Post Season thoughts

etloveslsd

As the post season is winding up and the trade deadline is fast approaching, I want to share some thoughts I had on the BFL off season:


Things that grinded my gears about post-season

“Elite”

This was my number one bug bearer. The word elite was bandied about so much. Let’s look at the word elite: “the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons”
In some respects every player in the NFL is elite, as there are approx. 2,000 players in the league and there are 6,840,507,003 people on planet Earth. In other respects there are only a very few players who are truly elite.

Some examples are:Troy Polamalu (SS) - 99 overall. The next best strong safety is Eric Berry who is 95 and then Chris Harris 91. Troy truly is elite as he is the best in his position and there is a significant drop off to the next player.


Take middle linebacker, no doubt an important part of the team. There were some eyebrows raised when Heli traded Timmons and Bush for MJD. Part of it was over Timmons “Eliteness”. Timmons is an excellent player and a beast, yes but elite? No. Look at the players who are better than him. Patrick Willis (98) and Jon Beason (97), even The Landshark who is 94 cannot be considered elite anymore. Timmons is 92, which makes him the 5th best MLB in the BFL, but not elite.




I’ll trade you him, but only if you replace him.
We have all had these trades where you ask about a player and the other person comes back and says he will only let the guy go if YOU replace him with a player in the same position. I’m sorry, am I looking after your teams too? I have enough trouble GMing my own team without having to stress over yours too. It is your responsibility to source you own players! Sure you can ask for a replacement but it should not be a deal breaker if it’s not there!!


Last off season I traded with Paddy for Drew Brees. Paddy offered Brees on his block looking for a QB and a DT. I offered him that and were sealed a deal very quickly. It left me with a gap at DT, but I went back into the market and traded for DT and do you know what? The guy I got in a later trade was better than the guy I sent to Paddy. Bi-Wining!!


I will concede that there are some instances where it should be necessary to look for a replacement. This past off season DangerDave traded his man crush Troy Polamalu (2nd mention, maybe I man crush him too, must be the hair). I think in that instance it is fair to look for a replacement, as Troy is elite.


In real terms could you imagine negotiations between The Patriots and The Cowboys like this?


Cowboys: - We want Wes Welker, what will it take for him?


Patriots: -We do like DeMarcus Ware, but you will have to replace Welker so you will have to include Miles Austin or Dez Bryant too, either would be fine.


No? Me either.

What is a Trade Block?
For this one I will compare to soccer. If you put someone on your trade block it is like transfer listing them. You should expect to take a loss on them.



I’m not suggesting for a moment that Haloti Ngata should be traded for Bernard Berrian, not that much of a loss. By placing someone on your trading block you are announcing that you are willing to part company with them. This also goes around when you offer for someone who is not on a trade block; you should expect to pay a little more.



Soccer example: Chelsea enquire about the availability of Fernando Torres who is not available, they pay £50million. Celtic asked about Shaun Maloney from Aston Villa, Villa wanted rid so he went for a million.

Danger_dave1

I agree ! With the elite business ! Some crazy things !

For me this off season that annoyed me was one people offering crazy trades to new people in the league. I'd take the Falcons as an example. Cullen Jenkins OVR 89 POT A before progression and the trades offered to him were unbalanced and largely unfavorable. ( I could use numerous other examples of new to newish coaches being offered horrible trades by people) I also think if i hadn't pmed some of the coaches a lot of those trades would have went ahead.

Another problem for me and it should be addressed for Madden 13. Making a trade for a player and then trading him away a in the post season. We strive for a sim league here. Thats not it !

From Madden 13 i think we need to put in a rule if you trade and get a player he needs to stay on your roster till the following off season.

matthew8

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

I agree ! With the elite business ! Some crazy things !

For me this off season that annoyed me was one people offering crazy trades to new people in the league. I'd take the Falcons as an example. Cullen Jenkins OVR 89 POT A before progression and the trades offered to him were unbalanced and largely unfavorable. ( I could use numerous other examples of new to newish coaches being offered horrible trades by people) I also think if i hadn't pmed some of the coaches a lot of those trades would have went ahead.

