A Golden Dawn in Greece

Invader_Zimmy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece

If you combine the illegal and legal immigration we are talking about over a million people.

leincar

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

They protect their fellow citizens from dangers criminals and kick out the local drug dealers from their areas. Do you consider this to be a bad thing?

Thats what law and order is for. If the police authorities are not doing there job correctly, you have to ask why. This after all is Greece where the greasing of palms is not unknown.

On your post, how do they protect? what public mandate have they received? Who exactly are they 'protecting' and what price are they exacting for same 'protection?'

Do you condone vigilanties? Much and all as I despise scumbags, who are these people to tell who is and isn't guilty of a crime. More importantly who decides what the crime is?

I think if you scratch the surface, the majority of problems are caused by 'Golden Dawn' supporters from the right and KKK(Communists) from the left.

Once again echoes from the Weimar Republic.

leincar

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece

If you combine the illegal and legal immigration we are talking about over a million people.

So now you have to combine both legal and illegal immigration.

O.K. on that basis we should deport both illegal immigrants and legal immigrants from E.U. countries.

Well hello and welcome home to the 1 million people in the U.K. who claim Irish citizenship and the countless other Irish throughout the E.U.

On your logic should Greece welcome home all of their people who have emigrated in the past to other European countries. Do we stop at Europe.

Hello Sydney and Melbourne, all your Greeks are going home to the old country.

Really, think about it, you are talking pure and utter sh1te.

Dr Galen

leincar wrote: »

I have to disagree there. I dislike isms be they on the left wing or right wing. I definately don't do religious fundamentalisms of the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish variety.

However, by giving the people who support these isms a voice it shows up their pure and utter ignorance and the fact that they could all do with a bloody good kick in the arse.

Two people on this thread have posted or liked a post. On a lot of issues I would disagree with them yet on issues like this both Nodin and Wes would share my opinion despite our political differences.

You never shut people up because their politics and opinions differ with your own.

Personally speaking, this is exactly the reason that I wouldn't close this thread.

Expose the nonsense and bile that comes from groups like Golden Dawn, and you win the fight against them. Ignore it, and hope it goes it away (which it won't) and you lose.

laoch na mona

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece

If you combine the illegal and legal immigration we are talking about over a million people.

how many are in positions of power and legal ones have every right to be there
you cant blame foreigners when your government makes a mess of things

Denerick

A rise in extremism is the price countries pay for mass austerity. Greece is suffering a collapse not seen since the great depression. Its inevitable that such groups should emerge as electoral forces. But take heed - the left and far left great, vastly outnumbered the golden dawn vote in the most recent election. I'm not seeing Nuremberg just yet.

Nodin

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece

If you combine the illegal and legal immigration we are talking about over a million people.

You earlier article put "illegals" at 300,000. Theres still no sign of this phenomena of them "wrecking" greece.....

Whats your problem with legal immigration.

Benny_Cake

leincar wrote: »

I think if you scratch the surface, the majority of problems are caused by 'Golden Dawn' supporters from the right and KKK(Communists) from the left.

Once again echoes from the Weimar Republic.

Leftwing violence in Greece tends to emanate from self described "anarchists", who are unrepresented in parliament. The KKE may be unreformed Stalinists, but they are disciplined ones and have no chance of winning political power (no real desire to do so either). The Golden Dawn make no secret of their violence.

jank

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

do communist groups go around beating up immigrants and killing people *before* they get into power?

i guess the neo nazis just try harder so they get more attention

Well I guess they save their savagery and cruelty until after they get into power. They spend most of their efforts outside of power sprouting off socialist "workers of the world unite" claptrap. Communist regeimes have killed far more then facist regeimes have had so I was just curious why both are not rightly targeted by the media. Like you never have theards here giving out about it but can have many about the national front in France, Golden Dawn in Greece, even the BNP in the UK, a favourite pastime for many.

books4sale

...Adolf?

IrishAm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Of course the fact that they see immigrants as 'criminal elements' is beside the point. They are self-appointed vigilantes placing themselves above the law - that in itself is criminal.

Illegal immigrants are criminals are they not?

If all EU member states repatriated illegal immigrants, support for the far right would dramatically fall.

Very few europeans against immigration, but an awful lot are sick and tired of illegal immigration.

Bannasidhe

IrishAm wrote: »

Illegal immigrants are criminals are they not?

If all EU member states repatriated illegal immigrants, support for the far right would dramatically fall.

Very few europeans against immigration, but an awful lot are sick and tired of illegal immigration.

