Horrific Footage of Homeless Schizophrenic beaten by cops

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I've seen the state he was left in, heard the audio and seen the pool of blood. The DA mentions how one of the officers kneed him twice in the head when he was on the ground with another cop on top of him.

See now you're in a quandry, if you don't accept what the DA said then you're no better than the rest of us[.

That's right you didn't see any of that on the video. F**k me.. the DA said it? Must be gods gospel so, a DA would never overegg the pudding.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

That's right you didn't see any of that on the video. F**k me.. the DA said it? Must be gods gospel so, a DA would never overegg the pudding.

You're right, he's only letting the case happen because of moral outrage. When the cops are shown in court to have done nothing wrong it'll boost his re-election chances massively, I'm sure he's taken it all into account, lie about what the cops did, let them get off and get swept back in with the support of police.

tallus

I wouldn't go there for a holiday. Absolute animals.

Dyr

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

They had managed to sit on him, indicates that they would have been well able to get him into handcuffs from there, don't you agree?

No I wouldn't, and it shows that your ideas are notional tbh, if they'd managed to get him turned on his face with his hands behind him he would probably still be alive.

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

.....at the moment I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from, or throwing out red herrings.

It is quite possible - and it happens on a regular basis - for staff in secure institutions to deal with violent patients. They use force. They do not, however, ending up killing them the vast majority of times they have to do so. This is because they use methods and a level of force appropriate to the situation.

So you accept that even in a controlled environment dedicated to the care of those inflicted with mental health conditions a person can be subject to force which may result in their death. But somehow you think that police who encounter this on the street should be better able to handle the situatio?

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Eeeek. Funny comment given you were questioning another posters knowledge of such.

Surely for the above to be accurate you need to know when someone is going to commit suicide?

It's not as if the occur in common area's in front of staff.

It's not too hard to diagnose suicidal tendancies. It's often overtly stated.

woodoo

Scumbag police officers. America has no business accusing other countries of human rights abuses until they deal adequately with their lawless police force.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Bambi wrote: »

That's right you didn't see any of that on the video. F**k me.. the DA said it? Must be gods gospel so, a DA would never overegg the pudding.

Your posts seem quite idiotic.

He was sitting down minding his own business, then the cops show up, he is excessively handled by the cops which resulted in his death.

He incurred broken ribs, fractured facial bones, he bled out on the ground, ended up on life support and then died.

One scrawney guy does NOT need to pinned down by 5 or so cops to manage to put cuffs on him.

Appropriate force was NOT used in this instance, if it was, the guy would not be dead.

Obviously you know better than a DA and a judge, sure let them go, they "worked within their boundaries".

You DO NOT understand the use of force.

karma_

benwavner wrote: »

Your posts seem quite idiotic.

He was sitting down minding his own business, then the cops show up, he is excessively handled by the cops which resulted in his death.

He incurred broken ribs, fractured facial bones, he bled out on the ground, ended up on life support and then died.

One scrawney guy does NOT need to pinned down by 5 or so cops to manage to put cuffs on him.

Appropriate force was NOT used in this instance, if it was, the guy would not be dead.

Obviously you know better than a DA and a judge, sure let them go, they "worked within their boundaries".

You DO NOT understand the use of force.

That poster has a history of posting views which are of questionable morality, better just ignored.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

karma_ wrote: »

That poster has a history of posting views which are of questionable morality, better just ignored.

Good call. I better not provide the bait so!

Logical Fallacy

MagicSean wrote: »

It's not too hard to diagnose suicidal tendancies. It's often overtly stated.

Once again, you are not really stating anything here. Is it your roll for the day to just make really obvious points with no real connection to anything?

You dodged the part about where suicides will occur and i didn't even mention the fact that most patient suicides don't even occur within the facilities themselves.

But anyway, lets not let the actual subject matter of the thread get in the way of making massively obvious statements and then pretend like we are somehow enlightened and on the cusp of understanding for having done so.

Let me try.

100% of murders would be avoidable if people were immortal, ergo, the victim in this case would not have died.

Fun.

AskMyChocolate

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Hopefully, it may generate enough public outrage,anger and revulsion to put pressure on the judge to hand down proper and adequate sentences in the event of conviction, than may have been handed down otherwise.... although I wouldn't hold my breath.

El Weirdo wrote: »

No. Just no.

Do you really think it's a good idea that judges be influenced by the general public? Think about it.

Sorry chief. I think you may have inferred something from my (poorly worded) post that I wasn't implying.

What I was implying, is that law enforcement officers are often treated more leniently than they should be by judges, and justice in these cases is not served, in the same way as it would be in the case of a civilian.

