Substitute teachers doing more than 22 hours per week

carolzoo

Some teachers through substitute work are earning more than 22 hours a week. This can happen if they are subbing for a few teachers or are already a part time teacher and get extra sub work.

This is extremely unfair to all the part time teachers under 22 hours a week who do not get a look in for the substitute work - not all part time teachers get offered the sub work.

payroll should not allow any teacher to be paid for more than 22 hours a week.

Why are there no checks done on this?
Why is there no transparency in relation to substitute work? - qualified part time teachers of that subject shoudl be given that substitute work first if available those classes, then qualified subs of that subject.
Who is the principal accountable to?

doc_17

When I started out I was never allowed claim for more than 22hours when subbing. If you sent in the form with more than 22 hours it was you own tough titty! (VEC School)

Inspector Coptoor

Furst if all, I don't think it's happening on a large scale.

Secondly, while I agree with you in the main, sometimes what you are proposing would be impossible due to timetable clashes and subject specificity.

In my opinion, the extra class,(40 mins or so) should go to the sub teacher who is able to teach the specific class.

I would not like a sub English teacher for example, to be given a science class to make up some extra cash, that a sub science teacher (who might go over the 22 hours) could teach & get some work done with them.

carolzoo

That was a very efficient VEC so!

Unfortunately and unfairly it is happening.

I was talking in relation to a teacher gathering doing more than 22 hours in one school only a week. Then it's very obvious but still let through by payroll.

But it could also happen if a teacher is doing a mix of subbing between voluntary secondary schools and a school paid by a vec. Because there is no centralised system (vec's payroll is different to the department of education) it would be hard to track I imagine.

I realise a lot of sub work has dried up in schools now but all the same there are teachers who are paid more than 22 hours a week and this is infair on other teachers seeking this sub work

carolzoo

Inspector C

Fair enough - but it is happening where the sub is unqualified in the subject from what I have seen. Mainly where inservice etc is taking place - short periods of absence such as a day or two.
Therefore the class is a supervision class -teacher has work left for them to do (if not sick leave). The sub gives them this work and supervises. Another sub could easily do it and get the hours as opposed to someone earning more than 22 hours

Inspector Coptoor

To be honest, I'd have nothing against someone getting paid an hour if two extra per week on a sub contract.

Subs don't get paid over the school holidays (the school holidays end up being enforced unemployment for them.

Subs gave the rawest deal going in teaching. Teaching us a very unfair profession at the moment.
I know as I'm 6 years out now & while I've never been out of work in those 6 years, I'm still 4 years away from a CID as my contract this year isn't being renewed next year.

So for all those reasons, I really wouldn't think it's an issue worth much further comment until the whole system has a taken in a greater degree of fairness.

The shafting that has gone on to young teachers since 2004 us shocking.

Inspector Coptoor

carolzoo wrote: »

Inspector C

Fair enough - but it is happening where the sub is unqualified in the subject from what I have seen. Mainly where inservice etc is taking place - short periods of absence such as a day or two.
Therefore the class is a supervision class -teacher has work left for them to do (if not sick leave). The sub gives them this work and supervises. Another sub could easily do it and get the hours as opposed to someone earning more than 22 hours

Again, I'd agree with you in the main but what about the weeks that sub gets nowhere near 22 hours?

Is that fair?

I really think it would balance itself out over an academic year and that if you added up all the Subs hours, that it'd end up being less than 751.5 hours.

carolzoo

What about all the part time contracted teachers on the staff who are not on full hours? Are they not entitled to get preference (if qualified in the subject and if available) first to bring them up to 22 hours.

If not - then it is leading to a situation whereby teaching is becomming a part time profession and this is not good for the teaching profession as a whole.

Do principals offer their hours and pay to substitute teachers to help them out over the summer?

Do other professions work as part timers to offer others jobs?? (if they do they can claim the dole if doing a 3 day week)

part time teachers cannot claim the dole for not working a full week as their hours are spread over 5 days.

Some part time teachers aren't making more than the dole when you take account of travel costs etc

After part time teachers ( who are qualified in the relevant subject and if available those sub classes) are offered the hours to bring them up to 22 then of course a qualified sub can take over and sub up to 22 hours. That is only fair. If the school cannot get a qualified sub in those subjects for the short term subbing then the part time contracted teachers not qualified in the relevant in the school should do it until they come up to 22 hours - usually it is supervising classes anyhow and existing part time contracted teachers in the school have an advantage because they know the students names etc

Also the substitute rate of pay incorporates holiday pay so uncontracted teachers subbing are getting holiday pay for their summer holidays in addition to being able to claim the dole for the holidays. They can also claim the dole during the year for days not worked. For example they might get three days subbing and can still claim dole for the days not worked. A situation like that would work out fairly ok money wise.

