Ireland and personal responsibility

AudreyHepburn

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Teyla Emmagan

I absolutely agree with you as it happens. And this is why it amazes me that people advocate voting 'No' to the fiscal treaty on the 'ah sure Europe will always bail us out' basis. No personal responsibility whatsoever! It amazes me.

Battered Mars Bar

I like the way irish people who have been working in oz for 3 years are now beginning to complain about the influx of irish people to oz in the past year.

cocoshovel

You see it quite often. People who blatently do something wrong or bad, and its 100% obvious/true that they did it, yet they refuse to own up claiming "shur i didnt do nothing!!". I think these people seriously trick themselves into believing they did nothing wrong.

Gbear

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

It's probably something that's true of all people.
I think what's possibly different about the Irish is that we became a nation of nouveau riche when we came into vast wealth very quickly in the 90's/00's and that has led to a breathtaking sense of entitlement.

ejmaztec

The throwing around of the "we" word each time this gets dragged up gets on my tits.

Sindri

Hepburn's most famous role was Holly Golightly.

Captain Darling

ejmaztec wrote: »

The throwing around of the "we" word each time this gets dragged up gets on my tits.

We cant be having that.

kevin65

People in general nowadays want to be entitled to everything and accountable for nothing.

forfuxsake

ejmaztec wrote: »

The throwing around of the "we" word each time this gets dragged up gets on my tits.

Yeah we all bought too many houses (I had nine houses, 44 apartments and over 300 credit cards and voted Fianna FAIL so I would get more dole and a cushy public service job) blah blah

RichieC

At the end of the day we are intelligent mammals. we are what we are.

Ruralyoke

Just like the compo culture attitude.

Put a stop to that and you'd be amazed at the way things might change.

Sindri

ejmaztec wrote: »

The throwing around of the "we" word each time this gets dragged up gets on my tits.

It's ironic when included in a thread about personal responsibility.

forfuxsake

Sindri wrote: »

It's ironic when included in a thread about personal responsibility.

I think in any such thread the OP should include the phrase 'it's my fault'

yermanoffthetv

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you as it happens. And this is why it amazes me that people advocate voting 'No' to the fiscal treaty on the 'ah sure Europe will always bail us out' basis. No personal responsibility whatsoever! It amazes me.

Or how about we grow a spine and force the people who made this mess take responsibility, like the Frence,German and Dutch banks who speculated wildely on Irish banks in the hope of making huge profits. It works both ways. It also amazes me that people who advocate 'Yes' dont seem to realize that this fiscal treaty will do squat to ease the debit spiral we are in an merely further centralizes power in the core of Europe.

ejmaztec

Sindri wrote: »

It's ironic when included in a thread about personal responsibility.

I'm allergic to the whiff of FF's rotting corpse wafting up me nostrils when these threads pop up.:P

Sappa

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

I like the way irish people who have been working in oz for 3 years are now beginning to complain about the influx of irish people to oz in the past year.

Ha Ha that`s so true,I moved there in 2003 and you always go the fellas who did`nt want to know about the whv folk even though they arrived on one or the fellas who had PR and looked down on the Irish.
I had Pr after 2 years and if I could help a fellow country man or lady with finding a job or a house I did it,I always thought it was a selfish attitude to take to look down on those just starting off and finding there feet.

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

We we we we we.:eek:
Ah Audrey. Nothing ever changes with you. I did none of those things and yet seem to be getting the same deal as everyone else.
Still living at home BTW??

Ghost Buster

Gbear wrote: »

It's probably something that's true of all people.
I think what's possibly different about the Irish is that we became a nation of nouveau riche when we came into vast wealth very quickly in the 90's/00's and that has led to a breathtaking sense of entitlement.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Ok both of you. You have both made sweeping generalisations to the effect that every single adult in the country has lived beyond their means, bought property, new cars, had lavish holidays are deserve to be in the position they now find them selves in.
Care to back that up?
When you do i will tell you my personal position and how i conduct my self and Im sure others can do the same.

