Eng-er-land Euro2012 squad

Ormus · 16-05-2012 10:47pm

G.K. wrote: »

Holding his own? Britton has been a standout performer...

If the options were there I'd choose the younger head usually, but there aren't here. Britton is England's most capable DM who plays in the top flight. just my opinion, of course, but nothing has yet come to me to suggest otherwise.

I don't agree and don't see any point in going on with this.

Nice little player but not international class in my opinion.

England's best DM in your opinion.

C'est la vie.

Augmerson · 16-05-2012 10:49pm

Off topic but England's new kit is mank. I much preferred when the crest and other on-shirt things were in blue.

HazDanz · 16-05-2012 10:52pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Off topic but England's new kit is mank. I much preferred when the crest and other on-shirt things were in blue.

It looks like a dish cloth. Rank.

EDIT: On topic... How far will that squad get England in the championship? I think they will be lucky to get out of the group stages.

G.K. · 16-05-2012 10:53pm

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

It would be a huge, huge step up for Britton at this stage. Not to say he wouldn't make it but the difference between mid-table Premier League and even the top four is huge. Milner, Henderson, Adam are but three that have looked superb at lower clubs but found that they aren't as effective in a side that requires that bit more quality.

Those 3 are all different, and Britton's different to them.

Milner has been very effective at City when he has actually been played. He was instrumental in the 6-1.

Henderson doesn't have the mentality it seems. Nothing to do with his quality, which I think he has.

Adam has no quality whatsoever except holywood passes (A bit harsh probably). He can't defend at all, requiring 2 DM's (Or 1 if they are as good as Lucas) to be played to specifically cater for his failings.

It's only mentality that could be a trouble for Britton but the quality is clearly there.

That said, I do see where you are coming from, and it's often a very valid point. But you can't beat people with that stick until you try it IMO (I've mixed up two idioms here I think :pac:). There are exceptions to every rule.

PhlegmyMoses · 16-05-2012 10:58pm

I got England in the work sweepstake. Come on Eng-er land!

UnitedIrishman · 16-05-2012 10:59pm

G.K. wrote: »

Those 3 are all different, and Britton's different to them.

Milner has been very effective at City when he has actually been played. He was instrumental in the 6-1.

Henderson doesn't have the mentality it seems. Nothing to do with his quality, which I think he has.

Adam has no quality whatsoever except holywood passes (A bit harsh probably). He can't defend at all, requiring 2 DM's (Or 1 if they are as good as Lucas) to be played to specifically cater for his failings.

It's only mentality that could be a trouble for Britton but the quality is clearly there.

That said, I do see where you are coming from, and it's often a very valid point. But you can't beat people with that stick until you try it IMO (I've mixed up two idioms here I think :pac:). There are exceptions to every rule.

I agree with you to an extent, and I do think he should have taken chances with a couple of selections outside the X1 he has in his head and get them in before the tournament for a couple of weeks to see what they could add to the squad. I mean realistically there's 4-5 lads that won't get anywhere near the pitch anyways.

PhlegmyMoses · 16-05-2012 10:59pm

We've also never seen Britton in a system other than Swansea's very specific style. Not sure it would work with England.

Corholio · 16-05-2012 11:08pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

21 year old striker drifts in and out of games. I am disappoint.

Seriously though, his game has grown so much in the last two years that if he adds goals he will be one of the best strikers in the PL. He is quick, holds it up well, wins headers, runs the channels and works his socks off and his first touch is good and getting better. Also links play up well.

He has improved definitely, but one of the best strikers in the league I genuinely don't think he'll ever be. He's drifted in and out of being totally ineffective in quite a few games i've watched, with Hernandez coming on for him. If he was 17 i'd say his age would be a factor but he'd want to improve a hell of a lot to be anywhere near one of the best strikers in the league.

SirDelboy18 · 16-05-2012 11:12pm

Turns out Carrick is out of his own volition.

pistolpetes11 · 16-05-2012 11:14pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Turns out Carrick is out of his own volition.