Teachers not on full hours are getting their part time contracted pay plus holiday pay for any sub work they did during the year. They are not allowed to claim the dole at any stage during the year even though they are not full time teachers and not earning a full salary and are in the school 5 days a week.

Inspector Coptoor

I know all that and I agree with you but you to be fair, you just went off on a tangent there a bit.

I thought you were talking about a sub who was already working in a school, so he/she should know a lot of he names already, no??

Also, sub teachers have "holiday" pay included in their wages which stops them claiming the dole for most of the summer.
I think I was able to claim 3 days at the end if the summer three years ago.

The problem comes from earning way over the SRCOP while working, paying LOADS of tax & not Being able to have the tax adjusted/get a refund until the return to school in Sept.

budgeting for 12 weeks of no wages coming in during yhe summer minths is tough, so once again, I wouldn't begrudge the sub getting over 22 hours the odd week as there is no fairness in teaching unless you are permanent and entered the job Pre 2004, so you can't expect the people in the worst possible position in the job to not take extra work when it's offered.

By the way, you make a great point about the way the job is gone, becoming a part time appearing profession with some people in 16 hours or less.

It really is a sham

carolzoo

I didn't realise social welfare took holiday pay into account when giving out unemployment benefit over the summer to substitute teachers. I know someone who subbed a few years ago and they didnt take this into account at all. He got the going unemployment benefit rate and was able to claim unemployment benefit at the full rate - no deduction was made for holiday pay earned as a substitute teacher - they didnt ask for his payslips to see this break down.

Things must have changed so!

Yes, the system is a disgrace. Universities and now hibernia are churning out hundreds of graduates scraping for positions that are just not there. Why is there not a cap on the profession similar to others? Do gardai or nurses scramble for an hour or two's substitute work? It's a disgrace.

We are becomming a yellow packed part time profession

Inspector Coptoor

No cap us being put in place as its a cheap course to run & a veritable cash cow for the universities.

If UCD had 200 H. Dippers at 7k a pop, that's 1.4M euro in revenue.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

Some teachers through substitute work are earning more than 22 hours a week. This can happen if they are subbing for a few teachers or are already a part time teacher and get extra sub work.

Well assuming they are below 22 hours in the first place, I don't have a huge problem with it. It's not guaranteed work and realistically it's overtime.

I thought most teachers were happy to see those that don't have full hours get some extra hours from time to time. Better than it going to unqualified randomers.

carolzoo wrote: »

This is extremely unfair to all the part time teachers under 22 hours a week who do not get a look in for the substitute work - not all part time teachers get offered the sub work.

payroll should not allow any teacher to be paid for more than 22 hours a week.

Why??? You've just said people not on full hours are getting subbing work. Now you're saying that it's unfair if people under 22 hours don't get subbing work? Which is it?


Not all part time teachers get subbing work because it's up to the principal/deputy principal to sort out subbing. It may not suit timetable wise and there could be other factors.

Why shouldn't people be paid for the hours that they do. If you were working in private sector you would expect to be paid for overtime if you did more than 40 hours a week.

carolzoo wrote: »

Why are there no checks done on this?
Why is there no transparency in relation to substitute work? - qualified part time teachers of that subject shoudl be given that substitute work first if available those classes, then qualified subs of that subject.
Who is the principal accountable to?

And most schools do try to implement it in this way, but if my DP needs someone to cover a class at short notice because someone rang in sick at 8.55am or whatever, he'll use whoever is available, more often than not teachers who are in the school, available and know the students.

eager tortoise

I was put through for more than 22 hours last month - I am part-time and was aware when I went beyond 22 hours but said yes to be obliging as they were stuck, was not expecting to be paid for it. I was paid but I have since been told that I cannot teach more than 22 hours and the extra amount I was paid will be taken out of my next wages. So are you sure the people on 22 hours+ are being properly paid for those hours and it is not a similar situation?

lestat21

I'd like carolzoo to clarify what they consider unfair in this situation. You seemed very passionate in your OP but you made several different points.

