South County GC Closed

shamco

Gambino wrote: »

Buster; I have no allegiance to the Board but in what way exactly was the club "run so bad"? Did the Board cause the debt they inherited?, the recession?, the over-supply of clubs trawling for members?, the NAMA owned clubs selling golf at rock bottom prices?

And even if they did run it badly, how exactly does witholding vital cash from OUR club help anything? Was this intended to "punish" the Board? Well that worked. What did you think was going to happen?

Pedro/Stinky - I know there were genuine cases. There were also chancers who could well afford it. And it didn't start this year. Do you know how many didn't pay (in part or in full) last year? Do you know how many of them were looking for another deferral this year? How long is that supposed to continue?

And as for their "loyal" friends who showed such solidarity in refusing to pay - well I hope the "genuine cases" show their appreciation for sacrificing their golf club for them. Let me know where you are going so I can be sure to avoid it.

As a shareholder who paid up levies, loans and subs for the last ten years what i would like to know is who were the members who got discounts or were allowed to offset their loans etc and why?.

Russman

Enough with the bitterness Gambino, its terrible for South County and the many, many good members they had. I thought they had turned the corner. I genuinely do feel for them.

If there was another reason(s) for members not paying, other than not being able to afford to, then clearly there was a problem that needed to be addressed. What was the board's solution to these issues ? Should the members have just sucked it up because someone said so ?

Mods, apologies for any implied speculation, I'm just making a point re the nature of committees - but maybe, like many committees in a lot of clubs they developed a sense of "us and them" with regard to the members and wouldn't engage. I don't know.

The harsh reality is that there are too many golf clubs in Ireland and particularly Dublin. Every club is secretly hoping their neighbours go bust before they do and that they can pick up 50 or 100 new members which will secure their own future.

South County aren't the first nor will they be the last club to go wallop. Personally, I hope my own club take in 50 or 100 (or more) of ye.

link_2007

Gambino wrote: »

Bonnamassa - No need to miss anything (except the malcontents who have hopefully gone for good.) The course is open and available. Go on up.

Russman - if you read back over this thread you will see plenty of evidence that some people "refused" to pay. Whatever their reason - and I frankly don't give a sh*t if it was real or contrived - that is what killed the club. Not the Board, not the landlords. They did.

Gambino - it seems that if they did refuse to pay they made the correct decision.

I'm not quite sure how you think an additional 10-20 (admittedly a complete guess) subs would have done anything other than paper over the cracks for another few weeks. As Redzah has quite clearly pointed out, the club was in a horrifically bad financial position that was only getting worse and he managed to ascertain this from a review of the abridged accounts (which disclose as little as possible) - god only knows what the full books and records would reveal.

I can understand your disappointment, we're all feeling the same way, but trying to place even part of the blame at the feet of the members who didn't pay this years sub is very unfair in my opinion.

JALAS

Bonnamassa wrote: »

R25 wrote: »

Hi Guys, I was a member since 2009. I am absolutely gutted with the club closing. It was like a 2nd home. The members there were great to play alongside, staff very friendly and Ramie was a top man. He always made you feel very welcome. I feel for the staff who have now lost their jobs and the members who lost so much. I will look to join a new club as I want to keep playing competitively each week. I'd love to join a club where a few of the SC members are going so we could still enjoy some good banter whilst playing. Feel free to post where you're considering joining. Hope to cross paths again !! Cheers

I'm with R25 in this regard - I'll miss the course, the comraderie and Raymie's warm, friendly welcome each morning. I feel for all the staff who have lost far more that us members. I'd also like if, through these posts, ex-members might share their thoughts on where they're considering joining as I would like to keep up the many contacts made over the years.