Retired months ago and asked the FA to keep it quite , only 15 starts in 11 years and was fed up being a bit part player

Jimmy Iovine · 16-05-2012 11:19pm

pistolpetes11 wrote: »

Retired months ago and asked the FA to keep it quite , only 15 starts in 11 years and was fed up being a bit part player

Can't blame him. At his age no one wants to be traipsing around Europe sitting on the bench when he could be at home with his family.

Tech3 · 17-05-2012 12:08am

...............Hart.............
Johnson Cahill Terry Cole
..............Parker...........
.......Milner Gerard Barry..
...............Welbeck........
..............Defoe............

I think this is the best they have got. I would rotate Gerard/Lampard. Lets not forget Barry has played left midfield for Villa and Milner can play on the right if the full backs dont push forward.

I think the biggest shock today was not asking the best midfielder in England to come back out of retirement!

Jax Teller · 17-05-2012 12:17am

Tech3 wrote: »

...............Hart.............
Johnson Cahill Terry Cole
..............Parker...........
.......Milner Gerard Barry..
...............Welbeck........
..............Defoe............

I think this is the best they have got. I would rotate Gerard/Lampard. Lets not forget Barry has played left midfield for Villa and Milner can play on the right if the full backs dont push forward.

I think the biggest shock today was not asking the best midfielder in England to come back out of retirement!

I reckon Young will definitely play on Lw

Fizman · 17-05-2012 12:18am

Tech3 wrote: »

...............Hart.............
Johnson Cahill Terry Cole
..............Parker...........
.......Milner Gerard Barry..
...............Welbeck........
..............Defoe............

I think this is the best they have got. I would rotate Gerard/Lampard. Lets not forget Barry has played left midfield for Villa and Milner can play on the right if the full backs dont push forward.

I think the biggest shock today was not asking the best midfielder in England to come back out of retirement!

That team is f**king woeful! I actually let out a little giggle to myself when I looked at it.

Pro. F · 17-05-2012 1:33am

Ormus wrote: »

You're under the misconception that because a player is tidy that means he is capable of playing international football. I have played with some nice tidy footballer, but they would have struggled with the pace, power and skill of the 4th division in Spain. Just because a player has a certain style does not mean he is a misunderstood English version of Xavi. Just because a guy plays in the Andrea Pirlo position does not mean he is as good as Andrea Pirlo.

If you are right about there being droves of superior footballer who the English public are too dim to notice, then you deserve a job as a Premiership manager.

You are under the misconception that Barry, Parker, Milner, Gerrard and Lampard are capable of playing international football as central midfielders. They are not. England has proven that those types of players are not capable in that position for as long as I've been watching football; and long before that too. Britton has shown that he is better than all of them this season in that position when playing in the same league.

You are also under the misconception that the International football is something completely alien to big league club football. It is not. Ability in big league club football is a very good indicator of ability in International football. For all the players who are good for their clubs and struggle internationally there are just as many players who struggle for their clubs but have impressed internationally. The level of football is similar.

There are not droves of players in England like Britton. Their youth coaching actively selects against skillful central midfielders.

Your quip about me deserving a job as a PL manager misses the point. The English system (graft over ability, position over possession) has been proven to be ineffective repeatedly over the last 60 years or more. We've seen these players - supposedly experienced, reliable and proven at international level - flounder in nearly every tournament they enter. What the establishment English coaches and FA are doing doesn't work, so yes there is no evidence in the slightest to suggest that their ideas are any more valid than the ones I'm putting forward. (I'm not claiming that I came up with these ideas btw, I've just paid attention to what the good football coaches have said.)

Ormus wrote: »

Yes, in the same sense that a lot of attacks are started by goalies. You miss the point. I get what you mean. Pirlo is a deep lying yet creative player. That does not mean he is attacking. He simply doesn't attack.

It's not in the same sense that attacks are started by goalies. Because although goalies are the ones who play the first ball, assuming the attack is passing based and not a long ball, they do not actually influence and shape the attack. Pirlo takes opposition players out of the game and makes space for his team mates, even though he plays deep. Stick him in a team like the English one and he will immediately improve their attacking ability. That sounds like being part of the attack to me.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Not sure about this Britton lark. He is a good player but not sure about him being international standard. Another good season at the top needed from him.

