Dog shot!

diarmo06

Hello all.
My dog, toby, has been missing the last few days. Live in the kerry countryside.
There's a local farmer, 80+ years old. Still farms, in my opinion shouldn't.
Few days previously, tossed, literally, the dog in our gate and said he'd shoot her next time she "trespassed".
I was wondering what I could do to find out if he shot her? Do i have any rights here?

Tried to talk to the ignorant s**t but he claims to have never seen her.

Procrastastudy

Very sorry to hear your dog is missing but why is it on someone else's property?

What are you suggesting if he says he hasn't seen your dog?

Why shouldn't he still be farming?

diarmo06

Thankyou.
Ah, I know this will cause an uproar, but I would've thought we were past the Ireland that a defenseless dog would be shot for wandering around a field. Past his generation perhaps, is what i'm alluding to.

Well, this is pretty rural rural country. We're relatively new to the area. You'd see a cow or horse walk down the road unattended an odd day. Far cry from the dog in a cage all day. Pitty I suppose.

drunkmonkey

He made a death threat to your dog.

Your dog goes missing without a trace.

There shotgun seems like it's been fired in the last few days.

I'd go see will a Garda go have a look for you. Maybe find the missing shotgun shells that were fired and see if there's anything suspect where they are. Element of surprise is key here, give the Garda a good low down.

Hope your dog turns up. Check all local shelters.

diarmo06

I'm suggesting he could well be lying. Wondering if I have any right to check his grounds? He seems a spiteful enough character. Not very well liked locally. I would just have my doubts..
And the fact that he threatened to do it not a week or so ago, leads me to believe he may well have.

padraig.od

diarmo06 wrote: »

Thankyou.
Ah, I know this will cause an uproar, but I would've thought we were past the Ireland that a defenseless dog would be shot for wandering around a field. Past his generation perhaps, is what i'm alluding to.

Well, this is pretty rural rural country. We're relatively new to the area. You'd see a cow or horse walk down the road unattended an odd day. Far cry from the dog in a cage all day. Pitty I suppose.

Are you from the countryside yourself?

That dog could have done thousands of euro worth of damage to livestock while it was wandering around the countryside. Dogs trespassing are liable to be shot. You're lucky he didn't do any damage and you're not on the end of hefty vet bills, or a compensation claim for savaged livestock.

dats_right

You are asking about your rights, but have you thought about your obligations here? I don't know what rights you think you have based on the events you describe, in my view you should just be grateful you got your dog back the first time.

You have a duty to control your dog and to keep it from entering the private property of others. Farmers are lawfully entitled to shoot dogs on their farms in certain circumstances. Also if your dog causes any damage or loss to livestock or whatever you will be liable to compensate the farmer.

My advice is to take better control of your dog.

F1ngers

Open to correction here, but if your dog is in his field(potentially worrying his livestock) he has every right to shot your dog on sight.

Witcher

diarmo06 wrote: »

I'm suggesting he could well be lying. Wondering if I have any right to check his grounds? He seems a spiteful enough character. Not very well liked locally. I would just have my doubts..
And the fact that he threatened to do it not a week or so ago, leads me to believe he may well have.

You can't enter his land without permission no, but really without him admitting that he shot your dog or you actually find the dog on his land there is not much you can do, sorry if I sound heartless there, I do sympathise with you losing your dog, I've had a dog go missing and not return:o

F1ngers wrote: »

Open to correction here, but if your dog is in his field(potentially worrying his livestock) he has every right to shot your dog on sight.

He has to attempt to remove the dog himself or alert the owner/dog warden, he can't just go out and shoot the dog on the spot.

Procrastastudy

The dog should be kept on your property unless you have it on a lead. Doesn't matter where you live. I grew up in a rural area - cows and horses are one thing a dog is quite another - they chase livestock and are potentially dangerous.

I hope all turns out okay but keep it in your control next time IMO.

This forum and the pets forum has many examples of dogs being destroyed due to them doing fairly innocent things such as snapping at joggers heals.

diarmo06

dats_right wrote: »

You are asking about your rights, but have you thought about your obligations here? I don't know what rights you think you have based on the events you describe, in my view you should just be grateful you got your dog back.

