Undertaking on the motorway

Jesus.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Depends how far visible is really. The thing is if everybody drove correctly nobody would get a nasty surprise. .

But there's correctly and then there's "by the book". You must sooner or later concede that real World driving is often not covered in a little black and white diary formulated by civil-servants in the 4th floor of a Dublin office.

That's all I'm saying. Apologies for the condescension.

Sean Kinvarra

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Depends how far visible is really. The thing is if everybody drove correctly nobody would get a nasty surprise.

p.s. Less condescending stuff too please.

So driving the long way around a hogger who is in lane 3 is safer That is making 6 lane changes and 1 overtake is the correct way, rather undertake that hogger who is two lanes to your right. Just as well we don't have 5 and 6 lanes. I suppose it would be safer to make 8 or more lane changes. Just curious but have you ever driven on motorways in a country with multi lanes? And what would you do if there was a hogger driving well below the speed limit in lane 5 of a busy 6 lane motorway. You would be more likely to get a nasty surprise than I would, don't you think?

Henry Ford III

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

So driving the long way around a hogger who is in lane 3 is safer That is making 6 lane changes and 1 overtake is the correct way, rather undertake that hogger who is two lanes to your right. Just as well we don't have 5 and 6 lanes. I suppose it would be safer to make 8 or more lane changes. Just curious but have you ever driven on motorways in a country with multi lanes? And what would you do if there was a hogger driving well below the speed limit in lane 5 of a busy 6 lane motorway. You would be more likely to get a nasty surprise than I would, don't you think?

Yes I've driven plenty of places with 3 or more lanes. M25 around London is a good example. Same rules apply. It's a demanding road due to volume of traffic and requires a lot of lane changes.

I've also driven quite a bit in the USA, where the rules are different, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

alias no.9

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes I've driven plenty of places with 3 or more lanes. M25 around London is a good example. Same rules apply. It's a demanding road due to volume of traffic and requires a lot of lane changes.

I've also driven quite a bit in the USA, where the rules are different, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

Not sure whether it's advisory or compulsory but there are some interstates in the US with signage telling slower traffic to keep right.

Cabaal

djimi wrote: »

Why are people quoting websites that have no relevance to Ireland?

In America.......

Sean Kinvarra

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes I've driven plenty of places with 3 or more lanes. M25 around London is a good example. Same rules apply. It's a demanding road due to volume of traffic and requires a lot of lane changes.

I've also driven quite a bit in the USA, where the rules are different, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

As you've used the words "nasty surprise". I assume you've brought the danger factor into this discussion. So I think it is irrelevant and makes me think you wouldn't undertake

Straight Question. How many lanes between you in driving lane and hogger would you feel safe to undertake or simply pass on inside?

CiniO

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

No 3. If everyone is overtaking him in driving lane and stopping him from changing to driving lane wouldn't they also be stopping those from entering from slip road. That means those in lane are tailgating which is an offence.

Not really.
Example from few days ago.
I'm driving a bus on 2 lane motorway with fitted speed limiter of 100km/h
I'm driving in driving lane, and approach a car doing about 90km/h.
I move to overtaking lane and start overtaking. Unfortunately car accelerates to about 99km/h and it lasts about 1 minute before I manage to get ahead of the car. When I'm ready to move left, car accelerates even more unabling me to move left and effectively undertaking me. This lasts for another 30 seconds. By this time there is already a good bit of traffic built up behind me.
Car undertook me, but before I managed to move left, there was next one undertaking me. And next one, and next one. And probably 20 cars undertook me before I had a chance to move left.

What would happen if the hogger had a car driving beside him in lane 1 driving at same speed and hogger changes to driving lane without checking mirrors and collides. In my opinion the hogger would be 100% at fault.

He would indeed.

Poland - Undertaking is legal on 4-lane roads in built-up areas, 6-lane roads outside built-up areas

That's not exactly correct.
If you want to go into details, it's legal to undertake in built up areas on single carriage ways, which have at least 2 lanes in your direction.
Or outside built-up areas when there is at least 3 lanes in your direction.