Are you not confident that whatever pair of Barry, Milner, Parker, Lampard and Gerrerd are played in the centre, they will be utterly shíte? What harm would it be to bring in a player who has a skill that they all lack and has outshone those players all year in that position and in the same league as them? The worst he could do would be to be utterly shíte, but that would be no worse than what is going to happen anyway.

Jigga · 17-05-2012 1:58am

Sky Bet had an interesting candidate for the squad

waltersskybet.png?psid=1

MagicMarker · 17-05-2012 8:25am

Tech3 wrote: »

...............Hart.............
Johnson Cahill Terry Cole
..............Parker...........
.......Milner Gerard Barry..
...............Welbeck........
..............Defoe............

Where's the width?

PhlegmyMoses · 17-05-2012 8:30am

Pro. F wrote: »

Are you not confident that whatever pair of Barry, Milner, Parker, Lampard and Gerrerd are played in the centre, they will be utterly shíte? What harm would it be to bring in a player who has a skill that they all lack and has outshone those players all year in that position and in the same league as them? The worst he could do would be to be utterly shíte, but that would be no worse than what is going to happen anyway.

I don't think that they'll play a pair. Probably be Gerrard, Lampard and Parker, if fit. Young and Walcott out wide. Welbeck, maybe Defoe, then Rooney up front.

Pro. F · 17-05-2012 9:03am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I don't think that they'll play a pair. Probably be Gerrard, Lampard and Parker, if fit. Young and Walcott out wide. Welbeck, maybe Defoe, then Rooney up front.

Yeah that is possible I suppose. But whatever trio could be played from that bunch I would still be very confident that they would be utterly shíte.

Beefy78 · 17-05-2012 9:41am

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

We've also never seen Britton in a system other than Swansea's very specific style. Not sure it would work with England.

I have. It wouldn't work, IMO.

Had Hodgson been manager for the last two years then maybe calls for the likes of Britton, Hooper, Holt and others would have been more justified. As it is the guy has been in for two weeks and three weeks to put a team together. This was never going to be a chance of experimenting.

I'd have still taken Rickie Lambert, of course.

Ormus · 17-05-2012 10:38am

Pro. F wrote: »

You are under the misconception that Barry, Parker, Milner, Gerrard and Lampard are capable of playing international football as central midfielders. They are not. England has proven that those types of players are not capable in that position for as long as I've been watching football; and long before that too. Britton has shown that he is better than all of them this season in that position when playing in the same league.

You are also under the misconception that the International football is something completely alien to big league club football. It is not. Ability in big league club football is a very good indicator of ability in International football. For all the players who are good for their clubs and struggle internationally there are just as many players who struggle for their clubs but have impressed internationally. The level of football is similar.

There are not droves of players in England like Britton. Their youth coaching actively selects against skillful central midfielders.

Your quip about me deserving a job as a PL manager misses the point. The English system (graft over ability, position over possession) has been proven to be ineffective repeatedly over the last 60 years or more. We've seen these players - supposedly experienced, reliable and proven at international level - flounder in nearly every tournament they enter. What the establishment English coaches and FA are doing doesn't work, so yes there is no evidence in the slightest to suggest that their ideas are any more valid than the ones I'm putting forward. (I'm not claiming that I came up with these ideas btw, I've just paid attention to what the good football coaches have said.)

It's not in the same sense that attacks are started by goalies. Because although goalies are the ones who play the first ball, assuming the attack is passing based and not a long ball, they do not actually influence and shape the attack. Pirlo takes opposition players out of the game and makes space for his team mates, even though he plays deep. Stick him in a team like the English one and he will immediately improve their attacking ability. That sounds like being part of the attack to me.

Are you not confident that whatever pair of Barry, Milner, Parker, Lampard and Gerrerd are played in the centre, they will be utterly shíte? What harm would it be to bring in a player who has a skill that they all lack and has outshone those players all year in that position and in the same league as them? The worst he could do would be to be utterly shíte, but that would be no worse than what is going to happen anyway.

He would be utterly shíte and out of his depth. England may be utterly shíte collectively anyway but I think its reasonable for the manager to select their best players just in case they can achieve something.

