Is Katie Taylor Ireland best athlete

walshb

Magill wrote: »

Its not Katie's fault... who knows if she would still be as dominant if her sport and weight division was more competitive and had a larger fighter base, but to say that she is the greatest Irish Athlete ever is nothing but complete ignorance and an insult to our other elite athletes, both past and present.
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If your aunt had ba&&s she'd be your uncle.

We have said that boxing will never be as popular as other sports, some that just aren't near as pyhsically demanding. That has to be looked at.

We spoke about Sonia, and like I said, and cowzerp said, running is a lot easier to take up. It's not near as complex a sport as boxing. It's running, and the mechanics involved are innate in us. It's in our DNA. We do it naturally, some are just naturally better and get even better thru hard work.

Not every human can do what Katie does to her level, or even attempt to do it. They can attempt to do it at running, and may fail due to speed and endurance. Boxing is so much more intricate.

I am not sure that you appreciate the comp level there is today in Katie's sport. In China today there are many press from around the world, a whole lot more than in 2010. That shows the growth and depth there is right now, of course it being Olympic year will make this more apparent, but there are heaps of talented women from all continents competing for a place in London. It is highly competitive now.

cowzerp

Magill wrote: »

Like i've said in a previous post (Which some people seemed to just ignore), she isn't even the greatest boxer this Island has produced.

Your wrong though, she is the best and has the titles to support the claim.

Whatever million play golf, most do it for the fun-the actual challengers is a small number

If she wins Olympic gold it's as valuable as any other gold that is won.

titan18

cowzerp wrote: »

Your wrong though, she is the best and has the titles to support the claim.

Whatever million play golf, most do it for the fun-the actual challengers is a small number

If she wins Olympic gold it's as valuable as any other gold that is won.

The level of competition has to come into account when deciding on the best athlete ever though. Just because she has titles doesn't mean, she's naturally better than someone who competes in a more competitive field

Magill

walshb wrote: »

If your aunt had ba&&s she'd be your uncle.

We have said that boxing will never be as popular as other sports, some that just aren't near as pyhsically demanding. That has to be looked at.

We spoke about Sonia, and like I said, and cowzerp said, running is a lot easier to take up. It's not near as complex a sport as boxing. It's running, and the mechanics involved are innate in us. It's in our DNA. We do it naturally, some are just naturally better and get even better thru hard work.

Not every human can do what Katie does to her level, or even attempt to do it. They can attempt to do it at running, and may fail due to speed and endurance. Boxing is so much more intricate.

I am not sure that you appreciate the comp level there is today in Katie's sport. In China today there are many press from around the world, a whole lot more than in 2010. That shows the growth and depth there is right now, of course it being Olympic year will make this more apparent, but there are heaps of talented women from all continents competing for a place in London. It is highly competitive now.

This has nothing to do with how physically demanding a sport is, I've never said that running was more physical... just that the level of competition is much higher in some sports because the field of athletes is much larger. Its certainly not because most people can't "handle" boxing, its just not something that enters most women's heads (Too a lesser extend with men) when it comes to playing/taking part in a sport and thus most never give it a shot.

It still doesn't take away from the fact that it is a much less competitive field than that of other more popular sports. In other words... Katie is in the top 0.001% of her sport whereas Rory McIlroy is in the top 0.00001% of his.



Also, stop twisting my words, I've never said her weight division is not competitive. Her achievements are outstanding and i for one am proud of what shes done and will be cheering her on at the Olympics..

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote: »

Your wrong though, she is the best and has the titles to support the claim.

Whatever million play golf, most do it for the fun-the actual challengers is a small number

If she wins Olympic gold it's as valuable as any other gold that is won.

Ok if katie wins the world championship and Paula Radcliffe wins a marathon with 50,000 running in it, most non competitive and probably 5-10 people with any chance of challenging her how does that make it more competitive!

More does not mean better-most sports have a handfull of elite competitors and the rest make up the numbers.

Having tons making up the numbers means nothing.

titan18

cowzerp wrote: »

Ok if katie wins the world championship and Paula Radcliffe wins a marathon with 50,000 running in it, most non competitive and probably 5-10 people with any chance of challenging her how does that make it more competitive!

More does not mean better-most sports have a handfull of elite competitors and the rest make up the numbers.

Having tons making up the numbers means nothing.

I would consider the top 10 in distance racing(women and mens) to be of a higher standard than the top 10 in Women's boxing.

cowzerp

titan18 wrote: »

I would consider the top 10 in distance racing(women and mens) to be of a higher standard than the top 10 in Women's boxing.

Yeah but again you'd be wrong!

You have no clue about the standard, and Katie in particular is amazing and not because her opposition is poor.

walshb

Magill wrote: »

Also, stop twisting my words, I've never said her weight division is not competitive. Her achievements are outstanding and i for one am proud of what shes done and will be cheering her on at the Olympics..

I am not twisting your words, because I never said that you said that her weight division was not competitive.

