South County GC Closed

Gambino

Ding Ding wrote: »

GreeBo wrote: »

Ding Ding wrote: »

SC is widely acknowledged by members, non members, golf professionals etc as a superior course to those in the area, certainly well above those courses that disgruntled members have moved to such as Beech Park, Newlands etc. This is not just my judgment, talk to any pro familiar with courses in the area.

Define "in the area for" me please.

As for thinking its "certainly well above" Newlands and BeechPark and Gambino thinking that its comparable to Rathsallagh but better than Castle...

I would question how a course that is clearly the outstanding course in the area has not managed to attract enough members to be a running concern.

The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.

As regards failure, 3m of debt and aann inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc

I took an even wider definition and included Stackstown as well as the courses down the Naas Rd and Wicklow direction. With the exception of the European and Druids Glen (not Heath) I didn't see anything there either.

GreeBo

Are you guys including an unwritten "for the price/value for money" caveat in these descriptions?

shamco

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm sorry but Castle is a far better course in my opinion, probably Edmonstown, Newlands & Beechpark too.
And I certainly wouldnt call Castle claustrophobic? Milltown sure but Castle?

Castle maybe? but the other 3 I don't think so and certainly not Edmonstown

Gambino

Ding Ding wrote: »

newport2 wrote: »

Ding Ding wrote: »

The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.

As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc

I would rate Tulfarris above SC, 20 minutes drive from it. Would probably rate SC above the list you gave though, so agree there. But like previously said, a lot of it is down to opinion.

Fully agree, if petrol was cheaper than 1.65 it would be very much an option!

Tulfarris is grand as long a it hasn't rained in the previous month. Non existent drainage.

neckedit

We have now come to the opinion the South County is the best course in South Dublin and Wicklow??

For starters Castle is way ahead, you may get close in 30-40 yrs time when all grows in but no where near the maturity and quality, Im not going to write IMO as i'm sure is understood as so, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh,Newlands, former PGA National, Beech Park, Grange, European, man I'm sorry I could go on, all I feel better courses, But as I said before I admire your loyalty and you defense of your home track.

Gambino

neckedit wrote: »

We have now come to the opinion the South County is the best course in South Dublin and Wicklow??

For starters Castle is way ahead, you may get close in 30-40 yrs time when all grows in but no where near the maturity and quality, Im not going to write IMO as i'm sure is understood as so, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh,Newlands, former PGA National, Beech Park, Grange, European, man I'm sorry I could go on, all I feel better courses, But as I said before I admire your loyalty and you defense of your home track.

Agree about European but its a tough, tough course (and not open for membership as far as I know.) Also agree about Rathsallagh - both of them are just a bit far. Castle is a fine mix of a good course, strong club and great location. It is the only one of the close to the city courses worth playing. It is also the only club with a 99 year waiting list.

As I said above Tulfarris is grand as long as it hasn't rained in the previous month. Drainage is non-existent. It is also in NAMA.

Palmerstown Housed (former PGA National) is nice but is also in NAMA and barely surviving. Rumour (uncomfirmed) that it may revert to a stud farm. It is not being well maintained.

Grange is mickey mouse; too many par 3's and a geriatric membership. Beech Park is allright but has some very weak holes - par 4's where mid-handicappers are hitting 5 irons off the tee and some rudimentary par 3's.

Craddockstown isn't bad and they seem to have managed their finances pretty well. It would probably be my next option if SC doesn't work out.

matt-dublin

Druids heath / Glen?

newport2

Gambino wrote: »

Tulfarris is grand as long a it hasn't rained in the previous month. Non existent drainage.

Slight exageration here I think. Not often we get a month without rain in Ireland.

Gambino

newport2 wrote: »

Slight exageration here I think. Not often we get a month without rain in Ireland.

Ok then - two weeks.

Russman

Gambino wrote: »

Agree about European but its a tough, tough course. Also agree about Rathsallagh - both of them are just a bit far. Castle is a fine mix of a good course, strong club and great location. It is the only one of the close to the city courses worth playing. It is also the only club with a 99 year waiting list.

As I said above Tulfarris is grand as long as it hasn't rained in the previous month. Drainage is non-existent. It is also in NAMA.

Palmerstown Housed (former PGA National) is nice but is also in NAMA and barely surviving. Rumour (uncomfirmed) that it may revert to a stud farm. It is not being well maintained.

Grange is mickey mouse; too many par 3's and a geriatric membership. Beech Park is allright but has some very weak holes - par 4's where mid-handicappers are hitting 5 irons off the tee and some rudimentary par 3's.

