#12M15M Global Day of Action

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Fair enough but you didn't make that clear in your original post. For most of this thread you were defending the protests. At the last minute you denied you had anything to do with them. Sounds like Peter in the Garden.

I'll defend anyone's right to protest being a democrat and believer in freedom of speech. Maybe I'm over optimistic but history is full of people who aimed high and did things that others laughed at. Full employment sounds like a very high bar but its not impossible, a computer on every desk was mocked not so long ago.
Right now the exact same corruption is happening and there is no one fighting against it. Transparency is key to solving this its a worthy goal. Its easy to pick out a few words and snigger but that's what they did to MLK and Ghandi also.

Dr Galen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Two alternatives in my mind:
1: Make them pay it back, with interest - just like they dowhen they give people money. Fair's fair.
2: Let them fail, just like any other private company would when it f*cks things up. Force banks to separate their lending and depositing businesses so as savers won't be burned if a lender overlends and goes bankrupt.

Another possible third option would be to redefine the weight of different forms of investment, so as a bondholder is not equal to a saver, and savers can be guaranteed without protecting the speculators.

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with more when I'm properly awake

Essentially, banks should not be above society. They should be treated exactly as every other type of business. If the financial system's structure makes this impossible, then it's that system which needs to be overhauled. We should not have to overhaul our society to fit their model.

I don't always agree with you HP, I don't think you ideas would work a lot of the time, but at least you give a crap, in a way that isn't just ranty and obscure and you don't hide when asked a question. If more of the "protestors" had your attitude I actually think they would gain a lot more traction with the public at large.

Dr Galen

20Cent wrote: »

I'll defend anyone's right to protest being a democrat and believer in freedom of speech. Maybe I'm over optimistic but history is full of people who aimed high and did things that others laughed at. Full employment sounds like a very high bar but its not impossible, a computer on every desk was mocked not so long ago.
Right now the exact same corruption is happening and there is no one fighting against it. Transparency is key to solving this its a worthy goal. Its easy to pick out a few words and snigger but that's what they did to MLK and Ghandi also.

I'd stand with you on the free speech thing, no issue there, pretty much all of us here would.

It's not that you are overly optimistic, it's more misguided and dare I say it naive ( I mean that in the nicest way possible ). We had effective full employment only a few years ago, sadly that was due to the over inflation in the property market, which meant that if you could pick up a shovel, you got work. Those days are gone and will never return. IMHO it will be a generation before we get even close to that level of employment again. We just have too much of an overhang of unskilled workers, and it will take time to retrain all those people, and find something for them to do.

Any government will want as many people working as possible, less welfare + more tax take = profit after all. It has been shown many times though, that governments are pretty awful at job creation. What should happen is that government should create the conditions for others to create the jobs. Here, we still have endless red tape and bureaucracy, right from the start. Getting set up, and then afterwards. The amount of crap that gets saddled on the SME section in the country is a joke.

Political transparency is a tough one, because, what does that even mean?

Could we be doing better here? Absolutely, as I've said before, Dail reform is long overdue. How far down the chain do we go?

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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So you're for unemployment homelessness and giving billions to failed private banks?

Permabear wrote: »

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If you don't try you'll never know.

Permabear wrote: »

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People are doing jobs now that didn't even exist a year or two ago. Technology is moving at an amazing pace. If you described facebook to someone ten years ago and said it would be floating for close to 100 billion they would have laughed at you. Who knows what the future will bring. Good job there are people out there with vision to agitate for the country they want. Doing nothing never achieved anything that's for sure. I agree it is a very high bar and difficult thing to achieve but isn't everything worthwhile a struggle?

Protesters aren't expected to give detailed solutions to everything, they highlight issues and campaign in that direction. Cleaner air, less pollution, no war etc its then up to those with the power to make the changes to make them.

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

People are doing jobs now that didn't even exist a year or two ago. Technology is moving at an amazing pace.

Yes it is, isn’t it? That’s because some of us believe that going to work and doing something constructive with our day will achieve far more for humanity than sitting in a tent, scratching our collective arses and shouting “down with homework”.

20Cent wrote: »

Protesters aren't expected to give detailed solutions to everything...

I’d be happy if they could suggest one single practical solution to anything.