Sindri

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Can you prove, unequivocally, to me that I was part of this mess we're in. That I willfully facilitated the economic downfall of this country out side of normal monetary transactions?

Seachmall

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

I willfully abandon any responsibilities you believe I have as a result of me being a member of this society.

I will avoid taking any responsibility for any mistakes you believe I have made.

I owe you nothing.

Nothingbetter2d

i have NO outstanding loans, morgages, or any other debts other than the usual bills........ yet i like many others have to pay for the mistakes of people that bought into the housing hype who were misled by politicians, bankers, and investors.

i'm in no way responsible for having to pay off debt by a private company i owe nothing to. Cowen had no right to dump that on me and everyone else like me.

I_smell_fear

OKAY! I admit it. It was me. I shot JR.

ejmaztec

Sindri wrote: »

Can you prove, unequivocally, to me that I was part of this mess we're in. That I willfully facilitated the economic downfall of this country out side of normal monetary transactions?

I'd like to see a comprehensive list of every irresponsible person in the country.

They should have had another section on the census form to cover it:

Please list each member of the household who feels responsible for putting Ireland in the sh1t.

seamus

I believe this attitude is ingrained into many people from a very early age.

How many parents (hands up), when your child walks into a door you say, "Bold door" and the child smacks the door?

Why do you do this? The door is an inanimate object without the ability to do anything. And besides, the mistake was your child's not the door. You know what the inevitable outcome is? The child will walk into someone, then smack them and say, "Bold". Oh look, you've just programmed your child to blame someone else for their mistakes.

This is something I can recall seeing time and time again growing up, but it's only when I saw my niece doing it that it clicked with me.

What we should be doing is saying, "Whoops, you fell over", pick the child up and let them walk on. If they start crying, cuddle them, but there's no need to blame anyone or anything else.

Bruce7

seamus wrote: »

I believe this attitude is ingrained into many people from a very early age.

How many parents (hands up), when your child walks into a door you say, "Bold door" and the child smacks the door?

Why do you do this? The door is an inanimate object without the ability to do anything. And besides, the mistake was your child's not the door. You know what the inevitable outcome is? The child will walk into someone, then smack them and say, "Bold". Oh look, you've just programmed your child to blame someone else for their mistakes.

This is something I can recall seeing time and time again growing up, but it's only when I saw my niece doing it that it clicked with me.

What we should be doing is saying, "Whoops, you fell over", pick the child up and let them walk on. If they start crying, cuddle them, but there's no need to blame anyone or anything else.

Wait until you have kids of your own, and all your aspirations go out the window, while you do anything it takes to make them shut up.

Sleepy

What's the alternative?

I took out loans, I'm paying them back.

A democratic majority of this country voted for morons because of their disastrous governance (FF's involvement in SSAI's, benchmarking, expansion of public sector, stimulation of the overheated property market, reducing taxes, taking the lowest contributors out of the tax net entirely, etc) or, worse, elected them in exchange for parochial favours.

This same majority were seemingly shocked when these morons continued to govern ineptly during the downturn (bank guarantee) and are now wailing now that the subsequent government have to tighten the belt in order to try and get us out of where we are. A better government would have made deep, painful cuts 4 years ago (or to level the same accusation at the current shower, as soon as they took office).

We collectively get the politicians we collectively deserve. If you don't like it (as I don't) there's only one real answer: reform of the political system. How can you ensure that only those understand what they're voting for vote and only the most capable to govern stand?

Now that's the question and I, for one, can't see how 42 is the answer to this one!

shampon

seamus wrote: »

Why do you do this? The door is an inanimate object....

YOUR AN INANIMATE ****ING OBJECT.....I'm sorry for calling you an inanimate object.

Ghost Buster

seamus wrote: »

I believe this attitude is ingrained into many people from a very early age.

How many parents (hands up), when your child walks into a door you say, "Bold door" and the child smacks the door?

