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South County GC Closed
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No question the bunkers need work and the rough in between the small trees is too long and penal in places. In both cases its a matter of having the necessary equipment. The Kavanaghs have a bid in (tender) for some of the machines being sold off by the liquidator so hopefully that will be resolved soon and the course fully back to its splendid best.0
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BigChap1759 wrote: »Sorry but bunkers are designed to be played out of with the right technique - few things worse than bunkers with half an inch of sand then rock hard underneath - makes playing out of them a lottery as your club bounces off the hard stuff :mad:
agreed. I used to dread bunker shots but that was because they were so hard / lack of sand you might as well be playing off a path.
I actually played a high profile course earlier in the year and got a shock up through my club hitting out of a bunker it was that solid. Not much fun in that.0 -
No question the bunkers need work and the rough in between the small trees is too long and penal in places. In both cases its a matter of having the necessary equipment. The Kavanaghs have a bid in (tender) for some of the machines being sold off by the liquidator so hopefully that will be resolved soon and the course fully back to its splendid best.
Do you know what else the liquidator is selling?0 -
Nope. Presumably it is the Assets that were listed in the documents distributed at the Creditors meeting. The machinery was about all that had any "tradable" value. I take it from what Pat Kavanagh said at the weekend that a deal has been done on the clubhouse but I've no idea what it involved.Do you know what else the liquidator is selling?0 -
Unglika Norse wrote: »I don't see it as a big deal if the bunkers are " in bits". Bunkers are hazards, if there is grass and weeds in them so be it.
As for rough, so be it to, there are to many of these namby pamby golf courses with rough cut to an inch high.
Dont agree with that statement at all to be honest. You can hit a decent shot on and still end up in a bunker, unlucky bounce, gust of wind etc. I dont know what courses you play but any course that has weeds and grass in the bunkers is really poorly maintained.
Anyways, back on topic, as I said not all were unplayable and those that were had signage up so you got a free drop. We played lift rake and place in all bunkers and it was fine.0 -
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The great majority of those who paid their 2012 sub are staying and will play it by ear after this year. Its a reasonable assumption that those who have laid out subs in other clubs had not paid in SC. In which case they will be missed terribly.[/QUOTE]
I have read all these threads a few times now and I just want to point out something to you in particular. Your reasonable assumption that those who left had not paid their subs is about as wrong as most of the stuff you have been spouting on this forum. I for one paid a year in advance for myself. I paid a full years sub for another member in January and two weeks before the famous text I introduced a new member who paid his full sub at the bar.
I am one of those that has left and went to Beech Park and I am sorry that I will be missed terribly. However, I did not leave because I did not pay my sub and that allegation by you is as wild as the rest of what you have been spouting. To help you, just in case you are making a compilation of any factual reasons why members left, in my case, I left simply because of the information of what membership of the club would be like through your posts and your own attitude throughout this entire thread.0 -
Update email todayAfter lengthy process with the liquidator which had to take place we can now update you on the progress with the SCGC.
We have today sent a draft copy of a contract to the Landlords legal team for their consideration.
We have stressed upon the Landlords that it is imperative that they get back to us ASAP as we do appreciate that you the members have and are waiting to get back playing golf.
We expect to have an answer with-in the next week and we will get back to you.0 -
You left because of my posts? You paid a sub in Beech Park on top of the sub you paid in SC because of my posts?The great majority of those who paid their 2012 sub are staying and will play it by ear after this year. Its a reasonable assumption that those who have laid out subs in other clubs had not paid in SC. In which case they will be missed terribly.[/QUOTE]
I have read all these threads a few times now and I just want to point out something to you in particular. Your reasonable assumption that those who left had not paid their subs is about as wrong as most of the stuff you have been spouting on this forum. I for one paid a year in advance for myself. I paid a full years sub for another member in January and two weeks before the famous text I introduced a new member who paid his full sub at the bar.
I am one of those that has left and went to Beech Park and I am sorry that I will be missed terribly. However, I did not leave because I did not pay my sub and that allegation by you is as wild as the rest of what you have been spouting. To help you, just in case you are making a compilation of any factual reasons why members left, in my case, I left simply because of the information of what membership of the club would be like through your posts and your own attitude throughout this entire thread.
