A Golden Dawn in Greece

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

how do you mean?

How do you think we usually solve our problems in recessions ?

Nodin

fianna saor wrote: »

have to say i dont believe that irish times article for a second 'the government rejected 99% of asylum claims'. then again if its in the papers and on boards it has to be true:rolleyes:

Its also in the UN

On the 23 and 24 May 2011 the United Nations Committee Against Torture (UNCAT) reviewed Ireland's human rights record in preventing torture, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment for the first time.

The Committee expressed serious concern about Ireland's increasing decline in recognition rates for refugees, with Ireland currently rejecting 98.5% of refugee status applications. The Committee suggested that the recession was provoking tough policies on immigration, urged reform and noted that the current rate of 1.5% (well below the EU average recognition rate of 27%) was "a little extreme".

http://www.pila.ie/bulletin/2011/june/2-june-2011/un-calls-irish-refugee-acceptance-rate-quot-extreme-quot-iprt-amp-iccl-launch-joint-report-under-torture-convention/


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-25-granted-asylum-last-year-lowest-rate-in-eu-2599995.html

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

How do you think we usually solve our problems in recessions ?

enlighten me

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

enlighten me

immigration - legal and illegal and all for economic reasons and none for asylum . How quickly we forget that we were the ''no Irish need apply'' category.

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

immigration - legal and illegal and all for economic reasons and none for asylum . How quickly we forget that we were the ''no Irish need apply'' category.

no i dont forget it, im simply saying we should return the favour

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

no i dont forget it, im simply saying we should return the favour

How so ??

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

How so ??

by giving priority to irish workers

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

by giving priority to irish workers

and what about all those Irsh workers in Canada USA Australia NZ Europe ? How would you feel if that policy was applied to them ?

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

and what about all those Irsh workers in Canada USA Australia NZ Europe ? How would you feel if that policy was applied to them ?

chances are it probably does, and as your earlier post it definitely did

Nodin

fianna saor wrote: »

chances are it probably does, and as your earlier post it definitely did

So because some countries discriminated in the past, its ok for this country to discriminate now against people originally from other countries (not just the ones who discriminated in the past).

That's not even following the 'logic' of revenge.

JustinDee

fianna saor wrote: »

by giving priority to irish workers

Discrimination. Thats as illegal as illegal immigration.
Also a tad idealistic to presume that all these Irish folk you seem to feel are leapfrogged by Johnny Foreigner are actively seeking work.

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

chances are it probably does, and as your earlier post it definitely did

All I can say is try reading a book some time , that is other than Mein Kampf.

fianna saor

JustinDee wrote: »

Discrimination. Thats as illegal as illegal immigration.
Also a tad idealistic to presume that all these Irish folk you seem to feel are leapfrogged by Johnny Foreigner are actively seeking work.

no not all, but a lot are. ive known many companies who have relieved irish workers of their jobs only to refill them with foreign workers for cheap labour and
unbelievable contract terms.

as far as the irish folk not actively seeking work, they are also a scourge and give the irish a bad name as far as im concerned, ok we all know the work is tight but if they are too lazy to get up off their arse then that is different, and ive mentioned in other threads suggestions of how that should pan out.

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

All I can say is try reading a book some time , that is other than Mein Kampf.

i read many books and ive actually never read mein kampf!

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

no not all, but a lot are. ive known many companies who have relieved irish workers of their jobs only to refill them with foreign workers for cheap labour and
unbelievable contract terms.

as far as the irish folk not actively seeking work, they are also a scourge and give the irish a bad name as far as im concerned, ok we all know the work is tight but if they are too lazy to get up off their arse then that is different, and ive mentioned in other threads suggestions of how that should pan out.

So why blame the foreign workers rather than the Irish companies ?

May I ask have you ever lived and worked abroad ?

jank

marienbad wrote: »

and what about all those Irsh workers in Canada USA Australia NZ Europe ? How would you feel if that policy was applied to them ?

I don't know what the situation is like in other countries but I have been consistent about illegal Irish people over staying their visa's in Australia. They should be caught and deported, like anyone else. Does that make me a fascist?

