Eminem

Paully D

I've been listening to a lot of his older stuff recently, brings back great memories of when he first came on the scene.

Makes you realise just how good he was

MD1990

legend
a pity his recent material is nowhere near as good as his early work
but his first 3 albums were so good it was only gonna go down from them

kyle123

was? i still think his new stuff is great. alot differant from his early stuff but i still think hes awesome :P not many rappers have been around for as long as he has and he still rocks the charts when he releases his stuff.

conor.hogan.2

He is a lot like the star wars really. (if you like star wars and find the good in the prequels)

Paully D

Yeah don't get me wrong, I really like Recovery too, but his older stuff (Slim Shady LP, Marshall Mathers LP and even The Eminem Show) is on another planet.

Mikeyt086

I can't listen to his new stuff. He just SHOUTS every other WORD for EMPHASIS. Sounds really miserable. Then I saw his Coachella performance and unlike Dre, Snoop, Wiz, Kendrick who were having a great time he was so apathetic. He's almost emo now at this stage.

Give me this drug fuelled Em any day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brS8KxkgE_I

danbrosnan

MD1990 wrote: »

legend
a pity his recent material is nowhere near as good as his early work
but his first 3 albums were so good it was only gonna go down from them

Do not agree, at all with some of the comments.... I think that musicians have to evolve, personally if Eminem kept going the way he was then he would be dead first off... Secondly if people and things don't change they stay stagnant, look at all the rappers & musicians that have not changed... Biggest example of this is 50 cent in my opinion he hasn't changed one bit and he has being brutal since his second album... For me as a music fan, Eminem was much more then your average rapper, he was an emotive rapper, who wrote songs, and let me stress all his best songs were wrote on emotion.... This is why his fan base was massive we could all relate to him much much more then your average rapper/musician... It was in his personality to change and become better as i think he did... I don't believe any of his albums were rubbish some better then others, Yes, but i still went out and bought them... His first three albums were amazing but he could not keep rapping in the same context and style... Recovery for me was a very very good album and you have to remember that not only is he a rapper now but a Brand, a brand that is worth millions and to keep a brand going you must play to the masses and i think he has done this properly and dignified... His album Recovery was an album about recovery from addiction and has helped millions of people all over the world with there own demons so i think not only has he changed but has become the best Rapper of All Time.:D

Boom_Bap

I've offered my dissertation on Eminem a few times over the recent years on this forum, but i'll give the skinny as there are a few new people knocking around the hip hop forum these days.

Firstly and most importantly, Eminem is one of the technically most gifted rappers, his rhyming schemes (inner and outer), pattern matching, delivery, subject matter.....basically anything an MC needs, he has it in abundance and is gifted in every aspect.

His explosion on to the 'scene' before being heard or signed by Dre was insane. Put it this way, I remember me and a few friends heard him on a strech armstrong freestyle, we then spend hours getting everything we could by him after that. Bear in mind, this was the day of 56k modems and streaming a track online took about 8 days....in fact there are probably some tracks still buffering somewhere as I write
Luckily he then started putting out tracks with Rawkus so we were able to buy physicals of his work. Then the whole hoopla of signing with Dre and putting out SSLP really catapulted him to the limelight. With the right production team and marketing behind him, his talents were taken and molded into something great.

This wave rode for a while until the key change in his career. And NO, it is not giving up drugs or whatever. It was when he started to produce. This in my opinion was his downfall. He is and was not a good producer. But i think his ego took over and too many 'yes' men around him convinced him that he could produce. His beats sounded the same and he had to change his subject matter and mood to rap over his own beats. This is when he lost his direction, again, not the drugs, it was his production.

From that point on he has tried to claw his way back to being that guy he was in his early recordings, and at the same time trying to adapt his music to what is commercially viable in the past few years. In my opinion we are only starting to see glimpses of him getting back into a zone in his last album and the EP with Royce.