"who knows if she would still be as dominant if her sport and weight division was more competitive and had a larger fighter base,"

I replied: "if your aunt had ba%^s she'd be your uncle."

So, where am I twisting your words?

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

I would consider the top 10 in distance racing(women and mens) to be of a higher standard than the top 10 in Women's boxing.

Possibly, but how can you measure two different sets of sports and competitors? Katie is the best of the best over all her opponents, and it's not because they are duds. She is the best, but many are so so close, and nipping at her heels all the time. That alone will tell you how good they are.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

You have no clue about the standard, and Katie in particular is amazing and because her opposition is poor.

Are you saying that this is what the poster above you thinks? The opposition is top class, Katie is just a slight notch better, and also, she has been beaten too, which shows us how deep the pool is.

makl

Magill wrote: »

This has nothing to do with how physically demanding a sport is, I've never said that running was more physical... just that the level of competition is much higher in some sports because the field of athletes is much larger. Its certainly not because most people can't "handle" boxing, its just not something that enters most women's heads (Too a lesser extend with men) when it comes to playing/taking part in a sport and thus most never give it a shot.

It still doesn't take away from the fact that it is a much less competitive field than that of other more popular sports. In other words... Katie is in the top 0.001% of her sport whereas Rory McIlroy is in the top 0.00001% of his.

Yes it is. Boxing is also about getting hit. Try doing corner for (or even being) an 8 year old who is crying after the first round of his first or second fight but who still goes back in for another two rounds. Plenty of people cannot and choose not to handle that.

If you get tired running, you walk home. Even the best in marathons. If you get tired boxing, you get smacked around. The 'field' of those who run is large because it's easy to do. The level of athletes at the top is tiny because it's difficult to be good at. Same with soccer. Anyone can kick a ball around.

26 million golfers? No way. If there are 26 million golfers in the US than anyone who has ever run for a bus is a runner or anyone who has driven a car is a rally driver. Rory McIlroy or Katie are not in the 0.000x of their sport. Fun runners and fun golfers (or fun boxers) don't count.

And even if we go with your argument about the level of competition, then only soccer players can be considered elite. Only. No one else. More people play football than anyone else in the world.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Are you saying that this is what the poster above you thinks? The opposition is top class, Katie is just a slight notch better, and also, she has been beaten too, which shows us how deep the pool is.

Left not poor out!! Fixed

We know boxing bren, its clear to see she is class by any standards-even comparing her to the men she stands out as been brilliant.

Not just a good woman in a weak division-genuine class

LeBash

In my opinion, if she was a male and achieved the same level there would be no doubt. So why is there a doubt?

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Left not poor out!! Fixed

Exactly what I thought, Paul!

walshb

LeBash wrote: »

In my opinion, if she was a male and achieved the same level there would be no doubt. So why is there a doubt?

Because that is the nature of theses debates. I have no problem with a different and worthy candidate. My issue is more with the tired and stale excuse that her field is not deep or competitive. That is false.

walshb

makl wrote: »

26 million golfers? No way. If there are 26 million golfers in the US than anyone who has ever run for a bus is a runner or anyone who has driven a car is a rally driver. Rory McIlroy or Katie are not in the 0.000x of their sport. Fun runners and fun golfers (or fun boxers) don't count.
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Glad you beat me to this. I thought it was off the charts illogical too. I play golf, albeit very ordinarily, I guess I am included in the pool here in Ireland.

waterfordkick

i found this in the aiba website. its a list of Katie's international achievements since 2004 !