It is not the job of members of any political movement to enforce the law - it is the job of the elected government and civil authorities.

Plus, the GD want all non-Greeks out of Greece - legal or illegal. Would they be happy if every country followed that path - how would Greece cope with millions of Greeks repatriated from countries like Australia and the U.S.?

BTW- the Jews of Europe were not illegal immigrants, nor were gypsies, nor homosexuals, nor pacifists - but the Far Right took it upon itself to attempt to exterminate as many of them as possible.

This is nothing but hate-mongering and blaming easy targets for Greece's troubles, how conveniently the GD ignore the problems caused by massive tax evasion by Greeks.

Nodin

books4sale wrote: »

...Adolf?

Adolfous.

Technocentral

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

As I said, immigration is causing a great burden to the Greek economy. http://www.economist.com/node/16847278 Here is more information how illegal immigration is destabilising Greece.

Widespread corruption and tax evasion, greed at every level of society plus a disastrous public sector destroyed Greece, its the Greek peoples fault, neo nazis like you can't blame the immigrants on this one. :mad:

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is not the job of members of any political movement to enforce the law - it is the job of the elected government and civil authorities.

.

This is true, however, if the state actually enforces these laws 100% of the time the bleeding heart liberals and PC types then jump on the bandwagon about unfair treatment and singling out of vulnerable minorities/aslyum seekers. There will always be organisation primarily on the left ready and waiting to jump to someones aid for the apparent greater cause of humanity regardless to whatever laws were broken originally. So the above is not really a true reflection of the reality. It is not only the right that tries to "enforce" the law of the land.

fianna saor

books4sale wrote: »

...Adolf?

adolf who? ... is he from greece..... is he part of golden dawn perhaps?

Gee Bag

jank wrote: »

This is true, however, if the state actually enforces these laws 100% of the time the bleeding heart liberals and PC types then jump on the bandwagon about unfair treatment and singling out of vulnerable minorities/aslyum seekers. There will always be organisation primarily on the left ready and waiting to jump to someones aid for the apparent greater cause of humanity regardless to whatever laws were broken originally. So the above is not really a true reflection of the reality. It is not only the right that tries to "enforce" the law of the land.

There is an enormous differnence between an asylum seeker and an economic migrant. The former is someone forced to flee their home country because of persecution, the latter leaves because they are looking for work and a better life.....kind of like all the Irish who went to America, Britain, Austrailia, etc, etc

jank

Gee Bag wrote: »

There is an enormous differnence between an asylum seeker and an economic migrant. The former is someone forced to flee their home country because of persecution, the latter leaves because they are looking for work and a better life.....kind of like all the Irish who went to America, Britain, Austrailia, etc, etc

I totally agree, however whatever label one would put on someone the laws of the land must be upheld. There has been plenty of cases here in Ireland where people claim to be asylum seekers yet evidence doesn't back this up. When this transpires and deportation is ordered you get left wing PC groups backing them to hilt regardless of evidence or laws. I think this is what irks a lot of people. We all by and large follow the laws of the state, why should a certain group be any different.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/asylum-seeker-pamela-izevbekhai-deported-to-nigeria-2825213.html

fianna saor

jank wrote: »

I totally agree, however whatever label one would put on someone the laws of the land must be upheld. There has been plenty of cases here in Ireland where people claim to be asylum seekers yet evidence doesn't back this up. When this transpires and deportation is ordered you get left wing PC groups backing them to hilt regardless of evidence or laws. I think this is what irks a lot of people. We all by and large follow the laws of the state, why should a certain group be any different.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/asylum-seeker-pamela-izevbekhai-deported-to-nigeria-2825213.html

they're different because of political correctness gone mad, people are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled a racist or whatever, and thats even when it comes to the law ive seen many circumstances where a foreign national has been shown lenience simply just because he is a foreign national, that cant be right in anybodies book.

Bannasidhe

fianna saor wrote: »

they're different because of political correctness gone mad, people are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled a racist or whatever, and thats even when it comes to the law ive seen many circumstances where a foreign national has been shown lenience simply just because he is a foreign national, that cant be right in anybodies book.

I always find it strange that the 'PC' brigade are blamed when people don't agree with what fascists have to say - yet, it is that same PC Brigade who argue for freedom of speech which allows those same fascists to spew their bile across forums such as this.

Those same fascists who seek to deny so many freedoms - including the freedom to not be beaten up because of one's religion, skin colour or ethnic origin.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

slightly off topic but the "pc brigade" most certainly does not defend freedom of speech

"hate speech" ringing a bell?