But throughout this time, no-one can argue that he deteriorated as an MC. Lost direction, yes, but his skills are still evident on all his albums. Its just the whole package around him is not right. I'm sure his personal struggles have not helped over the years, but people putting his change down to detoxing is nonsence. I think that he has even been convinced that it has been his detox that has affected his music, I think that he has even publicly apoplogised for Relapse and blamed it on coming down.

I've started to ramble now, but I think that I should conclude that Em has one of the technically greatest verses of all time on Renegade. It sets the bar for what every other MC should be striving to do.

danbrosnan

One thing i agree with is that Renegade was properly one of his best verses.....

But thats all i agree with to be honest...

How can you say that its just the last few albums that he was producing in... He was helping out producing since his first ever release with the Bass Brothers in Detroit....

Yes he has become commercial.... and yes his not underground with raw & violent lyrics but if anything for me he has become better....

Now i will say that me personally i take my music very personal and i am completely loyal, if you said Nas was falling off or Jay Z was gone, or Kano wasn't the best rapper in england, i would argue against you...

So i can understand why people will say he is not as good as he was, because what he was, is what they like.... But still Drug Ballad is my favorite song by Eminem and at that time i was into every class a known to man so maybe i have changed myself... Just a taught but i do respect your opinion..

And just for taught it is believed between production and his own albums and duets etc....

Eminem has sold well over 100million albums.:D:D;)

Now do sales matter???

conor.hogan.2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

It was when he started to produce. This in my opinion was his downfall. He is and was not a good producer. But i think his ego took over and too many 'yes' men around him convinced him that he could produce. His beats sounded the same and he had to change his subject matter and mood to rap over his own beats. This is when he lost his direction, again, not the drugs, it was his production.

I think that he has even publicly apoplogised for Relapse and blamed it on coming down.

I've started to ramble now, but I think that I should conclude that Em has one of the technically greatest verses of all time on Renegade. It sets the bar for what every other MC should be striving to do.

Didn't he producer (bits and pieces) on infinite and every album since? Or are you saying there was a moment around 2004/5 that he got full on into producing that changed his style?

Renegade being one (great beat) he was main(?) producer on?

Personally I think if he wanted to apologize for Relapse then that is that (personally it was one of the worst albums I paid for ever)

danbrosnan wrote: »

Now do sales matter???

No.

Boom_Bap

danbrosnan wrote: »

One thing i agree with is that Renegade was properly one of his best verses.....

But thats all i agree with to be honest...

How can you say that its just the last few albums that he was producing in... He was helping out producing since his first ever release with the Bass Brothers in Detroit....

Yes he has become commercial.... and yes his not underground with raw & violent lyrics but if anything for me he has become better....

Now i will say that me personally i take my music very personal and i am completely loyal, if you said Nas was falling off or Jay Z was gone, or Kano wasn't the best rapper in england, i would argue against you...

So i can understand why people will say he is not as good as he was, because what he was, is what they like.... But still Drug Ballad is my favorite song by Eminem and at that time i was into every class a known to man so maybe i have changed myself... Just a taught but i do respect your opinion..

And just for taught it is believed between production and his own albums and duets etc....

Eminem has sold well over 100million albums.:D:D;)

Now do sales matter???

I try to listen to music without sales numbers clouding my judgement. Just because something sells well, it doesnt mean that it's good. In fact one of my favorite albums 'Rebel Yellow' by Cecil Otter, or POS's 'Audition' have probably not sold may units at all, but thier quality is far superior to any Eminem album.......my opinion!

Dont get me wrong, there are albums that have sold well, and are quality as well. But it doesnt come into my reasoning for liking something sonicaly.

What I was trying to convey in my earlier post is that over the course of his career to date, lyrically, he has been great. But being a good MC does not complete the package. For example, Canibus is a beast of an MC, but his choices and direction when releasing music was terrible. The production, direction...even down to the album sleeves were terrible (Until C of Tranquility, which was nice all round). Em fell into that, there is no dispute about his ability, but the end product hasnt been right.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Didn't he producer (bits and pieces) on infinite and every album since? Or are you saying there was a moment around 2004/5 that he got full on into producing that changed his style?