60KG –
KATIE TAYLOR – IRELAND (IRL)
Date Of Birth : 07/02/1986
Place Of Birth : Bray
Club : Bray BC
Coach : Peter Taylor
She has been boxing since 1998.
2012 – IRL-NED Dual Match2 – 60KG Won against Jessica Belder (NED) 27:4
2012 – IRL-NED Dual Match1 – 60KG Won against Jessica Belder (NED) 25:5
2011 – European Women's Championships (Rotterdam, NED) 1st place – 60KG Won against Sofya Ochigava (RUS) 10:5 in the final; Won against Helena Falk (SWE) 25:11 in the semi-final; Won against Ayzanat Hajiyeva (AZE) 17:4 in the quarter-final; Won against Romina Marenda (ITA) 22:3 in the second preliminary round; Won against Julie Irmen (GER) 15:7 in the first preliminary round
2011 – IRL-NED Women's Dual Match – 60KG Won against Willeke Verdellen (NED) 22:4
2011 – EU Women's Championships (Katowice, POL) 1st place – 60KG Won against Karolina Graczyk (POL) 25:9 in the final; Won against Chantelle Cameron (ENG) 28:10 in the semi-final; Won against Marzia Davide (ITA) 16:5 in the quarter-final; Won against Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 11:6 in the first preliminary round
2011 – IRL-CHN Dual Match2 – 60KG Won against Dong Cheng (CHN) 11:0
2011 – IRL-CHN Dual Match1 – 60KG Won against Dong Cheng (CHN) 6:2
2011 – Irish Women's National Championships 1st place – 60KG
2011 – Strandja Memorial Tournament (Pazardjik, BUL) 2nd place – 60KG Lost to Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 5:1 in the final; Won against Natasha Jonas (ENG) 6:3 in the semi-final; Won against Danuse Dilhofova (CZE) 7:0 in the quarter-final
2010 – AIBA Women’s World Championships (Bridgetown, BAR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Dong Cheng (CHN) 18:5 in the final; Won against Queen Underwood (USA) 18:16 in the semi-final; Won against Anastasiya Belyakova (RUS) 16:1 in the quarter-final; Won against Adriana Araujo (BRA) 20:5 in the second preliminary round; Won against Neetu Chahal (IND) 12:2 in the first preliminary round
2010 – EU Women’s Championships (Keszthely, HUN) 1st place – 60KG Won against Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 16:1 in the final; Won against Karolina Graczyk (POL) 9:3 in the semi-final; Won against Danuse Dilhofova (CZE) DQ 3rd round in the quarter-final; Won against Jennifer Miranda (ESP) 8:0 in the first preliminary round
2010 – Haringey International Tournament (Haringey, ENG) 1st place – 60KG Won against Ingrid Egner (NOR) by points in the final
2010 – Turkish Prime Ministry Tournament (Ankara, TUR) 2nd place – 60KG Lost to Claire Ghabrial (AUS) WO in the final; Won against Erkan Melek (TUR) 6:0 in the semifinal; Won against Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 7:0 in the quarterfinal; Won against Tasheena Bugar (GER) 10:2 in the second preliminary round; Won against Ayat Ellah (EGY) 11:0 in the first preliminary round
2010 – Grand Prix Usti nad Labem, CZE) 3rd place – 60KG Lost to Sofya Ochigava (RUS) 8:1 in the semifinal; Won against Marzia Davide (ITA) 9:0 in the quarterfinal; Won against Kosovare Buzuku (SWE) 8:0 in the first preliminary round
2010 – Irish Women’s National Championships 1st place – 60KG
2009 – European Women’s Championships (Nikolayev, UKR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Meryem Aslan Zeybek (TUR) 11:0 in the final; Won against Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 8:0 in the semifinal; Won against Kosovare Buzuku (SWE) AB 1st round in the quarterfinal
2009 – International Women’s Tournament (St. Petersburg, RUS) 1st place – 60KG Won against Tatyana Bondareva (RUS) 6:3 in the final; Won against Oleksandra Sidorenko (UKR) 26:11 in the semifinal; Won against Ayzanat Gadzhiyeva (RUS) 17:4 in the quarterfinal; Won against Cheng Dong (CHN) 10:2 in the first preliminary round
2009 – EU Women’s Championships (Pazardzhik, BUL) 1st place – 60KG Won against Denitsa Eliseeva (BUL) 8:1 in the final; Won against Cindy Orain (FRA) 11:2 in the semifinal; Won against Giacoma Cordio (ITA) 14:1 in the quarterfinal
2009 – Ahmet Comert Tournament (Istanbul, TUR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Ozlem Dinc (TUR) 5:1 in the final; Won against Daria Abramova (RUS) AB 4th round in the semifinal; Won against Danuse Dilhofova (CZE) 11:2 in the quarterfinal; Won against Oleksandra Sidorenko (UKR) 12:2 in the first preliminary round
2009 – IRL-USA Dual Match2 – 60KG Won against Queen Underwood (USA) RSC 2nd round
2009 – IRL-USA Dual Match1 – 60KG Won against Queen Underwood (USA) 30:3