I think your 4-lane and 6-lane came from idea that it must be 2x2 or 4x4 roads, but that's not the case.
In first place this only applies to single-carriageways.
And secondly it can be mixed. F.e. if you are on road outside built-up area with 3 lanes (two in your direction and one in opposite direction) then you can't undertake. But if it's 4 lane road, with 3 lanes in your direction and one lane in other direction, then you can undertake.

This all hardly matters though, as all motorways and dualcariiageways are treated as two one-way roads, and this makes undertaking legal on them in all the cases.

and on one-way roads with marked lanes (this definition includes motorways). (article 24 of Law on Road Traffic) However, similar to the UK it is considered a dangerous practice and is discouraged.

By who is it considered dangerous practice?
By drivers - probably yes.
But as it's not illegal, you can't be fines for doing so.

And it's also legal in UK. That includes N.Ireland

I think enough proof in this thread was shown that it isn't legal in UK.

Henry Ford III

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

As you've used the words "nasty surprise". I assume you've brought the danger factor into this discussion. So I think it is irrelevant and makes me think you wouldn't undertake

Straight Question. How many lanes between you in driving lane and hogger would you feel safe to undertake or simply pass on inside?

Yes undertaking on a motorway in Ireland is indeed dangerous. It's also illegal. That's why Gardai will and do prosecute offending drivers for doing so.

I'm not interested in answering your question - frankly that's my business and none of yours, and not relevant to the thread.

degsie

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes undertaking on a motorway in Ireland is indeed dangerous. It's also illegal. That's why Gardai will and do prosecute offending drivers for doing so.

Proof?

Henry Ford III

degsie wrote: »

Proof?

Examples on various motoring threads of boardsies who have been done for undertaking.

Surely you don't need empirical evidence of that?

visual

degsie wrote: »

Proof?

Ive seen garda follow a small convoy of cars stuck behind lane hogger in overtaking lane waiting for their opportunity to strike when one of drivers decides to undertake to make progress.

Unfortunately they didn't bother tackling the root cause and pull in the lane hogger driving below the speed limit and refusing to return to the driving lane.

Sean Kinvarra

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes undertaking on a motorway in Ireland is indeed dangerous. It's also illegal. That's why Gardai will and do prosecute offending drivers for doing so.

I'm not interested in answering your question - frankly that's my business and none of yours, and not relevant to the thread.

How is it dangerous to undertake or pass on inside a vehicle that is 3 lanes to your right? You are talking a load of nonsense. I suppose this is none of mine or anyone else's business

And BTW it is NOT illegal in UK



by T.C » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:37 pm


Having spent many years booking people for bad driving on the Motorway, and now advising on liability and traffic law after an accident in a civillian capacity, to answer the original point, there is absolutely nothing in law to prevent someone undertaking if lane 2 or 3 is being hogged.

Contrary to popular belief and what many of these fly on the wall TV programmes would have you believe, there is no specific offence of nearside overtake, in fact it was removed from the statute books when the 1972 Road traffic Act was introduced.

In its place is the section 3 offence of careless driving, but to secure a conviction for the offence the prosecution have to prove that the stanndard of driving fell well below the standard expected of a reasonably competent driver. The simple act of a nearside overtake would not be sufficient, but if the undertaking vehicle then weaves from lane to lane, then that would be a different matter.

As far as hogging lanes 2 or 3 are concerned, the law states that the left hand lane is the driving lane and lanes 2 and 3 (or 4 where applicable) are simply overtaking lanes, and unless slower moving vehicles are being passed, then the driver should return to the nearside lane when it is practicable and convenient to do so, despite the fact that many drivers would still have you believe that we have slow, fast and overtaking lanes.