Permabear

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20Cent

This year’s Edelman trust barometer indicated that 70% of Irish people do not trust their government leaders to tell the truth. We are ranked 24 out of the 25 countries surveyed, with only Italy inspiring less trust.

TD Stephen Donnelly lists some of the things wrong with our political system.

http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/from-the-chamber/speech-the-failure-of-the-dail/

Looks like this guy has been inspired to start a new party.

Man to walk from Limerick to Dublin hoping to form new political party
http://www.thejournal.ie/man-to-walk-from-limerick-to-dublin-hoping-to-form-political-party-446500-May2012/

Looking at a particular action in isolation it is easy to dismiss it. Real change comes about from many small actions by lots of people Like those organising this march on Sat. Doubt anyone expects to see change the next day its a long process and they are taking part. It all ads up in the long run.

To quote Margaret Mead: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does”
Fair play to them for giving it a go and trying. Very funny that those who do nothing mock them!

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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But they are getting off their backsides and doing something. Trying to make their country a better place for everyone a good goal imo. Taking part in the political process is not whining its the opposite actually its taking positive action to improve everyone's lot. Making your voice heard is very admirable fair play to them.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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No where did I say that.

I wish more Irish people would get involved in politics and their communities whatever form that might take. Even libertarians

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

To quote Margaret Mead: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does”

The key word in that sentence is “thoughtful”.

20Cent wrote: »

Very funny that those who do nothing mock them!

I’m not doing nothing – I’m busy working. From my perspective, the people doing nothing are those sitting in tents.

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

But they are getting off their backsides and doing something. Trying to make their country a better place for everyone a good goal imo. Taking part in the political process is not whining its the opposite actually its taking positive action to improve everyone's lot. Making your voice heard is very admirable fair play to them.

And if the referendum is passed, will they fold up their tents and go away and leave the rest of us hard-working people to get on with saving our country through working hard and paying taxes?

20Cent

djpbarry wrote: »

The key word in that sentence is “thoughtful”.

Yep they are thoughtful, thinking of their fellow citizens very good of them.

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not doing nothing – I’m busy working. From my perspective, the people doing nothing are those sitting in tents.

Who's sitting in tents?
You're talking about Occupy Dame Street that got knocked down by the Gardai in the middle of the night weeks ago. Lots of people work and campaign for what they believe in the two are not mutually exclusive.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

And if the referendum is passed, will they fold up their tents and go away and leave the rest of us hard-working people to get on with saving our country through working hard and paying taxes?

Tents are gone weeks ago. Is the referendum going to end corruption in politics and a more transparent inclusive system?
As in the post above working hard and campaigning are not mutually exclusive many people can do both.

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Tents are gone weeks ago. Is the referendum going to end corruption in politics and a more transparent inclusive system?
As in the post above working hard and campaigning are not mutually exclusive many people can do both.

After the referendum, if it is passed, we will have had a general election electing a FG/Lab coalition and a plebiscite within eighteen months on their policies, what more do you need to tell you that the Irish people have spoken?

Unless of course you are Dev looking into your heart to know what the Irish people really think or a fascist who thinks he knows better than the electorate.

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

After the referendum, if it is passed, we will have had a general election electing a FG/Lab coalition and a plebiscite within eighteen months on their policies, what more do you need to tell you that the Irish people have spoken?

Unless of course you are Dev looking into your heart to know what the Irish people really think or a fascist who thinks he knows better than the electorate.

Citizens exercising their democratic rights is fascist now :rolleyes:

Jululan

Godge wrote: »

And if the referendum is passed, will they fold up their tents and go away and leave the rest of us hard-working people to get on with saving our country through working hard and paying taxes?

Thanks for the tip. Didn't realise the only way to save our country is to work hard and pay taxes.
It is working really well.
How people dare to protest!

Jonny7

Jululan wrote: »

How people dare to protest!

Would you back people who were protesting bad weather just because its "protesting"? The answer is no.

Sorry to be harsh, but if people are moronic enough to protest making impossible demands such as "full employment" or the "right to work", then they aren't exactly going to get much support, except by other morons who equally don't understand life.