2008 – AIBA Women’s World Championships (Ningbo, CHN) 1st place – 60KG Won against Cheng Dong (CHN) 13:2 in the final; Won against Ayzanat Gadzhiyeva (RUS) 20:2 in the semifinal; Won against Celeste Peralta (ARG) RSC 1st round in the quarterfinal; Won against Danuse Dilhofova (CZE) 4:3 in the second preliminary round; Won against Emma Carruthers (AUS) 20:3 in the first preliminary round
2008 – EU Women’s Championships (Liverpool, ENG) 1st place – 60KG Won against Cindy Orain (FRA) 10:0 in the final; Won against Sandra Kruk (POL) RSC 1st round in the semifinal
2008 – International Women’s Tournament (Stupino, RUS) 1st place – 60KG Won against Daria Abramova (RUS) 21:6 in the final; Won against Oleksandra Sidorenko (UKR) 14:4 in the semifinal; Won against Tatyana Bondareva (RUS) 12:6 in the quarterfinal; Won against Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 16:5 in the first preliminary round
2008 – IRL-SWE Women’s Dual Match – 63KG Won against Klara Svensson (SWE) 27:7
2007 – European Women’s Championships (Vejle, DEN) 1st place – 60KG Won against Sandra Bruegger (SUI) RSCO 2nd round in the final; Won against Yana Zavyalova (UKR) 11:4 in the semifinal; Won against Maria de la Guia (ESP) RSCH 1st round in the quarterfinal; Won against Christina Athanasopoulou (GRE) RSCO 2nd round in the first preliminary round
2007 – Witch Cup (Pecs, HUN) 1st place – 60KG Won against Eva Wahlstroem (FIN) RSCO 2nd round in the final; Won against Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 11:5 in the semifinal; Won against Cindy Orain (FRA) RSCO 1st round in the quarterfinal
2007 – Ahmet Comert Tournament (Istanbul, TUR) 2nd place – 60KG Lost to Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 16:13 in the final; Won against Cindy Orain (FRA) RSCO 2nd round in the semifinal; Won against Valeriya Kurluk (KAZ) RSCO 2nd round in the quarterfinal; Won against Yelena Savelyeva (RUS) RSCO 2nd round in the first preliminary round
2007 – IRL-ENG Women’s Dual Match – 63KG Won against Amanda Coulson (ENG) RSCO 2nd round
2006 – AIBA Women’s World Championships (New Delhi, IND) 1st place – 60KG Won against Annabella Farias (ARG) 31:14 in the final; Won against Tatyana Chalaya (RUS) 23:6 in the semifinal; Won against Florina Popa (ROM) RSCO 2nd round in the quarterfinal; Won against Eva Wahlstroem (FIN) RSCO 2nd round in the second preliminary round; Won against Carrie Barry (USA) RSCO 2nd round in the first preliminary round
2006 – Venus Women’s Box Cup (Vejle, DEN) 2nd place – 60KG Lost to Lucie Bertaud (FRA) WO in the final; Won against Florina Popa (ROM) RSCO 2nd round in the semifinal; Won against Malene Nielsen (DEN) RSCO 2nd round in the quarterfinal; Won against Yelena Gorshkova (RUS) 26:20 in the first preliminary round
2006 – European Women’s Championships (Warsaw, POL) 1st place – 60KG Won against Tatyana Chalaya (RUS) RSCO 2nd round in the final; Won against Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 18:15 in the semifinal; Won against Florina Popa (ROM) 5:0 in the quarterfinal; Won against Teuta Cuni (SWE) RSCO 2nd round in the first preliminary round
2006 – Witch Cup (Pecs, HUN) 1st place – 60KG Won against Eva Wahlstroem (FIN) RSCO 2nd round in the final; Won against Malene Nielsen (DEN) RSCO 2nd round in the semifinal; Won against Edina Pezdany (HUN) RSC 1st round in the quarterfinal
2006 – EU Women’s Championships (Porto Torres, ITA) 5th place – 60KG Lost to Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 21:13 in the quarterfinal
2006 – Norway Box Cup (Oslo, NOR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Dina Burger (SUI) 27:25 in the final; Won against Lucie Bertaud (FRA) WO in the semifinal
2005 – CAN-IRL Dual Match2 – 60KG Draw against Marianne Millar (CAN)
2005 – CAN-IRL Dual Match1 – 60KG Won against Sandra Bizier (CAN) 3:2
2005 – AIBA Women’s World Championships (Podolsk, RUS) 7th place – 60KG Lost to Kang Kum Hui (PRK) 28:13 in the quarterfinal; Won against Pranamika Borah (IND) 34:22 in the first preliminary round
2005 – European Women’s Championships (Tonsberg, NOR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Eva Wahlstroem (FIN) 19:17 in the final; Won against Gulsum Tatar (TUR) 12+:12 in the semifinal; Won against Lucie Bertaud (FRA) RSCO 2nd round in the quarterfinal
2004 – European Women’s Championships (Riccone, ITA) participant – 60KG Lost to Yuliya Nemtsova (RUS) 27:12 in the first preliminary round
2004 – Torneo Italia Women's Tournament (Cascia, ITA) 1st place – 60KG Won against Jennifer Ogg (CAN) 41:30 in the final; Won against Eva Wahlstroem (FIN) 39:25 in the semifinal; Won against Emanuela Pantani (ITA) 22:6 in the quarterfinal
2004 – Norway Box Cup (Oslo, NOR) 1st place – 60KG Won against Josefina Tengroth (SWE) RSCO 2nd round in the final; Won against Ingrid Egner (NOR) 26:12 in the semifinal