You have a duty to control your dog and to keep it from entering the private property of others. Farmers are lawfully entitled to shoot dogs on their farms in certain circumstances. Also if your dog causes any damage or loss to livestock or whatever you will be liable to compensate the farmer.

My advice is to take better control of your dog.

Frankly, If you knew the dog you would understand how ridiculious the thought of damage caused could be. Merely months old, cross between a mongral and something unknown. Small dog! Gentle nature.
Yes, you will claim that's irrelevant. But, chances are ye're from farming backrounds yourself? Biast i would've thought.

Should an 85 years old man have the right to shoot on sight without any danger to his precious "livestock".

drunkmonkey

dats_right wrote: »

Farmers are lawfully entitled to shoot dogs on their farms in certain circumstances. Also if your dog causes any damage or loss to livestock or whatever you will be liable to compensate the farmer.

No certain circumstances here, no evidence of livestock injured, dog could have been doing no harm just liked to roam.

Crazy old man with a shotgun by the sounds of it. Could be the Posty next. No harm in a Garda looking.

diarmo06

F1ngers wrote: »

Open to correction here, but if your dog is in his field(potentially worrying his livestock) he has every right to shot your dog on sight.

That miserably old s**t is the old judge of goingons? I'd love to hear my dogs opinions..

BornToKill

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There shotgun seems like it's been fired in the last few days.

I'd go see will a Garda go have a look for you. Maybe find the missing shotgun shells that were fired and see if there's anything suspect where they are.

Did I miss something along the way? What shotgun, which shells???

drunkmonkey

BornToKill wrote: »

Did I miss something along the way? What shotgun, which shells???

The ones the Garda will find if the gun has been fired.

Witcher

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The ones the Garda will find if the gun has been fired.

If he did shoot the dog he likely took them with him and shotgun cartridges are not an uncommon sight in a field anyway.

F1ngers

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No certain circumstances here, no evidence of livestock injured, dog could have been doing no harm just liked to roam.

Crazy old man with a shotgun by the sounds of it. Could be the Posty next. No harm in a Garda looking.

No dog shot(mis-leading thread title, should be "dog missing").
How do you know he's crazy?
Posty is next for what?
what would the Garda be looking for? A farmer with a shotgun. Plenty of those I would imagine.

Procrastastudy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The ones the Garda will find if the gun has been fired.

Which could be easily explained away - assuming he's done something legally wrong by shooting the dog in the first place.

diarmo06

BornToKill wrote: »

Did I miss something along the way? What shotgun, which shells???

The hypotetical situation I believe.

TheBegotten

Unfortunately, this is the one time of year when he could legally shoot your dog. I can't quote, but you can only kill a dog if its threatening young livestock (lambs). However, aside from that her cannot kill Toby for trepass, because it isn't intentional. Dogs normally don't wander far, good luck finding him, I know how stressful a lost dog can be.
Just thought id add, check your neighbours, we found a westie once, had him for 3 days before he made his own way. Ask around.

dats_right

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No certain circumstances here, no evidence of livestock injured, dog could have been doing no harm just liked to roam.

Crazy old man with a shotgun by the sounds of it. Could be the Posty next. No harm in a Garda looking.

What a daft post. You have no knowledge of any of this other than the few snippets of partial info the OP gave, yet you make a lot of assumptions based in nothing more than your own preconceived notions and prejudices.

By the way OP, no connection with countryside whatsoever, I'm Dublin through and through.

Procrastastudy

diarmo06 wrote: »

Feel good about yourself now? Mocking a 17 boy who's dog was shot. Mam's been crying all evening.

I'd thank you kindly sir. To F*ck off!

Defo a gremlin....

I mean TROLL

diarmo06

I'm going to remove the thread now, sorry for wasting your time.

drunkmonkey

F1ngers wrote: »

No dog shot(mis-leading thread title, should be "dog missing").
How do you know he's crazy?
Posty is next for what?
what would the Garda be looking for? A farmer with a shotgun. Plenty of those I would imagine.