Im a part time teacher and i have nothing against full qualified teachers been brought in to sub as its the right thing to do. Theyre qualified and Im not. Also I was completely unemployed between Sept and Jan so I think there is nothing wrong with subs who work more than 22 hours been paid for all the hours that they work. Carolzoo was it part time teachers or subs who you think are been paid for more than 22 hours??

Very often part time teachers are the only subs available to a school because of time constraints and distance. I have subbed in classes that I am not qualified to teach but I stuck to the material left by the teacher and just facilitated student work. As a part time teacher you never say no to subbing hours because you want to make yourself as helpful as possible. Foot in door syndrome!! I know that if I was asked to sub a class I wouldnt be worrying if I had more than 22 hours and I believe thats what has happened in the situation carolzoo is highlighting.

As bad as the part time nature of the profession is, the willingness of teachers to offer their services for free in the hope of maintaining a good relationship with the school is probably a sign of worse things to come.. *sigh*

carolzoo

of course fully qualified teachers to be brought in to sub in the subjects the part time teachers are not qualified to sub in

but if a fully qualified teacher of the subjects required cannot be found then the sub work should go to the part time teacher on the staff qualified but not qualified in that subject (if free those times or some of those times) as the first port of call - if it is short term work - a day or two. As opposed to getting an outside teacher qualified but not qualified in the subject required in.

It's not the teachers taking the work, it's the fact that it shouldnt have been offered to them after 22 hours - the surplus should be given to another part time teacher if available, first.

It can be some contracted part time teachers given extra sub work in any particular week which brings them over the 22 hours. And - it can be outside substiute teachers brought in any given week given a mixture of sub work from different teacher absences that brings them over the 22 hours.

Other part time teachers on staff willing and available get none of this extra sub work.

If you are out of work sept to dec that is unfortunate but regardless I thought 22 hours is the max any teacher can be paid for for in one week.

lestat21

carolzoo wrote: »

If you are out of work sept to dec that is unfortunate but regardless 22 hours is the max any teacher can be paid for in one week.

Well then, as other posters have suggested, are these teachers getting paid for these extra hours?? OR are they doing them to stay on good terms with school management?????

carolzoo

I thought they were being paid for them until another poster said otherwise.

I had heard they got paid for them. But another poster has said otherwise. It might depend on the school or the vec if they were vigilent enough to spot it. Some might let it go.

Also if subbing between a variety of schools, voluntary schools (paid by dept) and vec schools (paid by vec) it might be hard to detect if a teacher got paid for more than22 hours in total

I am unsure, but I ment that 22 hours is all any teacher can work. I did not want to phrase it this way as we all work way more than 22 hours with corrections and preparations.

lestat21

carolzoo wrote: »

I thought they were being paid for them until another poster said otherwise.

I had heard they got paid for them. But another poster has said otherwise. It might depend on the school or the vec if they were vigilent enough to spot it. Some might let it go.

Also if subbing between a variety of schools, voluntary schools (paid by dept) and vec schools (paid by vec) it might be hard to detect if a teacher got paid for more than22 hours in total

I am unsure, but I ment that 22 hours is all any teacher can work. I did not want to phrase it this way as we all work way more than 22 hours with corrections and preparations.

As your speaking about teachers subbing in more than one form of secondary school, I'll assume this doesnt relate to part time teachers. As you know, teachers regularly subbing in a variety of schools is very rare!! For any substitute to get more than 22 hours a week, they would be given a full timetable at least four days a week. That is vitually unheard of.

This may be an issue in your particular school/area, but I dont think this situation is common. I've never heard of anything like this happening. And none of my friends who do subbing get close to 22 hours in a regular week!!

carolzoo

I am also speaking about teachers doing more than 22 hours in one school and yes this does happen if some teachers are given preference for the sub work over others they can easily clock up over 22 hours a week (if asked to cover parts of the timetable of a few teachers that may be out) This is what I was referring to mainly but I then added in about teachers who sub between schools also.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

I am also speaking about teachers doing more than 22 hours in one school and yes this does happen if some teachers are given preference for the sub work over others they can easily clock up over 22 hours a week (if asked to cover parts of the timetable of a few teachers that may be out) This is what I was referring to mainly but I then added in about teachers who sub between schools also.

Again, like your other thread this sounds like an issue specific to your school rather than a nationwide problem.

You should bring this up with your union rep perhaps and ask them to approach the principal and ask that all part time teachers be considered for subbing work. Are all of them signed up to the supervision and substitution scheme? If not, maybe preference is given to those who are. Maybe preference is given to those who are willing to make themselves available at 9 every morning whether they have classes or not so if cover is needed at short notice they are available to do it.