some serious senior elite boxing going on there !

Magill

makl wrote: »

Yes it is. Boxing is also about getting hit. Try doing corner for (or even being) an 8 year old who is crying after the first round of his first or second fight but who still goes back in for another two rounds. Plenty of people cannot and choose not to handle that.

If you get tired running, you walk home. Even the best in marathons. If you get tired boxing, you get smacked around. The 'field' of those who run is large because it's easy to do. The level of athletes at the top is tiny because it's difficult to be good at. Same with soccer. Anyone can kick a ball around.

So running marathons is easy to do ? Im sorry... but what planet do you live on ? Maybe if you weigh 7 stone and have an 9ft stride.

Same can be said with boxing, anyone can throw a punch and take a hit, throw in the towel... i've done it (Not the throwing in the towel part), fat/skinning/small/tall/weak/strong kids i knew growing up have done it. Katie isn't exactly fighting "Wars" like some professionals. Its amateur Boxing, amateur Rugby is rougher and more intense than amateur boxing fs.

26 million golfers? No way. If there are 26 million golfers in the US than anyone who has ever run for a bus is a runner or anyone who has driven a car is a rally driver. Rory McIlroy or Katie are not in the 0.000x of their sport. Fun runners and fun golfers (or fun boxers) don't count.

You'd be surprised how many fun "Golfers" take part in tournaments and such. Yes most of them are not professionals, but that is only because the level at which you have to be to be a professional in sports like golf/football is so high. Like any sport you have to be the best of the best to be considered elite (Like Katie is). There are probably as many people boxing as there are playing golf, but there are just so many divisions in boxing that unlike golf, there is never a number 1 ranked person in the world overall. Katie is the best, in a very small subgroup (60kg) of an slightly bigger subgroup (female boxing). Compared to Rory mac who is ranked 2nd in his sport, with no subgroups or divisions separating him from other elite players (Even women have competed in the mens golf tournaments iirc).

And even if we go with your argument about the level of competition, then only soccer players can be considered elite. Only. No one else. More people play football than anyone else in the world.

My argument about the level of competition has nothing to do with who can be considered elite... like I've said previously, Elite sportsmen and women are those that are at the highest level of their field, Rory Mac is an elite golfer... Katie Taylor is an elite women's boxer, Roy Keane was an elite football player. Its quite simple really. The argument about the level of competition is just an indication of how difficult and rare it is to be the best at that sport, if you can't grasp that concept then don't reply to me because i'd be wasting my time talking to you.

Magill

LeBash wrote: »

In my opinion, if she was a male and achieved the same level there would be no doubt. So why is there a doubt?

No she wouldn't....

Male amateur boxing is a huge level below professional. Would you really rate some1's achievements who won an olympic gold over those of Jimmy McLarnin or Steve Collins ?

Audley Harrison won a gold medal.. yet was **** at pro level.

titan18

LeBash wrote: »

In my opinion, if she was a male and achieved the same level there would be no doubt. So why is there a doubt?

I know it's not exactly the same, but people doubt the Klitschko's even though they have been dominant for ages.

Also,I'm not exactly the only person who sees womens sport as inferior to mens. You just need to look at the money and attendances for any of them with a few exceptions

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Glad you beat me to this. I thought it was off the charts illogical too. I play golf, albeit very ordinarily, I guess I am included in the pool here in Ireland.

I'm sure Harrington is craapping himself!!

Dan_Solo

If a sport has more participants at any level then it is likely to be harder to get to the top. There's are plenty of boxers/MMAs who turn up for training and do their bit but have no interest in killing themselves to get to a competitive level.
And good luck to them too BTW.
But to say some sports have lots of "weekend warriors" who's heart isn't really in it and therefore don't count as part of the competitive pool is disingenuous. There has to be some link between participation number and hardcore element.
All this really means is that the top of 60kg women's boxing is probably less likely to be the GOAT, but there's no way of proving it. If every 60kg woman on earth boxed then we'd know. Otherwise, she might or might not be. We can be more certain with footballers and rugby players is all, but not definite.
As usual, it's just another excuse for a good aul chin wag and not something that can be proven.:)

Dan_Solo

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm sure Harrington is craapping himself!!

I was registered as a player with the FAI for a few years. I was waiting for that "King Ralph" moment when the 20,000 Irish footballers above me in the pecking order has some bizarre collective mishap...:D

cowzerp

With footballers it's much more selective-Keane who was used here had a good engine and done the basics right-he had little skill and many talk about him as 1 of the best at the time, in boxing it's 1 on 1 so teammates don't make a difference to results, Keane could have an off day and still win, a boxer has off day and it's game over.

Saying certain sports have weekend warriors is not disengenios, I train lots of girls to box and they don't get counted on the list with Katie Taylor-they would not qualify to fight her as its not like a marathon where anyone can do it-some owl lad playing golf for the fun has no bearing on how good tiger woods is.

makl

Magill wrote: »

So running marathons is easy to do ? Im sorry... but what planet do you live on ? Maybe if you weigh 7 stone and have an 9ft stride.

I never said that. (But they are, I just didn't say that at first. Look at the calibre of athlete who completes a marathon. It just takes a few months dedication. And if you get tired after a while, walk. A sub 3 - now that it is difficult. By the way, a 9 foot stride would make it more difficult.[/B]

Magill wrote: »

Same can be said with boxing, anyone can throw a punch and take a hit, throw in the towel... i've done it (Not the throwing in the towel part), fat/skinning/small/tall/weak/strong kids i knew growing up have done it. Katie isn't exactly fighting "Wars" like some professionals. Its amateur Boxing, amateur Rugby is rougher and more intense than amateur boxing fs.

you are wrong on all accounts here. you come across as not understanding amateur boxing. you come across as if you haven't seen many of Katie's fights. rugby may be rougher, but it ain't more intense. Also, Amateur v pro rugby is not the same as amateur v pro golf.

