Mitt the twit is in the sh1t for homophobic fit

Biggins

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Ah, so you don't really care about Obama's past, just Mitt Romney's.

If you looked at the website I linked to, it is obvious based on other stories in the sidebar that it was not solely set up to 'expose Obama for what he say in his...book'.

Why do you support Obama by the way?

I do care about all their pasts. Obama from the very start didn't exactly hide the activities as in his book(s).
After all we had a recent one also that while was an alcoholic, got his orders from god (claimed he got his missions from him!) while having the ability to start wars never mind play around with nuke buttons!
Obama was - while NOT pure white in sainthood - at least upfront even before he ran for office I think and took/drank/did what ever he did while a student and not while playing war games in the White House?

Why do I support Obama?
Because given the complete mess that two previous Republican's made and the current shower of what appears to be nutters they are growing, there is at least some variations of sanity in the Democratic party.
None on either side are perfect and shouldn't be knighted for sainthood - but at least one side seems to be more saner, modern and willing to work with the people - not exploit them, than the other.
...And thats just for starters.

---

The site by the way is clearly anti-Obama.
I suspect one set up by a Republican myself.

Pedant

Biggins wrote: »

Why do I support Obama?
Because given the complete mess that two previous Republican's made and the current shower of what appears to be nutters they are growing, there is at least some variations of sanity in the Democratic party.
None on either side are perfect and should be knighted for sainthood - but at least one side seems to be more saner, modern and willing to work with the people - not exploit them, than the other.
...And thats just for starters.

---

The site by the way is clearly anti-Obama.
I suspect one set up by a Republican myself.

How many times does the debt ceiling need to be increased before Obama realises that something is going horribly wrong? I know that increasing the debt ceiling has become purely routine now. But the amount of debt the US is in is staggering, it's risen exponentially since Obama got into office.

Wompa1

Pedant wrote: »

How much did the US national debt rise since Obama was in office? Do you know, since November(ish) last the debt has risen from $14 trillion to $15 trillion alone. I don't think Romney will solve it, the US needs Ron Paul to cut cut cut.

Ron Paul will never be president. He seems like a likable guy, given his interactions with people from all walks of life I would be inclined to believe that he did not know that leaflet was for a white supremisists group. I also admire his stance on abortion...I don't agree or diagree with it but from a qualified doctor I think it carries more weight and he doesn't dodge the question. I'd vote for him just to see what he'd do, I think it would be very drastic which would be interesting at least. I thought John McCain would have made a fine president too if he didn't saddle up with that moron Pailin. Shame...if you want to see a terrible movie you should watch the Woody Harrleson movie about McCains campaign..so bad!!

Atlantis50

Biggins wrote: »

I do care about all their pasts. Obama from the very start didn't exactly hide the activities as in his book(s).
After all we had a recent one also that while was an alcoholic, got his orders from god (claimed he got his missions from him!) while having the ability to start wars never mind play around with nuke buttons!
Obama was - while NOT pure white in sainthood - at least upfront even before he ran for office I think and took/drank/did what ever he did while a student and not while playing war games in the White House?

Why do I support Obama?
Because given the complete mess that two previous Republican's made and the current shower of what appears to be nutters they are growing, there is at least some variations of sanity in the Democratic party.
None on either side are perfect and should be knighted for sainthood - but at least one side seems to be more saner, modern and willing to work with the people - not exploit them, than the other.
...And thats just for starters.

Well I'll tell you why I do not support Obama and Democrats.

Not many Irish people are familiar with this: http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/The-Presidents-Framework-for-Business-Tax-Reform-02-22-2012.pdf

What's in that document is a plan to radically overhaul the US corporate tax system that would do devastating damage to Ireland's economy if he manages to pass it (he can't while Republicans currently control the House of Representatives - that could change after the 2012 election).

Essentially, the two main negative impacts of the plan on Ireland would be:

1) Encourage U.S multinational subsidiaries currently in Ireland to relocate to the U.S.