Hi R25 a good many of "past members" are hoping to get together and try and go to another club we will be holding a meeting for anyone who is interested will post a message as soon as we can get numbers and organise it. Just to be plain about this as a matter of respect to all us members who paid up their subs I will not be stepping foot in Lisheen Golf Club again because the name South County golf Club is the members and that is ours so the Kavanaghs come try and sugar it up anyway they can but this stinks if they where not being paid the rent on the land why did they not approach the Mens Committee or Captain and inform ?????

Redzah

Russman wrote: »

In fairness, and I'm not auditor bashing here, nor am I defending the board in any way, but an auditors report can mean something or it can mean nothing. Hindsight is always 20:20 vision. Remember the banks all had clean bills of health !:D

A paper never refused ink, and projections / budgets with regard to membership numbers etc are not really worth anything in these times.

I hasten to add that I have no connection in any way, shape or form with South County.

My point is that to sign the audit report the auditors would have had to look at the most up to date financial position of the entity which would most likely be the March 2012 management accounts. Furthermore, the future projections to at least April 2013 (12 months) would have had to be stress tested and determined to be reasonable. The auditors could then form an opinion that the club could continue to trade for 12 months from the date of the audit report (12th April) which they did by preparing the accounts on a going concern basis but less than a month later it goes bust. Even though they included an emphasis of matter on continued support of members and banks, the accounts suggest that this was not enough as they club was f'ed.

IMO it was probably a mixture of misleading info from board coupled by professional negligence from the auditors.

In relation to the banks or one bank in particular, the directors executed transactions around the year end date moving loans off the balance sheet which was not picked up in the auditors journals testing which given the scale of the banks transactions is understandable. Then the banks directors did not disclose all balances held during the year in their individual directors certs so basically lied to the auditors. Given the scale of the banks daily transactions and the way in which the directors executed these transactions it was very difficult to uncover. South county is a golf club with limited transactions and is worlds away from this. The auditors should be able to tell you the reason for all movements on balances to the nearest €1k to be honest.

eagleleyes

Gambino wrote: »

Bonnamassa - No need to miss anything (except the malcontents who have hopefully gone for good.) The course is open and available. Go on up.

Russman - if you read back over this thread you will see plenty of evidence that some people "refused" to pay. Whatever their reason - and I frankly don't give a sh*t if it was real or contrived - that is what killed the club. Not the Board, not the landlords. They did.

Ok Gambino, as I mentioned yesterday Im relatively new to SC so the ins and outs of the politics have eluded me until now. I spoke to a member this morning, long serving member who paid his sub up front this year and is more than disgruntled. He informed me, and get this, for a club that was obviously in great financial difficulty, that the club spent €20,000 on trees last year that DIED and intended to replace them this year. Also, tell me this, why would a club in so much trouble, allow their Captain, who pays no sub as part of his office, a budget of €3000 plus expenses???? As i said before, it is too easy for you to lay blame at the feet of the wrong people. 100 people, not 5, not 10, but ONE HUNDRED must have had a bloody good reason for leaving - and with your blinkered attitude Im not surprised! As an Ambassador for the Club, you're doing a lousy job. Also, could you ever man up and answer TheGen's question, are you Ronan, Tom or John? Methinks Gambino doth protest too much! Please let me know your name in a private message - I'd hate to ever stand a tee box with a bigot like you.

carman2011

Redzah wrote: »

In relation to the banks or one bank in particular, the directors executed transactions around the year end date moving loans off the balance sheet which was not picked up in the auditors journals testing which given the scale of the banks transactions is understandable. Then the banks directors did not disclose all balances held during the year in their individual directors certs so basically lied to the auditors. Given the scale of the banks daily transactions and the way in which the directors executed these transactions it was very difficult to uncover. South county is a golf club with limited transactions and is worlds away from this. The auditors should be able to tell you the reason for all movements on balances to the nearest €1k to be honest.

this makes no sense at all !
what loans were removed from the balance sheet approaching year end, and how would you know this ?

vikingdub

bustercherry wrote: »

Fixed that for you. It's apparent there are reasons they didn't renew but it's certainly not the fault of them that the club was run so bad.