Magill wrote: »

You'd be surprised how many fun "Golfers" take part in tournaments and such. Yes most of them are not professionals, but that is only because the level at which you have to be to be a professional in sports like golf/football is so high. Like any sport you have to be the best of the best to be considered elite (Like Katie is). There are probably as many people boxing as there are playing golf, but there are just so many divisions in boxing that unlike golf, there is never a number 1 ranked person in the world overall. Katie is the best, in a very small subgroup (60kg) of an slightly bigger subgroup (female boxing). Compared to Rory mac who is ranked 2nd in his sport, with no subgroups or divisions separating him from other elite players (Even women have competed in the mens golf tournaments iirc).

Fine re your numbers. I still don't agree how bits in bold would make mcilroy more elite than katie.

Magill wrote: »

My argument about the level of competition has nothing to do with who can be considered elite... like I've said previously, Elite sportsmen and women are those that are at the highest level of their field, Rory Mac is an elite golfer... Katie Taylor is an elite women's boxer, Roy Keane was an elite football player. Its quite simple really. The argument about the level of competition is just an indication of how difficult and rare it is to be the best at that sport, if you can't grasp that concept then don't reply to me because i'd be wasting my time talking to you.

I know you think they are all elite. You just think some are more elite because their level of competition is deeper/greater. That's where your mistake lies. If you go that route, then soccer players, the most played sport at all levels, are the most elite. And that's nonsense.

Dan_Solo

cowzerp wrote: »

Saying certain sports have weekend warriors is not disengenios, I train lots of girls to box and they don't get counted on the list with Katie Taylor-they would not qualify to fight her as its not like a marathon where anyone can do it-some owl lad playing golf for the fun has no bearing on how good tiger woods is.

But it is disingenuous when the claim is that some sports have less committed participants and so can be discounted from the competitive pool when even you yourself have backed up that this happens in every sport.
What's so special about fat golfers or half-assed 5 a siders then that they should not be counted the same as non-competitive boxers?

titan18

Whilst I think Taylor ain't Ireland's best athlete ever, I think to say a golfer is, is rather stupid. I'm not sure I'd count them as athletes tbh.

Likewise, whilst I think Keane is being underrated here by some, cos of the lack of skill or whatever, even though he dominated players and opposing midfields at this peak, I don't think I'd give it to him.

Imo, it's Sean Kelly. He held the no 1 spot in cycling for six years and they had to change the ranking system otherwise, he'd have held it for years after retiring. The amount of races he won is incredible, and he was an excellent all-round cyclist, could sprint with the best sprinters, climb with the best climbers, descended like a demon and could ride in any weather. Considering cycling can often be quite specialised, it's rare to get a cyclist who can do it over multiple disciplines as well as Kelly did

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

Whilst I think Taylor ain't Ireland's best athlete ever, I think to say a golfer is, is rather stupid. I'm not sure I'd count them as athletes tbh.

Likewise, whilst I think Keane is being underrated here by some, cos of the lack of skill or whatever, even though he dominated players and opposing midfields at this peak, I don't think I'd give it to him.

Imo, it's Sean Kelly. He held the no 1 spot in cycling for six years and they had to change the ranking system otherwise, he'd have held it for years after retiring. The amount of races he won is incredible, and he was an excellent all-round cyclist, could sprint with the best sprinters, climb with the best climbers, descended like a demon and could ride in any weather. Considering cycling can often be quite specialised, it's rare to get a cyclist who can do it over multiple disciplines as well as Kelly did

Kelly to me is an excellent choice. I am the same as regards golfers.

Simple: Being an athlete could help your golf game, but being an athlete is not a necessity to play golf at the highest level. It's a game of poise, handling, technique, concentration, and natural talent with a swinging club. An athlete, or an athletic sport is not golf, at least not a good example.

cowzerp

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But it is disingenuous when the claim is that some sports have less committed participants and so can be discounted from the competitive pool when even you yourself have backed up that this happens in every sport.
What's so special about fat golfers or half-assed 5 a siders then that they should not be counted the same as non-competitive boxers?

No you missed my point, the golfers that are not competitive are been counted and my girls are not, nor should they be-they have no relevance to Katie or how she does, just like a Irish league footballer would have zero bearing on Roy Keane, they simply do the same sport.

My point is my girls Are not counted as the golfers doing it non competitive should not be either.

Dan_Solo

cowzerp wrote: »

No you missed my point, the golfers that are not competitive are been counted and my girls are not, nor should they be-they have no relevance to Katie or how she does, just like a Irish league footballer would have zero bearing on Roy Keane, they simply do the same sport.

My point is my girls Are not counted as the golfers doing it non competitive should not be either.

OK, but do you not think there is an intrinsic link between "non-competitive" and "competitive" participants in every sport? Maybe <1% or something of both people who plat football regularly and people who box regularly?

cowzerp

At elite level only the other elites matter-the rest especially non competitors don't matter.