Requiring companies to pay a minimum tax on overseas profits. The President believes we must prevent companies from reaping the benefits of locating profits in low-tax countries, put the United States on a more level playing field with our international competitors, and help end the race to the bottom in corporate tax rates.
Specifically, under the President’s proposal, income earned by subsidiaries of U.S. corporations operating abroad must be subject to a minimum rate of tax. This would stop our tax system from generously rewarding companies for moving profits offshore. Thus, foreign income deferred in a low-tax jurisdiction would be subject to immediate U.S. taxation up to the minimum tax rate with a foreign tax credit allowed for income taxes on that income paid to the host country. This minimum tax would be designed to balance the need to stop rewarding tax havens and to prevent a race to the bottom with the goal of keeping U.S. companies on a level playing field with competitors when engaged in activities which, by necessity, must occur in a foreign country.

2) Discourage new investment or expansion of existing U.S subsidiaries in Ireland.

Remove tax deductions for moving productions overseas and provide new incentives for bringing production back to the United States. The tax code currently allows companies moving operations overseas to deduct their moving expenses—and reduce their taxes in the United States as a result. The President is proposing that companies will no longer be allowed to claim tax deductions for moving their operations abroad. At the same time, to help bring jobs home, the President is proposing to give a 20 percent income tax credit for the expenses of moving operations back into the United States.

And there you have it. If Democrats sweep the 2012 election, forget about economic recovery in Ireland.

Biggins

Pedant wrote: »

How many times does the debt ceiling need to be increased before Obama realises that something is going horribly wrong? I know that increasing the debt ceiling has become purely routine now. But the amount of debt the US is in is staggering, it's risen exponentially since Obama got into office.

All true and he's got his work cut out for him - if not for the next guy to come (from his party he might hope).
Now instead of fighting each other, if both sides could rather stop fighting and blocking stuff, they might actually get something done about the situation.
Sadly the Republicans are just too busy now (and previously) trying to hamper any efforts made by the present in power government.

Pedant

Wompa1 wrote: »

Ron Paul will never be president. He seems like a likable guy, given his interactions with people from all walks of life I would be inclined to believe that he did not know that leaflet was for a white supremisists group. I also admire his stance on abortion...I don't agree or diagree with it but from a qualified doctor I think it carries more weight and he doesn't dodge the question. I'd vote for him just to see what he'd do, I think it would be very drastic which would be interesting at least. I thought John McCain would have made a fine president too if he didn't saddle up with that moron Pailin. Shame...if you want to see a terrible movie you should watch the Woody Harrleson movie about McCains campaign..so bad!!

Paul isn't doing extremely badly in the Republican race though. They still have until August to make up all the delegates needed. That's when the Republican candidate will be chosen. There has been a coordinated media blackout on Paul's campaign so far. It's rare that you'd hear about his on European television.

Wompa1

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Well I'll tell you why I do not support Obama and Democrats.

Not many Irish people are familiar with this: http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/The-Presidents-Framework-for-Business-Tax-Reform-02-22-2012.pdf

What's in that document is a plan to radically overhaul the US corporate tax system that would do devastating damage to Ireland's economy if he manages to pass it (he can't while Republicans currently control the House of Representatives - that could change after the 2012 election).

Essentially, the two main negative impacts of the plan on Ireland would be:

1) Encourage U.S multinational subsidiaries currently in Ireland to relocate to the U.S.

2) Discourage new investment or expansion of existing U.S subsidiaries in Ireland.


And there you have it. If Democrats sweep the 2012 election, forget about economic recovery in Ireland.

Good point but surely that would be seen as a plus for actual US voters?...they want jobs and money right now. I don't think they care about the Irish recovery. I would think even with the incentives to move companies back. Ireland and the UK at least would still see strong US investment purely for strategical reasons. They need a channel into Europe for export reasons and also Ireland is position time wise to start working when the West Coast goes to sleep so Ireland gives a nice English speaking voice to deal with during unsociable American hours.

Biggins

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Well I'll tell you why I do not support Obama and Democrats.

Not many Irish people are familiar with this: http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/The-Presidents-Framework-for-Business-Tax-Reform-02-22-2012.pdf

What's in that document is a plan to radically overhaul the US corporate tax system that would do devastating damage to Ireland's economy if he manages to pass it (he can't while Republicans currently control the House of Representatives - that could change after the 2012 election).

Essentially, the two main negative impacts of the plan on Ireland would be:

1) Encourage U.S multinational subsidiaries currently in Ireland to relocate to the U.S.