Why do you do this? The door is an inanimate object without the ability to do anything. And besides, the mistake was your child's not the door. You know what the inevitable outcome is? The child will walk into someone, then smack them and say, "Bold". Oh look, you've just programmed your child to blame someone else for their mistakes.

This is something I can recall seeing time and time again growing up, but it's only when I saw my niece doing it that it clicked with me.

What we should be doing is saying, "Whoops, you fell over", pick the child up and let them walk on. If they start crying, cuddle them, but there's no need to blame anyone or anything else.

I have occasionally done this but it is purely to distract the child, lighten the situation and cheer the child up.My boy would laugh when ever i did this. Kids arent totally stupid and know a door is inanimate. I really dont think parents doing this have caused the economic crash to be honest;)

seamus

Bruce7 wrote: »

Wait until you have kids of your own, and all your aspirations go out the window, while you do anything it takes to make them shut up.

Or in other words, "It's not my fault my kids have no sense of personal responsibility?"

Sleepy

Bruce7 wrote: »

Wait until you have kids of your own, and all your aspirations go out the window, while you do anything it takes to make them shut up.

You can do the complete opposite: "Are you trying to break my door?!" said in the right tone of voice will put a small child who's just hurt themselves into absolute *fits* of giggles. Learned that one from my own mother and use it all the time with my kids.

Ghost Buster

Sleepy wrote: »

You can do the complete opposite: "Are you trying to break my door?!" said in the right tone of voice will put a small child who's just hurt themselves into absolute *fits* of giggles. Learned that one from my own mother and use it all the time with my kids.

Personally i think that this whole line of reasoning holds as much credibility as those who claim that kids who play violent video games are responsible for Columbine and other such atrocities. I really dont think Sean Quinns Mother slapping his door growing up caused his current financial problems.
Besides. This is a moot point. ITS EVERY BODYS FAULT. AUDREY SAID SO.;)

Dudess

Ghost Buster wrote: »

We we we we we

I know, it's like the sound of a f'ucking toilet here at times. Appropriate though, seeing as the OP seems to be taking the piss. If not, you can be absolutely sure they don't include themselves, despite the "we" stuff.

I do agree there are some people with an atrocious sense of entitlement - but I'm talking more about those who won't pay their bills/fines/taxes but are happy to let others do so and to use the services these pay for; who for instance park illegally/speed and when clamped/fined it's the bastards they have to pay, not they themselves who are at fault.

But when it comes to much broader concerns (collective ones as opposed to individualised ones, e.g. bills) like the state of the economy, often it actually IS someone else's fault. Ok I didn't complain when times were good, I could leave a job and start a new one whenever I felt like it, I got paid good money for work that you'd get a pittance for these days, so I'm now happy to suck it up a teeny bit, but other than that, I didn't vote FF, didn't live beyond my means, so eh... no, I won't take personal responsibility for stuff that's not my fault and will laugh at lectures from someone who's apparently unaware of the irony of indiscriminately telling a whole faceless collective that they should take "individual" responsibility.
It's furthermore ironic that someone who condemns the "It's always someone else's fault" way of thinking is apportioning blame where it doesn't lie.

Reminds me a bit of the Edmund Burke "All it takes for evil to triumph" thingie which so many think is, loike, REALLY intelligent and deep and stuff, but is effectively saying "Let's blame lots of people who aren't to blame - it's easier than going to the trouble of actually bothering to find out who's really responsible."

ThinkAboutIt

Agree 100% with the OP.

Seachmall

Dudess wrote: »

If not, you can be absolutely sure they don't include themselves, despite the "we" stuff.

+1

Ghost Buster

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Agree 100% with the OP.

Really. Every single person in the country lived beyond their means and so are culpable?
Think about it....
Horse manure sir.....

tayto lover

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Is that you Enda ?

Bruce7

seamus wrote: »

Or in other words, "It's not my fault my kids have no sense of personal responsibility?"

Yes, that's exactly it. Just wait and see how much you care about these concepts when your time comes.