So the issue really arises when there is a clear open stretch of road or where the driver is clearly not gaining on a behicle ahead in lane 1 and the driver chooses to sit in the middle or outside lane.

In this case, then the other part of the section 3 offence comes into play, "Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users" which is just another sub section of careless driving but carries the same penalty.

It used to be common place to report such drivers, especially when we had full time Motorway patrols, but things are somewhat different these days, well in my old force anyway.

In regards to civil claims, the courts are now starting to realise that the nearside overtake is not illegal and finding in favour of the driver who nipped passed on the nearside and got clobbered because of the numpty who sat in the middle lane and then decided to go back to lane 1 without first checking.

I have dealt with about 6 or 7 of these in the past 12 months and won every one (or at least my colleagues have in respect of the civil personal injury cases) and the middle lane hogger has been held 100% liable. The hogger has a statutory duty of care not only to drive in the correct lane, but also ensure it is safe to return back to the nearside lane before he commences changing position.

This type of accident is most common amongst motorcyclists, and whilst every case has to be judged according to the evidence, I have had many where the defendant third party has immidiately quoted Powell v Moody (1966) and backed it up with "Of course undertaking is an illegal manouevre" and then get very embarrased when I go back and ask them to quote act and section for the undertake and counteract Powell v Moody with Davis v Schrogins (2006)

Sorry, rambled on a bit, but I hope that answers some of the points raised.

Sean Kinvarra

visual wrote: »

Ive seen garda follow a small convoy of cars stuck behind lane hogger in overtaking lane waiting for their opportunity to strike when one of drivers decides to undertake to make progress.

Unfortunately they didn't bother tackling the root cause and pull in the lane hogger driving below the speed limit and refusing to return to the driving lane.

......and also the root cause of a crash if the hogger changed back into driving lane without checking mirrors and hit the car in that lane.

Sean Kinvarra

visual wrote: »

Ive seen garda follow a small convoy of cars stuck behind lane hogger in overtaking lane waiting for their opportunity to strike when one of drivers decides to undertake to make progress.

Unfortunately they didn't bother tackling the root cause and pull in the lane hogger driving below the speed limit and refusing to return to the driving lane.

......and also the root cause of a crash if the hogger changed back into driving lane without checking mirrors and hit the car in that lane.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

CiniO wrote: »

Not really.
Example from few days ago.
I'm driving a bus on 2 lane motorway
.

The undertaking is a grey area however your actions were illegal
Buses may not drive in the outermost lane of a motorway.

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Buses may not drive in the outermost lane of a motorway.

In some jurisdictions.

Henry Ford III

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

How is it dangerous to undertake or pass on inside a vehicle that is 3 lanes to your right? You are talking a load of nonsense. I suppose this is none of mine or anyone else's business

And BTW it is NOT illegal in UK



by T.C » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:37 pm......

Continuing to assert that and quoting obscure blogs and articles isn't strengthening your argument.

What the law says and means - pass on the rhs with 3 specific exceptions - stands both here and in the UK, and there's no need to specifically say don't pass on the lhs. That's understood.

It doesn't matter how dangerous undertaking is or isn't - it's simply illegal. A parallel - If you were to drive a really fast car on say the M7 at 250kph and not make even the tiniest mistake nor inconvenience any other road user you could argue what you did wasn't dangerous. Still wouldn't make it legal though would it?

p.s. I found this on youtube. Is that you making the comments?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

In some jurisdictions.

Including this one
And if the other scenario didnt occur in this jurisdiction, then it is of no relevance at all.

keithclancy

Henry Ford III wrote: »

p.s. I found this on youtube. Is that you making the comments?

Illegal or whatever I would have done the same thing, what a pack of knobs. They shoot people in Germany for that kind of lane hogging :pac::pac::pac::pac:

creedp

keithclancy wrote: »

Illegal or whatever I would have done the same thing, what a pack of knobs. They shoot people in Germany for that kind of lane hogging :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Good point and I think while people might protest (a bit too loudly at time your Honour) that its illegal to undertake if they were presented with a similar circumstance they might actually decide to undertake rather than indefinitley follow a gob****e hogging the RH lane of a motorway/dualcarrigeway. But anyway on with the discussion ...........

