South County GC Closed

Gambino

GreeBo wrote: »

shamco wrote: »

Of course you are entitled to your opinon.When I say independent I'm presuming you are not a member of SCGC. You seem to pointing out all the negatives and have said nothing positive. There is no-one going into this under thesion that it will easy and I know what it costs to run a golf club having a member of several.

What positives should I be pointing out that havent already been pointed out several times?
If no one points out the negatives then its not reality.

This discussion has now become a forum for idle and uninformed speculation. Greebo,,a while back you threatened to close it if that was all that was happening. As you seem to now be engaged in it too, maybe you should close yourself down and let those working to save the club get on with it.

AldilaMan

Gambino wrote: »

Good meeting. Attractive offer from landlords. Committees will explore it further but looks like we will be back in business.
I think this forum has run its course. Bye all.

;)

Hacker111

can someone answer me a question...I'm not up to speed.... what happened to sizeable bank debt, was it secured by an insolvent asset less company that has been wound up (as land is in famers name)..... did bank get screwed and new "structure" starts a fresh (debt less) with a clean slate..... I doubt the bank lent to a company against a lease as only tangible security.... please clarify for me

moycullen14

Of course it's idle speculation but that doesn't mean it is not of some interest to a lot of non-involved people here.

The reality for a lot of golf courses in Ireland is that they can't continue in their current format/structure because of massive economic changes. We've seen it with the NAMA courses and SC is an example of a 'members' course that went wallop so it is instructive to see how it is going to rise from the ashes. For most of us not involved with SC, that's the interesting thing.

A number of things struck me about the structure/setup of SC.

1: What security was in place for the loans? And, how is it going to be realised by the creditors?
2: What is the legal status of clubs assets on land not owned by the club?
3: How are these assets (club house, course work, etc) protected if the lease on the land is broken?
4: How much land is involved?
5: Would the owner of the land be better off a) grazing sheep on it b) selling it and placing the cash on deposit? c) renting it out for agricultural use d) renting it out as a golf course.
6: What sort of return can the owner expect from running a golf course?

Water Rock in Cork seems to have a successful pay per play model that has worked through good and bad times. I'd be interested to see if the land owner gets a better return from it than, say, Midleton which is a owner run, members club, located a few miles up the road.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the members at SC all the best and it seems that you will have golf for the year for a reasonable outlay. As has been said, as long as you don't commit too much money up front, it's hard to see how you can go too far wrong.

This thread has been fascinating. It could be the basis for an MBA case study. Having followed it from the start, I almost feel like a member of SC!

k.p.h

IMO a golf course should always be run independent of adjacent services. Bar and Pro shop should be leased from club (although not possible in this case,at the moment) to business people interested in running the services.

If no one is interested in taking up the services they are obviously not viable, in which case the golf club should not consider taking them on.

Golf clubs should be primarily be interested in only one thing, upkeep of the course. It takes the income of a healthy membership to pay for maintenance at a good standard. But it's a good system..! With a nice well maintained course membership will always be decent and with members comes the potential to run side services at a decent profit.

As it stands the members of SC who intend to go on should be concerned about only course upkeep, it's vital for any prospect of success at in the new venture.

Good course brings members, members bring services..!

Snakey

Has there been any 'official' communication since Wednesday's meeting? I couldn't attend due to prior commitments and haven't heard anything since.

Where do we stand right now as members of what was The South County re playing rights, GUI etc?

shamco

Snakey wrote: »

Has there been any 'official' communication since Wednesday's meeting? I couldn't attend due to prior commitments and haven't heard anything since.

Where do we stand right now as members of what was The South County re playing rights, GUI etc?

The SC golf club is still in existence. Your handicap is still valid and maintained by the secretary (Away scores entered etc..) . The committee informed us that they will email as soon as possible regarding further developments.

ChewyLewy

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056643140?page=1#post_78731007

GreeBo

Gambino wrote: »

This discussion has now become a forum for idle and uninformed speculation. Greebo,,a while back you threatened to close it if that was all that was happening. As you seem to now be engaged in it too, maybe you should close yourself down and let those working to save the club get on with it.

Where did I do that?
I said the thread would be closed if people spread rumours and allegations about people or companies as this is a legal matter.

Also its "informed" speculation. Lots of us know whats involved in running a golf club.

A while ago you said you were leaving this thread, maybe you should do as you say?

Engaging in backseat moderating is a bannable offence. Please report posts you have a problem with and leave moderating to the moderators.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Where did I do that?
I said the thread would be closed if people spread rumours and allegations about people or companies as this is a legal matter.

Also its "informed" speculation. Lots of us know whats involved in running a golf club.

A while ago you said you were leaving this thread, maybe you should do as you say?

Engaging in backseat moderating is a bannable offence. Please report posts you have a problem with and leave moderating to the moderators.

In fairness Greenbo, if he reports your post, your hardly going to moderate yourself. i'd love to see it now Greenbo banned for 2 weeks posted by Greenbo.