Renegade being one (great beat) he was main(?) producer on?

Personally I think if he wanted to apologize for Relapse then that is that (personally it was one of the worst albums I paid for ever)

.

He dabbled early on, or provided some input, but when he got full blown behind the boards and took full control is when I think things turned bad. I think the catalyst for this was his anti George Bush song, and the stream of songs that he produced before and followed that sounded damn near identical, dark and moody, similiar drums and patterns, etc.

You'll notice that since he has taken a step back from that, things have started to improve.

To sum up, great rapper, terrible producer.

MD1990

danbrosnan wrote: »

Do not agree, at all with some of the comments.... I think that musicians have to evolve, personally if Eminem kept going the way he was then he would be dead first off... Secondly if people and things don't change they stay stagnant, look at all the rappers & musicians that have not changed... Biggest example of this is 50 cent in my opinion he hasn't changed one bit and he has being brutal since his second album... For me as a music fan, Eminem was much more then your average rapper, he was an emotive rapper, who wrote songs, and let me stress all his best songs were wrote on emotion.... This is why his fan base was massive we could all relate to him much much more then your average rapper/musician... It was in his personality to change and become better as i think he did... I don't believe any of his albums were rubbish some better then others, Yes, but i still went out and bought them... His first three albums were amazing but he could not keep rapping in the same context and style... Recovery for me was a very very good album and you have to remember that not only is he a rapper now but a Brand, a brand that is worth millions and to keep a brand going you must play to the masses and i think he has done this properly and dignified... His album Recovery was an album about recovery from addiction and has helped millions of people all over the world with there own demons so i think not only has he changed but has become the best Rapper of All Time.:D

i really like Recovery too
but it is not as good as his first 3 albums

conor.hogan.2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

He dabbled early on, or provided some input, but when he got full blown behind the boards and took full control is when I think things turned bad. I think the catalyst for this was his anti George Bush song, and the stream of songs that he produced before and followed that sounded damn near identical, dark and moody, similiar drums and patterns, etc.

You'll notice that since he has taken a step back from that, things have started to improve.

To sum up, great rapper, terrible producer.

Are you sure he got more into producing around the time of Mosh? Or was that just the beginning of the end (coincidentally they match up?)

I still think it was the drugs, as good as parts of relapse were and more parts of recovery were they are nowhere near his older stuff of even Encore and it has nothing to do with progression or change they are just worse albums.

Boom_Bap

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Are you sure he got more into producing around the time of Mosh? Or was that just the beginning of the end (coincidentally they match up?)

I still think it was the drugs, as good as parts of relapse were and more parts of recovery were they are nowhere near his older stuff of even Encore and it has nothing to do with progression or change they are just worse albums.

I had to google a bit, it was on The Eminem Show when he started to take a more hands on role in production.

Dont get me wrong, I think the drugs and subsequent comedown has had an impact, i'm just looking at the tipping point which in my opinion is the production.

I think it's natural progression for a hip hop artist to want to get more hands on in the studio, but if it's not working, they should step back. Em did eventually, but I think he stayed in that 'producer mode' for a bit too long.

Da Shins Kelly

I think he was great and has written some classics, but he ain't what he used to be.

conor.hogan.2

Boom_Bap wrote: »

But being a good MC does not complete the package. For example, Canibus is a beast of an MC, but his choices and direction when releasing music was terrible. The production, direction...even down to the album sleeves were terrible (Until C of Tranquility, which was nice all round). Em fell into that, there is no dispute about his ability, but the end product hasnt been right.

He made some serious errors, time after time. He is case in point of why being a success does not come down to just being a great MC.

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I had to google a bit, it was on The Eminem Show when he started to take a more hands on role in production.