Bullrush

Sorry state of affairs. All sensible people should take this as a warning of how bad things are becoming in Greece.

fianna saor

Bullrush wrote: »

Sorry state of affairs. All sensible people should take this as a warning of how bad things are becoming in Greece.

why because their politics differ from yours?

Bannasidhe

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

slightly off topic but the "pc brigade" most certainly does not defend freedom of speech

"hate speech" ringing a bell?

Yes- I have read quite a bit of thinly veiled hate speech on this here thread. Yet, no-one has censored it. Funny that.

golden lane

sad for the innocent hardworking people in greece........why they couldn't see it coming, is beyond me.......

the eu failed experiment will get a bad place in history..........


social reform, became the social gravy train.....political correctness became a prison for ordinary people.....

did web not learn as kids.....when we wantede to play a game, and too many rules were made.....the result was chaos........

laoch na mona

im shocked how people failed to learn from hitler, mussolini, stalin or any other dictator

FullRetard

and here was me thinking Golden Dawn was Greece's hooligan firm.You learn something new everyday.

Whats greek for 'muslim rayguns'?

Nodin

golden lane wrote: »

.....political correctness became a prison for ordinary people.....

........

...and that refers specically to what..?

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

...and that refers specically to what..?

Perhaps it sounds better in Greek - checks with Greek friends - nope. It's a meaningless soundbite in many languages.

golden lane

Nodin wrote: »

...and that refers specically to what..?

all political correctness.........lack of freedom...

Nodin

golden lane wrote: »

all political correctness.........lack of freedom...

Thats more vague waffle, in an answer to a question about vague waffle.

What precisely are you referring to by

.....political correctness became a prison for ordinary people

A few examples, in relation to Greece preferably please.

Denerick

golden lane wrote: »

all political correctness.........lack of freedom...

You do realise that political correctness is merely a form of peer pressure? It came about because people understood that segregation, death camps and discrimination are pretty odious things. Most modern nation states still permit a great deal of freedom for fringe fanatics to spout their elemental hatred and fury, which is why neo nazi groups are allowed to stand in elections. The fact that political correctness is enforced by individuals and not the state is a sign of mass public enlightenment. There has always been neanderthals lurking in our mist, threatening everything that the democratic republic stands for. And they will always be there. But bear in mind that history, and your grandchildren, will hold you beneath contempt.

Invader_Zimmy

Any violence used is just proactive self defense from their part to be honest, you would understand this if you read the news properly.

Bannasidhe

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Any violence used is just proactive self defense from their part to be honest, you would understand this if you read the news properly.

What? - are you claiming that they are beating people up before those people beat them up?

Invader_Zimmy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What? - are you claiming that they are beating people up before those people beat them up?

Precisely, no innocent has anything to fear.

Bannasidhe

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Precisely, no innocent has anything to fear.

Do you really believe that?

HamletOrHecuba

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Precisely, no innocent has anything to fear.

Take it you dont know Greece?

Im not a lefty but these people are dangerous (as are the anarchists in Greece in fairness).

Nodin

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Any violence used is just proactive self defense from their part to be honest, you would understand this if you read the news properly.

Fascinating. Well you might show us where in the news we've missed this acts of "proactive self defense".

HamletOrHecuba

Nodin wrote: »

Fascinating. Well you might show us where in the news we've missed this acts of "proactive self defense".

Of course Golden Dawn have nothing on the murderers of Sinn Fein.

Bannasidhe

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Of course Golden Dawn have nothing on the murderers of Sinn Fein.

What does SF have to do with the rise of a fascist party in Greece?

Gee Bag

fianna saor wrote: »

they're different because of political correctness gone mad, people are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled a racist or whatever, and thats even when it comes to the law ive seen many circumstances where a foreign national has been shown lenience simply just because he is a foreign national, that cant be right in anybodies book.

At this stage the term political correctness is pejorative. There is nothing wrong with having empathy. As for political correctness gone mad, well, thats a favourite line of the Daily Mail.

The difference between an economic migrant and an asylum seeker is enormous. The right to political asylum is guaranteed by the Geneva Convention. The number of economic migrants who have tried to claim asylum with bogus stories have served to muddy the water and have made it more difficult for genuine asylum seekers. It would be a terrrible injustice to send genuine asylum seekers back to face torture, imprisonment or death in order to weed out economic migrants.