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

And if the other scenario didnt occur in this jurisdiction, then it is of no relevance at all.

CiniO's bus story is irrelevant to the question of whether passing on the left is legal in Ireland - but that was settled long ago when all the relevant law was posted.

But it is relevant to the discussion of whether it is safe or should be legal. If passing on the left is safe and can be made legal, then there's no reason for slower vehicles to stay in the left lane: it's open season and we can all drive wherever we like at whatever speed we like.

Just like the M50 today.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

CiniO's bus story is irrelevant to the question of whether passing on the left is legal in Ireland - but that was settled long ago when all the relevant law was posted.

But it is relevant to the discussion of whether it is safe or should be legal. If passing on the left is safe and can be made legal, then there's no reason for slower vehicles to stay in the left lane: it's open season and we can all drive wherever we like at whatever speed we like.

Just like the M50 today.

Just like pretty much all of the motorway network.
I'd be all for implementing a "stay in your lane" policy like they have in the US.

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Just like pretty much all of the motorway network.

No, I find road manners improve enormously as soon as you pass the first tollgate out of Dublin. Folks using the tolled sections are mainly long-distance drivers who do serious miles and know what the f they are doing. The odd M50 escapee in the wrong lane gets a swift education.

Henry Ford III

Interesting.

http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-research/media-centre/news-archive/20474-motorists-worried-about-safety-on-smart-motorways

Specifically this bit.....

"- A third of respondents (thirty-two per cent) would support the legalising of undertaking on SMART motorways".

Henry Ford III

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

....I'd be all for implementing a "stay in your lane" policy like they have in the US.

What policy is that?

djimi

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Interesting.

http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-research/media-centre/news-archive/20474-motorists-worried-about-safety-on-smart-motorways

Specifically this bit.....

"- A third of respondents (thirty-two per cent) would support the legalising of undertaking on SMART motorways".

Id be fully in favour of it. Its not dangerous in the slightest, provided people observe properly when making lane changes. Making it legal should ensure that people expect cars coming up their left hand side.

K.Flyer

What is needed is clearer definition on passing and undertaking.
"Passing", being where a lane one driver catches up with a slower moving car that is in lane two or three, (irrespective of speeds, but not exceeding the speed limit), faster moving driver remains in lane one and proceeds to pass said slower driver.
IMO, nothing particularly wrong with that.

"Undertaking". where a driver catches up on a slower driver in the same lane and deliberately changes lanes to pass the slower car on the inside lane and then returns back to the original lane.
IMO, This is usually a more aggressive manoeuvre and should have the attention of the Garda. However it probably wouldn't have happened if the slower driver had moved into the driving lane.
In both scenarios the nub of the problem is the outer lane hogger.

Zubeneschamali

djimi wrote: »

Id be fully in favour of it.

Not me. If no-one keeps left and passes right, all our Motorways would be like the M50, and nobody is happy with that.

And really, most of our motorways are much better.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, I find road manners improve enormously as soon as you pass the first tollgate out of Dublin. Folks using the tolled sections are mainly long-distance drivers who do serious miles and know what the f they are doing. The odd M50 escapee in the wrong lane gets a swift education.

Ok, let me clarify what I meant
All motorways near-ish to Dublin (like for example the M/N7 past Newbridge inbound) are like that already. The m50 being the worst.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What policy is that?

A lot of states in the US have that policy.
Can't find a reference online though.
Edit: Except for this

Henry Ford III

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

A lot of states in the US have that policy.
Can't find a reference online though.
Edit: Except for this

Which ones?

I realise wiki can be innaccurate but.....