If we're continuing to explore this......
Off the top of my head, in the general area courses that are better IMO:
Grange, Castle, Beech Park, Rathsallagh, Tulfarris, Naas, Palmerstown House.
There's others that are arguably as good also, different but equally as challenging, the likes of Castlewarden (bland but tough enough), Killeen (same blandness), Slade Valley (tricky but very tough to score on), Newlands (very underrated).

It depends on what constitutes a "good" course really, toughness, prettiness, good greens, etc etc.

Members of every club will be biased towards their own and I don't want to denigrate any course, as the land a course is on is the land its on, they're kinda stuck with it - the members make a club and a good club can make up for a slightly lesser course.

If you add in GreeBo's value element then it opens up a huge list of courses and opinions.

I can't believe anyone would say the Grange is mickey mouse though, come on !

Gambino

matt-dublin wrote: »

Druids heath / Glen?

Yeah, mentioned them earlier. Glen yes, Heath no. €2,600 annual sub for both - pretty steep but a lovely course the Glen.

Gambino

Russman wrote: »

If we're continuing to explore this......
Off the top of my head, in the general area courses that are better IMO:
Grange, Castle, Beech Park, Rathsallagh, Tulfarris, Naas, Palmerstown House.
There's others that are arguably as good also, different but equally as challenging, the likes of Castlewarden (bland but tough enough), Killeen (same blandness), Slade Valley (tricky but very tough to score on), Newlands (very underrated).

It depends on what constitutes a "good" course really, toughness, prettiness, good greens, etc etc.

Members of every club will be biased towards their own and I don't want to denigrate any course, as the land a course is on is the land its on, they're kinda stuck with it - the members make a club and a good club can make up for a slightly lesser course.

If you add in GreeBo's value element then it opens up a huge list of courses and opinions.

I can't believe anyone would say the Grange is mickey mouse though, come on !

Grange insists on starting with those two silly par 3's and has six altogether. Par 68 for goodness sake, with one par 5. They also have a huge debt that is being pushed onto (the few) younger members as they are paying interest only.

Each to his own but I doubt many would agree that Naas, Castlewarden, Kileen, Beech Park or (especially) Slade Valley are better than SC. Have you noticed how many Slade Valley members come and play at SC when they are closed for fog or wet?

Dr_Colossus

Gambino wrote: »

As I said above Tulfarris is grand as long as it hasn't rained in the previous month. Drainage is non-existent. It is also in NAMA.

When's the last time you played Tulfarris? I'd consider it's winter conditions similar if not better than Rathsallagh in terms of drainage but a tougher course in general. Granted it's bunkers are an issue with the sand often compacted and hard so that's an area drainage, the quality of sand and maintenance is a problem but to say the drainage is non-existent and course unplayable if it rains in the preceding month is unfair.

As for being in NAMA I'd consider that being an advantage from a subscription perspective since membership fees are segregated and drip fed to NAMA each month rather than paid directly into a private company which can then go into liquidation. Sure there are disadvantages with NAMA in terms of the running of a club but I don't believe these to outweigh the security it encompasses with what is the golfers biggest liability, your annual sub.

And in terms of a full disclosure, yes I am a member of Tulfarris.

ArielAtom

I think the course this thread is taking is wrong. Everyone is going to defend their own course.


I was a member of Soutcounty for the last two tears. I grew up in Terenure and have played most of the clubs mentioned on a regular basis. I am being impartial here.

I would consider The Castle well above Southcounty, Tulfarris edging it on design but not on condition. Grange on a par even taking in the par 3, 3 start. Newlands just below it. Slade Valley, Killeen, Castlewarden, Edmondstown, Rathfarnham, Stackstown another level down. Never played Milltown.

Lads remember it is only an opinion, so don't get upset. My intention is not to upset anyone.

There was a poster called The Architect or Kevin Markham who's opinion's I would respect having read some of their posts. Maybe they might rate the courses mentioned?

shamco

ArielAtom wrote: »

I think the course this thread is taking is wrong. Everyone is going to defend their own course.


I was a member of Soutcounty for the last two tears. I grew up in Terenure and have played most of the clubs mentioned on a regular basis. I am being impartial here.

I would consider The Castle well above Southcounty, Tulfarris edging it on design but not on condition. Grange on a par even taking in the par 3, 3 start. Newlands just below it. Slade Valley, Killeen, Castlewarden, Edmondstown, Rathfarnham, Stackstown another level down. Never played Milltown.

Lads remember it is only an opinion, so don't get upset. My intention is not to upset anyone.

There was a poster called the Architect who's opinion I would respect having read some of his posts. Maybe he might rate the courses mentioned?

Good assesment of the courses mentioned

GreeBo

Gambino wrote: »

Grange insists on starting with those two silly par 3's and has six altogether. Par 68 for goodness sake, with one par 5. They also have a huge debt that is being pushed onto (the few) younger members as they are paying interest only.