I don't think judges should be influenced by either the public or the police dept., one way or the other, hence my use of "proper and adequate sentences in the event of conviction".

Hope that clears that up.

MagicSean

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Once again, you are not really stating anything here. Is it your roll for the day to just make really obvious points with no real connection to anything?

You dodged the part about where suicides will occur and i didn't even mention the fact that most patient suicides don't even occur within the facilities themselves.

But anyway, lets not let the actual subject matter of the thread get in the way of making massively obvious statements and then pretend like we are somehow enlightened and on the cusp of understanding for having done so.

Let me try.

100% of murders would be avoidable if people were immortal, ergo, the victim in this case would not have died.

Fun.

Your confusion is understandable. You latched onto a conversational exchange already in progress.

CoachTO

Have to say some of the ignorance and generalisations in this thread are shocking. What happened to the homeless is horrific and hopefully those cops who did it get thrown away for a long time but not all cops in the US are scumbags.

I spend a lot of time over there and have friends that are cops in both big cities small cities and arsehole of nowhere towns and most if not all of them were shocked by the vid when they saw it and disgusted fellow officers once again put all US cops in bad light. Every Police force in the world has a scumbag element including our own Gardai. And some don't know the difference between staying behind the line and toeing the law themselves or crossing it and bending the law to suit themselves.

Go Tobban

The cop repeatedly beats the guy over the head with his torch at 19:26. That is excessive force, without a shadow of a doubt. Scumbags

iamstop

It's for reasons like this that Ice T wrong and recorded a tracked called Cop Killer, with Bodycount, which was later banned.
He is not anti cop, he is anti cops like these.

Nodin

So thats your angle.....me own fault for giving you the benefit of the doubt, I suppose.

MagicSean wrote: »

So you accept that even in a controlled environment dedicated to the care of those inflicted with mental health conditions a person can be subject to force which may result in their death.
.

A shallow, pathetic, intellectually dishonest effort by you there. Nice one. Comparing accidents that happen when the best intentions are evident to incidents where only the worst appear to be on show......bit like comparing a crash due to faulty breaks and sombody driving full speed down a pedestrianised road - 'Well, they're both traffic accidents...'

MagicSean wrote: »

But somehow you think that police who encounter this on the street should be better able to handle the situation?
.

I'll go out on limb and say six to seven cops should be able to take a mentally ill and not particularily violent person in without either (a) beating him to a pulp or (b) beating him so badly he dies.

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

...........But somehow you think that police who encounter this on the street should be better able to handle the situatio?

.

.....are police not trained to get people into cuffs and under control?

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

.....are police not trained to get people into cuffs and under control?

When is the last time you tried to restrain a manic person? all the technique in the world can't help against someone who has no off switch.

Chorcai

Go Tobban wrote: »

The cop repeatedly beats the guy over the head with his torch at 19:26. That is excessive force, without a shadow of a doubt. Scumbags

Plus the size of them, you can hear how the life is being pressed out of him, lost count on how many times he was saying I cant breath.

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

When is the last time you tried to restrain a manic person? all the technique in the world can't help against someone who has no off switch.

Are you going to try to switch to the general and answer questings by asking rhetorical ones now? That's nice.

Funny you bring up the concept of "no off switch" , because he seemed to have an "O fuck" switch..." when he backed off from them at 15.40. Given he's the one dead, after being tased 4 times (approx) and given a severe hiding by a number of cops, I think its perhaps some other parties that lack an "off switch".

Now - are or are not police trained how to control and cuff a prisoner?

Dyr

benwavner wrote: »

Your posts seem quite idiotic.

He was sitting down minding his own business, then the cops show up, he is excessively handled by the cops which resulted in his death.

He incurred broken ribs, fractured facial bones, he bled out on the ground, ended up on life support and then died.

One scrawney guy does NOT need to pinned down by 5 or so cops to manage to put cuffs on him.

Appropriate force was NOT used in this instance, if it was, the guy would not be dead.

Obviously you know better than a DA and a judge, sure let them go, they "worked within their boundaries".

You DO NOT understand the use of force.

Your posts appear quite smelly, see what I did there bud. :rolleyes:

Presumably you have experience of restraining people who are having a psychotic episode or are in the middle of a PCP induced rage. I havent but I've restrained people on the deck once or twice and its tough. This scrawney guy took about 5 blasts from a tazer and kept going, that should tell you what you need to know about how easily he was going to be restrained.


The court case will tell if they're guilty of anything or not but moral outrage based on that video? gimme a break.