Jululan

Jonny7 wrote: »

Would you back people who were protesting bad weather just because its "protesting"? The answer is no.

Sorry to be harsh, but if people are moronic enough to protest making impossible demands such as "full employment" or the "right to work", then they aren't exactly going to get much support, except by other morons who equally don't understand life.

I won't be protesting to demand "full employment" or "right to work". Please, use common sense and look a bit further. Irish Constitution recognises, as well, the right to work and it doesn't mean that you can go tomorrow to your local government to claim your job.

Jonny7

Ah, but I read the manifesto and the first few posts in this thread, so I have a fairly good idea of the IQ that will turn out for this

Better hurry, it starts soon! remember leave your iPhone's, Levi's and other evil corporate bourgeois goods at home, and if you get peckish after try to avoid BK and McDonald's.

sarumite

Jonny7 wrote: »

Ah, but I read the manifesto and the first few posts in this thread, so I have a fairly good idea of the IQ that will turn out for this

Better hurry, it starts soon! remember leave your iPhone's, Levi's and other evil corporate bourgeois goods at home, and if you get peckish after try to avoid BK and McDonald's

Thats just sound advice regardless of what you are doing.

RichieC

Permabear wrote: »

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No but using your wealth to bet against the state and bring ruin upon normal people is fine.

As long as you wear a suit and stick to the agenda, pb has no problem with you being an "activist"

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

Yep they are thoughtful, thinking of their fellow citizens...

I doubt it. I really do. If they were thinking about their fellow citizens, they’d be doing something constructive.

20Cent wrote: »

Who's sitting in tents?

Oh sorry – no tents this time? So they’ll just be sitting on their arses, sans tents? Well, summer is coming I suppose...

20Cent wrote: »

Is the referendum going to end corruption in politics and a more transparent inclusive system?

How do you propose we end corruption in politics? Bear in mind that zero corruption is a completely unattainable goal.

Permabear

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20Cent

djpbarry wrote: »

I doubt it. I really do. If they were thinking about their fellow citizens, they’d be doing something constructive.

Protesting for more democracy, transparency, freedom and against corruption isn't constructive?

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh sorry – no tents this time? So they’ll just be sitting on their arses, sans tents? Well, summer is coming I suppose...

They are marches not occupations.

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you propose we end corruption in politics? Bear in mind that zero corruption is a completely unattainable goal.

Agree it is probably impossible to have zero corruption but a reduction is certainly a good goal.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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100's of thousands of people marched in cities all over the world sending the message to politicians that citizens are more important than failed financial institutions. All over Europe there is a backlash against austerity measures and the tide is turning thanks to people power.

Correction hundreds of thousands not tens.

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

100's of thousands of people marched in cities all over the world sending the message to politicians that citizens are more important than failed financial institutions. All over Europe there is a backlash against austerity measures and the tide is turning thanks to people power.

Correction hundreds of thousands not tens.

Except in Ireland it seems. First the report on RTE about the protests:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0512/thousands-protest-in-spain-against-austerity.html

No mention of any protest in Dublin. Did it happen?

Now the referendum.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0512/gilmore-issues-warning-over-treaty-no-vote.html

It seems the SF/ULA axis of ignorance is failing, support for the Treaty continues to rise.

RobitTV

seems to be over 100,000 setting up camp in central madrid - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/march-in-spain-over-austerity/story-e6frf7jx-1226353957938

edanto

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, some of them (the ones that are more than a little cynical) sat at home and waited for their chance to be cynical online.

Others, like me, did little or nothing related to the protests, and worked on other things that had to be done. I came to the forum here to see if people were talking about what I'd heard was happening overseas..

And then in Spain, a whole group of people expressed their dissatisfaction. Do you think the debts of their banks will be foisted on the public?

This is Madrid's Puerta del Sol earlier this evening (photo - Reuters/Paul Hanna)



Permabear - you're a clever chap. Do you think the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is a good thing for our society? Are you more interested in maintaining the status quo or changing it?

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

Protesting for more democracy, transparency, freedom and against corruption isn't constructive?

Not unless you've got specific goals in mind.

20Cent wrote: »

All over Europe there is a backlash against austerity measures...

I presume by "backlash against austerity" you mean "backlash against governments trying not to spend more than their revenue permits"?