JustinDee

fianna saor wrote: »

no not all, but a lot are. ive known many companies who have relieved irish workers of their jobs only to refill them with foreign workers for cheap labour and unbelievable contract terms

Since you're taking the anecdotal route to back up your generalism, how do you think your anonymous claim compares to the number of companies out there who discriminate against existing or prospective employees just because they are not Irish? They can be British, Aussie, Sth African, Kiwi, American or Canadian too. Not just the proverbial image of a 'fard'ner'.

That old neighbour's ass, eh?

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What does SF have to do with the rise of a fascist party in Greece?

Golden Dawn is in some respects not dissimilar to Sinn Fein of perhaps ten or twenty years ago. As with all fringe political movements, both left or right wing, they both shared a number of similarities:

• Simplistic identification of social ills, be it illegal immigration, Capitalism or Irish partitionism.
• Nostalgia for an ideology which has essentially not developed much in 70+ years.
• Propensity to attract thuggish supporters.

Sinn Fein, love them or loath them, matured a fair bit and began to tone down the thuggish image and importantly developed policies beyond it's core beliefs. Golden Dawn isn't there yet - they don't really have much in the way of policies beyond some vague anti-immigration, pro-nationalism platform.

Then again, neither has SYRIZA - they're just a coalition of far left groups who happen to agree on a handful of positions; beyond which there's not much there - probably more substance than Golden Dawn, but not by much.

Of course, the danger now is that SYRIZA will take power in a new election, cause Greece to default which will lead Greece to be pushed out of the Euro. With the economic chaos that will inevitably follow this could well lead to Golden Dawn taking power, either democratically or otherwise.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's ask our EU partners Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain and Portugal, France, Poland, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium etc how life under Fascism turned out for them shall we?

Actually in those nations that developed their own Fascism, rather than have it imposed from without, it enjoyed considerable support in many cases. The idea that Fascism has no redeeming features or was some form of tyranny that the US-USSR liberated us all from was essentially invented as a result of World War II and, of course, the revelation of the Holocaust.

Prior to that, things were not seen as so black and white. For example, in 1937 Churchill went so far as to write of Adolf Hitler that "if our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations" and Mussolini was described as "that admirable Italian gentleman" by Roosevelt in 1933.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

They also use the Nazi salute

Technically, if anything, it is a Roman Salute, which was adopted originally by Italian Fascism and later by other forms of Fascism, including National Socialism.

It does seem clear that Golden Dawn draws from Fascist ideology, but I'm not entirely certain which flavour as accusations of Nazism can easily be founded in an attempt to discredit as from truth. However, if they do draw from National Socialism, I'd find this bizarre. Adopting the very form of Fascism that was principally founded on Aryan racialism in a country that was part of a non-Aryan empire for so long is really a bit self defeating, such was the level of fraternization and cultural crossover.

As an old friend who spent a few years there as a diplomat once told me, when describing modern Greek culture; a Greek is a Turk, who thinks he's Italian. Apologies to any Greek reading this, and I'd admit something similar could be said for Ireland and England, however my principle reason for doing so is to point out that Greek National Socialism would in many respects be a bit of an oxymoron.

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

So why blame the foreign workers rather than the Irish companies ?

May I ask have you ever lived and worked abroad ?

you may, i have not nor would not.

JustinDee wrote: »

Since you're taking the anecdotal route to back up your generalism, how do you think your anonymous claim compares to the number of companies out there who discriminate against existing or prospective employees just because they are not Irish? They can be British, Aussie, Sth African, Kiwi, American or Canadian too. Not just the proverbial image of a 'fard'ner'.

That old neighbour's ass, eh?

well i dont know the stats i was basing my statement on companies ive known if you cared to read it properly

JustinDee

fianna saor wrote: »

you may, i have not nor would not

Never worked abroad?? How old are you?
Give it a whirl. Travel does broaden the mind.

fianna saor wrote: »

well i dont know the stats i was basing my statement on companies ive known if you cared to read it properly

I did read it properly. Thats why it was identified as anecdotal (thus generalistic speculation) as opposed to actual proof of anything.

fianna saor

JustinDee wrote: »

Never worked abroad?? How old are you?
Give it a whirl. Travel does broaden the mind.


