Shutting down private schools

JustinDee

KyussBishop wrote: »

I'm not sure about revenue, I don't think so offhand; one thing you need to consider with private schools, is they can (as far as I know) discriminate more who they take on (whether that be through direct judgment or socioeconomically through size of fees), and this can lead to 'creaming off' easier to teach students, who aren't from troublesome socioeconomic backgrounds (poor areas with crime problems, where a greater percentage of students may bring problems into the school), or who don't have disabilities of one kind or another.

The generalisation that behaviour is related to class and background is bad enough, but an insinuation that schools can be differentiated based in discriminatory selection of disabled/handicapped pupils is ridiculous.

KyussBishop

Poverty and crime are pretty well correlated, even if one doesn't cause the other; it's a perfectly apt example, even if an area being relatively poor does not automatically mean more crime.

Schools here already discriminate based on religion, and do that openly and overtly; there is also more covert discrimination in the enrollment process of many schools, which favour relatives of past students, and those of staff etc., so there is ample opportunity for covert discrimination of students for any reason in the enrollment process, and the school does not have to be up-front about its reasons for rejecting someone.

Macha

JustinDee wrote: »

The generalisation that behaviour is related to class and background is bad enough, but an insinuation that schools can be differentiated based in discriminatory selection of disabled/handicapped pupils is ridiculous.

I don't think the poster was condoning the practice but pointing out that it happens.

I went to a private school and the selection process was not very transparent at all.

JustinDee

Macha wrote: »

I don't think the poster was condoning the practice but pointing out that it happens.

I went to a private school and the selection process was not very transparent at all.

I'm keen to hear of any discrimination based on disability or handicap. Just chucking out an insinuation that "it happens" is hardly sufficient. Such an act of discrimination would have to be proven with examples and those examples applied to the school system itself.

KyussBishop

Do you have any disagreement with the actual point, that private schools are more likely to "cream off" easier to teach students?

There is definitely precedent in the past, of private schools being less amenable to people with disabilities:

It is common for second level schools to have an enrolment policy to help guide the student intake for each new academic year. The Department of Education and Science acknowledge that these policies are decided by the managerial authorities of each individual school. However, the Department has published guidelines in the past in relation to such policies. For example, in 1993 an 'agreed memorandum of understanding' was circulated to second level schools advising them that the selection of students on the basis of academic ability was not appropriate. This was issued from the Department in conjunction with the national representatives of school management associations.[8] Under the Education Act, 1998, second level schools are advised to publish their admissions policy. In addition, this Act also recommends that schools should have a policy on equality of access and participation by students with disabilities.[9] Despite these provisions in place, the capability or willingness by some second level schools to accept young people with disabilities has come under the spotlight in recent times, particularly in the media.

A recent piece in the Irish Times (14-11-06) reported that figures by the Department of Education showed that young people with special educational needs in Dublin were more likely to attend non fee-paying second level schools run by the State. And as already stated above, these schools are more likely to have Units offering additional support to students with special educational needs. It would appear that most fee-paying schools in the capital do not have any special provision for young people with special educational needs[10]. The article further suggests that the issue of student selection can arise in certain schools and that this requires further investigation.

http://www.nda.ie/cntmgmtnew.nsf/0/b1ecaa4dcc0ae28180257419003b60ad/$file/eslreport_03.htm

Seanchai

KyussBishop wrote: »

Read an article with an interesting viewpoint towards private education (mainly in UK) today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/10/michael-gove-private-school-social-justice

Basically, the author supports the shutting down of private schools, which would force wealthy parents to send their kids to public schools rather than being able to send them to private schools, thus preventing the societal segregation and imbalance in educational opportunities that creates.

If those parents are unhappy with the public education system, they (who are more likely to have better political connections due to wealth) would have to fight for reform of the system for everyone, and it would go some way to balancing educational opportunities between the rich and the rest of the population.

Note that, as a practical matter, this would not mean shutting down semi-private schools, presumably just forcibly bringing private schools under the same umbrella of obligations as semi-private (and perhaps hoisting additional restrictions on semi-private schools).


It's an interesting idea; I'm not a big fan of public schools in their current form, as there are a lot of problems with the system at various levels, so I'm not sold on the idea of shutting down private schools.
The idea of it though, is that there would be a greater impetus to reform and improve the public system, and thus those problems would (hopefully) get resolved faster.

It seems also that the state already pays the salaries of private school teachers, forking over €100 million a year to private schools, so forcing them into a semi-private role and compensating the additional expenditure on that with higher taxes on the rich, seems a fair alternative (where it seems quite unfair that the population is subsidizing more exclusive education in fee paying schools right now).

It would be interesting to hear a discussion on the wider benefits/pitfalls of this; it seems clear that private schools automatically create a certain level of social segregation and an imbalance in opportunities, so it provides benefits there, but what are the general pitfalls of the idea, and is the cost upon the small percentage of the population affected by those pitfalls, worth the benefits to wider society?

The basic analogy at the start of this thread is obviously fundamentally faulty: the British private school ("independent school") system is entirely privately financed. In Ireland, in sharp contrast, the vast, vast majority of schools are privately owned. Usually by the Roman Catholic Church. Fee-paying schools, which are not synonymous with private schools (something many people involved in this discussion cannot seem to grasp), are what are the problem for most people. Should the Irish state be directly well over €100 million into the fee-paying schools, when that money could get greater economies of scale by being invested in state-owned schools.

I think state money should only finance state schools. If somebody wants to send their kid to a private school, they can pay entirely for them without money being taken from the state school system. That, and that specifically, is the problem with this massive state subsidy of the fee-paying schools.

Seanchai

Note to everybody:

Most schools in Ireland are "private schools", with the owner usually being the private institution known as the Roman Catholic Church. But most schools in Ireland are not fee-paying schools. Could people please acknowledge this important distinction?

KyussBishop

Yes that's been covered previously in the thread; most schools are "semi-private" in that sense, in that they are privately administered but have some public funding.

I'm not sure if I think such schools should be either cut off completely or forced into all-public funding; it is probably more beneficial to just make sure strict and fair standards are imposed on them, in return for accepting public funding.