South County GC Closed

Gambino

Redzah wrote: »

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Oh redzah you've called me out. Well done you. I'm a shameless autocrat who has no concern for the masses, only the need to self publicise my own agenda and to basically wind up those who have been supposedly wronged.

Maybe I should start taking the piss and pretending to be a concerned member? Maybe I should BS my way into some position of relevance on this forum? Maybe I should lie?

I think the Sheet summed it up perfectly to be honest.

Wowsers u have a short fuse, you're almost in Tones69's league (sorry Tonesy). I'm not saying I agree with all that Gambino's saying or the way he said it but he has contributed significantly to this thread and provided an arguement from a different perspective and information to the thread. Surely as somebody who works in the media, you can appreciate that there are numerous sides to any story.

I'm not 'calling you out', to coin a phrase . But what i am saying is that your contribution to this thread could be sshheen as follows;

'I work in the media and if i don't know about it then no media source will be there.'

'I work in the media and i've decided that your post was funny.'

'I work in the media and well done you for calling me out.'

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

When someone who works in the media relies on the voices in his head as his best source, he might consider playing more golf.

Gambino

DODris wrote: »

Just received this as i am sure many others have. I have not obviously attached the word document. This meeting is also taking place in the city west hotel. It is starting at 12. Hopefully the members whom have paid full subs for the year will be able to get something back from SCGC.

"Attached is a notice of the creditors meeting of the above named company which will take place on 31st May. If you cannot attend in person you are urged to return your proxy as per the instructions on the notice. The Board"

I only joined the club this year and let me tell you that gathering the money to pay the subs was not easy I could have went to many other clubs for less.

I really enjoyed my time up there even tho it was a short 2 months, most everyone I met or played with were lovely people. I do on the other hand think it is a discrace that they took money from members when people (THE BOARD) knew that the club was in trouble.

I stood in front of the GM of SC in Feburary and asked before i paid my money in full !!! was there any financial difficulty with the club to which I was told absolutly not this is a triving club. !!!

I spoke with Pat Kavanagh and he informed me that he told the club months previous that if he was not paid or an arrangement was not reached that he would take back his land. (SIMPLE AS THAT)

To be perfectly frank I do not believe anyone in relation to this club not the landlords not the board. Some of the stuff we have been told you just could not make it up.

At this stage I just want my hard earned cash back and let me get on finding a new club and playing the game I love (GOLF).

Although I have lost as much as you - much more if you include the share and loan - somehow your experience sounds even worse. I have met a lot of new members over the past year and made a point of welcoming them and congratulating them on their choice. In every case they were happy with the course and I think in almost all cases with the members. I feel embarrassed and guilty by the sense of betrayal you must feel.

Earlier in this thread there were some posts about the importance of doing the homework and checking the books and being brutally realistic, that was always going to be a more revealing than any answer you would get from the GM in sales mode. To be fair to him, at that time the new member interest was pretty good and I can understand why he felt confident. He did not know then what was going to happen with the people the club thought it could rely on.

I can't blame you for washing your hands of the place, no matter what revival plan is put together. Far easier to join another club and move on. It shows what a tough job the next incarnation will have to restore credibility and confidence. I'll stick with it to see where it goes-I have an eleven year investment to consider. You got burnt, but at least it was quick.

IITYWYBMAD

Redzah wrote: »

Wowsers u have a short fuse, you're almost in Tones69's league (sorry Tonesy). I'm not saying I agree with all that Gambino's saying or the way he said it but he has contributed significantly to this thread and provided an arguement from a different perspective and information to the thread. Surely as somebody who works in the media, you can appreciate that there are numerous sides to any story.

I'm not 'calling you out', to coin a phrase . But what i am saying is that your contribution to this thread could be seen as follows;

'I work in the media and if i don't know about it then no media source will be there.'

'I work in the media and i've decided that your post was funny.'

'I work in the media and well done you for calling me out.'

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

My point is/was that Gambino has managed to wind up a lot, if not all of the members of SCGC on this forum. Slow clap for him. Well done. My initial contribution to this thread was to rebut his ascertion with regards to the media, something I have experience in.