Dont get me wrong, I think the drugs and subsequent comedown has had an impact, i'm just looking at the tipping point which in my opinion is the production.

I think it's natural progression for a hip hop artist to want to get more hands on in the studio, but if it's not working, they should step back. Em did eventually, but I think he stayed in that 'producer mode' for a bit too long.

Alright, personally I think he was good on songs during and after that album but since the hiatus he has not been the same (and being sober is the majority of the reason imo, but a lot happened in that time too)

I will agree in a sense about him being a bad producer in the sense that he should never ever be allowed near a Biggie or a 2Pac track again but he has some good production behind him too.

horsebox09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzHnNPLWsDQ

Em needs somebody to piss him off again, he thrives off having to something to prove.

If he starts using his normal delivery and rapping unhinged again like he was back in '09 and during his freestyles, then I'll be happy

conor.hogan.2

That was semi funny in 2002 (dissing mariah started then), now I think he is actually "obsessed" with her.

Bobby Baccala

The mans a musical genius, from infinite to the eminem show were his best days imo. After that he slowly but surely began to get worse and worse.

Then there's shít like "crack a bottle" and "We made you" What the fúck are they? Disgusting production on them, and I'm not even sure who produced them.
You may say he's a shít producer, and he's not great at all, but most of his beats are better than the majority of music even remotely hip hop in the mainstream right now.

It's sort of bitter sweet that he got off the drugs, bitter in the sense that his music will never be as good as it was with the drugs, sweet in the sense that he won't just keel over and die on us like he could have had he stayed on them.

Relapse and recovery are shít. Fact.

Jimmy Iovine

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

The mans a musical genius, from infinite to the eminem show were his best days imo. After that he slowly but surely began to get worse and worse.

Then there's shít like "crack a bottle" and "We made you" What the fúck are they? Disgusting production on them, and I'm not even sure who produced them.
You may say he's a shít producer, and he's not great at all, but most of his beats are better than the majority of music even remotely hip hop in the mainstream right now.

It's sort of bitter sweet that he got off the drugs, bitter in the sense that his music will never be as good as it was with the drugs, sweet in the sense that he won't just keel over and die on us like he could have had he stayed on them.

Relapse and recovery are shít. Fact.

Dre produced the beat for the two of them.

Em has had some pretty poor beats at times over the years. The only one that I like and think is any good is the one he did for Jigga on Moment of Clarity. They all sound the exact same though and you can pick an Eminem beat out from a mile away.

As an MC he's amazing. Stan, Lose Yourself, Till I Collapse are all sensational songs.

I bought both of his latest albums. I had them on play for a few weeks. I played Recovery significantly less though. There are some decent enough songs on it but I've deleted it off my iPod to make space for other better music and I haven't listened to it fully in over a year.

superstoner90

Eminem is class, He rised above it all. He also opend the door to white rappers.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Dre produced the beat for the two of them.
.

He did. Crap beats to match a crap flow. bee da buddle a too ra doodle.

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I played Recovery significantly less though. There are some decent enough songs on it but I've deleted it off my iPod to make space for other better music and I haven't listened to it fully in over a year.

Is that just the way it worked out or do you prefer Relapse to Recovery?
Because if so I think you are mixing the two up.

superstoner90 wrote: »

He also opend the door to white rappers.

Not really. He is the most successful white rapper though. (but then again he is the most successful rapper, period)

Jimmy Iovine

superstoner90 wrote: »

Eminem is class, He rised above it all. He also opend the door to white rappers.

I dunno. Did the Beastie Boys not open the door for white rappers? Eminem was just the first one that was a commercial and critical success and not a joke (Vanilla Ice).

Em kind of reached out to a different demographic and I'm sure he has gotten a lot of people into rap. There is still not really any white rapper who has had any commercial success is there? The only one that I can remember who has kind of gotten close was Asher Roth but then he fell off again when everyone realised he was brutal.