Golf is full of people who play but would have no intention of competing, I just don't get why hobbyist should count.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

At elite level only the other elites matter-the rest especially non competitors don't matter.

Golf is full of people who play but would have no intention of competing, I just don't get why hobbyist should count.

BTW, golf is one game where a very average player in terms of wins and ranking can win a major. It's why I never gamble on the game. Anyone has a good stab at winning. Unlike say tennis or boxing or soccer, the usual elite lads and teams mostly win.

So, in that sense golf at pro level is very very competitive as anyone can win, but conversely, it means that the not so good or consistent guys can win too, so in that sense, how competitive is it really?

Dan_Solo

cowzerp wrote: »

At elite level only the other elites matter-the rest especially non competitors don't matter.

Golf is full of people who play but would have no intention of competing, I just don't get why hobbyist should count.

So how would you define what the competitive pool is then? Especially for an amateur sport?
Like I said, I don't think it can prove anything, but being the best out of 100,000 is likely to mean a better athlete than being the best out of 10,000 on statistics alone.

walshb

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So how would you define what the competitive pool is then? Especially for an amateur sport?
Like I said, I don't think it can prove anything, but being the best out of 100,000 is likely to mean a better athlete than being the best out of 10,000 on statistics alone.

I agree, it is likely, but in the case of say golf and boxing, or running and boxing, I would argue that a top boxer is a better athlete anyway. Golfers aren't athletes.

titan18

cowzerp wrote: »

At elite level only the other elites matter-the rest especially non competitors don't matter.

Golf is full of people who play but would have no intention of competing, I just don't get why hobbyist should count.

I think the point he's making is that due to women's boxing being a rather low popularity sport, there could be a better boxer than Taylor out there. Whereas something like soccer, there's pretty much no chance there's someone out there better than Messi/Ronaldo etc (at a similar age) as there'd be very few who've not played the game.

Golf is probably a bad example to make of it though, since it's a bit expensive to play

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

I think the point he's making is that due to women's boxing being a rather low popularity sport, there could be a better boxer than Taylor out there.

If that is his point then it's really clutching! Coulda woulda shoulda logic!

titan18

walshb wrote: »

If that is his point then it's really clutching! Coulda woulda shoulda logic!

It's a fair point imo. I'd rather someone who's proven themselves against the world's best and knowing that those best were the best on talent and not on there being no one else

Magill

makl wrote: »

I never said that. (But they are, I just didn't say that at first. Look at the calibre of athlete who completes a marathon. It just takes a few months dedication. And if you get tired after a while, walk. A sub 3 - now that it is difficult. By the way, a 9 foot stride would make it more difficult.[/B]

Like i said, its easy to compete in boxing as well.. yes you'll get beat up sometimes, but to compete it does not require any more than a marathon runner... in fact.. i'd have to say running a marathon requires much more than simply competiting in boxing. For someone that is out of shape can still box, they probably couldn't complete a marathon.

you are wrong on all accounts here. you come across as not understanding amateur boxing. you come across as if you haven't seen many of Katie's fights. rugby may be rougher, but it ain't more intense. Also, Amateur v pro rugby is not the same as amateur v pro golf.

I understand it fine, it is a very skilled sport, no doubt about it. Lots of hard training and lots of skill. But its certainly not this ridiculously hard sport that only some people are capable of competing in, as you made it out to be.

Fine re your numbers. I still don't agree how bits in bold would make mcilroy more elite than Katie.

Elite sounds a bit pretentious, but put it whatever you want... to be where Rory is at in his career, is a more rare than to be where Katie is (In that, there are more competitive golfers than there are boxers in Katie's Division). Comparing them directly as athletes is pointless as both have a completely different set of tools and talents.

I know you think they are all elite. You just think some are more elite because their level of competition is deeper/greater. That's where your mistake lies. If you go that route, then soccer players, the most played sport at all levels, are the most elite. And that's nonsense.

Well they are... to be the BEST player (Messi/Ronaldo/Pele/Maradona etc) in the world, it is that much harder in soccer as it would be in other less popular and less competitive sports, i mean... its not even up for debate, its facts and numbers. Soccer is by FAR the most competitive sport in the world, even people who only play for pub teams train 1 or 2 nights a week aswel as a match every weekend.




BTW comparing these athletes is completely stupid to begin with... why was it even brought up.... Katie Taylor is the best woman boxer this country has ever produced (Correct me if im wrong)... isn't that enough ?

cowzerp

Magill wrote: »

Like i said, its easy to compete in boxing as well.. yes you'll get beat up sometimes, but to compete it does not require any more than a marathon runner... in fact.. i'd have to say running a marathon requires much more than simply competiting in boxing. For someone that is out of shape can still box, they probably couldn't complete a marathon

A proper Boxer could easily do the marathon without ever training for it, a marathon runner would be bollixed after a real round of boxing, and stopped badly if in with a good boxer. You my friend are clueless

Dan_Solo

walshb wrote: »

If that is his point then it's really clutching! Coulda woulda shoulda logic!