I'm not a reporter. I've worked in this industry for years. I'm also a forum user for years. I recognise a troll when I see one. As a member of a golf club, I take an active interest in my club. I'd know, for example, the procedures involved in appointing a liquidator etc...something I would never bul**** on.

I've no axe to grind. I'm a firm believer that if it snorts and lives in a sty, it's probably a pig. I also think this forum has lost a lot of credibility thru misinformation, lies and BS. Allowing a soapbox for people to push their own agenda is wrong IMO. My 2c. I'll reiterate, the Sheet called it correctly.

DODris

Gambino wrote: »

Although I have lost as much as you - much more if you include the share and loan - somehow your experience sounds even worse. I have met a lot of new members over the past year and made a point of welcoming them and congratulating them on their choice. In every case they were happy with the course and I think in almost all cases with the members. I feel embarrassed and guilty by the sense of betrayal you must feel.

Earlier in this thread there were some posts about the importance of doing the homework and checking the books and being brutally realistic, that was always going to be a more revealing than any answer you would get from the GM in sales mode. To be fair to him, at that time the new member interest was pretty good and I can understand why he felt confident. He did not know then what was going to happen with the people the club thought it could rely on.

I can't blame you for washing your hands of the place, no matter what revival plan is put together. Far easier to join another club and move on. It shows what a tough job the next incarnation will have to restore credibility and confidence. I'll stick with it to see where it goes-I have an eleven year investment to consider. You got burnt, but at least it was quick.

I really do understand that you would have lost more than me if you were a shareholder but what you have on me is 11 years of Golf in SC under your belt. I have had 2 months for money that was hard got in the current times we live in. I as like a lot of others in SC who joined this year do not have another €1.5k + to spend on a joining a new club. I departed from a club last year that I also lost money on. I ONLY WANT TO PLAY GOLF have a bite to eat, enjoy the company of other golfers and make new friends. All of this was happening in SC and then this.

I feel that nobody in this whole saga has been truthful I understand that maybe I should have looked at the books and bigger fool me for believing the GM, But who in joining a new club and wanting to make a good impression would have said OK ive taken on board what you said now lets see the accounts for this year (NO-ONE).

As ive said above I just want to play golf. I want to support a club but I feel the SC really does not deserve that level of support with the way they have treated me and many others like me.

Gambino

DODris wrote: »

Gambino wrote: »

Although I have lost as much as you - much more if you include the share and loan - somehow your experience sounds even worse. I have met a lot of new members over the past year and made a point of welcoming them and congratulating them on their choice. In every case they were happy with the course and I think in almost all cases with the members. I feel embarrassed and guilty by the sense of betrayal you must feel.

Earlier in this thread there were some posts about the importance of doing the homework and checking the books and being brutally realistic, that was always going to be a more revealing than any answer you would get from the GM in sales mode. To be fair to him, at that time the new member interest was pretty good and I can understand why he felt confident. He did not know then what was going to happen with the people the club thought it could rely on.

I can't blame you for washing your hands of the place, no matter what revival plan is put together. Far easier to join another club and move on. It shows what a tough job the next incarnation will have to restore credibility and confidence. I'll stick with it to see where it goes-I have an eleven year investment to consider. You got burnt, but at least it was quick.

I really do understand that you would have lost more than me if you were a shareholder but what you have on me is 11 years of Golf in SC under your belt. I have had 2 months for money that was hard got in the current times we live in. I as like a lot of others in SC who joined this year do not have another €1.5k + to spend on a joining a new club. I departed from a club last year that I also lost money on. I ONLY WANT TO PLAY GOLF have a bite to eat, enjoy the company of other golfers and make new friends. All of this was happening in SC and then this.

I feel that nobody in this whole saga has been truthful I understand that maybe I should have looked at the books and bigger fool me for believing the GM, But who in joining a new club and wanting to make a good impression would have said OK ive taken on board what you said now lets see the accounts for this year (NO-ONE).

As ive said above I just want to play golf. I want to support a club but I feel the SC really does not deserve that level of support with the way they have treated me and many others like me.