A number of them simply could not afford to renew.

vikingdub

Pedro D wrote: »

A number of members found themselves unable to afford the subs and offered genuine alternatives to the board. All were rejected and a number of then walked. Their friends at the club then refused to renew because of how the board treated individuals who have supported the club from the outset. The board carried on and told us that all was good but as soon as the april subs were paid they appear to have shut up shop without any egm. It not going to be easy to recover from this

A number of those who were unable to pay received a letter, in recent weeks, from the Board threatening them with debt collectors if they did not pay up.

Redzah

carman2011 wrote: »

this makes no sense at all !
what loans were removed from the balance sheet approaching year end, and how would you know this ?

There were directors loans that were not disclosed in the annual accounts as the directors fudged their directors certs and in 2009 there were further controversial transactions which had the effect of misrepresenting the end-of-year accounts of Anglo. Anglo-Irish Bank lent €4bn to Irish Life & Permanent (IL&P) for 1 day by way of inter-bank loan, and a subsidiary of Irish Life placed a deposit of a similar amount with Anglo, which was recorded as a customer deposit thus increasing their cash balances in the year end accounts. Its more complex than this but seeing as my original post made no sense at all to you then you may not have the aptitude to understand the more complex version .

I know this for 2 reasons 1. Its freely available public knowledge 2. My profession.

We should prob get back to South County as the banks, their audit and their collapse are worlds away from the simple cash of south county running out've cash to fund day to day activities.

Russman

Redzah wrote: »

My point is that to sign the audit report the auditors would have had to look at the most up to date financial position of the entity which would most likely be the March 2012 management accounts. Furthermore, the future projections to at least April 2013 (12 months) would have had to be stress tested and determined to be reasonable. The auditors could then form an opinion that the club could continue to trade for 12 months from the date of the audit report (12th April) which they did by preparing the accounts on a going concern basis but less than a month later it goes bust. Even though they included an emphasis of matter on continued support of members and banks, the accounts suggest that this was not enough as they club was f'ed.

IMO it was probably a mixture of misleading info from board coupled by professional negligence from the auditors.

.

I know the point you're making alright, and you're correct.
However in real life its relatively unusual do much more than cursory testing on projections, usually a caveat is included that gets them off the hook. Given the troubled financial history of SC you could argue they should have been a bit more thorough, but at the same time, what do you do if someone says "we reckon we'll get in 100 new members next year and not lose any current ones, sure look at all the advertising we're doing" ?
Obviously the ultimate indicator is the bank balance and how anyone could suggest they had enough money to keep the lights on is beyond me, given what they had in the bank.

Anyway, I'm not getting into an accounting discussion here, I passed my finals too long ago for that craic

R25

JALAS wrote: »

Hi R25 a good many of "past members" are hoping to get together and try and go to another club we will be holding a meeting for anyone who is interested will post a message as soon as we can get numbers and organise it. Just to be plain about this as a matter of respect to all us members who paid up their subs I will not be stepping foot in Lisheen Golf Club again because the name South County golf Club is the members and that is ours so the Kavanaghs come try and sugar it up anyway they can but this stinks if they where not being paid the rent on the land why did they not approach the Mens Committee or Captain and inform ?????

Cheers JALAS, that would be great.

Russman

vikingdub wrote: »

A number of those who were unable to pay received a letter, in recent weeks, from the Board threatening them with debt collectors if they did not pay up.

Way to generate good will

link_2007

I could be wrong Redzah but I think carman thought you were talking about South County.

carman2011

Redzah wrote: »

carman2011 wrote: »

this makes no sense at all !
what loans were removed from the balance sheet approaching year end, and how would you know this ?