I did read it properly. Thats why it was identified as anecdotal (thus generalistic speculation) as opposed to actual proof of anything.

my age is not relevant and i have actually traveled plenty, i just wish to live and work in ireland.

be realistic companies are not actually going to admit these goings on

JustinDee

fianna saor wrote: »

my age is not relevant and i have actually traveled plenty, i just wish to live and work in ireland[/quiote]
It is relevant. There are bugger all Irish who have not spent at least some time abroad. The way it always been and always will be.

fianna saor wrote: »

be realistic companies are not actually going to admit these goings on

Yet they confide in you? Nobody confides that they'll refuse to sign up an overseas candidate even if more qualified than a 'local'?
Y'see all of that is illegal, especially the latter, which you happen to support.

fianna saor

JustinDee wrote: »

fianna saor wrote: »

my age is not relevant and i have actually traveled plenty, i just wish to live and work in ireland[/quiote]
It is relevant. There are bugger all Irish who have not spent at least some time abroad. The way it always been and always will be.


Yet they confide in you? Nobody confides that they'll refuse to sign up an overseas candidate even if more qualified than a 'local'?
Y'see all of that is illegal, especially the latter, which you happen to support.

why is my age relevant in any of this.

and no they didnt all confide in me, some i know the owners of the business and some the employees.

Bannasidhe

How is the fault of immigrants if greedy Irish employers want to exploit them by paying them less then they would pay an Irish worker?
Seems to me the fault lies with the Irish employers.

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

you may, i have not nor would not.



well i dont know the stats i was basing my statement on companies ive known if you cared to read it properly

So you have never lived/worked abroad , not would not ! You make it sound like a policy statement ! Would I be correct then in deducing that you would like to apply that same rule to any foreigners in Ireland ?

Also can I have an answer to my other question - why blame the workers and not the employers ?

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually in those nations that developed their own Fascism, rather than have it imposed from without, it enjoyed considerable support in many cases. The idea that Fascism has no redeeming features or was some form of tyranny that the US-USSR liberated us all from was essentially invented as a result of World War II and, of course, the revelation of the Holocaust.

Prior to that, things were not seen as so black and white. For example, in 1937 Churchill went so far as to write of Adolf Hitler that "if our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations" and Mussolini was described as "that admirable Italian gentleman" by Roosevelt in 1933.

So widespread local support was the reason the Spanish Felange revolted against a democratically elected left wing government was it?

There was widespread resistance to National Socialism in Germany too.

Approximately 77,000 German citizens were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts martial, and the civil justice system. Many of these Germans had served in government, the military, or in civil positions, which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy; in addition the Canadian historian Peter Hoffman counts unspecified "tens of thousands" in concentration camps who were either suspected or actually engaged in opposition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance

And in Italy there was the Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_resistance_movement

Next you'll tell me they made the trains run on time.

golden lane

greece suffered from the european fever for too long.........

the symptons are......government employees retiring on big pensions far too early.......

the fulll blown disease is notable by a determination to blame everyody else......and there is no short term cure.........a few years of chaos and austerity, is the only way to get some relief until it returns again...

Nodin

golden lane wrote: »

greece suffered from the european fever for too long.........

the symptons are......government employees retiring on big pensions far too early.......

the fulll blown disease is notable by a determination to blame everyody else......and there is no short term cure.........a few years of chaos and austerity, is the only way to get some relief until it returns again...

You might get back to me on this, thanks.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78695216&postcount=82

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So widespread local support was the reason the Spanish Felange revolted against a democratically elected left wing government was it?

I specifically said "in many cases", I never tried to make a sweeping generalization implying all cases as you did, so rebutting a point I never made is a straw man argument.

There was widespread resistance to National Socialism in Germany too.

And in Italy there was the Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_resistance_movement

Again, I never suggested that there was no resistance or dissension; I specifically spoke of "considerable support", not absolute - so that's another straw man.

Next you'll tell me they made the trains run on time.

And next you'll be telling me that because the Socialist Workers party exists, Western liberal democracy does not enjoy "considerable support" either.

The reality is that a number of pre-War Fascist regimes did in fact enjoy a considerable amount of popular support - lest you forget that the Nazi's actually got elected to power. This did not apply to all Fascist governments, in particular those that were imposed by either Germany or Italy, and neither does it mean that opposition did not exist or, for that matter, that support did not fade, naturally, as a result of a prolonged and unsuccessful War.