Nothing mis-leading about it, Why do you think the dog is missing, somebody said he'd kill the dog, reasonable assumption is the dog has been shot.

If he's wandering around making death threats i's assume that would be bordering on crazy. He 85, could be thinking he's john wayne for all we know.

Posty is next for a bullet from the farmer, runs over a lamb on the way in. Not out of the realms of possibility.

The Garda will be looking for a dead dog. Or just making a friendly visit about a stray dog he's been hearing about that has injured some live stock, giving the farmer a tipp off. He could also be checking for a Gun licence.

goat2

i am sorry to hear about your dog, i hope he is found in his health, maybe he has been picked up and put in a shelter or kept by someone thinking he had no home,

i am the owner of 3 dogs, there is no way i would leave them outside the property unless i am with them, i have a run at back of house, so they have the freedom to move out of the house now and then,
i grew up on a farm, and one morning i saw what dogs wondering can do, what i saw broke my heart sheep and lambs, so i am very careful not to have my dogs out unless i am with them, also i have warned the others living in our home to never leave dogs outside unattended when i am in town or whatever.
i do hope your dog is returned to you, because i am sure the farmer is telling the truth when he says he did not see the dog.

Pottler

diarmo06 wrote: »

Feel good about yourself now? Mocking a 17 boy who's dog was shot. Mam's been crying all evening.

I'd thank you kindly sir. To F*ck off!

It's not shot, it's missing, apparently - all we know so far is that you lost your dog(careless?):).
I've shot several dogs that have chased livestock, so have all of my farmer neighbours. Little pookins turns into a different beast when it is out chasing sheep and cattle across a field for a bit of craic till they drop from exhaustion or abort their calves/lambs. Perfectly legal, but the owners do tend to whinge a bit.
Buy a lead, and a new dog.:) Sir. Or a Toby mug -might be easier to keep track of..

diarmo06

Pottler wrote: »

It's not shot, it's missing, apparently - all we know so far is that you lost your dog(careless?):).
I've shot several dogs that have chased livestock, so have all of my farmer neighbours. Little pookins turns into a different beast when it is out chasing sheep and cattle across a field for a bit of craic till they drop from exhaustion or abort their calves/lambs. Perfectly legal, but the owners do tend to whinge a bit.
Buy a lead, and a new dog.:) Sir.

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

longhalloween

I doubt there's anything you can do.

No trace of your dog
No proof that he was even on the farmer's land or he was killed.
No way of even obtaining proof without breaking a few laws yourself

Even if you had proof, it's a bit of a grey area whether the farmer could legally shoot your dog. Given the time of year I'd say the guards would side with him anyways.

In fairness he gave you a chance and a warning, but still you let your dog run free. He wouldn't care if your dog was the friendliest in the world. All he cares about are his livestock and livelihood.

diarmo06 wrote: »

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

The farmer does. Because that's how he earns his living.

Witcher

diarmo06 wrote: »

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

Well the sheep are the farmer's livelihood, a dog doesn't put bread on your table.

28064212

diarmo06 wrote: »

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

Were the sheep coming on to your land and chasing your dog around?

Number one rule of dog ownership is keeping it under control

diarmo06

Blay wrote: »

Well the sheep are the farmer's livelihood, a dog doesn't put bread on your table.

... Niether do you, hmm

Sittingpretty

This is a very hard lesson to learn if you are indeed correct and the dog has been shot.
Unfortunately though it was your family's responsibility to keep your dog safe and a roaming dog is never safe.
Im a country girl and I have a German Shep that is the sweetest kindest dog. Do I think she would be like that in a field with livestock? My arse, she would chase anything that moves. Dogs should be kept in secure gardens and never allowed to roam.
I hope Toby turns up safe and sound

Witcher

diarmo06 wrote: »

... Niether do you, hmm

....Yes...good rebuttal.

TheBegotten

diarmo06 wrote: »

Pottler wrote: »

It's not shot, it's missing, apparently - all we know so far is that you lost your dog(careless?):).
I've shot several dogs that have chased livestock, so have all of my farmer neighbours. Little pookins turns into a different beast when it is out chasing sheep and cattle across a field for a bit of craic till they drop from exhaustion or abort their calves/lambs. Perfectly legal, but the owners do tend to whinge a bit.
Buy a lead, and a new dog.:) Sir.