I've often been in the staff room when the DP has walked in when the bell has gone for a change of class and looked around to see if someone was available to cover a class. In that case it goes to whoever he sees first that's available.

Of course it may come down to favoritism too, and if that is an issue then make representations to management.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe preference is given to those who are willing to make themselves available at 9 every morning whether they have classes or not so if cover is needed at short notice they are available to do it.

I've often been in the staff room when the DP has walked in when the bell has gone for a change of class and looked around to see if someone was available to cover a class. In that case it goes to whoever he sees first that's available.

I think this could be a factor.

I started off in my school subbing without any hours or timetable. I came in at 8.30 every morning five days a week. I got plenty of hours.

I don't think I got hours in preference to contracted part time teachers - nor am I suggesting that I should have - but the odds were that if I was free literally all the time then I would likely be free for any and all classes that arose. On the other hand, part time contracted teachers were more likely to be already in class when a lot of classes came up.

After a couple of months I was given a small timetable of bits and pieces - SPHE and library classes (JCSP school). This kept me in school every day but left me available for most subbing. And yes, at this stage I often worked over 22 hours per week. None of this involved any long term cover for subjects I'm not qualified in - the school always got a suitable sub in for any longer absences if they couldn't cover it with a qualified part time teacher already in the school.

In a big school with a big staff there can be a lot subbing needed on a day to day basis - but of course this was also back in the time when it was easier for schools to fund cover for trips or matches etc. That's not the case anymore. I didn't and don't feel one bit guilty for working over 22 hours. I made myself available every day and spent many days sitting around unpaid with no classes. Other people didn't.

And as already was mentioned - I could not claim SW in the summer until my holiday pay had run out. So I could actually only claim for few weeks or so at the end of August because my total hours had nearly equalled full time hours so I was basically "paid" until then by the inclusive hourly rate.

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You should bring this up with your union rep perhaps and ask them to approach the principal and ask that all part time teachers be considered for subbing work.

This is what happened in the case I described, as it should, and it did resolve the problem.

I do agree slightly with rainbowtrout that I don't think this is a huge issue countrywide, especially these days with very little subbing going, however it does happen.

In your case specifically carolzoo I do think that the union rep needs to be speaking to the principal on behalf of the entire staff to make all things equal

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I think this could be a factor.

I started off in my school subbing without any hours or timetable. I came in at 8.30 every morning five days a week. I got plenty of hours.

I don't think I got hours in preference to contracted part time teachers - nor am I suggesting that I should have - but the odds were that if I was free literally all the time then I would likely be free for any and all classes that arose. On the other hand, part time contracted teachers were more likely to be already in class when a lot of classes came up.

After a couple of months I was given a small timetable of bits and pieces - SPHE and library classes (JCSP school). This kept me in school every day but left me available for most subbing. And yes, at this stage I often worked over 22 hours per week. None of this involved any long term cover for subjects I'm not qualified in - the school always got a suitable sub in for any longer absences if they couldn't cover it with a qualified part time teacher already in the school.

In a big school with a big staff there can be a lot subbing needed on a day to day basis - but of course this was also back in the time when it was easier for schools to fund cover for trips or matches etc. That's not the case anymore. I didn't and don't feel one bit guilty for working over 22 hours. I made myself available every day and spent many days sitting around unpaid with no classes. Other people didn't.

And as already was mentioned - I could not claim SW in the summer until my holiday pay had run out. So I could actually only claim for few weeks or so at the end of August because my total hours had nearly equalled full time hours so I was basically "paid" until then by the inclusive hourly rate.

ya, there are a number of part time teachers in our school. Some come in every morning for 9, the DP is aware of who they are and knows he can go to the staff room and get them for cover for first class if necessary. There are other part timers who don't come in first class if they are not on, which they are entitled to do but of course miss out on subbing. The other thing is lets say they are not on until break. Well the DP can go to the part timer who is in at 9 and give them the first three classes of the day as cover there and then, or they can give them the first class and in the interests of fairness ring around to the other part timers who are still at home in bed and ask them if they would come in second or third class. Now those people would probably come in if they could make it in, but that means the DP has to sort out subbing with two or more people and make a load of phonecalls where a short trip to the staff room and a 2 minute conversation with one person will sort out all of his problems. Of course he is going to give the work to the person who is there.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

This is what happened in the case I described, as it should, and it did resolve the problem.