In relation to south county, i reckon they'll keep a lot of the members on the new terms for the rest of the year as they are relatively cheap and risk free but once the new year comes the owners may go after a bit more in line with previous years and that's where numbers will drop and more trouble begins

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

In fairness Greenbo, if he reports your post, your hardly going to moderate yourself. i'd love to see it now Greenbo banned for 2 weeks posted by Greenbo.

In relation to south county, i reckon they'll keep a lot of the members on the new terms for the rest of the year as they are relatively cheap and risk free but once the new year comes the owners may go after a bit more in line with previous years and that's where numbers will drop and more trouble begins

Redzaph, Im not the only moderator so wouldnt have to moderate myself, but in any case, if my post needed to be moderated then I would, thats just the sorta guy I am Redzaph.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

Redzaph, Im not the only moderator so wouldnt have to moderate myself, but in any case, if my post needed to be moderated then I would, thats just the sorta guy I am Redzaph.

I dunno if robin has been a moderator long enough to take on the batman. Lol and no comment on the bold underlined part as you'd find a reason to ban me if i pointed out posts contrary to this belief.

Back to south county i suppose. Best of luck with the new club guys, if it was me i'd stick with it till the earlier of the end of the year or the end of the club and assess the situation then as u have now further risk attached to this now apart from a max €70 per month.

Blue for Ever

Lots of things still to be answered…. The bank’s security according to the company records is land folio 3840L and everything sitting on the Kavanagh’s land. It is up to the liquidator to decide how best the debts of the old company can be repaid. He will access what can be raised now or in the future through the sale of any assets of the company and based on this he will raise as much money as possible, pay back a proportion of the debts and the remainder of the debt will die with the company. In raising money he can sell any asset he wants (a tree, a teebox, a bar tap, a chair, etc.), he can also pursue the debtors of 418k on the accounts (is this outstanding subs?). Alternatively, he may decide to allow the members to use the facility with the view that he will be able to get them or the Kavanaghs to buy everything from him in the future. My advice is would be to keep the club together, as a club play your golf somewhere else (similar to the Hibernian Golf Club in the K-club) and let the owners, bank and liquidator sort out what is happening to the course in Brittas and if the course exists in a year or so, then move the club back. Don’t let the member’s club get stuck bailing out the company…



One final question, does the €150/70 per month include or exclude VAT? VAT is due on subscriptions to a privately run course!

Redzah

Blue for Ever wrote: »

Lots of things still to be answered…. The bank’s security according to the company records is land folio 3840L and everything sitting on the Kavanagh’s land. It is up to the liquidator to decide how best the debts of the old company can be repaid. He will access what can be raised now or in the future through the sale of any assets of the company and based on this he will raise as much money as possible, pay back a proportion of the debts and the remainder of the debt will die with the company. In raising money he can sell any asset he wants (a tree, a teebox, a bar tap, a chair, etc.), he can also pursue the debtors of 418k on the accounts (is this outstanding subs?). Alternatively, he may decide to allow the members to use the facility with the view that he will be able to get them or the Kavanaghs to buy everything from him in the future. My advice is would be to keep the club together, as a club play your golf somewhere else (similar to the Hibernian Golf Club in the K-club) and let the owners, bank and liquidator sort out what is happening to the course in Brittas and if the course exists in a year or so, then move the club back. Don’t let the member’s club get stuck bailing out the company…



One final question, does the €150/70 per month include or exclude VAT? VAT is due on subscriptions to a privately run course!

Firstly the loan sits in SC Prop Ltd. as security on the building and course.

The €418k debotrs balance sits in a different company SC 2004 Ltd. €397k of this balance is relating to cash advances given from SC 2004 to SC Prop so there is a corresponding liability on SC 2004 so it is not external and therefore he couldn't be chasing it as he'd be chasing himself for the cash. It'd be like a boards moderator moderating himself !!!

I'd imagine the €70/€150 includes VAT, you'll prob see it when u sign the direct debit form

frost53

:pac:

GreeBo wrote: »

Why exactly do you think I am supposed to be independent on this matter?
Its nothing to do with boards.ie, and even so, I am entitled to my opinions just as much as you are on here.


As for "getting over it"...:rolleyes:
Dont let reality stand in the way of your opinions there lads.

It seems that a lot of SC members are not aware of the costs involved in running a golf club and so I think its only right that they go into this with their eyes open.

Oh wise and sagacious one...why did we not consult thee first?

You're well and truly off the fence by now Greebo.... Hope we meet you in the Barton Cup

Russman

I really don't think there's anyone on here who wishes SCGC to fail, but, for me, the numbers don't stack up. With the choice out there nowadays (esp with NAMA clubs) there's little chance of attracting significant green fee & society income if the maintenance of the course is let slip out of necessity. Why go there when you can go up the road to a tulfarris or rathsallagh ?