There were directors loans that were not disclosed in the annual accounts as the directors fudged their directors certs and in 2009 there were further controversial transactions which had the effect of misrepresenting the end-of-year accounts of Anglo. Anglo-Irish Bank lent €4bn to Irish Life & Permanent (IL&P) for 1 day by way of inter-bank loan, and a subsidiary of Irish Life placed a deposit of a similar amount with Anglo, which was recorded as a customer deposit thus increasing their cash balances in the year end accounts. Its more complex than this but seeing as my original post made no sense at all to you then you may not have the aptitude to understand the more complex version .

I know this for 2 reasons 1. Its freely available public knowledge 2. My profession.

We should prob get back to South County as the banks, their audit and their collapse are worlds away from the simple cash of south county running out've cash to fund day to day activities.

Sorry misread 1st post , thought u were talking about the club hiding loans !

Redzah

vikingdub wrote: »

A number of those who were unable to pay received a letter, in recent weeks, from the Board threatening them with debt collectors if they did not pay up.

Thats fair enough as the board were in a difficult position on this one, they couldn't afford to lose them as they needed their subs to survive. Another club in a better financial position would've cancelled their membership but South County did not appear have this luxury. Also, completely understandable from the members point of view who didn't want to throw more into a sinking ship. Its just a shame for all involved really.

Redzah

carman2011 wrote: »

Sorry misread 1st post , thought u were talking about the club hiding loans !

No worries, there is no indication of any of this going on in south county. Furthermore, it'd be close to impossible to hide as I am doubtful that they would have a high volume of transactions to hide this from the auditors. Apologies for my sarcastic response, i'm easily wound up at times, its my biggest character flaw, at least i'm aware of it though

downthemiddle

Russman wrote: »

The harsh reality is that there are too many golf clubs in Ireland and particularly Dublin. Every club is secretly hoping their neighbours go bust before they do and that they can pick up 50 or 100 new members which will secure their own future.

South County aren't the first nor will they be the last club to go wallop.

Unfortunately it was inevitable that a high profile club would go under this year. Most clubs are struggling with membership. Two other clubs in the general vicinity of South County have also taken a major hit in membership this year. Another, reportedly, is in even greater debt that South County.
We are at the stage where most clubs now know what their membership renewal figures are. Some of them will make very grim reading. There are very few clubs where membership is stable and even fewer where it is growing.
Clubs need to be more creative in their thinking. Their business plans need to reflect the changing economic climate.
It appears that the board in South County should have been much more proactive in dealing with this issue. If it had been tackled 18 months ago the members would have had the opportunity to rally around their club. Whether they could have saved the club we will never know. However with more transparency the obvious and understandable anger that the ordinary members are experiencing would not be as great if they had been given the opportunity to save their club.

Redzah

Russman wrote: »

I know the point you're making alright, and you're correct.
However in real life its relatively unusual do much more than cursory testing on projections, usually a caveat is included that gets them off the hook. Given the troubled financial history of SC you could argue they should have been a bit more thorough, but at the same time, what do you do if someone says "we reckon we'll get in 100 new members next year and not lose any current ones, sure look at all the advertising we're doing" ?
Obviously the ultimate indicator is the bank balance and how anyone could suggest they had enough money to keep the lights on is beyond me, given what they had in the bank.

Anyway, I'm not getting into an accounting discussion here, I passed my finals too long ago for that craic

Ya fair enough, whatever about projections being misleading which is ture, but the current financial situation would have had to be analysed on 12 April which means the March 2012 management accounts as part of a sub events review, to last only a month longer after this review suggests either these accounts were fudged or there was professional negligence on behalf of the auditors as the place only lasted a month after this sign off. There's no way any auditor should accept a company director saying that we'll get 100 new members in the next month to get us through May as part of the projections.

I agree that the company had absolutely no cash or liquid assets to cover any costs. The fact that the subs (although as suggested not all were paid) in january only kept the place afloat till May speaks volumes about how poor a financial situation they were in.

Russman

downthemiddle wrote: »

We are at the stage where most clubs now know what their membership renewal figures are. Some of them will make very grim reading.