The best would be stuck in the underground but I'm sure they've been there since the start anyway.

conor.hogan.2

Beasties obviously, but shout out to Blondie too

MC Serch, Vanilla Ice (yes, if you giggled you did not look deep enough), House of pain, RATM, ICP and countless more during Ems time.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Is that just the way it worked out or do you prefer Relapse to Recovery?
Because if so I think you are mixing the two up.

No I put it down to a few things. Firstly I only really got into rap in '06. At that stage Eminem was dead/fat take your pick. I was also only into the chart music because I knew nobody who could point me to good music.

Then Relapse dropped and I went mad. Mainly because I thought I'd never hear another Em album. I listened to it a good bit but I honestly can't remember any of the songs off it any more.

When Recovery came out I was more into underground artists and stuff so I was trying to listen to as much as I could in a limited time and Recovery got played for 2 weeks probably. After that I ignored it.

I've progressed even more now and I've so much music that I don't have space for either of them albums so I had to delete both of them. I have the physical copies but that's it. I might put them back on in a while when I get an iPod with more space on it.

I prefer neither of them. I've heard 5/6 albums this year alone that are twice as good.

Em during his "Lose Yourself" and "Stan" stage would have wiped most the floor with some of those albums though.

conor.hogan.2

Oh ok, makes sense. (Both are trash, but Recovery is several times better imo)

160GB iPod (classic) ftw.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Oh ok, makes sense. (Both are trash, but Recovery is several times better imo)

160GB iPod (classic) ftw.

I've got a 16 GB touch at the moment. Got it for free 3 years ago. It's been a great servant to me for all these years. I'm going to bump it up to a 64 GB though soon enough. The apps are brilliant and it should last me a while.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I've got a 16 GB touch at the moment. Got it for free 3 years ago. It's been a great servant to me for all these years. I'm going to bump it up to a 64 GB though soon enough. The apps are brilliant and it should last me a while.

Ah a Touch, yeah they only go up to 64GB I think but can mostly act as a smartphone.

superstoner90

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Beasties obviously, but shout out to Blondie too

MC Serch, Vanilla Ice (yes, if you giggled you did not look deep enough), House of pain, RATM, ICP and countless more during Ems time.

Out of that list I only heard of Vanilla ice and that was when he calabriated with jedward.

Bobby Baccala

superstoner90 wrote: »

Out of that list I only heard of Vanilla ice and that was when he calabriated with jedward.

For the love of god please tell me you're lying.

conor.hogan.2

superstoner90 wrote: »

that was when he calabriated with jedward.

and double

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

For the love of god please tell me you're lying.

I know! I picked the most famous examples I could think of!

mufcboy1999

i find it hilarious when people compare em to his older stuff like their favorite rappers are still making good music/albums. I think eminem is a very easy target for the simple fact he's the biggest rapper on the planet, if you want to compare his new stuff to his old and call it rubbish etc you'd have to say the very exact same for the likes of jay z, nas ,50 cent, game, snoop, ice cube etc etc i could literally go on and on.

some of these rappers have set the bar so high with their early work that theirs only one way to go and thats down, the odd time we might get something good from them but not on the level of before because like it or not the music isnt the only factor in creating a classic... hype, publicity, mentors, era, fan base, brainwashing, bandwagons etc all have a role to play in creating a classic.

a bit stupid? i think not, im sure theirs plenty of underground material out their thats just as good but will never be deemed classics as the artists dont appeal to the public.

Iv said it a few times here before but really just think about it, why would eminem try to create the likes of another MMLP when he's already done it? why do you want the old eminem? would it not make sense for an artist to progress his music and actually mature as an artist like the recovery album reflected?

its actually mind boggling because if em gave us the same material as he did before you'd all be complaining that its recycled and pathetic that a 30/40 odd year old is rapping from the perspective of a man in his mid 20s of his face on drugs and the result of that was relapse.

I rest my case

conor.hogan.2

Nope, I can only speak personaly, and personaly the vast majority of what he has released since 2005/6 has been trash imo.