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

Price of a sheep: ~€100
Price of a dog: ~€200+ & emotional value.

Believe it or not, dogs are protected under law. Furthermore, I would say its agricultures fault for spitting in the eye of natural selection and making a 250kg bovine that is afraid of a max 70kg dog. There's too much obession in Ireland on farming and land.

F1ngers

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nothing mis-leading about it, Why do you think the dog is missing,.

Careless owner.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

somebody said he'd kill the dog, reasonable assumption is the dog has been shot.

Nobody said they would kill the dog, from OP -

said he'd shoot her next time she "trespassed".

, nothing about killing mentioned there.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If he's wandering around making death threats i's assume that would be bordering on crazy. He 85, could be thinking he's john wayne for all we know.

Could also be thinking of protecting his livestock.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Posty is next for a bullet from the farmer, runs over a lamb on the way in. Not out of the realms of possibility.

Possible, but unlikely.
Farmer seems to be the only sane one there.
Gives the dog back, gives op fair warning if his dog "trespasses" again and yet the op was still careless with taking care of his dog.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The Garda will be looking for a dead dog. Or just making a friendly visit about a stray dog he's been hearing about that has injured some live stock, giving the farmer a tipp off. He could also be checking for a Gun licence.

Nice Garda, doing his job.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

You should have kept your dog under control. You are responsible for the dog going missing instead of this alleged 'crazy old guy'

diarmo06

diarmo06 wrote: »

Personally, I would question the validity of this "farmer's law". Who decided the price of a sheeps life was any greater than that of a dog?
Flawed

Your whole argument is based on your rights and doesn't seem to make any allowance for your responsibilities to the farmer and your other neighbours.

You got your dog back once already having allowed him wander freely across fields that you don't own and have no right to allow your dog access to. You now are accusing an elderly man of shooting the dog without any proof whatsoever save for one intemperate comment he made the last time which, incidentally, clearly demonstrated how seriously he took the issue of having a stray dog on his land.

Rights are binary things, they come with contingent responsibilities and you seem to have utterly ignored yours. I'm sorry for your dog but more so for having such a disinterested owner who didn't take appropriate measures to secure the dog within their property and provide a safe environment for the animal.

Procrastastudy

TheBegotten wrote: »

Price of a sheep: ~€100
Price of a dog: ~€200+ & emotional value.

Believe it or not, dogs are protected under law. Furthermore, I would say its agricultures fault for spitting in the eye of natural select and making a 250kg bovine that is afraid of a max 70kg dog. There's tonight much obsession in Ireland on farming and land.

Price of a sheep: ~€100
Price of a dog: ~€200+ & emotional value.
Watching 3 pages of a thread without a single legal theory: Priceless

Flippant comments aside would you please quote the statute / case to which you refer?

longhalloween

TheBegotten wrote: »

Price of a sheep: ~€100
Price of a dog: ~€200+ & emotional value.

Believe it or not, dogs are protected under law. Furthermore, I would say its agricultures fault for spitting in the eye of natural select and making a 250kg bovine that is afraid of a max 70kg dog. There's tonight much obession in Ireland on farming and land.

Price of my cow €700
Price of my sheep €100
Price of someone elses dog? Don't care.

Since when does natural selection make cows more fearful?
cows = herbivore
dog = carnivore (they have canines;))

And would you not be afraid if a dog was running at you barking and snapping?

PFL

diarmo06 wrote: »

Frankly, If you knew the dog you would understand how ridiculious the thought of damage caused could be. Merely months old, cross between a mongral and something unknown. Small dog! Gentle nature.
Yes, you will claim that's irrelevant. But, chances are ye're from farming backrounds yourself? Biast i would've thought.

Should an 85 years old man have the right to shoot on sight without any danger to his precious "livestock".

Stingy attitude you got there fella, what's his age got to do with anything. He already informed you the dog was on HIS property hassling HIS livestock, jeopardising HIS investment.