2) Discourage new investment or expansion of existing U.S subsidiaries in Ireland.

And there you have it. If Democrats sweep the 2012 election, forget about economic recovery in Ireland.

Thats fair opinion and understandable - but if I was an American and a voter there, such things as above might not concern me.

Meanwhile, I'd rather one Democrat continues to try to bring home USA troops (and thus help world peace more) than two previous Republican Presidents who started their own personal wars - possible too just to keep their oil buddies happy? - then let in also another Republican that I fear might continue in the same vein as the previous ones that only seem to see profit in wars and not see the real casualties!
...But hey, Cheney and his Haliburton company made a fortune so he's alright too!

The stronger the USA gets internally, the better their buying power in regards to Irish goods by the way.
Its up to us then after that to market ourselves to that re-opening up market!
We just can't sit around and hope they will just land on our shores and/or put all our eggs in one 'basket' like that.
(We have seen what happens if we put all our eggs in one basket too much, just previously!)

Pedant

Biggins wrote: »

All true and he's got his work cut out for him - if not for the next guy to come (from his party he might hope).
Now instead of fighting each other, if both sides could rather stop fighting and blocking stuff, they might actually get something done about the situation.
Sadly the Republicans are just too busy now (and previously) trying to hamper any efforts made by the present in power government.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Republicans and Democrats not agreeing is the reason why the US is in so much debt? You can't keep on raising the debt ceiling forever, that's what many in the Republican Party profess, and rightly so. Debt is incurred true over spending. As US debt has increased MASSIVELY since Obama was sworn in, it's obvious that the Obama administration is more concerned with spending while ignoring the debt, thinking it'll somehow magic itself aware if the debt ceiling is increased. The US national debt is now growing faster than GDP.

Wompa1

Biggins wrote: »

Thats fair opinion and understandable - but if I was an American and a voter there, such things as above might not concern me.

Meanwhile, I'd rather one Democrat continues to try to bring home USA troops (and thus help world peace more) than two previous Republican Presidents who started their own personal wars - possible too just to keep their oil buddies happy? - then let in also another Republican that I fear might continue in the same vein as the previous ones that only seem to see profit in wars and not see the real casualties!
...But hey, Cheney and his Haliburton company made a fortune so he's alright too!

The stronger the USA gets internally, the better their buying power in regards to Irish goods by the way.
Its up to us then after that to market ourselves to that re-opening up market!

You don't think Obamas buddies with the same people? Or that he's not on the take? He was representing possibly the most corrupt state in America, his position got refilled under suspicous circumstances with a guy being arrested for corruption...

IrishAm

Wompa1 wrote: »

he did not know that leaflet was for a white supremisists group

Obama is linked to what could be described as a black supremacist pastor. Hes admitted snorting charlie. Hes admitted to bullying a white girl.

Now, substitute the word black for white, white for black and Obama for Ron Paul.

What would be the mainstream medias reaction?

Now, riddle me this. Americans adore their founding fathers and the constitution they drafted. Who is more politically minded as them, Paul, Romney or the current president?

Biggins

Pedant wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to say that the Republicans and Democrats not agreeing is the reason why the US is in so much debt?

Did I say that? Please show me where!
I tried to say that if the two sides would come together more so, they might get the debt down.

You can't keep on raising the debt ceiling forever, that's what many in the Republican Party profess, and rightly so.

True but that didn't stop them previously from raising it too did it?

Debt is incurred true over spending. As US debt has increased MASSIVELY since Obama was sworn in, it's obvious that the Obama administration is more concerned with spending while ignoring the debt, thinking it'll somehow magic itself aware if the debt ceiling is increased. The US national debt is now growing faster than GDP.

Strange, I though the national debt had seriously raised also because of the wars two Republican's started.
I'm open to be wrong but there you go!

Jesus Wept

His popularity probably just increased.

Atlantis50

Wompa1 wrote: »

Good point but surely that would be seen as a plus for actual US voters?...they want jobs and money right now. I don't think they care about the Irish recovery. I would think even with the incentives to move companies back. Ireland and the UK at least would still see strong US investment purely for strategical reasons. They need a channel into Europe for export reasons and also Ireland is position time wise to start working when the West Coast goes to sleep so Ireland gives a nice English speaking voice to deal with during unsociable American hours.