Well I got my ten years of playing for an annual sub. Like you, I got short changed this year on that. In addition I paid big money for a share a year before it opened (I justified that on the basis that any club that was open at that time was asking an entry fee and at least a share offered some prospect of a return. Oh well on that.
Like most other members/shareholders I also forked out for a loan a few years back.
I got more opportunities to play than you, but adding it all up, my cost per round was pretty high.

fennetec

DODris wrote: »

Just received this as i am sure many others have. I have not obviously attached the word document. This meeting is also taking place in the city west hotel. It is starting at 12. Hopefully the members whom have paid full subs for the year will be able to get something back from SCGC.

"Attached is a notice of the creditors meeting of the above named company which will take place on 31st May. If you cannot attend in person you are urged to return your proxy as per the instructions on the notice. The Board"

I only joined the club this year and let me tell you that gathering the money to pay the subs was not easy I could have went to many other clubs for less.

I really enjoyed my time up there even tho it was a short 2 months, most everyone I met or played with were lovely people. I do on the other hand think it is a discrace that they took money from members when people (THE BOARD) knew that the club was in trouble.

I stood in front of the GM of SC in Feburary and asked before i paid my money in full !!! was there any financial difficulty with the club to which I was told absolutly not this is a triving club. !!!

I spoke with Pat Kavanagh and he informed me that he told the club months previous that if he was not paid or an arrangement was not reached that he would take back his land. (SIMPLE AS THAT)

To be perfectly frank I do not believe anyone in relation to this club not the landlords not the board. Some of the stuff we have been told you just could not make it up.

At this stage I just want my hard earned cash back and let me get on finding a new club and playing the game I love (GOLF).

Thanks, on the first issue there are many questions to be answered because until the company (South Dublin Golf Club 2004 Limited) are in liquidation nobody under the companies act (2003-2009) had the authority to take, remove, sell, or(in my own words) interfere with anything from a toothpick to a teapot belonging the company. The notice you now refer to came informing that a meeting of creditors would take place on 31st May. It was unsigned, it must be signed by a named person on behalf of the "board" or by a legal representative representing the company. Neither applied to the notification you or I received.

Secondly, and it is your input that helps here, I was in SDGC a week ago, I had brought guests. A "member" came in and asked the girl behind the bar to check his bar credit and after doing so (I have witness to this) he walked out with his friends cradling bottles of wine. There is nobody on this forum that has ever, ever gone to a golf club to take a loan of wine and in this case it was a blatant tip off to allow preferred gentlemen to get their bar credit back before the 6:21am "Mission is scrubbed text" . Incidently, while this was happening I was putting €200 on my club card to support the club.

As far as I am concerned, neither the club in the form of a sender of an email with an unsigned word doc implying what date the wind up of SDGC will take place, a landlord standing behind the counter in the eviction site that was Raymie Byrnes Pro shop, with, ironicaly a SDGC golf jumper on him, or anyone else will dictate to me when and what will happen unless they are absolutley 100% sure of their legal standing. Up to now, at least two parties are hitting around 15% of their legal obligations, two of them being obliged to ensure that under current law CCTV footage of the exchange of bar credit for wine is still on the CCTV system.

As far as proxy's are concerned with regard to 31st May, I have a number I can pass on for free to some of those who loaned 3K recently and can't gain admission tomorrow night by mere fact that I paid for junior memberships for young lads who got their GUI card and never got to hit a ball on the course. As the man behind the counter said today, while ironically wearing a SCGC jumper, shure what happened you, its like buying a new car and going out and crashing it - there is the mentality.

GreeBo

TBF I think some of you are not living in reality.
Did you honestly expect SCGC to give up and stop taking money of people? That would guarantee the club failed. Of course they kept taking in money, thats how a business works. They obviously ran out of time/money and so had to wind up, but expecting them to tell you "Oh yeah, we are in big trouble financially" as you look to join is just naive imho.

Sure it sucks if you lost cash and I myself would be fit to kill, but dont forget about reality please, otherwise this thread just turns into a ridiculous, childish moan and quite honestly, will be closed.

NaiveMelodies

Hey, can anyone tell me if its true South Countys still open to play for ten quid?

Gambino

fennetec wrote: »

DODris wrote: »

Just received this as i am sure many others have. I have not obviously attached the word document. This meeting is also taking place in the city west hotel. It is starting at 12. Hopefully the members whom have paid full subs for the year will be able to get something back from SCGC.