I do agree slightly with rainbowtrout that I don't think this is a huge issue countrywide, especially these days with very little subbing going, however it does happen.

In your case specifically carolzoo I do think that the union rep needs to be speaking to the principal on behalf of the entire staff to make all things equal

we had this problem a few years ago where the DPs wife was being brought in for subbing ahead of part timers. I was the union rep at the time so I had fun that year, but we did raise the issue and things improved somewhat.

carolzoo

fair enough rainbowtrout but what about the contracted part timers who are in before first class and get ignored for the sub work. If it happens long enough why would they come in?

Your principal must have told all contracted part timers that if they are in at 9am they will be given first preference for the sub work. They know and are available in hope. That is good practice and should be done in more schools.

Unfortunately this is not the case in my school. Part timers have been in and it still does not go to them. Only goes to the select few!. They others may get a class or two if the principal is stuck but that's it.

It's hard to work in our staff room - there isnt room to sneeze. Much easier to do preparation work and corrections at home if free. So why would contracted part time teachers come in to school when not on when they aren't been considered for the sub work?

Fair play to ye for rectifying the DP's wife getting sub work ahead of the part time teachers. This is a typical example of why principals have way too much power in giving state funded jobs to people. Open to exploitation.

lestat21

carolzoo wrote: »

fair enough rainbowtrout but what about the contracted part timers who are in before first class and get ignored for the sub work. If it happens long enough why would they come in?

Your principal must have told all contracted part timers that if they are in at 9am they will be given first preference for the sub work. They know and are available in hope. That is good practice and should be done in more schools.

Unfortunately this is not the case in my school. Part timers have been in and it still does not go to them. Only goes to the select few!. They others may get a class or two if the principal is stuck but that's it.

It's hard to work in our staff room - there isnt room to sneeze. Much easier to do preparation work and corrections at home if free. So why would contracted part time teachers come in to school when not on when they aren't been considered for the sub work?

Fair play to ye for rectifying the DP's wife getting sub work ahead of the part time teachers. This is a typical example of why principals have way too much power in giving state funded jobs to people. Open to exploitation.

If the majority of part timers dont get the subbing work then who does?? It cant be just one or two part timers... Have you tried doing prep work in the study area or library.. or even the canteen? Youre in easy sight and also in a position to monitor student behaviour if there are any issues.. In several schools Ive been in the language lab/demo room is largely unused and you'd just have to borrow the key.

If youre unwilling to bring up the issue of subbing with your rep, I understand. But maybe bringing up the idea of a teachers study area in a staff meeting could help you. Course you know your schools situation with regard to free rooms and organisation best.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

I am a part time qualified teacher.
I often sub for more than 22 hours- I only get paid for 22. The Department will not pay for more than 22.

The following week the school 'carries over' the hours and I get paid for the extra hours from previous week.

The only unfair thing that I see about this is that I can't get a full time job!

carolzoo

I am a permanent teacher. Am just speaking in relation to part time friends/colleagues of mine.

The majority of the sub work goes to one qualified teacher of business - not teaching in the school - He gets called in a lot. Two part time teachers (one who is favoured obviously! the other has connections with the principal) are also called upon. H.dip students when in the school are also given preference for the sub work.

Bear in mind most of these absenses require just supervision. They are short term absenses and the substitute teacher generally does not teach - just supervises and gives students the work the teacher has left for them to do.

There are several other part time teachers in the school who never get a look in for extra sub work - bar the odd class or two a month (when the above subs are all occupied subbing -i.e. in a particularly busy week of absenses.

Bear in mind there is nothing exceptional about the teachers who are called on to do the sub work in terms of teaching ability or classroom management which makes them stand out ahead of the other part time teachers who are never called to do the sub work.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

Bear in mind there is nothing exceptional about the teachers who are called on to do the sub work in terms of teaching ability or classroom management which makes them stand out ahead of the other part time teachers who are never called to do the sub work.

And you know this how?

How do you know the DP's view on it all. Maybe if the DP uses one of the "unpopular" subs they constantly end up having to help them out on discipline issues, minor ones even that others don't hear of because it wasnt a major issue.
There could be a multitude of reasons why, it could be just down to connections, it could be down to a number of reasons unknown to you.

To be honest I am finding it hard to keep up as the story throughout the thread is quite confusing and changing at times to suit.