"Lane discipline and overtaking

Overtaking, usually called "passing", is legal on all four or more lane roads and on most two-lane roads with sufficient sight distance. On two-lane roads, one must pass to the left of the overtaken vehicle unless that vehicle is preparing to make a left turn, in which case the vehicle must be passed on the right. Passing on the left means that the overtaking vehicle must enter the oncoming lane. This should only be done in a legal passing zone, designated by either a dashed yellow centerline (indicating that passing is legal in both directions) or a solid line paired with a dashed line (indicating that passing is only legal for traffic adjacent to the broken line). A solid double yellow line indicated that passing is illegal in both directions. In some states, it is not against the law to overtake vehicles in the presence of solid yellow lines if it is safe to do so. For example, Vermont state law also allows passing across the double yellow line when no traffic is on the opposing side; however, one must pass quickly and return to the proper side.[2] However, this is unusual as most states have a ban on crossing a double yellow line except when turning, or when pedestrians, bicycles, or other obstructions in the road make it necessary. Overtaking another vehicle across a solid yellow line is usually considered a serious traffic violation in most states.[3]

On roads with four or more lanes (including divided highways), vehicles may pass to the left or to the right of slower vehicles as long as the maneuver can be completed safely. However, most states either suggest or require that through traffic stay to the right except to pass.[4] The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices includes several signage standards to inform drivers of proper lane discipline, including the "STAY RIGHT PASS LEFT" and "SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT" signs [5]".

dr.fuzzenstein

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

CiniO's bus story is irrelevant to the question of whether passing on the left is legal in Ireland - but that was settled long ago when all the relevant law was posted.

But it is relevant to the discussion of whether it is safe or should be legal. If passing on the left is safe and can be made legal, then there's no reason for slower vehicles to stay in the left lane: it's open season and we can all drive wherever we like at whatever speed we like.

Just like the M50 today.

Agreed, at least now we have a chance that most vehicles will keep left most of the time, but if there was a pick your lane free for all, all the knobheads would be sitting in all the lanes all the time and you'd have to weave left and right or just be stuck behind a wall of knobs driving at 60 km/h beside each other, blocking everyone.
And said knobs usually don't check their mirrors when moving lanes, so accidents would quadruple if drive on left was abandoned in favour of drive where you want at what speed you want. This is Ireland, it would immediately turn into a giant pisstake fest.

CiniO

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

The undertaking is a grey area however your actions were illegal
Buses may not drive in the outermost lane of a motorway.

You are wrong with this one Cleverland Hot Pocket.
There is no law in this country prohibiting buses to use outermost lanes on motorways.
If you think otherwise, please quote the relevant law.

RootX

CiniO wrote: »

You are wrong with this one Cleverland Hot Pocket.
There is no law in this country prohibiting buses to use outermost lanes on motorways.
If you think otherwise, please quote the relevant law.

"Do not use the outside lane if you are driving:
• a goods vehicle with a design gross weight of more than 3,500 kilogrammes
such as a lorry or heavy goods vehicle (HGV);
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than eight passengers;
such as a bus; or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan"

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/motorway_driving.pdf

We can argue all day whether it's law or whether anybody gives a f*ck though

Cleveland Hot Pocket

CiniO wrote: »

You are wrong with this one Cleverland Hot Pocket.
There is no law in this country prohibiting buses to use outermost lanes on motorways.
If you think otherwise, please quote the relevant law.

Please see below Cinio
You are wrong.

So, you have been driving illegally for how long now, using the outside lane with a bus?

RootX wrote: »

"Do not use the outside lane if you are driving:
• a goods vehicle with a design gross weight of more than 3,500 kilogrammes
such as a lorry or heavy goods vehicle (HGV);
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than eight passengers;
such as a bus; or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan"

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/motorway_driving.pdf

We can argue all day whether it's law or whether anybody gives a f*ck though

keithclancy

CiniO wrote: »

You are wrong with this one Cleverland Hot Pocket.
There is no law in this country prohibiting buses to use outermost lanes on motorways.
If you think otherwise, please quote the relevant law.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0074.html

The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No. 182 of 1997 ) are amended by substituting for Regulation 33(1)(d) the following:

“(d) drive a vehicle of a class for which an ordinary speed limit of not more than 90 kilometres per hour is prescribed by regulations under sections 3 and 4 of the Road Traffic Act, 2004 in the traffic lane nearest the right hand edge of a carriageway having more than one traffic lane except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane or lanes is or are for the time being closed to traffic.”