Lenience shown by courts in relation to custodial sentences is usually based on the fact that certain races have it a hell of a lot tougher here in prison and some judges are prepared to acknowlegde that during sentencing.

Giving asylum to someone who may be persecuted or faced with torture or death in their home country because of their religion, political belief, etc. is not a sign of weakness.

Gee Bag

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Any violence used is just proactive self defense from their part to be honest, you would understand this if you read the news properly.

........and tell me, where can one find a copy of Die Sturmer these days?

Proactive self-defence sounds very much like a euphimism for attack

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I always find it strange that the 'PC' brigade are blamed when people don't agree with what fascists have to say - yet, it is that same PC Brigade who argue for freedom of speech which allows those same fascists to spew their bile across forums such as this.

Those same fascists who seek to deny so many freedoms - including the freedom to not be beaten up because of one's religion, skin colour or ethnic origin.

Em, are you implying then that anyone who speaks out about illegal immigration is a fascist?

When I hear a rant like that one posted above I chuckle and think of the same mindset that vandalised Winston Churchill's statue in a May day protest in 2000 with the simple term "Fascist". Irony doesn't need a friend.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes- I have read quite a bit of thinly veiled hate speech on this here thread. Yet, no-one has censored it. Funny that.

What exactly is "hateful"? Anything hateful would have been reported and the poster banned.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What does SF have to do with the rise of a fascist party in Greece?

Both are fringe parties with ludicrous policies who have tricked a few extra people into supporting them during a recession?

JustinDee

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

Any violence used is just proactive self defense from their part to be honest . . . etc . . . etc

What utter bilge.
A pre-emptive bout of violence is legal in what way exactly? Who has a legal mandate to administer a kicking on behalf of everyone else?

It is a delusion to claim the moral high ground when basing the blame for the current situation across Europe on 'foreigners'. Greeks should look a lot closer to home. Their own doorstep, in fact.

fianna saor

Gee Bag wrote: »

At this stage the term political correctness is pejorative. There is nothing wrong with having empathy. As for political correctness gone mad, well, thats a favourite line of the Daily Mail.

The difference between an economic migrant and an asylum seeker is enormous. The right to political asylum is guaranteed by the Geneva Convention. The number of economic migrants who have tried to claim asylum with bogus stories have served to muddy the water and have made it more difficult for genuine asylum seekers. It would be a terrrible injustice to send genuine asylum seekers back to face torture, imprisonment or death in order to weed out economic migrants.

Lenience shown by courts in relation to custodial sentences is usually based on the fact that certain races have it a hell of a lot tougher here in prison and some judges are prepared to acknowlegde that during sentencing.

Giving asylum to someone who may be persecuted or faced with torture or death in their home country because of their religion, political belief, etc. is not a sign of weakness.

certain races have it tougher? what a load of sh1te. does that mean if an irishman commits a serious crime and gets maybe 6 years and lets say a nigerian commits the same crime he should get less because he has it tougher in prison? ..... get a grip, please.... you do the crime, you do the time, simple. no matter what race you are.......i wonder when you mention the geneva convention did it ever imagine that a small country just managing to keep its head above water should have the influx it did of immigrants whether illegal or not, would be justified..... as far as i am aware the asylum seekers are supposed to find refuge in the first country they enter, how many direct flights do you come from nigeria to dublin?????

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Both are fringe parties with ludicrous policies who have tricked a few extra people into supporting them during a recession?

fringe party, :rolleyes:

Nodin

fianna saor wrote: »

................... as far as i am aware the asylum seekers are supposed to find refuge in the first country they enter, how many direct flights do you come from nigeria to dublin?????
...............

I think you'll find this answers your query.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59465073&postcount=1

We have the lowest acceptance rate of Asylum seekers in the EU
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0121/1224288008903.html

fianna saor

Nodin wrote: »

I think you'll find this answers your query.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59465073&postcount=1

We have the lowest acceptance rate of Asylum seekers in the EU
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0121/1224288008903.html

have to say i dont believe that irish times article for a second 'the government rejected 99% of asylum claims'. then again if its in the papers and on boards it has to be true:rolleyes:

marienbad

IrishAm wrote: »

Illegal immigrants are criminals are they not?

If all EU member states repatriated illegal immigrants, support for the far right would dramatically fall.

Very few europeans against immigration, but an awful lot are sick and tired of illegal immigration.

As long as those illegal immigrants are not Irish of course .Amazing how short the memory is with some people.

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

As long as those illegal immigrants are not Irish of course .Amazing how short the memory is with some people.

how do you mean?