If there is a problem you have to go to your union rep on this issue, particularly if you are one of the permanent staff as some of the part timers may feel they cannot do it them selves out of fear of rocking the boat.
Stand up for the part timers and get your union rep to speak with the principal.
As has been said here a couple of times we have put down examples where this has worked.
going on about it here is not going to do any good. The same thing is being said over and over from what I can see and it's going no where only the same questions being asked each time.

Use the union rep that is what they are there for. If that fails ring the union yourself to ask is there anything else that you (the permanent members of staff) can do. Stand up for the little people:p

carolzoo

I was just answering lestat 21 's post - they asked me who gets the sub work

I added in the last bit for extra information on the school situation.

carolzoo

i

lestat21

huh that sounds like my school... kinda.. in our case the secretary organises all the substitution

We have an unemployed sub who does a lot of work. Dippers have been in after their experience to cover classes. Me and a handful of other part timers get a fair bit of subbing work too but it varies quite a bit. Im not 100% what subbing hours other part timers are getting if any but no one seems that put out by it... of course theres no obvious favourites with the part timers so that might be the difference...

I was speaking to our regular sub teacher and he told me that if a sub was unavailable for a particular class and this happened more than once, they wouldnt be called again about subbing. In fact I was unavailable one day and didnt get any subbing for the next three weeks but I understood their thinking. You have to keep in mind the number of part timers, who have their own hours, and arent always available when the office is looking for a short notice sub..

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

I was just answering lestat 21 's post - they asked me who gets the sub work

I added in the last bit for extra information on the school situation.

You still did not answer the question how do you know that the popular subs are not fantastic in the classroom compared to some of the others. And by using these "fantastic" subs over the others it actually allows the DP to get on with their own work without having to save some of the other subs.

I do not know this is the case, neither do you unless you have observed their classrooms.

As I said if this is an issue in your school you need to do all you can to help out the people who have to keep quiet for their own sake

carolzoo

I do not know but certaintly the other part timers who do not get a look in are hard working and competent.

How do you mean by using one sub over another allows the dp to get on with his work?

"I said in a previous post that there is nothing exceptional about the teachers who are called to do the sub work in terms of teaching ability or classroom management"

Again this statement is subjective and I am not qualified to make such a statement but the part time teachers who are not called for hte sub work appear confident and dedicated similar to the ones who get the sub work. Again I probably should not have commented on this as who am I to make this judgement so lets leave this argument out of it. I should not have commented on my perception.

I did not say the subs that were called were "fantastic" and how can you make the claim the dp picks one sub over the other so they do not have to help them out with discipline issues. This is not the case in my school. It goes to people who are connected and favoured (friends) first - bottom line.

This has gone off topic.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

I do not know but certaintly the other part timers who do not get a look in are hard working and competent.

How do you mean by using one sub over another allows the dp to get on with his work?

"I said in a previous post that there is nothing exceptional about the teachers who are called to do the sub work in terms of teaching ability or classroom management"

Again this statement is subjective and I am not qualified to make such a statement but the part time teachers who are not called for hte sub work appear confident and dedicated similar to the ones who get the sub work. Again I probably should not have commented on this as who am I to make this judgement so lets leave this argument out of it. I should not have commented on my perception.

I did not say the subs that were called were "fantastic" and how can you make the claim the dp picks one sub over the other so they do not have to help them out with discipline issues. This is not the case in my school. It goes to people who are connected and favoured (friends) first - bottom line.

This has gone off topic.

As I said you believe that the reason they are being picked was because they were being favoured. This is your opinion not necessarily correct.

I used the term fantastic just to try differentiate the argument as you are getting confused by it.

What I said about the DP getting on with their job was all linked in with what you said.

Say for example the DP has 2 subs to choose from. One where every other day the DP is called to the class to quieten down the class for the sub, or the sub has someone at their office for something every other day (yes I know I am using the extreme just to make my point)
The other (as you call them) "favoured" sub who does not need to call on the DP ever. So the DP can get on with his own paperwork etc.

If I am the DP I know who I choose.

These people are "favoured" in your opinion. Maybe they might happen to be the favourite for all the right reasons as I have pointed out above.

You being a class teacher do not know the ins and outs of whats going on when you are in class yourself.

It is not gone off topic as it obviously relates to these people getting over 22 hours which is the whole point of your thread. Just as you see I have pointed out a clear flaw in your argument does not mean it is going off thread. These are the people you started the thread about so I do not see how it is off topic.