Another problem for me and it should be addressed for Madden 13. Making a trade for a player and then trading him away a in the post season. We strive for a sim league here. Thats not it !

From Madden 13 i think we need to put in a rule if you trade and get a player he needs to stay on your roster till the following off season.

If we are going to attach that to being a sim league then the trade commission thingy should go out the window, as well as rules for running up the score.

I actually disagree with all the things that annoyed you. Anyone can define elite however they want. And as for wanting a replacement, where's the problem with that? It's very rare that teams trade one player for another anyway in the real NFL, and of course you'd want a replacement if your backup is 20 points below.

etloveslsd

matthew8 wrote: »

If we are going to attach that to being a sim league then the trade commission thingy should go out the window, as well as rules for running up the score.

I actually disagree with all the things that annoyed you. Anyone can define elite however they want. And as for wanting a replacement, where's the problem with that? It's very rare that teams trade one player for another anyway in the real NFL, and of course you'd want a replacement if your backup is 20 points below.

The point I was making is people calling off deals because a replacement wasn't part of it. It's not up to me to source your team for you.

matthew8

etloveslsd wrote: »

The point I was making is people calling off deals because a replacement wasn't part of it. It's not up to me to source your team for you.

The guy who is wanting a replacement is nearly always the guy sending the better player, so that guy is the boss in the trade and he can decide whatever he wants in the trade.

etloveslsd

matthew8 wrote: »

The guy who is wanting a replacement is nearly always the guy sending the better player, so that guy is the boss in the trade and he can decide whatever he wants in the trade.

Then why trade him? If you are trading a 90 plus player to upgrade other areas of your team then accpet the loss or keep the superstar

Danger_dave1

matthew8 wrote: »

If we are going to attach that to being a sim league then the trade commission thingy should go out the window, as well as rules for running up the score.

Not really man. We strive to get a sim league as much as possible, but running up the score is just not cool, we all know that. The Trade commission hasn't even been created its still be created. Plus there's plenty of time before we look at what we need.

A possibility would be a trade advisory board or a full on trade commission (Thats a separate issue)

I still think the trading of players you've just gotten in a different trade is crazy and shouldnt be allowed. We may want to consider the cap for next year.

BigBadRob83

If you don't like what someone is looking for in a trade or how they value a player, then don't deal with that person or try to trade for that player.
People place different values on different players. People define "elite" and many other subjective words differently. That's why these things are subjective.

I think a trade commission and other things like that are a good idea if its to promote fairness in the league, as long as it doesn't prevent someone from doing something they want to.

Dave - I'm wondering why you think someone has to stay on a roster all season long? I know I've traded guys in and out, and I don't see the issue with it, what negative effect it is having?

I know I personally enjoy the trading aspect of this league and I know a lot of other guys do too. And it is meant to be enjoyable at the end of the day.
Apart from the issue that people brought up with the Peppers trade (which I have explained elsewhere, and NekoChan was happy with, including after I offered to undo it), I don't remember anything too contentious.
I'd be wary of limiting actions in the league, unless they are having a definite negative/unfair effect.

helimachoptor

Agreed on the trading of new players dave(in saying that I did it this year to get an "elite" player!)

matthew8

etloveslsd wrote: »

Then why trade him? If you are trading a 90 plus player to upgrade other areas of your team then accpet the loss or keep the superstar

Again, the guy trading the best player can ask for what he wants, it's just negotiation.

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

Not really man. We strive to get a sim league as much as possible, but running up the score is just not cool, we all know that. The Trade commission hasn't even been created its still be created. Plus there's plenty of time before we look at what we need.

A possibility would be a trade advisory board or a full on trade commission (Thats a separate issue)

I still think the trading of players you've just gotten in a different trade is crazy and shouldnt be allowed. We may want to consider the cap for next year.

We are trying to push this sim league too far. Trading is fun. End of. More trading, more fun.

The_Gatsby

Is there anyway we can take the salary cap into account? This would force people to have to release star players. In the NFL, the Eagles were forced to release Asante Samuel because they couldn't afford him. They only got a 7th round pick but had to accept because they couldn't afford to keep him. A salary cap would lead to more stars being traded and I think an overall improvement to weaker teams in the league who have more cap space. I also think cap space would add another dimension to being a GM as players would actually have to think about which free agents they go for and would have to manage the team in order to try and leave the most cap space.