No doubt there's a lot more to the story than meets the eye and I wish SCGC well but once liquidators and lawyers are involved I fear the worst.
Whether posters on a forum like this are positive, negative or whatever doesn't really matter, sure isn't that what debate is all about ?

oscar555

I've been following the thread since the news of the club closing was featured here, and whilst I've never been a member, I have played the course many times in the past.

Whilst there has been a variety of comments passed I wonder to my self if perhaps a larger point has been missed here?

This club has been in existence since 2004 with a substantial number of people buying shares to secure their membership, and yet in the last 12 months it would seem that 120 'shareholders' took the decision to leave the club that they had been a member of, and invested in. Whilst appreciating that people are understandedly upset at the events of the last week nobody has really questioned why these shareholders left the club they helped to create. How many left and joined other clubs? If so why? How many left for purely financial reasons? What efforts were made to assist them to stay? Did the deals on membership of recent times have any bearing on their decision? What responsibility if any does your Board bear in all of this? How pro active were they in trying to develop a club culture, or could their actions and attitudes be considered divisive?

My final thought is that surely the South County Golf Club is the membership itself - not the course, the clubhouse or the venue. The new owners proposal, however well intentioned, is surely designed to provide the large numbers of golfers needed to play and financially support his new club. The ex members of South County GC are that large group of players. So my final thought was - what stops you staying as club and negotiating playing rights at the new facility? This way you will not become part of any future possible failure and you can stay in control of your own destiny.

Wish you all well but I fear this maybe slightly more difficult than just carrying on under 'new owners' - sincerely hope I'm wrong though.

Konkers

Folks,

Not a member of SCGC but have spent the whole evening reading the thread cos I overheard a bunch of people expressing shock and awe at the comments made by some posters to the thread at the driving range in sandy ford this eve. The likes of alrite chief, fore rite etc should hang their heads in shame for making the comments they made re that man who was taken to hospital. U would certainly not be welcome at myclub.

Boards mods should ban these individuals. Don't reply. I've read enough.

btw best of luck to the remaining members. I hope it all works out.

Konkers

Mods u should remove the comments referred to. Family members or the individual may be reading them.

charlieIRL

frost53 wrote: »

:pac:

Oh wise and sagacious one...why did we not consult thee first?

You're well and truly off the fence by now Greebo.... Hope we meet you in the Barton Cup

Now now, manners.

carman2011

nice how a club comes together in tough times, after getting permission from the GUI to play in the pierce purcell today, currently with half the scores in, a last minute thrown today south county side, with no practice on the course currently lead on 361, one ahead of the hosts slade valley, and 9 ahead of the team in 3rd......

sodbuster77

carman2011 wrote: »

nice how a club comes together in tough times, after getting permission from the GUI to play in the pierce purcell today, currently with half the scores in, a last minute thrown today south county side, with no practice on the course currently lead on 361, one ahead of the hosts slade valley, and 9 ahead of the team in 3rd......

Well done guys.

carman2011

And we are through in 2nd out of the 18 teams, semi final vs milltown at 8am tomorrow.

ArielAtom

carman2011 wrote: »

And we are through in 2nd out of the 18 teams, semi final vs milltown at 8am tomorrow.

Congrats, great achievement under terrible circumstances

alie

What competition is it in milltown, best of luck

charlieIRL

Konkers wrote: »

Mods u should remove the comments referred to. Family members or the individual may be reading them.

Konkers, we'll do the moderating on this forum as we see fit. We do not need to be reminded of our duties

golfnut1

k.p.h wrote: »

IMO a golf course should always be run independent of adjacent services. Bar and Pro shop should be leased from club (although not possible in this case,at the moment) to business people interested in running the services.

If no one is interested in taking up the services they are obviously not viable, in which case the golf club should not consider taking them on.

Golf clubs should be primarily be interested in only one thing, upkeep of the course. It takes the income of a healthy membership to pay for maintenance at a good standard. But it's a good system..! With a nice well maintained course membership will always be decent and with members comes the potential to run side services at a decent profit.

As it stands the members of SC who intend to go on should be concerned about only course upkeep, it's vital for any prospect of success at in the new venture.

Good course brings members, members bring services..!

I would argue that the biggest cash cow for most clubs or at least necessary for survival are the societies. If you don't have a well maintained course and all the services bar, restaurant , showers and the likes and all at a competitive price you can't successfully tap into this vital market. In a lot of clubs the bar may be loss making but keeps the course profitable this is why many clubs have food and drink levies.
You can't have one without the other.
There are exceptions to the rule the European comes to mind but the society market doesn't seem to be top of their list. We will see if this changes over time.

ShriekingSheet

Absolutely delighted to hear about the SC Pierce Purcell team - fair play to them.

one ill cat

Unfortunately the PP team lost in the semis, still super effort by the lads all the same, wp.

Also, the ladies Challenge Cup team went out on Sunday & won their match so huge congrats to them!

Gambino

Drove past South County today. The course looked fantastic and in great condition. Obviously plenty of work going into it and good to see plenty of people out. I hope the naysayers aren't too dissapointed.

Looking forward to playing at the weekend.