Chorcai

MagicSean wrote: »

When is the last time you tried to restrain a manic person? all the technique in the world can't help against someone who has no off switch.

Did you watch the video at all ? :rolleyes:

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

Are you going to try to switch to the general and answer questings by asking rhetorical ones now? That's nice.

Funny you bring up the concept of "no off switch" , because he seemed to have an "O fuck" switch..." when he backed off from them at 15.40. Given he's the one dead, after being tased 4 times (approx) and given a severe hiding by a number of cops, I think its perhaps some other parties that lack an "off switch".

Now - are or are not police trained how to control and cuff a prisoner?

I'm focusing on your comments about force being used in mental hospitals which you so casually threw in for no reason.

I'm sure these cops were trained in the best methods to restrain a person. Maybe they even followed their training and it was the techniques that were flawed. I'm sure the court will decide that.

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

....... This scrawney guy took about 5 blasts from a tazer and kept going, that should tell you what you need to know about how easily he was going to be restrained.

.......

Yeah, he kept on being on the ground, they kept on beating him.....an epic struggle.

MagicSean

Chorcai wrote: »

Did you watch the video at all ? :rolleyes:

Yes. did you listen to it?

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm focusing on your comments about force being used in mental hospitals which you so casually threw in for no reason.
.

No, I casually pointed out the fact that mentally ill people are restrained using force on a regular basis, without ending up being either dead or virtually unrecognisable. The reason I mentioned it was because some genius was giving "non-compliance" as an excuse for the level of violence.

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm sure these cops were trained in the best methods to restrain a person.
.

They were? Why didn't they use them?

We might differ on "best", by the way. In my idea of "best", the mentally ill aren't battered to a pulp.

MagicSean wrote: »

Maybe they even followed their training and it was the techniques that were flawed. I'm sure the court will decide that.

You were sure they were trained in the best methods a sentence ago.

Chorcai

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes. did you listen to it?

He ran once from the tubby cop, then the rest of his "manic" episode was nothing but him shouting "I can't breath, Daddy help me, stop, I can't breath" all the while 4 fat cops put all their weight on him and tazer the ****ing **** out him beat him to death.

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

No, I casually pointed out the fact that mentally ill people are restrained using force on a regular basis, without ending up being either dead or virtually unrecognisable. The reason I mentioned it was because some genius was giving "non-compliance" as an excuse for the level of violence.

No I think you actually said that we don't have people dying every day from it. But neirhter do we have people dying everyday from police brutality.

Nodin wrote: »

They were? Why didn't they use them?

How can you tell if they did or not? Do you know them?

Nodin wrote: »

We might differ on "best", by the way. In my idea of "best", the mentally ill aren't battered to a pulp.

Best is the most effective.

Nodin wrote: »

You were sure they were trained in the best methods a sentence ago.

Yes but wether they used them or not is up to the courts.

MagicSean

Chorcai wrote: »

He ran once from the tubby cop, then the rest of his "manic" episode was nothing but him shouting "I can't breath, Daddy help me, stop, I can't breath" all the while 4 fat cops put all their weight on him and tazer the ****ing **** out him beat him to death.

They repeatedly told him to do the same thing over and over. i would take this to mean he was not doing it.

Dyr

Nodin wrote: »

Are you going to try to switch to the general and answer questings by asking rhetorical ones now? That's nice.

Funny you bring up the concept of "no off switch" , because he seemed to have an "O fuck" switch..." when he backed off from them at 15.40. Given he's the one dead, after being tased 4 times (approx) and given a severe hiding by a number of cops, I think its perhaps some other parties that lack an "off switch".

Now - are or are not police trained how to control and cuff a prisoner?

Oh Nodin, Lets just explore the red herring whataboutery of your mental facility analogy. Take look at your comparison, see those words "secure" and "closed? They'd be fairly big hints as to the massive difference in circumstances between the two. In a facility you'll know the patient, his mental state, his medical history such as the presence of Hep or AIDS plus you'll be fairly certain they are'nt off their faces on crack or PCP and don't have access to a weapon.

I had a fairly long talk once with a guy who spent decades working in corrections with mental cases and his experience was that they will be left alone if they flip out so long as they don't endanger themselves or others. Even then its a dedicated suited up tactical team equipped with restraining boards etc who'll go in to do the job.

He had loads of examples of skinny little guys on PCP who could hold off tons of cops and then just die from the elevated body temperature that their freak out caused. He'd seen guys literally take all the flesh of their hands by pulling it through a cuff. So yeah, I take the hes just a little line with a pinch of salt.

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

Oh Nodin, Lets just explore the red herring whataboutery of your mental facility .......hes just a little line with a pinch of salt.