I do think players asking for a replacement player in a trade is a bit ridiculous. It means that players can only really afford to trade at certain positions, making it quite hard to upgrade. Saying that, I did it this year but I think it was necessary in that trade. Some players just ask for a replacement because they don't want too much of a downgrade at one position but then, why are they trading?

I don't think "rules" should be put in place because it kind of makes the league a bit strict but maybe we could use "guidelines", everybody on here would have the common sense to try and work to those guidelines.

helimachoptor

I think one of the rumours is to have a salary cap for Madden 13... I think!

but luke you're right it would defintely add an extra dimension to being in the league and would be great experience!

Danger_dave1

It wouldnt happen in the NFL( I know its a video game ) . A defensive tackle would not be traded from the Chargers and then traded straight away to the redskins. Your not trading players for your team your trading players to trade them again, This isnt baseball card trading.

If we do go with the Cap next year, Trading would be much more rare. With the Cap penalties.

Paully D

A salary cap would certainly be very interesting.

Pudsy33

If its implemented in the game, I'm happy with a cap.

BigBadRob83

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

It wouldnt happen in the NFL( I know its a video game ) . A defensive tackle would not be traded from the Chargers and then traded straight away to the redskins. Your not trading players for your team your trading players to trade them again, This isnt baseball card trading.

If we do go with the Cap next year, Trading would be much more rare. With the Cap penalties.

There's lots of things that happen in Madden that don't happen in the real NFL. If we compare every action in the game to the real-life version we would be constantly disappointed.

The one thing it is similar to is a three-team-trade, which happens in the real NFL but not in Madden.
If it's something that people want to do, and adds to the enjoyment and interest level (which I think it does, especially when people are sitting around waiting for two weeks to play during the playoffs and lead up to the draft), then why not? What is the harm in it?

SantryRed

A salary cap would be an absolute nightmare for a fantasy league if it's not implemented in Madden 13. There's no way we'd be able to use it through LM. It'd be a nightmare to use.

helimachoptor

Agreed Ben, if its not in Madden then we cant use it or you would be up til all hours working out teams cap space, cap penalties etc !

BigBadRob83

Salary cap for a fantasy draft would be almost impossible to manage. Only realistic way to do would probably be to take over the actual teams. Fantasy draft definitely my preferred choice

Berty44

I absolutely agree, a fantasy draft franchise setup and salary cap are virtually mutually exclusive. You could do the draft and then find you are over the salary cap immediately. I think it would only work using real rosters.

As for Dave's recommondation on not trading-on players. In the Madden PFL franchise we found a lot of antagonism towards certain coaches arising from trading, antagonism is not good for any league to have. Basically some guys were well known trade sharks and had no qualms about raping other coaches in trades simply because they knew better. The majority of guys did not want to see this. So a rule was introduced that if you traded for a player then that player had to stay on your roster for that season. While everyone here may not agree it is accepted to be an excellent rule in that it protects newbies somewhat.

BigBadRob83

If the rule is there to protect rookies, is it not superfluous when there's a trade commission?
Besides the fact that it's not done in the NFL, what is the actual harm in someone trading a player onwards?

For instance, Team A has no need for their second DT but needs a TE. Team B has an extra TE but no need for a DT.
Why should Team B be prohibited from trading their TE for the DT, with the hopes of trading him onwards?

Berty44

There were a couple of reasons for it Rob. Firstly as you say it rarely happens in the NFL.

There currently is no Trade Commission as such but one is being instituted for the next Madden. That being said there were trades stopped because guys saw obvious one sided trades and kicked up with guys being taken advantage of.

The real reason was to prevent the trade sharks from going mad trading their way to get the best team because they knew more about the value of playerss / picks that guys new to the game or who trade very little. Not saying thats either right or wrong but the general consensus of the whole league was they did not want to see that. There was a vote and overwhelmingly this was decided. I think the few who voted against it were ......probably the sharks :pac:

BigBadRob83

I can see the cause for it alright Berty in that situation. If we do have a trade commission though, I wouldn't see a need for it personally. I am a free marketeer myself (and as anyone can see from the forum, an active trader). My reasoning for keeping trades open isn't to fleece anyone, see it as an enjoyable part of the game. Though that's probably because I'm a better GM than a Madden player.