Silly par 3's?
What constitutes a silly par 3 for you prey tell?
173M, 170M, 186M, 179M?

Also there are 2 par 5's on the back nine

Grange Golf Club has 0 debt. You may or may not be aware but a CPO on two portions of land over the last 10 years or so have been a very nice supplementary income.

Grange has no concept of interest only membership.

Please dont speak of things that you clearly know nothing about.

Gambino wrote: »

Each to his own but I doubt many would agree that Naas, Castlewarden, Kileen, Beech Park or (especially) Slade Valley are better than SC. Have you noticed how many Slade Valley members come and play at SC when they are closed for fog or wet?

Have you noticed how many of those members never decided to join the clearly superior SC?

Russman

Gambino wrote: »

Grange insists on starting with those two silly par 3's and has six altogether. Par 68 for goodness sake, with one par 5. They also have a huge debt that is being pushed onto (the few) younger members as they are paying interest only.

Each to his own but I doubt many would agree that Naas, Castlewarden, Kileen, Beech Park or (especially) Slade Valley are better than SC. Have you noticed how many Slade Valley members come and play at SC when they are closed for fog or wet?

Thats only one variant of the courses available in the Grange that starts par 3, par 3. Anyway, whats wrong with that ? or with a par 68 ? Yes, they've 6 par 3s which I'll admit isn't ideal, but they're all good ones.

Slade Valley members used go down to play on occassion coz its local and was cheap.

I think you may have misinterpreted my post, I included Castlewarden, Killeen & Slade Valley as being equal, not better - all in IMO I stress. We could probably leave out Castlewarden though on reflection

Anyway, we're waaay off thread here. Most courses have good holes and bad holes (even SC has bad holes), points of view on certain courses will rarely agree.

Gambino

ArielAtom wrote: »

I think the course this thread is taking is wrong. Everyone is going to defend their own course.


I was a member of Soutcounty for the last two tears. I grew up in Terenure and have played most of the clubs mentioned on a regular basis. I am being impartial here.

I would consider The Castle well above Southcounty, Tulfarris edging it on design but not on condition. Grange on a par even taking in the par 3, 3 start. Newlands just below it. Slade Valley, Killeen, Castlewarden, Edmondstown, Rathfarnham, Stackstown another level down. Never played Milltown.

Lads remember it is only an opinion, so don't get upset. My intention is not to upset anyone.

There was a poster called the Architect who's opinion I would respect having read some of his posts. Maybe he might rate the courses mentioned?

No harm in swapping views on courses but if it's about possible alternatives for SC members, then Castle is irrelevant as it's not available. Personally I would go nuts if I had to play the Grange every week.

GreeBo

ArielAtom wrote: »

I would consider The Castle well above Southcounty, Tulfarris edging it on design but not on condition. Grange on a par even taking in the par 3, 3 start. Newlands just below it. Slade Valley, Killeen, Castlewarden, Edmondstown, Rathfarnham, Stackstown another level down. Never played Milltown.

Hey, I would be interested in the differences you see between Castle, Grange and Milltown. Bar Milltown being a bit short & cramped I think the 3 courses are very similar in style and presentation; 3 suburban parkland courses.

I've played all 3 of them a lot (being a member in Grange) and think them pretty similar.

I would rate Castelwarden alongside SC, Stackstown slightly above because of its maturity.

GreeBo

Gambino wrote: »

Personally I would go nuts if I had to play the Grange every week.

:rolleyes:

If you can keep it straight off the tee its not an issue.
Hopefully the SC guys who have joined recently can keep their sanity.

Gambino

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Gambino wrote: »

As I said above Tulfarris is grand as long as it hasn't rained in the previous month. Drainage is non-existent. It is also in NAMA.

When's the last time you played Tulfarris? I'd consider it's winter conditions similar if not better than Rathsallagh in terms of drainage but a tougher course in general. Granted it's bunkers are an issue with the sand often compacted and hard so that's an area drainage, the quality of sand and maintenance is a problem but to say the drainage is non-existent and course unplayable if it rains in the preceding month is unfair.

As for being in NAMA I'd consider that being an advantage from a subscription perspective since membership fees are segregated and drip fed to NAMA each month rather than paid directly into a private company which can then go into liquidation. Sure there are disadvantages with NAMA in terms of the running of a club but I don't believe these to outweigh the security it encompasses with what is the golfers biggest liability, your annual sub.

And in terms of a full disclosure, yes I am a member of Tulfarris.

Last time I played Tulfarris was winter before last and we lost several balls that plugged in the fairway.

Whyner

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey, I would be interested in the differences you see between Castle, Grange and Milltown.

Should you not do it in a different thread? Let's keep this for updates to SC.