Priceless.0 -
You left because of my posts? You paid a sub in Beech Park on top of the sub you paid in SC because of my posts?
Priceless.
No, not priceless, rather shamefull I would think. But you wouldn't know anything about that and coming on here making sweeping statements suggesting that those who have made a decision to leave have done so because they bummed a years free golf tells me all I need to know to help me compound my decision and your refusal to apologise for making it even makes it worse. I received an email today from our captains as printed above and it tells me that the landlord and his legal team know all about the contract that has been drawn up on the members behalf but the members don't know what was in the contract - or should I check my mail further for an attachment? I think not and I and a lot of other members who are not up the list of celebs close enough to Pat Kavanagh and some of the senior members would have one thing in common with SDGC, that being the mushrooms that grow in the dark up around the front nine holes because that is how we have been kept.0 -
To be frank, shameful wouldn't be top of my list. Petulant, rash, ill-considered and perverse all fit the bill better.You left because of my posts? You paid a sub in Beech Park on top of the sub you paid in SC because of my posts?
Priceless.
No, not priceless, rather shamefull I would think. But you wouldn't know anything about that and coming on here making sweeping statements suggesting that those who have made a decision to leave have done so because they bummed a years free golf tells me all I need to know to help me compound my decision and your refusal to apologise for making it even makes it worse. I received an email today from our captains as printed above and it tells me that the landlord and his legal team know all about the contract that has been drawn up on the members behalf but the members don't know what was in the contract - or should I check my mail further for an attachment? I think not and I and a lot of other members who are not up the list of celebs close enough to Pat Kavanagh and some of the senior members would have one thing in common with SDGC, that being the mushrooms that grow in the dark up around the front nine holes because that is how we have been kept.
How the captains and committee are dealing with the complex and sensitive issues involved in rebuilding South County is no longer your concern. You left - remember?
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.0 -
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To be frank, shameful wouldn't be top of my list. Petulant, rash, ill-considered and perverse all fit the bill better.
How the captains and committee are dealing with the complex and sensitive issues involved in rebuilding South County is no longer your concern. You left - remember?
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.
I am going to make this really simple for you, it is a simple question that requires a simple answer and from a legal standpoint I want you to answer it. Members of SDGC who have left and gone to other clubs can be very easily identified. The post that you have made suggests that we knowingly played golf without paying our membership, that we then left and paid the money we should have used to pay SDGC to another club and that for that reason we will not be missed out of SDGC. Now, the question I am asking, and it is a yes or no answer, and the question is this: Do you want to retract that statement or do you not because I intend to make you do so.0 -
For starters, how about you get the club's name right? It is South COUNTY - as in SC, not SD.To be frank, shameful wouldn't be top of my list. Petulant, rash, ill-considered and perverse all fit the bill better.
How the captains and committee are dealing with the complex and sensitive issues involved in rebuilding South County is no longer your concern. You left - remember?
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.
I am going to make this really simple for you, it is a simple question that requires a simple answer and from a legal standpoint I want you to answer it. Members of SDGC who have left and gone to other clubs can be very easily identified. The post that you have made suggests that we knowingly played golf without paying our membership, that we then left and paid the money we should have used to pay SDGC to another club and that for that reason we will not be missed out of SDGC. Now, the question I am asking, and it is a yes or no answer, and the question is this: Do you want to retract that statement or do you not because I intend to make you do so.
Now, to your rather weird obsession with my earlier post. I said it is a reasonable assumption that people prepared to pay a sub elsewhere are not doing so having already paid a sub at SC. That is a reasonable assumption and I suspect that if those who have left - and who have paid to join somewhere else - were audited, a very high percentage would be shown to be among the number of SC members who had not paid by end April. Subs were due at end April. Nobody (who paid in 2011) was playing "free golf" before then.
With me so far?
Now you have taken umbrage because you say you paid up for 2012 in SC, then decided to leave and pay another sub elsewhere (you have paid your sub in Beech Park haven't you?)
If you paid your 2012 sub in SC, then I think you are a bit silly to be walking away at this point. For those who didn't pay their 2012 subs, and thereby contributed to the clubs current problems, my earlier comments apply.0 -
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]
Really, Beech Park inferior to South County?? Really?