However neither are your sweeping generalizations about how terrible life under Fascism was for the bulk of the populations of those countries correct.

The Corinthian

fianna saor wrote: »

why is my age relevant in any of this.

Because some of what you have written could be interpreted as coming from someone quite young and naive.

I would have to say that as someone who has lived and worked abroad, can speak a number of other languages and has had quite a bit of experience with other cultures, your attitude does strike me as quite provincial.

If one is young, this is excusable, but beyond a certain age it's disconcerting as it appears to seek to promote a stagnant cultural model unable to interact with others and thus unable to evolve - and all of your arguments have been about maintaining an untouched cultural homogeneity which inevitably leads to this stagnation.

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

I specifically said "in many cases", I never tried to make a sweeping generalization implying all cases as you did, so rebutting a point I never made is a straw man argument.

Again, I never suggested that there was no resistance or dissension; I specifically spoke of "considerable support", not absolute - so that's another straw man.

And next you'll be telling me that because the Socialist Workers party exists, Western liberal democracy does not enjoy "considerable support" either.

The reality is that a number of pre-War Fascist regimes did in fact enjoy a considerable amount of popular support - lest you forget that the Nazi's actually got elected to power. This did not apply to all Fascist governments, in particular those that were imposed by either Germany or Italy, and neither does it mean that opposition did not exist or, for that matter, that support did not fade, naturally, as a result of a prolonged and unsuccessful War.

However neither are your sweeping generalizations about how terrible life under Fascism was for the bulk of the populations of those countries correct.

You mean this statement that is riddled with qualifications

'Actually in those nations that developed their own Fascism, rather than have it imposed from without, it enjoyed considerable support in many cases'

And I pointed out that in the 3 of the 4 European countries where an indigenous form of fascism was able to gain control there was widespread internal opposition. There was also widespread resistance in Portugal to Salazer's regime - countered by a secret police, assassination etc etc. So that's 4 out of 4.


I made no statements whatsoever about what life was like under fascist regimes - I did suggest those who lived under fascist regimes be consulted.

I absolutely made no reference to any Socialist Party - so I have no idea why you threw that comment in unless it is to muddy the waters.

If you wish to discuss totalitarian regimes of all political hues may I suggest you start a thread on that topic. This thread is about the rise of a fascist party in Greece - so I am restricting my comments to fascist parties.

Your many strawmen appear to be on fire by the way.

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You mean this statement that is riddled with qualifications

I mean it's not a sweeping generalization, as yours was. They tend to be factually false.

And I pointed out that in the 3 of the 4 European countries where an indigenous form of fascism was able to gain control there was widespread internal opposition.

Actually, you didn't. You just cited that there was opposition and linked to articles that certainly do not back up any notion of "widespread internal opposition". Instead, for example, the article on German opposition cited that "all sources agree that Hitler’s regime was overwhelmingly popular with the German people during [1933-39]".

Did you even read those articles before citing them as 'proof'?

I made no statements whatsoever about what life was like under fascist regimes - I did suggest those who lived under fascist regimes be consulted.

So it was a rhetorical question?

That's a bit disingenuous, TBH. You clearly implied that their response would paint an unpleasant picture when consulted, thus in effect making your claim.

I absolutely made no reference to any Socialist Party - so I have no idea why you threw that comment in unless it is to muddy the waters.

I was highlighting how ridiculous your reasoning was by applying it to a modern setting which we can be easily disprove.

If you wish to discuss totalitarian regimes of all political hues may I suggest you start a thread on that topic. This thread is about the rise of a fascist party in Greece - so I am restricting my comments to fascist parties.

I'm sorry, would you prefer to make factually inaccurate sweeping claims without someone pointing out that you're wrong?

Your many strawmen appear to be on fire by the way.

What straw men? Seriously, you've not actually pointed any out. Do you even know what they are?

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

I mean it's not a sweeping generalization, as yours was. They tend to be factually false.

Actually, you didn't. You just cited that there was opposition and linked to articles that certainly do not back up any notion of "widespread internal opposition". Instead, for example, the article on German opposition cited that "all sources agree that Hitler’s regime was overwhelmingly popular with the German people during [1933-39]".

Did you even read those articles before citing them as 'proof'?