"Attached is a notice of the creditors meeting of the above named company which will take place on 31st May. If you cannot attend in person you are urged to return your proxy as per the instructions on the notice. The Board"

I only joined the club this year and let me tell you that gathering the money to pay the subs was not easy I could have went to many other clubs for less.

I really enjoyed my time up there even tho it was a short 2 months, most everyone I met or played with were lovely people. I do on the other hand think it is a discrace that they took money from members when people (THE BOARD) knew that the club was in trouble.

I stood in front of the GM of SC in Feburary and asked before i paid my money in full !!! was there any financial difficulty with the club to which I was told absolutly not this is a triving club. !!!

I spoke with Pat Kavanagh and he informed me that he told the club months previous that if he was not paid or an arrangement was not reached that he would take back his land. (SIMPLE AS THAT)

To be perfectly frank I do not believe anyone in relation to this club not the landlords not the board. Some of the stuff we have been told you just could not make it up.

At this stage I just want my hard earned cash back and let me get on finding a new club and playing the game I love (GOLF).

Thanks, on the first issue there are many questions to be answered because until the company (South Dublin Golf Club 2004 Limited) are in liquidation nobody under the companies act (2003-2009) had the authority to take, remove, sell, or(in my own words) interfere with anything from a toothpick to a teapot belonging the company. The notice you now refer to came informing that a meeting of creditors would take place on 31st May. It was unsigned, it must be signed by a named person on behalf of the "board" or by a legal representative representing the company. Neither applied to the notification you or I received.

Secondly, and it is your input that helps here, I was in SDGC a week ago, I had brought guests. A "member" came in and asked the girl behind the bar to check his bar credit and after doing so (I have witness to this) he walked out with his friends cradling bottles of wine. There is nobody on this forum that has ever, ever gone to a golf club to take a loan of wine and in this case it was a blatant tip off to allow preferred gentlemen to get their bar credit back before the 6:21am "Mission is scrubbed text" . Incidently, while this was happening I was putting €200 on my club card to support the club.

As far as I am concerned, neither the club in the form of a sender of an email with an unsigned word doc implying what date the wind up of SDGC will take place, a landlord standing behind the counter in the eviction site that was Raymie Byrnes Pro shop, with, ironicaly a SDGC golf jumper on him, or anyone else will dictate to me when and what will happen unless they are absolutley 100% sure of their legal standing. Up to now, at least two parties are hitting around 15% of their legal obligations, two of them being obliged to ensure that under current law CCTV footage of the exchange of bar credit for wine is still on the CCTV system.

As far as proxy's are concerned with regard to 31st May, I have a number I can pass on for free to some of those who loaned 3K recently and can't gain admission tomorrow night by mere fact that I paid for junior memberships for young lads who got their GUI card and never got to hit a ball on the course. As the man behind the counter said today, while ironically wearing a SCGC jumper, shure what happened you, its like buying a new car and going out and crashing it - there is the mentality.

Your story about the wine is troubling and should be explored. I would prefer if tomorrows meeting stuck to the future but the 31st should be an opportunity. I assume you can identify the member?.
It has been common practice for members to use up their unused credit in this way at the end of the year but not at the a start.
.
Your points about the legality or otherwise of certain actions may or may not be worth getting excited about. The landlord could probably argue that he was protecting an abandoned asset. I doubt he would lose that argument in court, even assuming you could find someone to take the case against him.
.
Based on the mood in this forum, it sounds like the meeting on the 31st will be somewhat acrimonious. Depending on what happens in the meantime, I might just leave you all to it that day. I have limited interest in flogging dead horses.

Gambino

only1stevo wrote: »

Hey, can anyone tell me if its true South Countys still open to play for ten quid?

It is open but I'm not sure if the €10 applies to everyone. Best you call to check.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

TBF I think some of you are not living in reality.
Did you honestly expect SCGC to give up and stop taking money of people? That would guarantee the club failed. Of course they kept taking in money, thats how a business works. They obviously ran out of time/money and so had to wind up, but expecting them to tell you "Oh yeah, we are in big trouble financially" as you look to join is just naive imho.