No dog should be allowed wander if there's a remote chance they could damage livestock which they do, I've seen the cutest dogs turn into crazed animals inflicting great damage, will you pay the cost?

Also I wouldn't venture onto his land he might have cause to take a pot shot at you!

F1ngers

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Watching 3 pages of a thread without a single legal theory: Priceless

Still on page one for me.
Set your posts to page count to 40 - thank me later.

EDIT - This is the first post on page 2.

Procrastastudy

I'm dyslexic and agnostic - this thread is going to keep me awake tonight wondering if there really is a Dog.

tvercetti

Credit to the senile farmer for returning your dog in the first place, just a shame you failed to control your dog in the aftermath. To say you had been warned would be an understatement.

Hope the dog makes a safe return!

Pottler

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Price of a sheep: ~€100
Price of a dog: ~€200+ & emotional value.
Watching 3 pages of a thread without a single legal theory: Priceless

Flippant comments aside would you please quote the statute / case to which you refer?

Toby V's Old boy, Kerry District 2012 - judgement found in favour of Old Boy due to lack of evidence and Legal precedent whereby the Landowner traditionally decides what quadriped may or may not roam unimpeded upon said Landowners Lands without receiving a dose of Vitamin L.

Procrastastudy

Pottler wrote: »

Toby V's Old boy, Kerry District 2012 - judgement found in favour of Old Boy due to lack of evidence and Legal precedent whereby the Landowner traditionally decides what quadriped may or may not roam unimpeded upon said Landowners Lands without receiving a dose of Vitamin L.

I think the fact that I had to read that twice and was just about to go and type it into Westlaw is probably a signal I should head to bed. Exam tomorrow

TheBegotten

Point taken. I can't quote or reference, it was a long time ago since I saw it on a similar thread. I'll look it up tomorrow, assuming this thread isn't closed, I have a notion its in the constitution.
Back to point, using your logic longhalliween, why should I care about someone else's sheep? If he doesn't adequatly protect them, its hardly my problem? Furthermore dogs are a type of wolf and cows are a sub-speices of bison. Have you seen a bison running from a lone wolf, let alone a herd of bison?

Witcher

TheBegotten wrote: »

Back to point, using your logic, why should I care about someone else's sheep? If he doesn't adequatly protect them, its hardly my problem? Furthermore dogs are a type of wolf and cows are a sub-speices of bison. Have you seen a bison running from a lone wolf, let alone a herd of bison?

They're on the farmer's land, the dog is trespassing on the land, it is the owner's duty to control the dog, if they don't the dog gets shot, it's a simple law that has worked for years. Actions->Consequences.

Procrastastudy

TheBegotten wrote: »

I have a notion its in the constitution.

Okay that is a joke I'm assuming? ... I really don't know anymore.

On a serious note if you do come across the reference please PM me I might be cheeky but if theres genuinely law on the subject I'm interested in reading it. Thanks in advance.

longhalloween

TheBegotten wrote: »

I have a notion its in the constitution.

I'm sure Dev was shouting it from the steps of the GPO in 1916

TheBegotten wrote: »

Back to point, using your logic, why should I care about someone else's sheep? If he doesn't adequatly protect them, its hardly my problem? Furthermore dogs are a type of wolf and cows are a sub-speices of bison.

Why would a farmer care about someones dog? If you can't adequately control him its hardly the farmer's problem. If a dog was chasing my sheep on my land I'd have no hesitation killing him.

TheBegotten wrote: »

Have you seen a bison running from a lone wolf, let alone a herd of bison?

No. Have you? :rolleyes:

Pottler

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Okay that is a joke I'm assuming? ... I really don't know anymore.

On a serious note if you do come across the reference please PM me I might be cheeky but if theres genuinely law on the subject I'm interested in reading it. Thanks in advance.

I thought you were going to bed? You'll flunk that exam if you don't get to sleep - try counting sheep...

BornToKill

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Okay that is a joke I'm assuming? ... I really don't know anymore.

On a serious note if you do come across the reference please PM me I might be cheeky but if theres genuinely law on the subject I'm interested in reading it. Thanks in advance.

Well, there's this.