Barry, Parker, Milner, Gerrard and Lampard are the best midfielders England have who are fit and willing to go to the Euros. I'm not saying they're great players, because they're certainly not. But they're England's best.

I'm not sure what season you were watching, I saw Leon Britton do a solid job for a mid table team, while the England internationals scrapped it out for the league and champs league spots.

If Leon Britton became a better player, I would be all in favour of a player of his style being called up by England.

I agree with you that it would be good if coaching in England could emphasise skill over power for the future. But that doesn't mean that you shoe-horn inferior players into the international team because you want it to happen now. If someone like Wilshere comes along, who actually has the class to play at that level, then fine. Otherwise patience is required.

Deeper Blue · 18-05-2012 12:20am

He should've picked Anton Ferdinand for the laugh

Pro. F · 18-05-2012 1:42am

Ormus wrote: »

He would be utterly shíte and out of his depth. England may be utterly shíte collectively anyway but I think its reasonable for the manager to select their best players just in case they can achieve something.

Barry, Parker, Milner, Gerrard and Lampard are the best midfielders England have who are fit and willing to go to the Euros. I'm not saying they're great players, because they're certainly not. But they're England's best.

I'm not sure what season you were watching, I saw Leon Britton do a solid job for a mid table team, while the England internationals scrapped it out for the league and champs league spots.

If Leon Britton became a better player, I would be all in favour of a player of his style being called up by England.

I agree with you that it would be good if coaching in England could emphasise skill over power for the future. But that doesn't mean that you shoe-horn inferior players into the international team because you want it to happen now. If someone like Wilshere comes along, who actually has the class to play at that level, then fine. Otherwise patience is required.

Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Parker and Milner will be shown up to be utterly shíte and out of their depth imo. Britton has the skill that they all lack and so should be included imo. But we will never know about Britton, we can wait and see if I'm right about the rest.

Since you are keen on using league positions to justify player inclusions you should look at this: Liverpool finished a mighty five points ahead of Swansea. Gerrard had a horrible season with injuries and lack of form, 18 PL appearances to Britton's 35 and nothing like performances as good as Britton's. Gerrard is going as captain.

Where their respective teams finished in the league is a ridiculously vicarious way of choosing players anyway.

G.K. · 18-05-2012 7:51am

I'd disagree on Milner, but agree overall. I don't like him being used as a CM but he's a good guy to have in the squad.

Beefy78 · 18-05-2012 10:18am

Pro. F wrote: »

Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Parker and Milner will be shown up to be utterly shíte and out of their depth imo. Britton has the skill that they all lack and so should be included imo. But we will never know about Britton, we can wait and see if I'm right about the rest.

Since you are keen on using league positions to justify player inclusions you should look at this: Liverpool finished a mighty five points ahead of Swansea. Gerrard had a horrible season with injuries and lack of form, 18 PL appearances to Britton's 35 and nothing like performances as good as Britton's. Gerrard is going as captain.

Where their respective teams finished in the league is a ridiculously vicarious way of choosing players anyway.

Had Gerrard played 35 games then Liverpool would likely have finished above 8th.

I just think you're seriously overstating how good Britton is. He's a good, tidy player of the like that England (and Scotland, Wales and Ireland) produce too infrequently but he's not the second coming of Xavi. He's not even Swansea's best midfielder. I think Joe Allen is a better player than Britton. Gylfi Sigurðsson is certainly better. To be honest, if Mark Gower (a similar player with more strength and a much better range of passing) was two years younger then he'd be way above Britton in the pecking order.

I long for the day when England produce more players in the style of Britton and fewer in the style of Gerrard. But that doesn't mean that he should be dropped in now out of nowhere for this tournament.

G.K. · 18-05-2012 10:39am

England don't need the second coming of Xavi, which Britton would never purport to be anyway.

They need a defensive midfielder to keep the team ticking over who won't lose the ball under pressure. A Busquets if you will. That is Britton.