Sure it sucks if you lost cash and I myself would be fit to kill, but dont forget about reality please, otherwise this thread just turns into a ridiculous, childish moan and quite honestly, will be closed.

Exactly, financial troubles is part and parcel of golf clubs these days and its up to all members and potential members to do their homework before handing over the cash. If you eyeball the general manager before you hand over the cash and ask if they are in financial trouble and he says no, then you are naive for thinking he's going to break the stare and start crying saying 'we're fcuked'. No company/club or other form of business operates like this and while 1,600 is a lot of money, at least you got 4 months golf for it so in reality you lost closer to 1,066 which is a lot less than nearly every individual in the country has lost in some shape or form in the last 4/5 years.

FixdePitchmark

This is not a place to try be funny.


But are we now talking about wine ?:eek::o:p

We had a lad blaming women.

Lads not paying subs.

A lad from the media.

Somebody stealing the equipment in the middle of the night.


I swear this thread has been like a Ross O'Carrol Kelly book, mixed with Scooby Doo and Jefrey Archer.


From an outsider, i feel sorry that nice blokes lost money.

FixdePitchmark

Redzah wrote: »

Exactly, financial troubles is part and parcel of golf clubs these days and its up to all members and potential members to do their homework before handing over the cash. If you eyeball the general manager before you hand over the cash and ask if they are in financial trouble and he says no, then you are naive for thinking he's going to break the stare and start crying saying 'we're fcuked'. No company/club or other form of business operates like this and while 1,600 is a lot of money, at least you got 4 months golf for it so in reality you lost closer to 1,066 which is a lot less than nearly every individual in the country has lost in some shape or form in the last 4/5 years.

But plenty of companies run their business , where an ethical approach is a core of the business plan ?

Is honesty not an abiding principle of a golf club ?

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But plenty of companies run their business , where an ethical approach is a core of the business plan ?

Is honesty not an abiding principle of a golf club ?

Trying to keep the club afloat is hardly unethical.
When does a club decide to start being honest? If you are the very first person to pay your fees do you expect the club to say "btw, no one else has paid yet...if another 600 dont you will loose your money"
Can you honestly tell me if they said that you wouldnt just wait and let 599 people go before you?

Its the same with creditors when a business folds. If they dont keep taking the stock/loans/whatever right up until the day they fold then they just fold earlier. You cant pay everyone off and then fold...if you had the money to pay everyone in full all the time then you wouldnt be folding in the first place!


On an unrelated topic, Grange in Rathfarnham is open for new members in full and 6 day categories, PM if interested.

GreeBo

uberwolf wrote: »

25 staff @ 40k each. Not impossible to imagine a course, bar, restaurant, etc employing that many people/

Are/were the restaurant staff employees of the club or is catering outsourced like in most places?
Also I assume this 25 doesnt include the pro shop, Raymie would be on a retainer and pay his own staff.

Grange has 18 full time staff who are paid by the club.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Trying to keep the club afloat is hardly unethical.
When does a club decide to start being honest? If you are the very first person to pay your fees do you expect the club to say "btw, no one else has paid yet...if another 600 dont you will loose your money"
Can you honestly tell me if they said that you wouldnt just wait and let 599 people go before you?

Its the same with creditors when a business folds. If they dont keep taking the stock/loans/whatever right up until the day they fold then they just fold earlier. You cant pay everyone off and then fold...if you had the money to pay everyone in full all the time then you wouldnt be folding in the first place!


On an unrelated topic, Grange in Rathfarnham is open for new members in full and 6 day categories, PM if interested.

So what would be unethical in the case of a golf club.

So you can sort of try anything to stay afloat ?

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So what would be unethical in the case of a golf club.

So you can sort of try anything to stay afloat ?

Thats the point. They didnt "try anything" they just operated as normal until it became obvious that it wasnt going to work.

What do you think they should have done and when do you think they should have done it?

concradoc

chuckieamc wrote: »

I'm in. I gather from comments on here that there is a committee meeting tomorrow night?
In some potentially heartening news, I heard that concra wood in Monaghan closed last week for a similar issue and was open a few days later under new management.
Though the moving out of equipment is worrying....

At no time did Concrawood close for any financial or business reasons, only extremely bad weather.