So it was a rhetorical question?

That's a bit disingenuous, TBH. You clearly implied that their response would paint an unpleasant picture when consulted, thus in effect making your claim.

I was highlighting how ridiculous your reasoning was by applying it to a modern setting which we can be easily disprove.

I'm sorry, would you prefer to make factually inaccurate sweeping claims without someone pointing out that you're wrong?

What straw men? Seriously, you've not actually pointed any out. Do you even know what they are?

So, is it your premise that fascism is a reasonable system of government as long as fascist regimes remain with in their own borders - as they mostly did pre-1933 - and are justified in creating a secret police, employing assassination and internment without trial to preserve the State?

I would say that any government which needs to employ terror tactics to maintain control - as all of the Totalitarian States did -is not a reasonable system of government.

I do find your tone quite patronising - is this your intent?

The Corinthian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So, is it your premise that fascism is a reasonable system of government as long as fascist regimes remain with in their own borders - as they mostly did pre-1933 - and are justified in creating a secret police, employing assassination and internment without trial to preserve the State?

Where did I say that? At no point have I made any such claim or suggestion. You claimed, more correctly implied, that if you'd ask a citizen of a nation under such a regime what they thought of it, you'd automatically get a negative answer. I corrected this completely false historical claim.

Now you appear to be under the belief that unless one goes out of their way to condemn Fascism, without questioning false claims that (God forbid) may actually not condemn it, they must be promoting it? Bizarre.

I do find your tone quite patronising - is this your intent?

If you can suggest a manner in which I can explain to you that what you've said is a ridiculous and factually incorrect generalization, that your subsequent 'proof' actually contradicts you and that you don't appear to know what a straw man is, I'm all ears.

I am pie

Are you a politician Corinthian? You have that knack of not really making your position clear.

Are you a fascist?

Would you support or vote for fascism in your native country?

Bannasidhe

The Corinthian wrote: »

Where did I say that? At no point have I made any such claim or suggestion. You claimed, more correctly implied, that if you'd ask a citizen of a nation under such a regime what they thought of it, you'd automatically get a negative answer. I corrected this completely false historical claim.

Now you appear to be under the belief that unless one goes out of their way to condemn Fascism, without questioning false claims that (God forbid) may actually not condemn it, they must be promoting it? Bizarre.

If you can suggest a manner in which I can explain to you that what you've said is a ridiculous and factually incorrect generalization, that your subsequent 'proof' actually contradicts you and that you don't appear to know what a straw man is, I'm all ears.

I'll take that as a yes shall I?

marienbad

The Corinthian wrote: »

Where did I say that? At no point have I made any such claim or suggestion. You claimed, more correctly implied, that if you'd ask a citizen of a nation under such a regime what they thought of it, you'd automatically get a negative answer. I corrected this completely false historical claim.

Now you appear to be under the belief that unless one goes out of their way to condemn Fascism, without questioning false claims that (God forbid) may actually not condemn it, they must be promoting it? Bizarre.

If you can suggest a manner in which I can explain to you that what you've said is a ridiculous and factually incorrect generalization, that your subsequent 'proof' actually contradicts you and that you don't appear to know what a straw man is, I'm all ears.

But what are you actually saying Corinthian ? The fascist regimes have had interal support , have also had internal opposition ? Both of which are true . So I don't know exactly what is your point ? I suspect that you and Bannasidhe may be more in agreeement overall than disagreement.

Now if you are saying that people like democracy but love order even more , then that is something I agree with . ( not the sentiment mind you- just the statement) - Putin's Russia for example and possibly Greece with this Golden Shower crowd:)

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

But what are you actually saying Corinthian ? The fascist regimes have had interal support , have also had internal opposition ? Both of which are true . So I don't know exactly what is your point ? I suspect that you and Bannasidhe may be more in agreeement overall than disagreement.