Also, when Swansea played United, they started with Gower, Sig and Allen. Their shape only returned when a slightly unfit Britton replaced Gower at half time, and Swansea had a much better second half. It's great that Gower has the passing range. But Britton has good passing ability too and he is a DM, which is the fundamental thing. Gower is not a DM. Allen and Sigurdsson are irrelevant because they aren't English. It's all well and good saying 'Britton isn't the best midfielder at Swansea'. Busquets isn't the best midfielder in Barcelona and most people would kill for him. Comparing Britton to Sig is ridiculous anyway.

But England need to keep posession and Britton more than anyone else will give them that.

Ormus · 18-05-2012 11:16am

Pro. F wrote: »

Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Parker and Milner will be shown up to be utterly shíte and out of their depth imo. Britton has the skill that they all lack and so should be included imo. But we will never know about Britton, we can wait and see if I'm right about the rest.

Since you are keen on using league positions to justify player inclusions you should look at this: Liverpool finished a mighty five points ahead of Swansea. Gerrard had a horrible season with injuries and lack of form, 18 PL appearances to Britton's 35 and nothing like performances as good as Britton's. Gerrard is going as captain.

Where their respective teams finished in the league is a ridiculously vicarious way of choosing players anyway.

I agree with you that Gerrard didn't get going this season but he is still a different league of a player to Leon Britton. Aside from being bigger, stronger and faster, he is also a better passer than him.

I never ever said that league position is the foolproof way to choose players, but it can be a useful indication of the level they play at. The cream eventually rises to the top. Not saying Leon Britton will never get there, but at almost 30 years of age he is taking his bloody time.

Pro. F · 19-05-2012 4:33pm

G.K. wrote: »

I'd disagree on Milner, but agree overall. I don't like him being used as a CM but he's a good guy to have in the squad.

Ah yeah I didn't mean to be that harsh on him as it looked. I was talking about if a CM pairing is made from the players that Hodgeson has chosen. Milner on the wing, or beside a CM with the required skills can be handy. And he's a good squad choice in isolation because of his versatility and discipline imo.

Ormus wrote: »

I agree with you that Gerrard didn't get going this season but he is still a different league of a player to Leon Britton. Aside from being bigger, stronger and faster, he is also a better passer than him.

Bigger, stronger and faster is not important for central midfield. English players have proven countless times in international competition that size, strength and speed is not an adequate substitute for skill.

Gerrard is in the league of player that has been shown up on the international stage as lacking in the skills for CM. There is no good reason based on his track record for you to be backing him so vociferously for CM.

Saying Gerrard is a better passer is wrong. Gerrard is able to hit spectacular passes better, but for reliable short passing and moving to keep possession in the centre of the pitch Gerrard is absolutely hopeless. I'm not saying don't take Gerrard in the squad, he can play behind the striker well. But when choosing a central midfielder Britton is miles better than him.

Ormus wrote: »

I never ever said that league position is the foolproof way to choose players, but it can be a useful indication of the level they play at. The cream eventually rises to the top. Not saying Leon Britton will never get there, but at almost 30 years of age he is taking his bloody time.

He is taking his time because, as I said, there is an under-appreciation of skilled central midfielders in English football.

Ormus · 21-05-2012 11:31am

Pro. F wrote: »

Bigger, stronger and faster is not important for central midfield. English players have proven countless times in international competition that size, strength and speed is not an adequate substitute for skill.

Gerrard is in the league of player that has been shown up on the international stage as lacking in the skills for CM. There is no good reason based on his track record for you to be backing him so vociferously for CM.

Saying Gerrard is a better passer is wrong. Gerrard is able to hit spectacular passes better, but for reliable short passing and moving to keep possession in the centre of the pitch Gerrard is absolutely hopeless. I'm not saying don't take Gerrard in the squad, he can play behind the striker well. But when choosing a central midfielder Britton is miles better than him.

He is taking his time because, as I said, there is an under-appreciation of skilled central midfielders in English football.

Ask any manager in the world if he would like his midfielders to be bigger and stronger. It's important. Trust me on this.

Gerrard is a more direct and attacking player than Britton. I think he would be better than Britton at playing the defensive midfield role. I don't mean to back him so vociferously though. He has been average for England more often than not and his best years are behind him. But he is still a good midfielder with lots of big game experience and has come up with the goods in big matches for Liverpool many times. Most importantly he is one of the best midfielders England have.