I think this thread has really run its course, South County, while a nice track, was never and will never be a great track, I understand members bias and loyalty and I wish you all the best for the future.0 -
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.
Really, Beech Park inferior to South County?? Really?
I think this thread has really run its c ,-ourse, South County, while a nice track, was never and will never be a great track, I understand members bias and loyalty and I wish you all the best for the future.[/Quote]
I didn't claim that SC was "a great track", but it's a couple of rungs up the ladder from Beech Park-although that is a pleasant enough "track". Just my opinion of course.0 -
I never said you did, although,It has been said a few times in this thread, its very tough for those who paid upfront and my sympathies go to all involved.0
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I have been reading this thread and found the information useful and don't think it's run it course.
There's been lots of diverse and interesting views. One thing that is very clear is that the club collapsed due to cash flow difficulties caused by an exceptionally high number of 120 people not renewing. This is a clear indisputable fact.
It is also true that the rental being paid to the landlords was excessive, well above the market rate even after reductions and this contributed to the situation.
Sure the board could have communicated better with members, but it is worth remembering that these were voluntary workers whatever your view on how they conducted affairs.
South County is the best course in the vicinity and you would have to travel a good distance to find better. The landlord rented out 200 acres of bogland and has received back a championship golf course which more than makes up for any rent arrears.
The challenge is to maintain the course and make it viable. I think this is achievable with no debt and the remaining SC members have a good deal on the table to test the new scenario. Some may have scattered but given it was the collective decisions of 120 people not to renew that collapsed the club then maybe it's been a good process so that only loyal members remain who can be joined by new members who want to play the best quality golf course in the area.
There's been a fair amount of board bashing and indeed Gambino bashing but let's stick with constructive stuff.
We'll be back taking on this fine course in competition before the month is out. Thanks to other courses who have been very accommodating during our 'break'. Good luck to all.0 -
For starters, how about you get the club's name right? It is South COUNTY - as in SC, not SD.To be frank, shameful wouldn't be top of my list. Petulant, rash, ill-considered and perverse all fit the bill better.
How the captains and committee are dealing with the complex and sensitive issues involved in rebuilding South County is no longer your concern. You left - remember?
You've chosen to walk away and to play your golf on a much inferior course, it seems in order to make a rather incoherent point. Good luck with that.
I am going to make this really simple for you, it is a simple question that requires a simple answer and from a legal standpoint I want you to answer it. Members of SDGC who have left and gone to other clubs can be very easily identified. The post that you have made suggests that we knowingly played golf without paying our membership, that we then left and paid the money we should have used to pay SDGC to another club and that for that reason we will not be missed out of SDGC. Now, the question I am asking, and it is a yes or no answer, and the question is this: Do you want to retract that statement or do you not because I intend to make you do so.
Now, to your rather weird obsession with my earlier post. I said it is a reasonable assumption that people prepared to pay a sub elsewhere are not doing so having already paid a sub at SC. That is a reasonable assumption and I suspect that if those who have left - and who have paid to join somewhere else - were audited, a very high percentage would be shown to be among the number of SC members who had not paid by end April. Subs were due at end April. Nobody (who paid in 2011) was playing "free golf" before then.
With me so far?
Now you have taken umbrage because you say you paid up for 2012 in SC, then decided to leave and pay another sub elsewhere (you have paid your sub in Beech Park haven't you?)
If you paid your 2012 sub in SC, then I think you are a bit silly to be walking away at this point. For those who didn't pay their 2012 subs, and thereby contributed to the clubs current problems, my earlier comments apply.
Yes, I am with you so far, you can squirm any way you like and it does not excuse your ignorance in making such a statement. You have no way of knowing who had paid or when they had paid, n my case I had paid up to 2013 in January, along with paying for a member who never got to hit a ball. Like I said, you have to now agree that your remarks are directed at any and all members who left and whose names you have tarnished, unless you substantiate your slanderous "assumptions" by naming names.