Oh wait, I know the answer - we plug the gap by taxing the bejesus out of anyone who earns more than some arbitrary amount, right?

What's that? Ireland already does that? Oh noes!!!! But the government still don't take in nearly enough to fund welfare and public services!

Whatever shall we do 20Cent? What do the protesters want?

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Except in Ireland it seems. First the report on RTE about the protests:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0512/thousands-protest-in-spain-against-austerity.html

No mention of any protest in Dublin. Did it happen?

Now the referendum.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0512/gilmore-issues-warning-over-treaty-no-vote.html

It seems the SF/ULA axis of ignorance is failing, support for the Treaty continues to rise.

Yes the protest went ahead in Dublin. 100,000 people in Spain didn't make the RTE news on tv doubt the Dublin protest would be mentioned. JP Morgan losing 2billion gambling didn't make the news either, neither do most of the big unsecured bond payments. Wouldn't take RTE news as a barometer for whats important.

20Cent

djpbarry wrote: »

Not unless you've got specific goals in mind.
I presume by "backlash against austerity" you mean "backlash against governments trying not to spend more than their revenue permits"?

Oh wait, I know the answer - we plug the gap by taxing the bejesus out of anyone who earns more than some arbitrary amount, right?

What's that? Ireland already does that? Oh noes!!!! But the government still don't take in nearly enough to fund welfare and public services!

Whatever shall we do 20Cent? What do the protesters want?

The demands are on the first page of this thread.
France, Greece, Holland, Spain all turning against the failed "solutions" that are being hoisted on the people of Europe. Even the Germans have postponed ratifying the fiscal treaty. Change is in the air!

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

The demands are on the first page of this thread.

No, a bunch of wishy-washy ideals are listed at the beginning of the thread - I've yet to read anything about how any of it is to be achieved?

20Cent wrote: »

France, Greece, Holland, Spain all turning against the failed "solutions" that are being hoisted on the people of Europe.

Surely what has failed is the idea that governments can spend more than they can afford indefinitely?

20Cent wrote: »

Change is in the air!

What's going to change exactly? Are the protesters going to form some sort of credit company that will refinance government debt at a low, low rate, permitting European states to continue splashing the cash on public servants and welfare recipients?

Permabear

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K-9

20Cent wrote: »

The demands are on the first page of this thread.
France, Greece, Holland, Spain all turning against the failed "solutions" that are being hoisted on the people of Europe. Even the Germans have postponed ratifying the fiscal treaty. Change is in the air!

I don't think the main parties disagree that austerity is needed in France, Holland and even Spain, the issue is growth and investing wisely to create growth. Hollande basically said that yesterday. Greece as we all know is a completely different kettle of fish.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

Yes the protest went ahead in Dublin. 100,000 people in Spain didn't make the RTE news on tv doubt the Dublin protest would be mentioned. JP Morgan losing 2billion gambling didn't make the news either, neither do most of the big unsecured bond payments. Wouldn't take RTE news as a barometer for whats important.

The Spanish protests are front-page news around the world, as was the JPM story.

I think hardly a soul turned up in Dublin today and reading the beginning of this thread I can see why.

20Cent

K-9 wrote: »

I don't think the main parties disagree that austerity is needed in France, Holland and even Spain, the issue is growth and investing wisely to create growth. Hollande basically said that yesterday. Greece as we all know is a completely different kettle of fish.

So far the solution has been austerity only, now it looks like a growth package will be part of the fiscal treaty a good move in the right direction.

The Waltzing Consumer

20Cent wrote: »

So far the solution has been austerity only, now it looks like a growth package will be part of the fiscal treaty a good move in the right direction.

Eh, yeah, but a growth package has nothing to do with occupy or these protests. And to say austerity has been the only solution to these issues is nonsense.

20cent, it's pretty clear that no one actually turned up for this protest in Dublin as even you have not mentioned any numbers, it was probably the handful of occupy guys and maybe that millionaire property couple who got evicted that they are best friends with.

20Cent

Jonny7 wrote: »

The Spanish protests are front-page news around the world, as was the JPM story.

I think hardly a soul turned up in Dublin today and reading the beginning of this thread I can see why.