Now if you are saying that people like democracy but love order even more , then that is something I agree with . ( not the sentiment mind you- just the statement) - Putin's Russia for example and possibly Greece with this Golden Shower crowd:)

I certainly wouldn't deny that fascist's have garnered a great deal of internal support in some countries. In other's it proved to be a non-starter.
Nor would I deny that if one toed that party line - life could be good in a fascist State. As long as one fit their (usually but not exclusively ethnic) criteria for membership in the collective.
I do think that to use the period between 1933-1939 to provide the proof for 'widespread' support is disingenuous as it implies that had some of the fascist states not engaged in expansionism there would not be an issue with it as a system of government. I think the Mother's of the Disappeared in Argentina would strongly disagree with this suggestion.
I would also posit that as the fascist states (indeed all Totalitarian States) are extremely effective in silencing dissent needs to be taken in consideration when assessing the level of internal support.

The Corinthian

I am pie wrote: »

You have that knack of not really making your position clear.

I actually thought I did in my first post.

Would you support or vote for fascism in your native country?

My native country? Making a few presumptions there, aren't we?

And while on the subject of jumping to conclusions; given your above presumption, are you xenophobic or racist?

As to whether I would vote for a fascist party in Ireland, or elsewhere, I think you can probably ascertain that from my first post and what I wrote about extremist parties and ideologies that have not gone anywhere for the better part of a century.

marienbad wrote: »

But what are you actually saying Corinthian ? The fascist regimes have had interal support , have also had internal opposition ? Both of which are true . So I don't know exactly what is your point ?

Essentially that is all I said. My point is that if you're going to argue something, argue it on the basis of facts and not clichés. How can one hope to discuss something like Golden Dawn, which is Fascist, when they are choose to speak from ignorance on the subject?

I suspect that you and Bannasidhe may be more in agreeement overall than disagreement.

I don't think so. I get the impression that unless you follow a very two-dimensional "four legs good, two legs bad" approach to the subject you must be a Fascist.

Now if you are saying that people like democracy but love order even more , then that is something I agree with . ( not the sentiment mind you- just the statement) - Putin's Russia for example and possibly Greece with this Golden Shower crowd:)

That's unfortunately, as I already said, what may well happen in Greece if it falls into chaos as a result of SYRIZA coming to power.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I do think that to use the period between 1933-1939 to provide the proof for 'widespread' support is disingenuous as it implies that had some of the fascist states not engaged in expansionism there would not be an issue with it as a system of government.

Which is of course nonsense. There was no such implication - it's all in your head!

I think the Mother's of the Disappeared in Argentina would strongly disagree with this suggestion.

More historical inaccuracy. A right-wing dictatorship does not equate to a Fascist one. Indeed, if you want to discuss Argentinian Fascism, you should probably look to Peronism.

I am pie

The Corinthian wrote: »

I actually thought I did in my first post.

My native country? Making a few presumptions there, aren't we?

And while on the subject of jumping to conclusions; given your above presumption, are you xenophobic or racist?

As to whether I would vote for a fascist party in Ireland, or elsewhere, I think you can probably ascertain that from my first post and what I wrote about extremist parties and ideologies that have not gone anywhere for the better part of a century.

Essentially that is all I said. My point is that if you're going to argue something, argue it on the basis of facts and not clichés. How can one hope to discuss something like Golden Dawn, which is Fascist, when they are choose to speak from ignorance on the subject?

I don't think so. I get the impression that unless you follow a very two-dimensional "four legs good, two legs bad" approach to the subject you must be a Fascist.

That's unfortunately, as I already said, what may well happen in Greece if it falls into chaos as a result of SYRIZA coming to power.

Which is of course nonsense. There was no such implication - it's all in your head!

More historical inaccuracy. A right-wing dictatorship does not equate to a Fascist one. Indeed, if you want to discuss Argentinian Fascism, you should probably look to Peronism.

1. No, you haven't made anything clear.

2. Bizarrely you have interpreted native as xenophobic. I have no interest in your nationality and have been careful not to assume you are Irish, Greek, Brazilian or from Mars.

Would you vote for a fascist party? Yes or no will suffice.

I am pie

I am pie wrote: »

1. No, you haven't made anything clear.

2. Bizarrely you have interpreted native as xenophobic. I have no interest in your nationality and have been careful not to assume you are Irish, Greek, Brazilian or from Mars.

Would you vote for a fascist party? Yes or no will suffice.

Apologies, i had intended to add that peronism is not 'Argentine Fascism' , it is populism certainly but fascism ? No.

The Corinthian

I am pie wrote: »

1. No, you haven't made anything clear.

What confused you?

