence or learner permit produced to him or her under section 40 of the Principal Act or section 61 of this Act, where the member has reasonable grounds for believing that—

(a) the holder of the licence or permit has been disqualified for holding a driving licence, or

(b) the driving licence or permit has been fraudulently obtained, is forged or altered or purports to be, but is not, a driving licence or permit.

(2) A member of the Garda Síochána who has seized a licence or permit under subsection (1) may make a copy of it and—

(a) in the case of an Irish driving licence or learner permit, return it to the licensing authority concerned,

(b) in the case of a foreign licence, give or send it—

(i) where the holder of the licence is resident in the State, to the licensing authority where the holder is resident, or

(ii) in any other case, to the issuing authority where the licence is seized or, if the member considers it appropriate, to another licensing authority at the request of the holder,

(c) where the licence or permit is as referred to in subsection (1)(b), upon the conclusion of any proceedings have it destroyed.

A second passport can be issued with 'sufficient reason' as outlined under Section 12 of the Passport Act 2008:

2) The Minister may refuse to issue a passport to a person if—

(a) the application for the issue of a passport to the person does not comply with section 6 , or

(b) the person holds a valid passport and there is no sufficient reason, in the opinion of the Minister, to issue another passport to him or her.

Procrastastudy

Not quite sure how this has become about passports as I think that was cleared up pretty quickly that you can have two. Still not sure why the OP doesn't do this rather than lie to obtain two drivers licences. Don't licences have different numbers?

Our man in Havana

Same driver number. Different red serial number.

hession.law

If a guard takes something belonging to you, in the course of the duty but they have no right to do so, does this amount to a theft?

Condatis

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Not quite sure how this has become about passports as I think that was cleared up pretty quickly that you can have two. Still not sure why the OP doesn't do this rather than lie to obtain two drivers licences. Don't licences have different numbers?

Each licence has two numbers. One number relates to the driver and other is a file number – this causes constant confusion.

Procrastastudy

I'm assuming the file number isn't easily/normally checked by the Gardai or UK police?

MagicSean

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

I'm assuming the file number isn't easily/normally checked by the Gardai or UK police?

It is as easily checked as a registration number.

Ash.J.Williams

Zambia wrote: »

Actually I have a question when you loose your licence do you have to hand back in the physical licence?

how?

BornToKill

I think that's 'lose' through an accumulation of penalty points rather than physically lost.

Unless you're a Native American in which case 'how' to you too.

theAwakening

if driver previously signed the d.800 form for a duplicate, which contained a declaration to the effect that, if original licence is found it must be surrendered, it is invalid, and that it's illegal to have 2 licence...

..it may come within the remit of a 'false instrument' (?), which provides a power of seizure to AGS...

Our man in Havana

Indeed it would.