No its not. Nothing on any of the Irish frontpages about Spanish protests or JPM. Have the sunday times and the Sindo nothing anywhere about Spain and only one small article about JPM in the business section.
Which papers are you talking about?

I hear there was about 100 or so at the Dublin protest was working myself couldn't go.

20Cent

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Eh, yeah, but a growth package has nothing to do with occupy or these protests. And to say austerity has been the only solution to these issues is nonsense.

20cent, it's pretty clear that no one actually turned up for this protest in Dublin as even you have not mentioned any numbers, it was probably the handful of occupy guys and maybe that millionaire property couple who got evicted that they are best friends with.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

No its not. Nothing on any of the Irish frontpages about Spanish protests or JPM. Have the sunday times and the Sindo nothing anywhere about Spain and only one small article about JPM in the business section.
Which papers are you talking about?

I hear there was about 100 or so at the Dublin protest was working myself couldn't go.

Yes, front-page news across all the main news-sites I visit (which is a lot)

Here is Irish coverage.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&gl=ie&tbm=nws&q=spain+protest&oq=spain+protest&aq=f&aqi=d2&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.2643.4381.0.5520.13.2.0.11.11.0.87.171.2.2.0...0.0.#q=spain+protest&hl=en&gl=ie&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=ctr:countryIE&cr=countryIE&sa=X&ei=waCvT-jtMKrV0QX7p5CxCQ&ved=0CAkQpwUoAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f988678eff96e11&biw=1366&bih=643

Same with the JPM story.

The Dublin protest was too small to be reported on.

20Cent

Jonny7 wrote: »

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&gl=ie&tbm=nws&q=spain+protest&oq=spain+protest&aq=f&aqi=d2&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.2643.4381.0.5520.13.2.0.11.11.0.87.171.2.2.0...0.0.#q=spain+protest&hl=en&gl=ie&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=ctr:countryIE&cr=countryIE&sa=X&ei=waCvT-jtMKrV0QX7p5CxCQ&ved=0CAkQpwUoAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f988678eff96e11&biw=1366&bih=643

Same with the JPM story.

The Dublin protest was too small to be reported on.

Lots of things don't get reported on. I was at a protest before Christmas there were a few thousand at it. There was half a dozen floats, bands, music etc etc was like a mini St Patrick's day. Watched the tv news to see if there was anything about it there wasn't. Didn't hear it mentioned on the radio either. Wasn't expecting the Dublin march to get much or any press anyway but surely Spain is big news.

The Waltzing Consumer

20Cent wrote: »

Lots of things don't get reported on. I was at a protest before Christmas there were a few thousand at it. There was half a dozen floats, bands, music etc etc was like a mini St Patrick's day. Watched the tv news to see if there was anything about it there wasn't. Didn't hear it mentioned on the radio either. Wasn't expecting the Dublin march to get much or any press anyway but surely Spain is big news.

20cent, where did you get that image you posted of O'Connell Street? Do you have a link to the site? I tried searching it with google image but it is not returning any matches. You have said you were not at the protest so you must have found it somewhere.

20Cent

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

20cent, where did you get that image you posted of O'Connell Street? Do you have a link to the site? I tried searching it with google image but it is not returning any matches. You have said you were not at the protest so you must have found it somewhere.

Got it from facebook
Real Democracy Now Ireland

https://www.facebook.com/realdemocracynowireland

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

Got it from facebook
Real Democracy Now Ireland

https://www.facebook.com/realdemocracynowireland

I can't help but notice that you missed some of my questions in an earlier post. Here, let me repeat them for you:

djpbarry wrote: »

20Cent wrote: »

The demands are on the first page of this thread.

No, a bunch of wishy-washy ideals are listed at the beginning of the thread - I've yet to read anything about how any of it is to be achieved?

20Cent wrote: »

France, Greece, Holland, Spain all turning against the failed "solutions" that are being hoisted on the people of Europe.

Surely what has failed is the idea that governments can spend more than they can afford indefinitely?

20Cent wrote: »

Change is in the air!

What's going to change exactly? Are the protesters going to form some sort of credit company that will refinance government debt at a low, low rate, permitting European states to continue splashing the cash on public servants and welfare recipients?