Renn · 21-05-2012 11:49am

Ormus wrote: »

Ask any manager in the world if he would like his midfielders to be bigger and stronger. It's important. Trust me on this.

"People think we had these big, strong players, but we had guys like Evani and Donadoni, who are slight. No, they became big, strong players because of their positioning and movement. That's what made them seem big."

Trust Sacchi on this.

G.K. · 21-05-2012 11:49am

Ormus wrote: »

Ask any manager in the world if he would like his midfielders to be bigger and stronger. It's important. Trust me on this.

I'll ask Guardiola about that so.

Ormus wrote: »

Gerrard is a more direct and attacking player than Britton. I think he would be better than Britton at playing the defensive midfield role.

You don't want an attacking player playing DM...
Nor is directness in any way important.
Ask Liverpool fans about Gerrard in a deep role. he's no good because he's positionally indiciplined. He'll go charging up as if he's an AM and leave no cover there. Britton won't, that's the difference.

Ormus wrote: »

He has been average for England more often than not and his best years are behind him. But he is still a good midfielder with lots of big game experience and has come up with the goods in big matches for Liverpool many times. Most importantly he is one of the best midfielders England have.

It doesn't matter. Gerrard is an attacker. He's not a DM.

Ormus · 21-05-2012 12:08pm

Renn wrote: »

"People think we had these big, strong players, but we had guys like Evani and Donadoni, who are slight. No, they became big, strong players because of their positioning and movement. That's what made them seem big."

Trust Sacchi on this.

That sort of proves my point. He wanted them to be big but their positioning and movement compensated for their lack of stature.

Beefy78 · 21-05-2012 12:08pm

I just think you guys are seriously over-rating Leon Britton. He's a good player with decent technique and ok passing ability playing in a team set up around his strengths. If we had six months until the tournament then I'd love to see him get a chance in a couple of friendlies to see if he could adapt to England or if the rest of the squad could adapt to him. With three weeks until the tournament he wasn't a realistic choice.

Ormus · 21-05-2012 12:11pm

G.K. wrote: »

I'll ask Guardiola about that so.

Guardiola (or Vilanova now) would be thrilled if Xavi and Iniesta were not only superbly skillful but also physically imposing. Every manager would! No brainer.

Renn · 21-05-2012 12:15pm

Ormus wrote: »

That sort of proves my point. He wanted them to be big but their positioning and movement compensated for their lack of stature.

No, his idea of big was in terms of the positioning and movement. Not actually their physical size.

Ormus · 21-05-2012 12:24pm

Renn wrote: »

No, his idea of big was in terms of the positioning and movement. Not actually their physical size.

You need to read it again. Sacchi is saying that their positioning and movement was so good that they got away with not being big.

Renn · 21-05-2012 12:27pm

I've read it and still stand by what I said, thanks.

"Our pressing was psychological as much as physical."

bwatson · 21-05-2012 12:27pm

Ganymede Glow wrote: »

Yeah of course. Can't stand their national circus or the FA for that matter though and before you say anything, a lot of English fans agree.

If Ireland progressed further than them, in a harder group let's the truth, it would be epic and a big two fingers to the English FA.

Huh? You can't stand the FA yet you go out of your way to follow the football in their jurisdiction? You understand that since you cannot stand such vast numbers of those connected to the English game, from the administrators, to the fans and the media that you are well within your right to simply ignore it?

From someone who follows football and society on both sides of the Irish sea, the "circus" following the Irish team at the moment is far greater than that following England. I don't actually see people getting excited and getting behind their team as a bad thing no matter who they are, but I'm just pointing out how little sense you are making!

Ormus · 21-05-2012 12:36pm

Renn wrote: »

I've read it and still stand by what I said, thanks.

"Our pressing was psychological as much as physical."

Yeah pretty much, but that means he is saying that they had to overcome the fact that they weren't physically powerful.

Renn · 21-05-2012 12:42pm

And that not every manager out there wants a player that's physically powerful?