ArielAtom

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey, I would be interested in the differences you see between Castle, Grange and Milltown. Bar Milltown being a bit short & cramped I think the 3 courses are very similar in style and presentation; 3 suburban parkland courses.

I've played all 3 of them a lot (being a member in Grange) and think them pretty similar.

I would rate Castelwarden alongside SC, Stackstown slightly above because of its maturity.

OK.

Never played Milltown. I always found The Castle to be in better condition than The Grange. Both fine courses but The Castle just has something about it that appeals to me over The Grange. I'd disagree on you comparison of Castlewarden with Southcounty and the rating of Stackstown above it borders on farcical, but then that what opinions are all about.

Gambino

GreeBo wrote: »

Silly par 3's?
What constitutes a silly par 3 for you prey tell?
173M, 170M, 186M, 179M?

Also there are 2 par 5's on the back nine

Grange Golf Club has 0 debt. You may or may not be aware but a CPO on two portions of land over the last 10 years or so have been a very nice supplementary income.

Grange has no concept of interest only membership.

Please dont speak of things that you clearly know nothing about.


Have you noticed how many of those members never decided to join the clearly superior SC?

I take it you are a Grange member then. Yes, two par 5's. Starting with two par 3's causes congestion and delay. They have 6 other holes they could use to make it a proper layout (and start from the third) but the members like it the way it is. Fair enough, but not my cup of tea.


I wasn't talking about interest only membership. I'm talking about the repayments on the clubhouse - the reason the club opened for new members after years of being closed.

People join (and leave) clubs for lots of reasons. Has nobody ever left the Grange?

GreeBo

Whyner wrote: »

Should you not do it in a different thread? Let's keep this for updates to SC.

Bah stupid phone, that was supposed to be a PM!:o

Ding Ding

GreeBo wrote: »

Ding Ding wrote: »

The 'in the area' courses are:
Blessington Lakes, Slade Valley, Dublin Mountain, Dublin city, Hazel Grove, Citiwest, Beech Park, Newlands and let's include Edmonstown to make it 10. Ask a few pros and golfers you know to rank these 1-10, sure there will be variations but SC would rank top in a quite a few. I would also put it ahead of Castle and Milltown if we want to stretch the area, certainly less claustrophobic than these two and you are safe on any tee box in SC.

As regards failure, 3m of debt and an inflated rent didn't help, pricing an issue also. There's been lots of criticism of the cheaper deal of 1200 for new members, I think they should have gone for 999 in year 1, filled the place up and finished around 1200 for all. There has been a remarkable reluctance to understand the need to have a separate pricing model to attract new members. Surely people have heard of discounted variable rate in year 1 etc

I'm sorry but Castle is a far better course in my opinion, probably Edmonstown, Newlands & Beechpark too.
And I certainly wouldnt call Castle claustrophobic? Milltown sure but Castle?

The Castle has nice greens and is well located but beyond that it is just an okay parkland course, grossly overrated in my view. It is quite claustrophobic and indeed dangerous, there isn't a member who has not had to run for cover off the 9th tee box or index 1. A helmet would be handy which is not a requirement in SC.

newport2

Gambino wrote: »

Last time I played Tulfarris was winter before last and we lost several balls that plugged in the fairway.

If you never found them, how do you know?

GreeBo

Gambino wrote: »

I take it you are a Grange member then. Yes, two par 5's. Starting with two par 3's causes congestion and delay. They have 6 other holes they could use to make it a proper layout (and start from the third) but the members like it the way it is. Fair enough, but not my cup of tea.


I wasn't talking about interest only membership. I'm talking about the repayments on the clubhouse - the reason the club opened for new members after years of being closed.

People join (and leave) clubs for lots of reasons. Has nobody ever left the Grange?

There are 3 different layouts that are played.

There is no loan outstanding on the clubhouse it was fully paid off as part of the monies received from the CPO for the Green Route.

Grange has never been closed for membership. The club constitution limits the numbers of ordinary members for timesheet purposes. We have taken in new members every year since I first joined 20 odd years ago.

Grange is a serious alternative for SC members, as witnessed by those who have already joined and those who have inquired. Same goes for the numerous other nearby clubs. You appear to take issue with this so I suggest you "get over it" or just stop reading this thread.


Seriously dude, everyone is going to (and is right to) defend their own club, but resorting to making stuff up about other clubs is just silly and reflects badly on you when you are found out.

Gambino

newport2 wrote: »

If you never found them, how do you know?

I never missed a fairway in my life.

Gambino

GreeBo wrote: »

There are 3 different layouts that are played.

There is no loan outstanding on the clubhouse it was fully paid off as part of the monies received from the CPO for the Green Route.

.

Then one of your ex captains and an eminent senior member are telling lies. But if my information is incorrect or out of date, I'm happy to withdraw it.

I only ever got to play a different layout once.