Amended to:

• restricting Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) from driving in the outside lane of a motorway except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane or lanes is or are being closed to traffic.

So that means it applies to HGVs now and not Buses ?

Also I find the rules of the road takes AGES to get updated ... took them a long time to change the section on using the motorway and warning triangles.

RootX

Fresh data
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is an offense.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

keithclancy wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0074.html



Amended to:



So that means it applies to HGVs now and not Buses ?

Also I find the rules of the road takes AGES to get updated ... took them a long time to change the section on using the motorway and warning triangles.

Is that not just for all carriageways?
There's a specific rule for motorways prohibiting all category C and D from using the outermost lane.

Also, if you check the penalty points statistics on the RSA website which are updated monthly and narrow it down to "Driver Offences" in Dublin City Council area in May 2013 you will note that in that area alone 45 points in total (between on the spots and court convictions) were issued for "Breach of motorway outside lane driving rule".

Zubeneschamali

RootX wrote: »

Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is an offense.

So CiniO's bus is grand.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

RootX wrote: »

Fresh data
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is an offense.

A bus's ordinary speed limit is 80 kmh

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/roads_and_safety/road_traffic_speed_limits_in_ireland.html

Ordinary speed limits

Certain vehicles in Ireland (specifically vehicles that are intended or adapted for the carriage of people, vehicles greater than a certain weight and vehicles that are drawing trailers) are subject to different speed limits than those outlined above.

• Single and double deck buses and coaches (carrying standing passengers) - 65 km/h
• Single and double deck buses and coaches (with accommodation for more than 8 passengers but does not carry standing passengers)
  - Motorways and dual carriageways - 100 km/h
  - Other roads - 80 km/h
• Towing Vehicles - 80 km/h
• Trucks (with a design gross weight of more than 3,500kg)
  - Motorways - 90 km/h (since 1 April 2012)
  - Other roads - 80 km/h

keithclancy

RootX wrote: »

Fresh data
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is an offense.

Driving a vehicle on a motorway against the flow of traffic ... 2 points and an 80 euro fine.

So its the same penalty as speeding ... lol

What a batsh*t crazy country ... :pac::pac:

CiniO

keithclancy wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0074.html



Amended to:



So that means it applies to HGVs now and not Buses ?

Yes - that's exactly the case.
It applies to HGVs, but not to buses.
It also applies to any vehicle towing trailer (including buses).

Also I find the rules of the road takes AGES to get updated ... took them a long time to change the section on using the motorway and warning triangles.

Looks like they don't want to update it.
Initially both buses and trucks were limited to 80km/h.
In April 2009 (if I remember correctly) speed limit for buses on motorways was raised to 100km/h.
Since then buses are not prohibited from using outermost lane on motorways (so it's over 5 years new - but RSA still don't realise this was the case, and keep publishing incorrect info).

In 2012 speed limit for HGVs was raised to 90km/h on motorways, and law prohibiting use of most-right lane of motorways was also amended to suit 90km/h limit. However this didn't change anything in relation to buses.

See this thread from few years ago.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056570682

CiniO

RootX wrote: »

"Do not use the outside lane if you are driving:
• a goods vehicle with a design gross weight of more than 3,500 kilogrammes
such as a lorry or heavy goods vehicle (HGV);
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than eight passengers;
such as a bus; or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan"

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/motorway_driving.pdf

We can argue all day whether it's law or whether anybody gives a f*ck though

This information on RSA website is incorrect.