Of course they don't but I'm looking at this from an Irish perspective.

Regarding your other points, if the plan is implemented it would immediately end Ireland's corporate tax advantages for American MNCs ('prevent companies from reaping the benefits of locating profits in low-tax countries...end the race to the bottom in corporate tax rates...income earned by subsidiaries of U.S. corporations operating abroad must be subject to a minimum rate of tax...foreign income deferred in a low-tax jurisdiction would be subject to immediate U.S. taxation up to the minimum tax rate with a foreign tax credit allowed for income taxes on that income paid to the host country.' etc). Some may stay for reasons you have mentioned but lots will leave.

IrishAm

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Essentially, the two main negative impacts of the plan on Ireland would be:

1) Encourage U.S multinational subsidiaries currently in Ireland to relocate to the U.S.

2) Discourage new investment or expansion of existing U.S subsidiaries in Ireland.


And there you have it. If Democrats sweep the 2012 election, forget about economic recovery in Ireland.

He campaigned for the same in the previous election. Wont happen.

But if it did, would it not be in Ireland's long term interests?

Multinationals will come and go. Is it prudent to be constantly reliant on them? Is it not time for Ireland to stand on her own two feet? Short term pain, for long term gain, if you will.

Biggins

Wompa1 wrote: »

You don't think Obamas buddies with the same people? Or that he's not on the take? He was representing possibly the most corrupt state in America, his position got refilled under suspicous circumstances with a guy being arrested for corruption...

O' well as he's a member of that state - he must be guilty by that connection alone!

...And how did Bush junior get elected again via Florida?
What was the name of that chap that helped under very suspicious circumstances that is still being debated today? O' wait... Jeb Bush...

And if you know Obama is 'on the take' - do tell, the world if not just the Republican party, will be delighted to know!

Wompa1

IrishAm wrote: »

Obama is linked to what could be described as a black supremacist pastor. Hes admitted snorting charlie. Hes admitted to bullying a white girl.

Now, substitute the word black for white, white for black and Obama for Ron Paul.

What would be the mainstream medias reaction?

Now, riddle me this. Americans adore their founding fathers and the constitution they drafted. Who is more politically minded as them, Paul, Romney or the current president?

Americans also adored Britney Spears and she went crazy. Stay the course!

I get your point. I moved over here expecting Fox News to be crazy over the top Republican and for right wing views to actually get a lot of coverage. Fox News overall isn't fanatical. They have opinion shows that air during the night, dominated by Republicans. All other news sites are way left leaning. The political satire shows like Bill Maher and Jon Stewart spend the whole show ragging on Republicans. If Americans are so stupid, I would have expected that they all tow behind the loudest voice which is the left and not all of them do. Also most I have met seem to read their news from numerous sites...I think people need to give Americans a break. They aren't as dumb as people make out at all.

Atlantis50

Biggins wrote: »

Thats fair opinion and understandable - but if I was an American and a voter there, such things as above might not concern me.

Meanwhile, I'd rather one Democrat continues to try to bring home USA troops (and thus help world peace more) than two previous Republican Presidents who started their own personal wars - possible too just to keep their oil buddies happy? - then let in also another Republican that I fear might continue in the same vein as the previous ones that only seem to see profit in wars and not see the real casualties!
...But hey, Cheney and his Haliburton company made a fortune so he's alright too!

The stronger the USA gets internally, the better their buying power in regards to Irish goods by the way.
Its up to us then after that to market ourselves to that re-opening up market!
We just can't sit around and hope they will just land on our shores and/or put all our eggs in one 'basket' like that.
(We have seen what happens if we put all our eggs in one basket too much, just previously!)

But you are not an American voter. You live and work in Ireland (presumably) and so passage of this plan should be of concern to you, especially if you work in an American MNC.

Now, I agree things should not be solely judged based on the economic impact on Ireland. For instance, a warmonger winning would damage the world and Ireland's economy anyway, not to mention the thousands killed in the war(s).

Biggins

Atlantis50 wrote: »

But you are not an American voter. You live and work in Ireland (presumably) and so passage of this plan should be of concern to you, especially if you work in an American MNC.

Now, I agree things should not be solely judged based on the economic impact on Ireland. For instance, a warmonger winning would damage the world and Ireland's economy anyway, not to mention the thousands killed in the war(s).