Rekop dog · 21-05-2012 12:42pm

G.K. wrote: »

But England need to keep posession .

Do they?

I think adapting a Chelsea esque ultra defensive formation is by far their best chance of succeeding. They don't have the ability to go toe to toe with any of the top European sides, and wouldn't retain enough possesion whoever they picked imo. I'd have Parker and Milner both in DM roles, both have boundless amounts of energy and would provide excellent defensive cover. They've also decent options up front for pacey counter attacking football, with the likes of Walcott, Young and Wellbeck.

Edit: I'd actually have Jones playing with Parker, and Milner in a wide pos similar to how they lined up vs Spain last November.

Ormus · 21-05-2012 12:49pm

Renn wrote: »

And that not every manager out there wants a player that's physically powerful?

Not every manager wants a player that's only physically powerful, is that what you mean? If so I agree with you.

There is no manager out there who thinks that physical power is a bad thing.

Pro. F · 21-05-2012 3:44pm

Ormus wrote: »

Ask any manager in the world if he would like his midfielders to be bigger and stronger. It's important. Trust me on this.

No I don't trust you. You are stuck in the English mindset of how to choose midfielders, you are completely unaware of the other, far more successful, schools of footballing thought. Ask Guardiola, Del Bosque,
Cruyf, or similar managers which is more important in midfielders, skill or strength, and they will all tell you skill. It's an argument that has been proven on the pitch countless times going back decades.

Physical ability is still important, but skill is more important. What's more England have plenty of players with physical ability so one of them could play alongside Britton and help him out in that regard, just like Britton would be helping them out in keeping and using the possession.
If they play two strong players with a deficiency of skill then they will be hopeless in possession. This is what happens to English teams all the time.

Ormus wrote: »

Gerrard is a more direct and attacking player than Britton. I think he would be better than Britton at playing the defensive midfield role. I don't mean to back him so vociferously though. He has been average for England more often than not and his best years are behind him. But he is still a good midfielder with lots of big game experience and has come up with the goods in big matches for Liverpool many times. Most importantly he is one of the best midfielders England have.

A more attacking player being a better defensive midfielder is a complete non sequitur.

Gerrard hasn't come up with the goods as a central midfielder for Liverpool, he has done all his good work as an AMC. Even when playing in the central midfield position, his good work is still only the AMC work. His big game experience is that he is a shìt central midfielder by European standards.

Jax Teller · 21-05-2012 4:03pm

Leon Britton is good at keeping possession but how good is he get the ball back ?

Beefy78 · 21-05-2012 4:09pm

Pro. F wrote: »

No I don't trust you. You are stuck in the English mindset of how to choose midfielders, you are completely unaware of the other, far more successful, schools of footballing thought. Ask Guardiola, Del Bosque,
Cruyf, or similar managers which is more important in midfielders, skill or strength, and they will all tell you skill. It's an argument that has been proven on the pitch countless times going back decades.

Physical ability is still important, but skill is more important. What's more England have plenty of players with physical ability so one of them could play alongside Britton and help him out in that regard, just like Britton would be helping them out in keeping and using the possession.
If they play two strong players with a deficiency of skill then they will be hopeless in possession. This is what happens to English teams all the time.

I could have sworn that Chelsea won the Champions League with a midfield of Frank Lampard and John Obi Mikel.

Being strong is important. Being skillful is important. But being good is more important than either.

Beefy78 · 21-05-2012 4:10pm

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Leon Britton is good at keeping possession but how good is he get the ball back ?

That's what I asked last week. Anyone know how his tackling stats stand up?

Ormus · 21-05-2012 4:17pm

Pro. F wrote: »

No I don't trust you. You are stuck in the English mindset of how to choose midfielders, you are completely unaware of the other, far more successful, schools of footballing thought. Ask Guardiola, Del Bosque,
Cruyf, or similar managers which is more important in midfielders, skill or strength, and they will all tell you skill. It's an argument that has been proven on the pitch countless times going back decades.

Physical ability is still important, but skill is more important. What's more England have plenty of players with physical ability so one of them could play alongside Britton and help him out in that regard, just like Britton would be helping them out in keeping and using the possession.
If they play two strong players with a deficiency of skill then they will be hopeless in possession. This is what happens to English teams all the time.