Trash by most peoples standards (not just when compared to his older stuff

He even apologized for one of the albums and scrapped pretty much everyone on his label before that.

Cube the guy that came out in the 80's yeah, that is a fair comparison. Em has been on top for 14 years (max) not 24 or longer with the likes of PE and KRS and even Rakim.

He does not need to create another MMLP just don't rap like an idiot in stupid accents about stupid things and don't get on stage looking like you are watching pain dry!

If Recovery/Relapse were released as one album without the nonsense and he we forgot about the rest of the music from say 2006-9 then it would be as good (yet different) to his older stuff.

mufcboy1999

He even apologized for one of the albums and scrapped pretty much everyone on his label before that.

its actually mind boggling because if em gave us the same material as he did before you'd all be complaining that its recycled and pathetic that a 30/40 odd year old is rapping from the perspective of a man in his mid 20s of his face on drugs and the result of that was relapse.

i guess its down to how much of a fan you are of the artist because you think the game's new material is better than his old and that he's also progressing but yet you cant see clear progression in eminem that was the recovery album something completely different than he's ever gave us

conor.hogan.2

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

i guess its down to how much of a fan you are of the artist because you think the game's new material is better than his old and that he's also progressing but yet you cant see clear progression in eminem that was the recovery album something completely different than he's ever gave us

You are pretty obsessed with the Game so I will just ignore that.

I am a fan of good rapping. Eagerly awaiting his next album if he releases one and if he does I know it will be a lot better than the last two abominations.

Recovery was good, but still nonsense besides a few songs as I said if he combined it with Recovery he would have had a great album.

Different, yes. Different as in good? Some of it yes, most of it no imo.

Do you honestly rate Recovery on any level near any of the rest of his work or any of the albums of 2009?

Bobby Baccala

All "veteran" rappers music has dipped in quality in the past few years years, I'll say that about any of my favourite rappers, not only eminem. He's not immune to criticism like some of his fans think he is.

superstoner90

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

For the love of god please tell me you're lying.

Lying about only ever hearing about Vanilla Ice out of this list

or


Vanilla ice calabrating with jedward?

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You are pretty obsessed with the Game so I will just ignore that.

Recovery was good, but still nonsense besides a few songs as I said if he combined it with Recovery he would have had a great album.

no need for the sly dig, just trying to make sense of how your coming across by trying to prove how hypocritical and clueless your looking bashing one artist while one of your favorites has just put out by all means a shocker of an album but yet you somehow think he's getting better lol.

iv heard you call recovery rubbish more than once here too so no point in calling it a good album now. i assume you mean relapse and tbh their both completely different albums lets just clarify that , listen to the content they wouldn't blend with each other at all.

relapse was em trying his best to deliver his old content mashed up with depression and desperation not too mention doing this sober and in a pathetic accent while recovery was well a recovery in every sense of the word, it was a new eminem.

conor.hogan.2

Of course no rapper has had hit after hit.

But I do not know of any of them who:

1 - apologized for songs/albums
2 - had a universally hated new style/voice of rapping
3 - got on stage and looked like they were watching paint dry

I "bash" the artist that deserves the criticism - it is the topic being discussed….

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

it was a new eminem.

Agreed it had some great songs, and a lot of filler (mixing the best of those two albums would have made one good album).

( If you want to discuss Game, which you often seem to want to, start a new thread
Also Game is not my favorite rapper (even in top 10 of current rappers even whereas I would rate Eminem in my top10 of all time and neither of those two points affects my opinions on how bad Eminem has become (in general) over the last several years ) )

I bought 6 Eminem albums btw (altho the last two were presents) so I am a huge huge fan. First album I ever bought was SSLP.

mufcboy1999

Of course no rapper has had hit after hit.