As I said your argument is constantly changing to suit what you are trying to say each time.

If there is a real issue its up to the union to solve it.

Otherwise possibly you have a gripe with the DP over something etc, who knows we are only hearing one side of the argument.

I have tried twice to give you a different side of the argument, just because you do not agree does not mean it is not possible.

I am not saying either is the case in your school I have just pointed out your argument from the side of the DP not just yours.

Who knows we could both be wrong.

If its genuine its not fair on anyone to expect you to go to the principal about it. Use what is at your disposal for these types of issues.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

fair enough rainbowtrout but what about the contracted part timers who are in before first class and get ignored for the sub work. If it happens long enough why would they come in?

Your principal must have told all contracted part timers that if they are in at 9am they will be given first preference for the sub work. They know and are available in hope. That is good practice and should be done in more schools.

Unfortunately this is not the case in my school. Part timers have been in and it still does not go to them. Only goes to the select few!. They others may get a class or two if the principal is stuck but that's it.

It's hard to work in our staff room - there isnt room to sneeze. Much easier to do preparation work and corrections at home if free. So why would contracted part time teachers come in to school when not on when they aren't been considered for the sub work?

Fair play to ye for rectifying the DP's wife getting sub work ahead of the part time teachers. This is a typical example of why principals have way too much power in giving state funded jobs to people. Open to exploitation.

No that is not the case. I do not do S&S for a variety of reasons, all part timers opt for it for money more than anything else. Again, it's a numbers game, if they make themselves as available as they can they will probably end up with more hours and the DP will be more disposed to giving them the hours which I outlined in an earlier post, but no one was told to come in early. Just like in any staff room there are people who are in every morning for 9 whether they are on or not and there are those who come in for their first class. No reflection on them as a teacher, but for subbing the former category are probably more useful to management.

Situation wasn't fully rectified, but it was improved a bit.

carolzoo wrote: »

I do not know but certaintly the other part timers who do not get a look in are hard working and competent.

How do you mean by using one sub over another allows the dp to get on with his work?

"I said in a previous post that there is nothing exceptional about the teachers who are called to do the sub work in terms of teaching ability or classroom management"

Again this statement is subjective and I am not qualified to make such a statement but the part time teachers who are not called for hte sub work appear confident and dedicated similar to the ones who get the sub work. Again I probably should not have commented on this as who am I to make this judgement so lets leave this argument out of it. I should not have commented on my perception.

I did not say the subs that were called were "fantastic" and how can you make the claim the dp picks one sub over the other so they do not have to help them out with discipline issues. This is not the case in my school. It goes to people who are connected and favoured (friends) first - bottom line.

This has gone off topic.

It would appear that management in your school clearly have favourites then if it's not any of the other reasons outlined above. If this is the case then it is up to the staff to get the union rep to make representations on their behalf. This is why people are paying their subscriptions.

carolzoo

Fair enough Seaville.

But I know in our school that is not the case. It is people with connections to the principal who get first preference for the sub work. Discipline issues do not come into it.

Other teachers have noticed and commented on the substitute work situation too. It is hard on part time teachers never being considered for the sub work.

I told you this already and you returned to the discipline argument. And it is the principal who allocates the substitute hours in my school not the dp as it appears to be in other schools.

carolzoo

yes Rainbowtrout that is what will have to happen. Unfortunately a lot of the contracted part time teachers will be hoping for positions next year and will not want to rock the boat.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

Fair enough Seaville.

But I know in our school that is not the case. It is people with connections to the principal who get first preference for the sub work. Discipline issues do not come into it.

Other teachers have noticed and commented on the substitute work situation too. It is hard on part time teachers never being considered for the sub work.

I told you this already and you returned to the discipline argument.

As I keep repeating - in yere opinions.

I was using the discipline issue as an example.

As I did some behavioural work in a previous school I was more free to deal with certain things if they came up. In this role I saw how many time the DP was called to rooms etc. to deal with things. One time before I got there he even had to remove all the other pupils from a room as the culprit refused to move.
NONE of the staff ever found out about this. NONE of the staff knew some of the things we dealt with only the teacher involved.


You are in class you have no idea what the DP is doing to help out these subs. This is your opinion - does not make it fact.

Have you ever thought that yes maybe this person is a "friend of the principal" but also maybe they are actually excellent at what they do. Maybe they happened to be the one available when needed as rainbowtrout has pointed out.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

yes Rainbowtrout that is what will have to happen. Unfortunately a lot of the contracted part time teachers will be hoping for positions next year and will not want to rock the boat.