FixdePitchmark

concradoc wrote: »

At no time did Concrawood close for any financial or business reasons, only extremely bad weather.

And New Management ?

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats the point. They didnt "try anything" they just operated as normal until it became obvious that it wasnt going to work.

What do you think they should have done and when do you think they should have done it?

So the only way to wind down a golf course is in the middle of the night ? When the Landlord closes the gate.

They knew they were in real problems, I guess they.

Reduced costs,
Reduced Wages,
Reduced Staff,
Held events to raise money,
Had meeting with members to explain problems,
Sent a letter to members.
Closed non profit parts,

Anyway , not my field. Is this the way things work.
You seem happy enough with the way it was all done ?

Golf course (Proceed with caution).

golfwallah

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So what would be unethical in the case of a golf club.

So you can sort of try anything to stay afloat ?

Attached link gives info on “Director's Duties When a Company is Facing Insolvency”: http://www.accountingnet.ie/law_regulation/Director_s_Duties.php

concradoc

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

And New Management ?

No new management, same Board of Directors as of 2011 AGM of plc.

FixdePitchmark

concradoc wrote: »

No new management, same Board of Directors as of 2011 AGM of plc.

So were did the New Management thing come from , made up ?

GreeBo

The middle of the night part has nothing to do with the how the club was run. It was no longer a club at that point. Some of you have taken issue with the club for accepting your money in the very recent past, Im merely pointing out that this is the reality of the world.

Id be pretty darn sure they already did cut costs, etc, etc. They reduced their loan payments right?
But you cant expect them to keep operating at a huge loss indefinitely, if they had announced to members that there was financial difficulty then no one would have paid anything...surely you see this is not a viable option?

GreeBo

golfwallah wrote: »

Attached link gives info on “Director's Duties When a Company is Facing Insolvency”: http://www.accountingnet.ie/law_regulation/Director_s_Duties.php

So is it a club or company? Who are the directors?

AldilaMan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So what would be unethical in the case of a golf club.

So you can sort of try anything to stay afloat ?

It's not really a question of ethics. I'm sure they were doing everything to stay afloat but the tipping edge can be a lack of cashflow of very small proportions if a bank decides to withdraw an overdraft facility (mere conjecture). A friend of mine's business folded recently although he had orders of €250,000 for equipment he was selling. The bank wouldn't extend credit because of the perceived risk in him ever getting paid for those orders. He had been struggling for some time with the credit crunch but he was still in business until the banks said no. If I was SC i would have collected as much annual subs from new members as this was the only possible lifeline. I don't believe the GM took an annual sub knowing it was going to close. He may have feared for his job and the future but I expect he was still hoping for the best.

GreeBo

Last pimp post.
For those interested in keeping a GUI handicap PM me for info on a pavilion category that has full playing rights on practice course/ground, restricted times on 18 hole course plus GUI handicap.

Might ease the pain over the summer a little and be easier than distance membership somewhere?

GreeBo

AldilaMan wrote: »

It's not really a question of ethics. I'm sure they were doing everything to stay afloat but the tipping edge can be a lack of cashflow of very small proportions if a bank decides to withdraw an overdraft facility (mere conjecture). A friend of mine's business folded recently although he had orders of €250,000 for equipment he was selling. The bank wouldn't extend credit because of the perceived risk in him ever getting paid for those orders. He had been struggling for some time with the credit crunch but he was still in business until the banks said no. If I was SC i would have collected as much annual subs from new members as this was the only possible lifeline. I don't believe the GM took an annual sub knowing it was going to close. He may have feared for his job and the future but I expect he was still hoping for the best.

Exactly. The bank (and in this case landowner) are king in this scenario.
Cash flow is a huge problem for clubs due to the seasonal impact of greenfees. Funding that overdraft is expensive.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Last pimp post.
For those interested in keeping a GUI handicap PM me for info on a pavilion category that has full playing rights on practice course/ground, restricted times on 18 hole course plus GUI handicap.

Might ease the pain over the summer a little and be easier than distance membership somewhere?

Pavilion , in this day and age on this thread is funny .

You may get out on the 18 (lol).

AldilaMan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Pavilion , in this day and age on this thread is funny .

You may get out on the 18 (lol).

On the drink again tonight I see