Thinking of my kids and not just of myself, I'd rather live under the aspect of a more peaceful USA president that might (hopefully) get his/her economy started back up again so that in the long term, they also then allow its citizens to further be able to purchase Irish goods - and not just have us rely a great deal on just USA companies within our own borders, to keep us a float.

Atlantis50

IrishAm wrote: »

He campaigned for the same in the previous election. Wont happen.

But if it did, would it not be in Ireland's long term interests?

Multinationals will come and go. Is it prudent to be constantly reliant on them? Is it not time for Ireland to stand on her own two feet? Short term pain, for long term gain, if you will.

Because Republicans are opposed to it and control the House of Representatives. That's why it won't happen. He may have given soundings on it in 2008 but this is a comprehensive plan unveiled this February so we shouldn't take it for granted that it won't happen.

Short term pain would be extreme pain and it would last into the medium term. Think how much the live register and emigration would rise by.

Atlantis50

Biggins wrote: »

Thinking of my kids and not just of myself, I'd rather live under the aspect of a more peaceful USA president that might (hopefully) get his/her economy started back up again so that in the long term, they also then allow its citizens to further be able to purchase Irish goods - and not just have us rely a great deal on just USA companies within our own borders, to keep us a float.

Does that mean you would support/wouldn't mind the passage of the corporate tax reform plan?

IrishAm

Wompa1 wrote: »

Americans also adored Britney Spears and she went crazy. Stay the course!

Ah, sure we would all go crazy if we spent our formative years under intense media scrutiny.

Wompa1 wrote: »

I moved over here

Enjoy it, man. I am an American citizen(born to a naturalised American citizen in Dublin), but only spent two years there. Love the place and the people. But Dublins home!

Wompa1 wrote: »

expecting Fox News to be crazy over the top Republican and for right wing views to actually get a lot of coverage. Fox News overall isn't fanatical. They have opinion shows that air during the night, dominated by Republicans. All other news sites are way left leaning.

Thats the thing, all media outlets are somewhat biased. Each and every one of them.

Wompa1 wrote: »

If Americans are so stupid, I would have expected that they all tow behind the loudest voice which is the left and not all of them do. Also most I have met seem to read their news from numerous sites...I think people need to give Americans a break. They aren't as dumb as people make out at all.

Americans are a lot of things, stupid is not one of them. Sure, out of 300 million plus people you will find some fools. Just like if you visited Ireland you would find some beer swilling alcoholic ranting on about the black and tans.

It actually infuriates me how so many Irish people slag off Americans, especially American tourists.

If it wasnt for remittances sent home during the famine years and during Ireland's economic war with Britain, not a lot of us would be left.

I may be an American citizen, but dont consider myself American, but anyone who spouts shite about them, I will call them out.

America, especially Irish America, has always been our biggest ally.

Wompa1

IrishAm wrote: »

Ah, sure we would all go crazy if we spent our formative years under intense media scrutiny.





Enjoy it, man. I am an American citizen(born to a naturalised American citizen in Dublin), but only spent two years there. Love the place and the people. But Dublins home!



Thats the thing, all media outlets are somewhat biased. Each and every one of them.




Americans are a lot of things, stupid is not one of them. Sure, out of 300 million plus people you will find some fools. Just like if you visited Ireland you would find some beer swilling alcoholic ranting on about the black and tans.

It actually infuriates me how so many Irish people slag off Americans, especially American tourists.

If it wasnt for remittances sent home during the famine years and during Ireland's economic war with Britain, not a lot of us would be left.

I may be an American citizen, but dont consider myself American, but anyone who spouts shite about them, I will call them out.

America, especially Irish America, has always been our biggest ally.

Think it's taught from parents. My primary school and secondary school teachers would put down America quite a bit. From the crap I caught off other kids in primary school I would assume their parents also talked crap about America since they were far too young to be able to even understand what they were talking about. It probably goes back to when Irish immigrants moved back and talked about how they were treated like crap working on the railroads and the like. The people here have been great so far. Work colleagues have bought me lunch, brought me in sun covers for my car, invited me to Easter dinner etc. It's been cool so far but Ireland is still home I think, I came here for the experience. I am enjoying it but I still miss things about Ireland.....mainly the sweet paid holidays I had!