Dudess

Ghost Buster wrote: »

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Agree 100% with the OP.

Really. Every single person in the country lived beyond their means and so are culpable?
Think about it....
Horse manure sir.....

Besides ThinkAboutIt themselves of course...

Bruce7

Dudess wrote: »

Besides ThinkAboutIt themselves of course...

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

forfuxsake

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Totally agree Dudess, fúck blaming the elected officials charged with running the country or the developers, banks , cheap credit - it's your fault for buying bread and going for a beer.

That could be the most ridiculous shyte ever posted.

Ghost Buster

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Or. In a nut shell. By living, consuming and working in ireland you are to blame.
Dumbest post since the original post.

forfuxsake

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Or. In a nut shell. By living, consuming and working in ireland you are to blame.
Dumbest post since the original post.

by not dying.

Bruce7

forfuxsake wrote: »

Totally agree Dudess, fúck blaming the elected officials charged with running the country or the developers, banks , cheap credit - it's your fault for buying bread and going for a beer.

That could be the most ridiculous shyte ever posted.

You didn't understand the post. And you probably don't want to. Simple stories are comforting

suicide_circus

Agree 100% and it is an insidious phenomenon which pervades every part of our society.
However, it does not help matters when Joe Soap sees the financial and corporate classes making whopper immoral and criminal blunders only for the.political classes to bail them out with Joe Soap's tax dollars. Then the political classes tell Joe Soap to own up and knuckle down. Do as I say, not what I do. When our elites seem immune to taking responsibility, it does not foster an environment in which the proletariat are likely to take personal responsibility for anything.

Dudess

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Nice passive-aggressive shyte there - why would I probably not understand this? Are you telling yourself I'm not very bright simply because you disagree with what I've posted?

As you'd have read but obviously ignored, I admitted I have something of a role, and outlined the details explaining what. For that, I am happy to take responsibility. I won't take any more responsibility than I have though.
The bread and milk thing is just silly - and probably an idea dreamed up by people who actually did fuk up big style with money and want others to go down in the sinking ship with them. If you purchased essentials you are not to blame - the alternative would have been to live as a hunter-gatherer. Do YOU feel you owe a considerable debt of responsibility for simply buying e.g. disposable nappies in Dunnes instead of recycling old rags into reusable nappies?

Ghost Buster

Bruce7 wrote: »

You didn't understand the post. And you probably don't want to. Simple stories are comforting

No. He does and, like me, disagrees with it as it is stupid.

Ghost Buster

Dudess wrote: »

Nice passive-aggressive shyte there - why would I probably not understand this? Are you telling yourself I'm not very bright simply because you disagree with what I've posted?

As you'd have read but obviously ignored, I admitted I have something of a role, and outlined the details explaining what. For that, I am happy to take responsibility. I won't take any more responsibility than I have though.
The bread and milk thing is just silly - and probably an idea dreamed up by people who actually did fuk up big style with money and want others to go down in the sinking ship with them. If you purchased essentials you are not to blame - the alternative would have been to live as a hunter-gatherer. Do YOU feel you owe a considerable debt of responsibility for simply buying e.g. disposable nappies in Dunnes instead of recycling old rags into reusable nappies?

So if Ray Mears and Bear Grylls were Irish Audrey wouldnt have started this thread?
Sigh.......

Richard tea

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.


If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Tripe & bull****. No matter who's fault it is you can be guaranteed one thing. Its '' Joe soap'' that pays for it. And you can take that to the bank

ThinkAboutIt

Richard tea wrote: »

Tripe & bull****. No matter who's fault it is you can be guaranteed one thing. Its '' Joe soap'' that pays for it. And you can take that to the bank

Yep, it's someone else's fault.

Dudess

The "we're all to blame" brigade tend to be incapable of critical thought, or trying to pawn off their own mistakes, or are "I'm all right Jack" types who just say it because they think it sounds clever/virtuous, but in no way actually blame themselves.