But I do not know of any of them who:

1 - apologized for songs/albums
2 - had a universally hated new style/voice of rapping
3 - got on stage and looked like they were watching paint dry

I "bash" the artist that deserves the criticism - it is the topic being discussed….

i have nothing but admiration for the man for coming out and actually bashing his own music, he knew he short changed his fans and that took balls. How many rappers do you know that have put out rubbish albums and actually come out and said it? instead of claiming its better than all his previous work and all that rubbish.

Agreed it had some great songs, and a lot of filler (mixing the best of those two albums would have made one good album).

dont agree with that at all, an album is an album based on what it is. if you start going into that there's literally loads of albums from artists that would be great if mixed with their previous despite comebacks,problems etc. An album is judged on what is presented, if you want to play fantasy albums go make a playlist and put it on your ipod.

( If you want to discuss Game, which you often seem to want to, start a new thread
Also Game is not my favorite rapper (even in top 10 of current rappers even whereas I would rate Eminem in my top10 of all time and neither of those two points affects my opinions on how bad Eminem has become (in general) over the last several years ) )

nothing to do with discussing him, i was trying to make relevance of how hypocritical and to be honest confusing your argument is sounding by having such opposite opinions on one artist you think is improving and another that you dont when clearly the one your bashing has progressed his sound so much that he actually deserves credit not criticism imo.

conor.hogan.2

I agree, fair play to him for holding his hands up - it does take courage.

Comparing making relapse/recovery into one album is a unique situation. I am hardly saying what if The Chronic and 2001 were one album no am I?

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

nothing to do with discussing him, i was trying to make relevance of how hypocritical and to be honest confusing your argument is sounding by having such opposite opinions on one artist you think is improving and another that you dont when clearly the one your bashing has progressed his sound so much that he actually deserves credit not criticism imo.

No, you were diluting the discussion and diverting away from the points.
I think Game is improving but as I said I never bought any of his albums and he has done well without the help of 50 and Dre (for the most part) and that is "improving" imo not that it is in any way relevant to Eminem. (his sales have also plummeted like Eminems too, to scale)

Eminem is even terrible live now too.

Well (again) we will have to agree to disagree. But critically and sales wise he has plummeted.

mufcboy1999

Comparing making relapse/recovery into one album is a unique situation. I am hardly saying what if The Chronic and 2001 were one album no am I?

its still fantasy and what if talk, no point in it.

Eminem is even terrible live now too.

agreed but anyone on as much gear as he was on was going to have a fall from grace , look at dmx when he's sober compared to when he's of his face you'd cop it a mile away.

its a bit like getting piss*d and being the life of the party and having to do it the next night again sober, bound to be less energetic, entertaining etc.

people forget sometimes that depression is a serious illness , its not that easy to get over and clearly em imo still appears to suffer a bit and who can blame the man but at least he's trying and not hiding like he was for years.

Well (again) we will have to agree to disagree. But critically and sales wise he has plummeted.

no problem but in fairness what rapper hasnt plummeted sales wises but he still dominates the charts and sells more than most when he puts anything out no matter what people think of his music, still the biggest rapper hip hop has ever seen and tbh probably ever will.

conor.hogan.2

DMX is still good live, less so than before but in fairness he is not even comparable to paint dry Eminem at Coachella.

Ye, Depression he had it. Rapping should not be a priority for him if he was still seriously depressed. I doubt he still is depressed, he is off the sleeping pills and has released 2 albums.

Agreed he is the biggest rapper and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, does not make him immune to criticism.

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

Bobby Baccala

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

conor.hogan.2

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

My bad, I knew someone said it and it is quite true.

Not to say he is not an amazing rapper but he sells a lot more than other rappers of similar or better ability but then again so does Drake/Wayne/Wale/whoever and at least Eminem is actually very talented.

Jimmy Iovine

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

Yea I probably did say it. He is one of only a small handful of people that can do it. He has fans now that weren't even alive when he released the Slim Shady LP.

It's kind of good in a way that there is someone who is on that level in hip hop. He's up there with the Gagas and Rihannas of the world as sad and all as it makes me to say that.