What? Care to back that up instead of just saying I'm wrong? Can't explain won't explain?

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

It's a fair point imo. I'd rather someone who's proven themselves against the world's best and knowing that those best were the best on talent and not on there being no one else

But it's been said many times now, the comp is there, and has been for a few years now. The sport is global, when will that sink in? I know it will never be as participatory as some other sports, but that applies to men and women across several different sports. If Katie's records doesn't show how good she is and if the people she beat from all over the world don't say it, what will?

Dan_Solo

cowzerp wrote: »

A proper Boxer could easily do the marathon without ever training for it, a marathon runner would be bollixed after a real round of boxing, and stopped badly if in with a good boxer. You my friend are clueless

But he wouldn't be an elite marathoner. So you're back where you started. A golfer could cover 26 miles but he wouldn't be competitive, would he?

Dan_Solo

walshb wrote: »

But it's been said many times now, the comp is there, and has been for a few years now. The sport is global, when will that sink in? I know it will never be as participatory as some other sports, but that applies to men and women across several different sports. If Katie's records doesn't show how good she is and if the people she beat from all over the world don't say it, what will?

You're still not getting it. It's more likely for you to be the best at something if 10 people do it than if 100 people do it.

walshb

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're still not getting it. It's more likely for you to be the best at something if 10 people do it than if 100 people do it.

I get that well. So, I guess then using that logic boxers can't be considerd, nor can any sports that have not got the particpation level of what?, soccer, golf, running? Do you think this? Just asking.

Like it's been said, elite for elite should be used, and in this instance, I think Katie can be considered.

Dan_Solo

Magill wrote: »

I understand it fine, it is a very skilled sport, no doubt about it. Lots of hard training and lots of skill. But its certainly not this ridiculously hard sport that only some people are capable of competing in, as you made it out to be.

Why not? You could say the same about any sport. If it's so easy why don't you invest in a few irons and win a few tournaments? Millions to be made and it's "not this ridiculously hard sport" apparently.

Yourwellcum

TBH all this thread has shown is a natural bias towards peoples own sports or sports they are more interested in.

You cant compare competitors from different sports in the way people want to. There are too many factors to consider.

Katie is one of the greats for sure, but how do you say she is better than someone like Sonia O'Sullivan, Sean Kelly, Harrington etc. Its far too subjective to hold water as a legitimate argument.

Dan_Solo

walshb wrote: »

I get that well. So, I guess then using that logic boxers can't be considerd, nor can any sports that have not got the particpation level of what?, soccer, golf, running? Do you think this? Just asking.

No, I very very specifically said this is not true and it cannot be proven either way. All it means is that it is less likely that being the best out of 10 is easier than being the best out of 100. That best out of 10 could be the best out of 1,000,000, but we'll simply never know if there isn't the field out there.

walshb

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No, I very very specifically said this is not true and it cannot be proven either way. All it means is that it is less likely that being the best out of 10 is easier than being the best out of 100. That best out of 10 could be the best out of 1,000,000, but we'll simply never know if there isn't the field out there.

Fair enough, but I feel the fact that the sport is far more difficult and complex and tough than many other sports, that the participant level will be naturally smaller, hence one can make a strong case for Katie.

So, you saying "we'll never know" is moot IMO because of the nature and toughness of the sport of boxing. It will never have the same particpation as golf, running and soccer, at a certain level of proficiency.

But nail on the head from you earlier, a good chin wag hurt nobody!

walshb

Yourwellcum wrote: »

TBH all this thread has shown is a natural bias towards peoples own sports or sports they are more interested in.

You cant compare competitors from different sports in the way people want to. There are too many factors to consider.

Katie is one of the greats for sure, but how do you say she is better than someone like Sonia O'Sullivan, Sean Kelly, Harrington etc. Its far too subjective to hold water as a legitimate argument.

It sure is, but don't you love a debate?

Magill

cowzerp wrote: »

A proper Boxer could easily do the marathon without ever training for it, a marathon runner would be bollixed after a real round of boxing, and stopped badly if in with a good boxer. You my friend are clueless

God... Do you think before you type this dribble ?

Yes a good boxer would destroy a good marathon runner in a boxing match... just like a good marathon runner would leave a good boxer for dead in a marathon. Why is that so hard to comprehend ? Are you 10 years old ?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why not? You could say the same about any sport. If it's so easy why don't you invest in a few irons and win a few tournaments? Millions to be made and it's "not this ridiculously hard sport" apparently.

I did say it about any sport.... did you even read what i was replying to ? jesus. He was suggesting that only some people are capable of competing (On any level in boxing), i said that its clearly not as tough as he is making it out to be. I didn't say its not hard to be the best, but to simple compete, like any sport, doesn't take a lot of skill and practice (He said 3 months training and you could complete a marathon, im just saying 3 months and you could have your first boxing match aswel, if not a lot sooner.).

Too be the best in the world, at any of these sports takes a long time and a lot of practice.