That is why I have said 2 or 3 times that the permanent staff like yourself need to help out here and approach the union rep if they are so asleep they havn't picked up on the issues that are so apparent.

As I siad this is what happened in my school the senior staff and the union rep discussed it, he went to principal, issue sorted mostly.

carolzoo

Please - the whole staff can see what is happening in our school (and have commented on it and how unfair it is to the subs never called) but people keep their heads down as it is not affecting them directly.

It is only affecting the contracted part time teachers who are not given this sub work.

Are you management that you are so defensive about it? or are you a part time teacher/sub that gets a lot of sub work?

lestat21

carolzoo wrote: »

yes Rainbowtrout that is what will have to happen. Unfortunately a lot of the contracted part time teachers will be hoping for positions next year and will not want to rock the boat.

Thank Jesus you finally listened to good auld rainbowtrout... he said that in the 20th comment on this thread, which went round in multiple circles.

If you have a specific question about your school situation, then ask it, get your answer and say thank you. By making generalisations about the hours available in subbing and the way principals assign hours, you've annoyed a fair few people. It was like pulling teeth trying to figure out wot you were on bout....

carolzoo

going to the union before on issues has not worked in my school for various reasons i cannot go into.

I will fully support the union rep if others will go with me. Unfortunately I do not think this will happen in our school

carolzoo

I will bow out so.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

Please - the whole staff can see what is happening in our school (and have commented on it and how unfair it is to the subs never called) but people keep their heads down as it is not affecting them directly.

It is only affecting the contracted part time teachers who are not given this sub work.

Are you management that you are so defensive about it? or are you a part time teacher/sub that gets a lot of sub work?

Have you personally approached the union rep in your school and asked them to speak to the principal on the issue?

No god no. I am far from management. I am one of the usual ones, not permanent like yourself, travelling around from school to school for the last 5 years getting bits of contracts sometimes and 22 hours sometimes.

I am not being defensive about management its called debate. Its seeing 2 sides to a problem, not just one.
You are obviously very upset by the whole thing but that does not mean there isn't another side to it.
Look how many times have we all had a story from a kid and said right there is always 2 sides to everything so you go and look into it before doing any more.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

going to the union before on issues has not worked in my school for various reasons i cannot go into.

I will fully support the union rep if others will go with me. Unfortunately I do not think this will happen in our school

So I take it you did not approach the union yourself on this issue. You are then like the ones you described keeping your head down.
You cannot just say because things did not work in the past this cannot be fixed.

Blaming everyone else is easy. See can you help the part timers yourself if no one else is going to. They will really appreaciate it as you said yourself they have to kepp their heads down.

rainbowtrout

carolzoo wrote: »

Please - the whole staff can see what is happening in our school (and have commented on it and how unfair it is to the subs never called) but people keep their heads down as it is not affecting them directly.

It is only affecting the contracted part time teachers who are not given this sub work.

Are you management that you are so defensive about it? or are you a part time teacher/sub that gets a lot of sub work?

It's going to continue in that way without change unless the staff decide as a group to make it happen. To compound problems even more, due to an amalgamation we have two unions in my school, so both unions may not have the same issues. However in my union we have taken the decision that the rep position is rotated on an annual basis and cannot be held by a part time teacher, so we can protect those teachers, as those are the ones in need of protection. I, as a permanent teacher can go in as the rep and air staff grievances without fear of losing my job.

If things are the way they are in your school, and permanent staff are not willing to help the part time staff, nothing will ever change.

It would cost nothing for the rep to call a meeting with the principal and say something along the lines of 'I'm here as rep to put forward the opinion that our union members would like to see subbing hours distributed as evenly as possible between all part time staff willing to participate in S&S'.

Leaving aside for the moment the notion that any of the staff might have disciplinary problems etc, it does not have to be an attack on the way hours are distributed to favourites, simply a concern that teachers on low hours may be overlooked and considered the 'current economic climate' (I hate that phrase), staff would like to see all part timers helped out as much as possible.

Understandably carolzoo, part timers aren't going to march into the office demanding hours for fear of their jobs for next year, but permanent staff can do it through the union.

carolzoo

Thank you Rainbowtrout for your help. I am going to look into it.

seavill

carolzoo wrote: »

Thank you Rainbowtrout for your help. I am going to look into it.

You are more than welcome. We are all here to help