Exactly right, clubs are now realising that the 20, 50, 100 etc etc members who haven't paid by now are unlikely to at this stage and having to adjust to this new reality.

Whyner

I'm still in shock. Feel like a good awl cry.....

Russman

Redzah wrote: »

the March 2012 management accounts

I wonder were these even prepared

link_2007

Russman wrote: »

I wonder were these even prepared

I doubt it but even without them the auditor should have at the very least reviewed the most recent bank statements which you would imagine would have raised a red flag? I agree with your earlier point about the post year end review consisting of the club saying "yea big membership drive, loads of advertising, we'll be fine" but the accounts were signed off almost a quarter of the way through the year and this increased subscription money clearly wasn't there.

Redzah

Russman wrote: »

I wonder were these even prepared

Ya i know and i have my doubts which makes me wonder what comfort the auditors got that the company was able to continue trading for 12 months at the date of the audit report.

fennetec

For any members on here there is a meeting of all members arranged for Monday Night, at Avon Ri Lakeshore Resort Hotel in Blessington. Any members requiring confirmation can phone me at 086-8219900.

link_2007

What time?

stinkypoo

Gambino wrote: »

I have absolutely no connection with the Board. I am a regular member who bought a share, paid my loan, paid his sub (in full and on time) every year and encouraged people to join. I also brought guests to opens, used the bar and restaurant and attended social events and meetings when I could. In return I got a golf club. I thought that was the deal.

I carry no torch for those who presided over the club's demise. What (seems to have) happened on Tuesday night (wiping records, new locks, removing machinery) sounds questionable at best and malicious at worst. I wish the new "owners" well in rescuing what they can and I will do what I can.

Amongst all the venom and accusations on this board, I have yet to see a single alternative strategy proposed that would have helped the club survive and grow. Some people seem to be in denial about their role. Whatever objections or criticisms they had, they cannot evade the fact that the club went out of business because it ran out of cash and they contributed to that situation by failing to pay their subs. If they had behaved differently we would have a golf club today and ten years of effort would not be down the drain.

South County's demise is a shot in the arm for other struggling clubs, in that they can get some new members from us. I hear that some are already getting ready to offer deals. The reality of the situation was that South County was hoping that some others would fail first and that we would benefit in the same way. The club's strategy was all about that and all it needed was for enough of the members to stick with it for long enough. A burden shared etc.

Unfortunately some were so engrossed in short term opportunism and personal fueds that they didn't see what was coming down the tracks. Every club - golf or otherwise - has its share of such types. We just seem to have had more than our fair share.

You say that you have no connection with the board yet you can quote a strategy that states South county were hoping some other club would go under before them and that they could mop up members. How do you know this? Why wasnt that shared with the members and get everyone to pull together.?
if that was the main strategy being adopted by the board it says a lot about the brains that were running the show. I just hope you were speculating.
another question. 60 members left in January. Why. was it too dear. Did they come in on a 2011 deal and when asked for increased subs they left. What happens next ,they offer better discounts for 2012 and the cycle starts again. Doomed to failure.
With regard to the shareholders, many saw that it wasnt value for money or they couldnt afford it and left before the deck of cards came down.
You talk about pulling together. Never happenened in South County since day one. No one was told what was going on and there has never been anyone in South County who has been able to have everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.
The people to feel sorry for are the workers, raymie and those who paid up front this year
Where you one of them????
Good luck to those loyal South County members who have found new clubs but I hope I dont run into you.

fennetec

link_2007 wrote: »

What time?

8pm in the main function room. Bring your wallet !!

tonyka

fennetec wrote: »

For any members on here there is a meeting of all members arranged for Monday Night, at Avon Ri Lakeshore Resort Hotel in Blessington. Any members requiring confirmation can phone me at 086-8219900.

is this for shareholders ¿?

Whyner

he said any members