A more attacking player being a better defensive midfielder is a complete non sequitur.

Gerrard hasn't come up with the goods as a central midfielder for Liverpool, he has done all his good work as an AMC. Even when playing in the central midfield position, his good work is still only the AMC work. His big game experience is that he is a shìt central midfielder by European standards.

Seriously you have completely missed my point. Please go back and read what I said again. Notice that at no point do I suggest that power is the only worthwhile quality in a midfielder. Notice also that at no point do I even suggest that power is more important than skill.

Yaya Toure is a more attacking player than Glen Whelan. I think Yaya Toure makes a better defensive midfielder than Glen Whelan. Whether you agree with that or not, you have to admit its can't possibly be a non-sequitur.

Stevie G doesn't play defensive midfield but I think he is such a superior player to Leon Britton that he would do a better job in defensive midfield for England than Britton. Just my opinion.

Pro. F · 21-05-2012 4:58pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

I could have sworn that Chelsea won the Champions League with a midfield of Frank Lampard and John Obi Mikel.

Being strong is important. Being skillful is important. But being good is better than both.

Jon Obi Mikel has more skill for controlling the ball in close to his body and turning on it when under pressure than any of the central midfielders England are bringing with him. That is an essential skill to have in CM at this level.

''Being good'' is meaningless if you don't define what the player is good at.

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Leon Britton is good at keeping possession but how good is he get the ball back ?

He defends well enough. Certainly well enough that a partnership of him and one of the more robust English CMs would be solid defensively.

Ormus wrote: »

Seriously you have completely missed my point. Please go back and read what I said again. Notice that at no point do I suggest that power is the only worthwhile quality in a midfielder. Notice also that at no point do I even suggest that power is more important than skill.

No I haven't missed your point. You are trying to argue that size and strength would make up for a deficit of skill in central midfield. That is wrong.

Ormus wrote: »

Yaya Toure is a more attacking player than Glen Whelan. I think Yaya Toure makes a better defensive midfielder than Glen Whelan. Whether you agree with that or not, you have to admit its can't possibly be a non-sequitur.

Yes of course it's a non-sequitur, you are making it look like you think the better attacking is part of what makes him play DM better. You followed ''Gerrard is a more direct and attacking player than Britton.'' immediately with ''I
think he would be better at playing the defensive midfield role.'' Those two statements don't follow - they are non sequiturs.

Ormus wrote: »

Stevie G doesn't play defensive midfield but I think he is such a superior player to Leon Britton that he would do a better job in defensive midfield for England than Britton. Just my opinion.

Keep your opinion.

Chips Ahoy · 21-05-2012 5:01pm

Check out ITV's ad for the euros, haha i love how they build themselves up for a giant fall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7UmvGSzCTE

G.K. · 21-05-2012 5:02pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

I could have sworn that Chelsea won the Champions League with a midfield of Frank Lampard and John Obi Mikel.

Being strong is important. Being skillful is important. But being good is more important than either.

And Britton is good.

Ormus wrote: »

Yaya Toure is a more attacking player than Glen Whelan. I think Yaya Toure makes a better defensive midfielder than Glen Whelan. Whether you agree with that or not, you have to admit its can't possibly be a non-sequitur.

*shakes head*

Hans-Jorg Butt is a better goalscorer than Petr Cech. I think therefore it is clear Butt is the better goalkeeper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Attacking prowess is irrelevant to being a defensive midfielder, where you sit back and protect the defence. Of course it is a non-sequitur.

Ormus wrote: »

Stevie G doesn't play defensive midfield but I think he is such a superior player to Leon Britton that he would do a better job in defensive midfield for England than Britton. Just my opinion.

He is such a superior attacking player. His defensive game is non-existent. There is no way I'd pick Gerrard to play DM over a skilled DM who has established himself at the top tier. You wouldn't ask Hernandez to play CB ahead of Paul McShane, just like you wouldn't ask Shay Given to play CF ahead of Neil Mellor.

Eng-er-land Euro2012 squad

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