...whats any of that guff to do with the fact that (a) people are restrained all the time without ending up dead or battered to a pulp and (b) the specific case here, where we have the video of the guy in question.

KamiKazeKitten

Bambi wrote: »

No I wouldn't, and it shows that your ideas are notional tbh, if they'd managed to get him turned on his face with his hands behind him he would probably still be alive.

I don't really care if you think my ideas are notional or not tbh. Are you honestly telling me cops trained in how to subdue people wouldn't have been able to control this guy?

Bambi wrote: »

He had loads of examples of skinny little guys on PCP who could hold off tons of cops and then just die from the elevated body temperature that their freak out caused. He'd seen guys literally take all the flesh of their hands by pulling it through a cuff. So yeah, I take the hes just a little line with a pinch of salt.

And do we see this guy doing any of that in the video? So explain to me what any of that has to do with this case.

Fromthetrees

CiaranC wrote: »

The guy wasnt beaten to within an inch of his life, he was beaten to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas


Decades of society frowning upon any questioning of law enforcement has resulted in Police being untouchable over there. A police force is a neccessary evil and should be answerable to the people it is supposed to protect, that is not the case in the US. Its going the same way elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

ancientoracle

Bambi wrote: »

In a facility you'll know the patient, his mental state, his medical history such as the presence of Hep or AIDS plus you'll be fairly certain they are'nt off their faces on crack or PCP and don't have access to a weapon.

Are you trying to say that the cops would have had any idea if the guy had been on PCP or had AIDS?

Because if I was wary of a homeless man I was about to beat had AIDS, I wouldn't want to be spraying his blood all over a public pavement, not to mention my own hands.

Seriously, you're posts lead me to believe that you have the same kind of power issues as the cops in the video. If you honestly can't admit that they went way overboard with their treatment of the homeless man, then frankly, yr an idiot.

Chuck Stone

MagicSean wrote: »

When is the last time you tried to restrain a manic person? all the technique in the world can't help against someone who has no off switch.

Who wouldn't struggle with two hefty fucks, like those two appear to be, sitting on you compressing your chest and literally squeezing and beating the life out of you?

If a person, two people, tasked with that type of job cannot effectively restrain a struggling person without killing them then they are obviously not fit for purpose.

MagicSean wrote: »

It's a very unfortunate incident for all involved but far from a minless beating that it's been described as.

Unfortunate?

Those two are up in front of a judge for good reason - they subjected a vulnerable man to extreme brutality.

WTF?

Dyr

Nodin wrote: »

...whats any of that guff to do with the fact that (a) people are restrained all the time without ending up dead or battered to a pulp and (b) the specific case here, where we have the video of the guy in question.

People are restrained all the time in far more favourable circumstances in a secure environment? Is that what your on about? Its a poor comparison you need to just move onto the next whatabout analogy.

People are tazed all the time, sometimes it can be fatal. People are shot all the time and sometimes they don't die like they're supposed to. Do you think there are any certainties when it comes to use of force?

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

No I think you actually said that we don't have people dying every day from it. But neirhter do we have people dying everyday from police brutality.

...which given the actions of the cops in the video and some of the attitudes expressed on here is a wonder in itself.

MagicSean wrote: »

How can you tell if they did or not? Do you know them?.

The dead guy and his battered corpse.

MagicSean wrote: »

Best is the most effective.

By which such lights we could wonder why they just didn't have somebody control the head, another the torso and let the third pop a round or three in his legs. Great stuff.

At any rate, by the ratio of cops to grounded mental patient it would seem they failed the "effectiveness" test. By my 'don't kill them' standard anyway.

Chorcai

MagicSean wrote: »

They repeatedly told him to do the same thing over and over. i would take this to mean he was not doing it.

He sure did put up a fight, what with the cop beating the crap out of his face with the flashlight or the repeated knee to ribs, hell even go to the start of the video and you hear the cop giving him stupid directions let alone when they were on top of him.

brandon_flowers

Bambi, you have the biggest shovel I have ever seen in a thread on boards.ie. Keep digging.

Seriously.

Dyr

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

I don't really care if you think my ideas are notional or not tbh. Are you honestly telling me cops trained in how to subdue people wouldn't have been able to control this guy?



And do we see this guy doing any of that in the video? So explain to me what any of that has to do with this case.

Why yes , yes I am telling you that cops might not be able to handle some people, there's tons of precedent for it. So now that I've told you that, you show me where in that video they exceeded their use of force matrix? Fourth time of asking. It should be easy peesy.