Can you please also retract your other assumption that I am no longer a member of South County Golf Club and that it is none of my concern. I will be excercising my playing rights the same as you and anyone else until the end of the year. Now, you need to wind in your neck a bit or the only drive you will be doing is to drive more people out of the place as you have influenced me. I'll be playing there tomorrow by the way.0 -
South County is the best course in the vicinity and you would have to travel a good distance to find better.
My sympathies are with all the SC members who find themselves without a club, albeit possibly temporarily. And the loyalty of the remaining members admirable. But seriously, best course in the vicinity ? Its obviously a matter of opinion - its a good course, but thats about all IMO. Like most courses it has its good holes and its bad ones. Lets not get carried away here, with respect, its not like Dublin is losing an irreplaceable masterpiece.0 -
South County is the best course in the vicinity and you would have to travel a good distance to find better.
My sympathies are with all the SC members who find themselves without a club, albeit possibly temporarily. And the loyalty of the remaining members admirable. But seriously, best course in the vicinity ? Its obviously a matter of opinion - its a good course, but thats about all IMO. Like most courses it has its good holes and its bad ones. Lets not get carried away here, with respect, its not like Dublin is losing an irreplaceable masterpiece.
SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.0 -
All fair comment Ding but bear in mind that while seeking rent reductions from the greedy landlords, the club was also giving discounts and side deals to "loyal" members that amounted to a cumulative €100,000 in the last couple of years. In effect, we were asking the landlords to subsidise the subscriptions of those members who couldn't or wouldn't pay - and those who sought a reduction just for the hell of it.I have been reading this thread and found the information useful and don't think it's run it course.
There's been lots of diverse and interesting views. One thing that is very clear is that the club collapsed due to cash flow difficulties caused by an exceptionally high number of 120 people not renewing. This is a clear indisputable fact.
It is also true that the rental being paid to the landlords was excessive, well above the market rate even after reductions and this contributed to the situation.
Sure the board could have communicated better with members, but it is worth remembering that these were voluntary workers whatever your view on how they conducted affairs.
South County is the best course in the vicinity and you would have to travel a good distance to find better. The landlord rented out 200 acres of bogland and has received back a championship golf course which more than makes up for any rent arrears.
The challenge is to maintain the course and make it viable. I think this is achievable with no debt and the remaining SC members have a good deal on the table to test the new scenario. Some may have scattered but given it was the collective decisions of 120 people not to renew that collapsed the club then maybe it's been a good process so that only loyal members remain who can be joined by new members who want to play the best quality golf course in the area.
There's been a fair amount of board bashing and indeed Gambino bashing but let's stick with constructive stuff.
We'll be back taking on this fine course in competition before the month is out. Thanks to other courses who have been very accommodating during our 'break'. Good luck to all.
As for the Gambino bashing - bring it on. As my exchange with the hapless Hacker shows, a bit of robust bashing can lead to people revealing things that perhaps they shouldn't.
As you say, this thread has not yet run its course.....0 -
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Most of us have been thinking about exactly this over the last month. We saw the "deals" circulated at the meeting in Citywest and frankly, I wasn't interested in any of them.SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.
The only course "in the vicinity" comparable in quality to SC is Rathsallagh, which is too far for me on a regular basis. I would settle for Castle too, but that is a combination of course and convenience. Nothing else offers anything like the variety, challenge and quality of SC.0 -
So much for me retracting my "assumption."The great majority of those who paid their 2012 sub are staying and will play it by ear after this year. Its a reasonable assumption that those who have laid out subs in other clubs had not paid in SC. In which case they will be missed terribly.[/QUOTE]
I have read all these threads a few times now and I just want to point out something to you in particular. Your reasonable assumption that those who left had not paid their subs is about as wrong as most of the stuff you have been spouting on this forum. I for one paid a year in advance for myself. I paid a full years sub for another member in January and two weeks before the famous text I introduced a new member who paid his full sub at the bar.
I am one of those that has left and went to Beech Park and I am sorry that I will be missed terribly. However, I did not leave because I did not pay my sub and that allegation by you is as wild as the rest of what you have been spouting. To help you, just in case you are making a compilation of any factual reasons why members left, in my case, I left simply because of the information of what membership of the club would be like through your posts and your own attitude throughout this entire thread.