Anyway, think with things like this and other issues could be a good idea to have a poll on any issues before Madden 13. That way the whole league can decide what we do and don't want

etloveslsd

matthew8 wrote: »

Anyone can define elite however they want.

You can't really define elite how you want. Elite means the best of the best! There is a difference between elite and favourite.

I have Mercedes Lewis at TE, he is 95 overall, I really like him and he is very very good, but he is not elite. Antonio Gates is elite. Another argument would be the OLB Berty got 34 sacks with. Would he have got that production in someone elses team? Becuase he had 34 sacks, and is 71 overall does that make elite? No

mikemac1

I traded Mario Williams to the Giants last season
It was a long tough negoitation but we got a deal done

As Super Mario is a top player I got two players in return
Like the Raiders said, if you're trading the better player you have the stronger negotiation situation

And now one season later I'm finding the Giants are unhappy with two for one deals and lots of aspects of trading

What changed?
Am I going to offend people if I start making offers to other GM's

etloveslsd

mikemac1 wrote: »

I traded Mario Williams to the Giants last season
It was a long tough negoitation but we got a deal done

As Super Mario is a top player I got two players in return
Like the Raiders said, if you're trading the better player you have the stronger negotiation situation

And now one season later I'm finding the Giants are unhappy with two for one deals and lots of aspects of trading

What changed?
Am I going to offend people if I start making offers to other GM's

I never said I don't like 2 for 1 deals

mikemac1

I was looking at this post

etloveslsd wrote: »

Then why trade him? If you are trading a 90 plus player to upgrade other areas of your team then accpet the loss or keep the superstar

BigBadRob83

etloveslsd wrote: »

You can't really define elite how you want. Elite means the best of the best! There is a difference between elite and favourite.

I have Mercedes Lewis at TE, he is 95 overall, I really like him and he is very very good, but he is not elite. Antonio Gates is elite. Another argument would be the OLB Berty got 34 sacks with. Would he have got that production in someone elses team? Becuase he had 34 sacks, and is 71 overall does that make elite? No

Just because you personally don't define someone (e.g. Marcedes Lewis) as elite, doesn't make it so.
Elite is a subjective term, it does not mean only 'X'% of a population are elite. Seriously dude, this a really small thing to be getting yourself exercised over.

ELITE (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elite)
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).
b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.

etloveslsd

BigBadRob83 wrote: »

Just because you personally don't define someone (e.g. Marcedes Lewis) as elite, doesn't make it so.
Elite is a subjective term, it does not mean only 'X'% of a population are elite. Seriously dude, this a really small thing to be getting yourself exercised over.

ELITE (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elite)
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).
b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.

I'm not really that exercised over it, I posted my opinion and I'm respoinding to comments.

Danger_dave1

BigBadRob83 wrote: »

Just because you personally don't define someone (e.g. Marcedes Lewis) as elite, doesn't make it so.
Elite is a subjective term, it does not mean only 'X'% of a population are elite. Seriously dude, this a really small thing to be getting yourself exercised over.

ELITE (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elite)
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).
b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.

Read is original post. Troy Polamalu is the best SS in the game there's a drop off in skill after him. He's truly elite.

Vonta Leach is the best full back in the game. He's the only elite Full back in the game. Others can be considered excellent players but cannot be considered in the same league as him.

The term elite was branded around a fair bit in the post season. don't think it got under my bonnet like etloveslsd. But a good tight end or a good linebacker can't be labelled elite when theres players significantly above them in skill level at the same position.

How can they be considered elite ?

---

On the Trade part. I can see why you want to keep it open BigBadRob, you benefited massively from this post season. I still maintain you took advantage of a new player ,they accepted the trade and decided to "live and learn " from it. Thats done we need to move on and learn from it.

The off season trading needs to be addressed for madden 13

mikemac1

My players are elite when I trade them away
Their players are scrubs when I trade for them