I see a skinny guy managing to resist a half dozen cops, stay on his back and take multiple tazers shots. You'll also hear a cop stating that he's on something. I'm guessing that this guy might have actually been on something :eek:

tallus

Bambi wrote: »

something. I'm guessing that this guy might have actually been on something :eek:

Apparently toxicology reports were negative.

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

People are restrained all the time in far more favourable circumstances in a secure environment? Is that what your on about? Its a poor comparison you need to just move onto the next whatabout analogy.

You aren't very good at this, are you?

I'm not saying "whatabout". I'm stating that - as a fact - people are removed and moved against their wishes without being beaten so badlly, or being beaten to death. Not only does that occur in mental institutions, it happens in bars, pubs, clubs and shops and it happens all the time.

Bambi wrote: »

People are tazed all the time, sometimes it can be fatal. People are shot all the time and sometimes they don't die like they're supposed to. Do you think there are any certainties when it comes to use of force?

Certainties? - the more you hit them, the more chance you have of fucking them up. Add into that going for specific areas, a few people going in hard simultaneously, implements....its going to end badly.

Was yer man attacking the cops? Nope, he was running. He was unarmed. He hadn't even a pair of shoes on. There's nothing at all in the video to justify the level of violence used.

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

Why yes , yes I am telling you that cops might not be able to handle some people, there's tons of precedent for it. So now that I've told you that, you show me where in that video they exceeded their use of force matrix? Fourth time of asking. It should be easy peesy.

I see a skinny guy managing to resist a half dozen cops, stay on his back and take multiple tazers shots. You'll also hear a cop stating that he's on something. I'm guessing that this guy might have actually been on something :eek:

.....dear jesus help us.

Do please guide us to the "use of force matrix" employed by this specific police department.

Dyr

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Bambi, you have the biggest shovel I have ever seen in a thread on boards.ie. Keep digging.

Seriously.

I'm dealing in fact my good fellow, other posters are dealing in emotion. Right is right regardless of numbers.

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

I'm dealing in fact my good fellow,

You'll produce that "force matrix" you were on about then.

Bambi wrote: »

Right is right regardless of numbers.

He never mentioned numbers. Good to know what your motivation is though.

brandon_flowers

Bambi wrote: »

I'm dealing in fact my good fellow, other posters are dealing in emotion. Right is right regardless of numbers.

Where are you right? Two cops have been charged with in connection with this mans murder. MURDER... MURDER do you not get it??

They murdered him collectively. In the same court of law that these cops serve. I am not using emotion. I do not care if this man is dead, I do not care if these cops ever go to prison. But one of them is charged with murder, therefore the cop is in the wrong. Nobody in any civil state is allowed murder another person.

CiaranC

Bambi wrote: »

I'm dealing in fact my good fellow, other posters are dealing in emotion. Right is right regardless of numbers.

I kinda hope you are trolling. If not it goes a long way to explaining why these cops can do what they like when we have people saying a video of a man viciously beaten to death by police is no big deal.

Dyr

Nodin wrote: »

.....dear jesus help us.

Do please guide us to the "use of force matrix" employed by this specific police department.

You're the one throwing the accusations around so I'm assuming that you should have a handle on what they are in this case. Or that you at least know the difference between things like noncompliance, resistance and assault.

So yeah, nodin so us where this skinny fella was assaulting the coppers, as opposed to resisting as opposed to complying I can't see what he's doing in the the same way i cant see them smacking him in the head with a torch or crushing his larynx

Johro

Bambi wrote: »

I'm dealing in fact my good fellow, other posters are dealing in emotion. Right is right regardless of numbers.

Except you couldn't be more wrong.
It's pretty obvious to everyone else that excessive force was used, to put it mildly. To put it factually, they battered a vulnerable person to death.

MagicSean

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who wouldn't struggle with two hefty fucks, like those two appear to be, sitting on you compressing your chest and literally squeezing and beating the life out of you?

It's a progressive cycle. He tries to struggle they use more force, he struggles harder, they use more force.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If a person, two people, tasked with that type of job cannot effectively restrain a struggling person without killing them then they are obviously not fit for purpose.

It's not as easy as you see on the TV

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Unfortunate?

Those two are up in front of a judge for good reason - they subjected a vulnerable man to extreme brutality.

WTF?

You don't consider that unfortunate?

Nodin wrote: »

The dead guy and his battered corpse.

That doesn't prove that they didn't do what they were trained to.

Nodin wrote: »

At any rate, by the ratio of cops to grounded mental patient it would seem they failed the "effectiveness" test. By my 'don't kill them' standard anyway.

The most effective doesn't work 100%. Even pepper spray only works about 95% of the time.