So you haven't paid a sub there yet? I wonder how many of the "twenty" who we are told have gone to Beech Park have done so?
Keep talking Hacker, we are learning a lot.0 -
SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.
As I said, its a matter of opinion. Its not a bad course, don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go about the quality or not of SC, or knocking SC.
I would probably disagree with "widely acknowledged" & "well above" however, but hey, thats the beauty of different opinions. No big deal.0 -
SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.
Define "in the area for" me please.
As for thinking its "certainly well above" Newlands and BeechPark and Gambino thinking that its comparable to Rathsallagh but better than Castle...
I would question how a course that is clearly the outstanding course in the area has not managed to attract enough members to be a running concern.0 -
As I said, its a matter of opinion. Its not a bad course, don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go about the quality or not of SC, or knocking SC.
I would probably disagree with "widely acknowledged" & "well above" however, but hey, thats the beauty of different opinions. No big deal.
+10 -
SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.
Define "in the area for" me please.
As for thinking its "certainly well above" Newlands and BeechPark and Gambino thinking that its comparable to Rathsallagh but better than Castle...
I would question how a course that is clearly the outstanding course in the area has not managed to attract enough members to be a running concern.
The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.
As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc0 -
The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.
As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc
I would rate Tulfarris above SC, 20 minutes drive from it. Would probably rate SC above the list you gave though, so agree there. But like previously said, a lot of it is down to opinion.0 -
All fair comment Ding but bear in mind that while seeking rent reductions from the greedy landlords, the club was also giving discounts and side deals to "loyal" members that amounted to a cumulative €100,000 in the last couple of years. In effect, we were asking the landlords to subsidise the subscriptions of those members who couldn't or wouldn't pay - and those who sought a reduction just for the hell of it.I have been reading this thread and found the information useful and don't think it's run it course.
There's been lots of diverse and interesting views. One thing that is very clear is that the club collapsed due to cash flow difficulties caused by an exceptionally high number of 120 people not renewing. This is a clear indisputable fact.
It is also true that the rental being paid to the landlords was excessive, well above the market rate even after reductions and this contributed to the situation.
Sure the board could have communicated better with members, but it is worth remembering that these were voluntary workers whatever your view on how they conducted affairs.
South County is the best course in the vicinity and you would have to travel a good distance to find better. The landlord rented out 200 acres of bogland and has received back a championship golf course which more than makes up for any rent arrears.
The challenge is to maintain the course and make it viable. I think this is achievable with no debt and the remaining SC members have a good deal on the table to test the new scenario. Some may have scattered but given it was the collective decisions of 120 people not to renew that collapsed the club then maybe it's been a good process so that only loyal members remain who can be joined by new members who want to play the best quality golf course in the area.
There's been a fair amount of board bashing and indeed Gambino bashing but let's stick with constructive stuff.
We'll be back taking on this fine course in competition before the month is out. Thanks to other courses who have been very accommodating during our 'break'. Good luck to all.
As for the Gambino bashing - bring it on. As my exchange with the hapless Hacker shows, a bit of robust bashing can lead to people revealing things that perhaps they shouldn't.
As you say, this thread has not yet run its course.....
The landlords were not greedy but smart in extracting maximum rental for their land. However it may have been wiser to have a temporary reduction in rent of 50% or so until their tenant became more viable.
On the deals, there are 2 categories, 'can't pay' and 'won't pay'. SC would have had a similiar amount of 'can't pay' to most courses but there was a large number of 'won't pay' and the club will be better without them as ultimately they collapsed their own club. Its a but like the wider debate in Irish society in debt forgiveness, trying to separate the 'can't pay' from 'won't pay' is the challenge.0 -
The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.
As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc
I would rate Tulfarris above SC, 20 minutes drive from it. Would probably rate SC above the list you gave though, so agree there. But like previously said, a lot of it is down to opinion.
Fully agree, if petrol was cheaper than 1.65 it would be very much an option!0 -
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The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.
As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc
I'm sorry but Castle is a far better course in my opinion, probably Edmonstown, Newlands & Beechpark too.
And I certainly wouldnt call Castle claustrophobic? Milltown sure but Castle?0
This discussion has been closed.
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