IrishAm

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Because Republicans are opposed to it and control the House of Representatives. That's why it won't happen. He may have given soundings on it in 2008 but this is a comprehensive plan unveiled this February so we shouldn't take it for granted that it won't happen.

Short term pain would be extreme pain and it would last into the medium term. Think how much the live register and emigration would rise by.

We need to focus on indigenous industry and start ups. If we did this during the Tiger years, we wouldnt be in the mess we are in now. An entrepreneur in Ireland, is a lad who sold houses. This needs to change.

Ireland and her people can do this. We are an inventive people. Multinationals will eventually leave anyway. Look at Dell. Moved into Limerick. Great stuff. We gave them tax break. They left at a drop of a hat. Their workforce were majority foreign born. Mostly EU. From newspaper articles, it transpires the foreign workforce now remain on welfare in Limerick, instead of accepting relocation offers to Poland.

The net benefit to Dell was great, Ireland not so.

Fuck multinationals. They will leave eventually.

I am currently running my own business. I live on sweet fuck all a week. The industry I was in, still has plenty of job opportunities. At the moment. That will change. As I said, short term pain for long term gain.

We need to start planning ahead.

Especially the government.

maninasia

To get back to the topic.

Romney claims he doesn't remember the incident.
I don't know about you but I'm sure nobody involved has forgotten this.

Oh well another liar possibly destined for the White House.

IrishAm

Wompa1 wrote: »

The people here have been great so far. Work colleagues have bought me lunch, brought me in sun covers for my car, invited me to Easter dinner etc.

American people are deadly man, and most do have a soft spot for the Irish. Once you work hard and are friendly they will take to you.

I know us Irish have a reputation for being friendly, but how many times have you heard of us inviting foreign nationals to Christmas/Easter/Sunday dinner?

I was invited to many a thanksgiving dinner. Even by people I would not have considered a friend(Irish style friend).

Wompa1 wrote: »

It's been cool so far but Ireland is still home I think, I came here for the experience. I am enjoying it but I still miss things about Ireland.....mainly the sweet paid holidays I had!

Enjoy it, buddy. You will have the time of your life. Work the accent.

dsmythy

You'd swear Massachusetts is some hell hole from what people say about Romney. His campaign director for getting elected there in the first place was openly gay.

1965 was 47 years ago. Think about it. JFK was barely dead.

maninasia

dsmythy wrote: »

You'd swear Massachusetts is some hell hole from what people say about Romney. His campaign director for getting elected there in the first place was openly gay.

1965 was 47 years ago. Think about it. JFK was barely dead.

Romeny is a liar. He should man up, admit what he did, and say he learned from his mistakes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/10/mitt-romney-apologises-high-school-prank

Five students from the time offered corroborating accounts of the incident, four of them on the record. "It happened very quickly, and to this day it troubles me," said Thomas Buford, the school's wrestling champion and now a retired prosecutor, who said he joined Romney in restraining Lauber.

Buford said he subsequently looked out for Labuer, who had been "terrified" during the incident and apologised. "What a senseless, stupid, idiotic thing to do," Buford said. Lauber died in 2004.

During the radio interview on Thursday, Romney claimed that he was not overly worried about the Post piece. Asked whether he remembered the Lauber incident, he said: "You know, I don't."

Biggins

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Does that mean you would support/wouldn't mind the passage of the corporate tax reform plan?

Sorry for delay in replying - my bed called.

As an Irish person there is always concern what other countries do which might effect Ireland somewhat.
I would say that all main parties of America would have policies that will not go to our own best interests at some stage or other. I've no doubt the Republicans have policies that effect Ireland too.
If we can accept a basic principle that the Democrats/Republicans will always first look after their own interests to boot in some form and we can't really change that, what we are left with thereafter, is to chose what seems the best sensible party there in the states that is better for the world also.

In other words, be it the Democrats or Republicans, either at some stage will have policies that can effect us. There is no getting away from this. We can cry about it, speak up about it but at the close of day, thats just the way it will always be.

So I then favour a party that on the whole taking remaining facts surrounding either org's and its people, I choose the one that is better over all.

Right now (and for some time) the Democrats seem to be the far better choice.