It's possible that he feels he has 3 classics in the bag and that he doesn't really need to work hard enough to get another. He genuinely could put out anything and it'd be a number 1. It'd be a disaster with the critics but maybe he doesn't think like that.

I don't know. I hope he can put out another album that gets back near to the level of his first 3 but then again I also hope one day that I'll have sex with Scarlett Johansson. One of them is more likely and delightfully it's probably the one involving me and Scarlett. She got divorced last year so I'm in with a big chance I think :P.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

He has fans now that weren't even alive when he released the Slim Shady LP.

Jesus, wait to make me feel old.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Jesus, wait to make me feel old.

Ha I'm probably the same age as you. It doesn't make me feel as old as seeing youngsters making their debut for United who cost €20 million and are 3 years younger than me though.

Also thinking about it, I reckon the moment Em's music went downhill was when he stopped bleaching his hair. His first five albums (including Infinite and Encore to an extent) were very good. After that they were rubbish and I blame it all on his newer, more mature look.

We should start up a petition to get him to dye his hair again.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Ha I'm probably the same age as you. It doesn't make me feel as old as seeing youngsters making their debut for United who cost €20 million and are 3 years younger than me though.

Also thinking about it, I reckon the moment Em's music went downhill was when he stopped bleaching his hair. His first five albums (including Infinite and Eminem Show to an extent) were very good. After that they were rubbish and I blame it all on his newer, more mature look.

We should start up a petition to get him to dye his hair again.

Probably, but that makes me feel old that a majority of his fans are (probably) around the age I was when I bought MMLP.

I would go with the hiatus and the getting clean and Proof and his wife having more an impact on him getting worse but him "killing" off slim shady was when he stopped with the blonde (iirc) so you are right I suppose he started to "mature" but 100's of other MCs matured and continued to release consistent music.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Probably, but that makes me feel old that a majority of his fans are (probably) around the age I was when I bought MMLP.

I would go with the hiatus and the getting clean and Proof and his wife having more an impact on him getting worse but him "killing" off slim shady was when he stopped with the blonde (iirc) so you are right I suppose he started to "mature" but 100's of other MCs matured and continued to release consistent music.

I dunno if he killed Shady off then. I think a few of his songs from Relapse were still in that Slim vibe. I haven't a copy to play now so I can't say for certain. He definitely wasn't on Recovery anyway.

The more I think about Em maturing and his newer music not being as good, the more I place the blame on him maturing in the first place. His first 3 albums are among the most emotionally intense albums ever released I feel. He was in a certain drug-addled mindset at that stage and he was angry. He was angry with everyone from his mother, to Kim, to George Bush to white America.

He then took time off to sober up and reflect on his life. When he came back he was angry with Kim Kardashian and Britney. I think he was more at peace with himself and he tried to focus his anger at the drugs. That didn't really work out.

He was slightly better on Recovery. It didn't work again though. There was a kind of emotional disconnect on some of the songs. He was rapping about the same kind of things that he did early in his career but they didn't have nearly the same impact.

The death of Proof, his overdose and subsequent rehabilitation have taken a lot out of him as can be expected. It has definitely taken a lot of the creative and venomous bite out of his music. For that reason I don't think he'll ever hit his previous heights again. He may well put out another "Stan" or "Lose Yourself", but he'll never again have a classic.

He will continue to sell gazillions. The EP he put out with Royce last year was only the third EP in chart history to get to number 1. If Royce did that same EP with anyone else and had the exact same chemistry with them it'd have struggled to sell 20,000 I think. Em has the commercial "it" factor that everyone else in the industry strives to get for one single. He has had it for 13 years now, and he doesn't look like slowing down soon.

horsebox09

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

Em could take a crap in a cd case and it would sell millions, as proved with Encore :pac: so you're right about his sales

On a side note, it looks like I'm the only one on here that likes Relapse; it's certainly ahead of Recovery for me