CiniO

RootX wrote: »

Fresh data
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is an offense.

This is not up to date either.
Currect law prohibits using vehicle subject to ordinary speed limit of 90km/h on most-right lane of motorways.

3. The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No. 182 of 1997 ) are amended by substituting for Regulation 33(1)(d) the following:

“(d) drive a vehicle of a class for which an ordinary speed limit of not more than 90 kilometres per hour is prescribed by regulations under sections 3 and 4 of the Road Traffic Act, 2004 in the traffic lane nearest the right hand edge of a carriageway having more than one traffic lane except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane or lanes is or are for the time being closed to traffic.”

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0074.html

However it still has no bearing on buses.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

CiniO wrote: »

This is not up to date either.
Currect law prohibits using vehicle subject to ordinary speed limit of 90km/h on most-right lane of motorways.

so what about the below that you have conveniently ignored

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Is that not just for all carriageways?
There's a specific rule for motorways prohibiting all category C and D from using the outermost lane.

Also, if you check the penalty points statistics on the RSA website which are updated monthly and narrow it down to "Driver Offences" in Dublin City Council area in May 2013 you will note that in that area alone 45 points in total (between on the spots and court convictions) were issued for "Breach of motorway outside lane driving rule".

RootX

The first RSA link I quoted suggests driving HGV and Buses on the outside lane is an offense.

The table with the penalty points that went into effect last Friday no longer refers to buses but to vehicles with restricted speed, limited to 80 kmh.

My understanding now, based on the citizensinformation link is that buses with no standing passengers are limited to 100kmh on motorways, therefore they can use the outside lane.

CiniO

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Please see below Cinio
You are wrong.

So, you have been driving illegally for how long now, using the outside lane with a bus?

No I haven't.
And it's you who is wrong.
Start looking up properly for your information before saying someone else is wrong.
You base your opinions on data which is incorrect.

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

A bus's ordinary speed limit is 80 kmh

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/roads_and_safety/road_traffic_speed_limits_in_ireland.html

Ordinary speed limits

Certain vehicles in Ireland (specifically vehicles that are intended or adapted for the carriage of people, vehicles greater than a certain weight and vehicles that are drawing trailers) are subject to different speed limits than those outlined above.

• Single and double deck buses and coaches (carrying standing passengers) - 65 km/h
• Single and double deck buses and coaches (with accommodation for more than 8 passengers but does not carry standing passengers)
  - Motorways and dual carriageways - 100 km/h
  - Other roads - 80 km/h
• Towing Vehicles - 80 km/h
• Trucks (with a design gross weight of more than 3,500kg)
  - Motorways - 90 km/h (since 1 April 2012)
  - Other roads - 80 km/h

As you can see in what you quoted - it's 100km/h on motorways for buses.

CiniO

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

so what about the below that you have conveniently ignored

I don't understand this point tbh.
Completely no relevance to buses or am I missing something?

mackerski

CiniO wrote: »

This information on RSA website is incorrect.

I think I'll print that and frame it.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

CiniO wrote: »

No I haven't.
And it's you who is wrong.
Start looking up properly for your information before saying someone else is wrong.
You base your opinions on data which is incorrect.

Like you did?
You made a statement without looking up anything or providing any links.
Then requested anyone who disagreed to have to prove you wrong.

CiniO wrote: »

You are wrong with this one Cleverland Hot Pocket.
There is no law in this country prohibiting buses to use outermost lanes on motorways.
If you think otherwise, please quote the relevant law.

CiniO wrote: »

As you can see in what you quoted - it's 100km/h on motorways for buses.

Ordinary speed limit = NOT on motorway.
Motorway is not "ordinary" speed limit.


You and the couple of other "I hate Irish everything" and "know it all" posters that are like you in this forum really are irritating.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

CiniO wrote: »

I don't understand this point tbh.
Completely no relevance to buses or am I missing something?

You're missing a lot.