2. Bizarrely you have interpreted native as xenophobic. I have no interest in your nationality and have been careful not to assume you are Irish, Greek, Brazilian or from Mars.

Your qualification of my "native country" implies that you may not belive me to be Irish, which combined with your obvious hostility, betrays xenophobia.

Ridiculous logic? Absolutely, just as the logic that paints someone as somehow crypto-fascist simply because they don't think in simplistic black and white terms on the subject, which was my point.

Would you vote for a fascist party? Yes or no will suffice.

Almost certainly not, but I don't know for certain is the answer because it depends on what you want to call Fascist.

Would I have voted for Hitler, probably no, but then again, if I was living in the Weimar republic I might have a different view.

Golden Dawn (if I were Greek)? Not a hope.

But someone like Peron? Maybe. It's not really black or white.

I am pie wrote: »

Apologies, i had intended to add that peronism is not 'Argentine Fascism' , it is populism certainly but fascism ? No.

Actually it was. Other than populist, it was authoritarian, nationalist and employed corporatism. Peron himself made no secret of his admiration of Mussolini's policies and availed of assistance from Fascist states (most notably Spain). And lest we forget, he wasn't shy of painting a cult of personality around himself either.

So, unless you want to invent a new definition for Fascism, Peronism ticks enough boxes there - certainly far more than the 1976 - 83 junta that was responsible for 'the Disappeared', which according to Bannasidhe was apparently Fascist.

I've heard the "Peron wasn't really Fascist" argument before. It's invariably given by only two groups; Peronists eager to avoid the Fascist label and far-left ideologues who are uncomfortable with the existence of a form of Fascism that does not follow all the nasty clichés.

Which one are you?

marienbad

The Corinthian wrote: »

What confused you?

Your qualification of my "native country" implies that you may not belive me to be Irish, which combined with your obvious hostility, betrays xenophobia.

Ridiculous logic? Absolutely, just as the logic that paints someone as somehow crypto-fascist simply because they don't think in simplistic black and white terms on the subject, which was my point.

Almost certainly not, but I don't know for certain is the answer because it depends on what you want to call Fascist.

Would I have voted for Hitler, probably no, but then again, if I was living in the Weimar republic I might have a different view.


Golden Dawn (if I were Greek)? Not a hope.

But someone like Peron? Maybe. It's not really black or white.

Actually it was. Other than populist, it was authoritarian, nationalist and employed corporatism. Peron himself made no secret of his admiration of Mussolini's policies and availed of assistance from Fascist states (most notably Spain). And lest we forget, he wasn't shy of painting a cult of personality around himself either.

So, unless you want to invent a new definition for Fascism, Peronism ticks enough boxes there - certainly far more than the 1976 - 83 junta that was responsible for 'the Disappeared', which according to Bannasidhe was apparently Fascist.

I've heard the "Peron wasn't really Fascist" argument before. It's invariably given by only two groups; Peronists eager to avoid the Fascist label and far-left ideologues who are uncomfortable with the existence of a form of Fascism that does not follow all the nasty clichés.

Which one are you?

I take back my observation the you and Bannasidhe may have more in agreement than disagreement

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

So you have never lived/worked abroad , not would not ! You make it sound like a policy statement ! Would I be correct then in deducing that you would like to apply that same rule to any foreigners in Ireland ?

Also can I have an answer to my other question - why blame the workers and not the employers ?

maybe to an extent, any person who is in this country and is not legally entitled to be should be deported without question, no bull**** court cases etc. just escorted to a port.

and in answer to your other question i blame both.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because some of what you have written could be interpreted as coming from someone quite young and naive.

I would have to say that as someone who has lived and worked abroad, can speak a number of other languages and has had quite a bit of experience with other cultures, your attitude does strike me as quite provincial.

If one is young, this is excusable, but beyond a certain age it's disconcerting as it appears to seek to promote a stagnant cultural model unable to interact with others and thus unable to evolve - and all of your arguments have been about maintaining an untouched cultural homogeneity which inevitably leads to this stagnation.

i am neither young nor naive, and i have nothing against you living or working abroad and i admire you for your ability to speak a number of other languages it is something i would like to have myself -the languages that is, but on this point all i said was i have no wish to live or work abroad.

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

maybe to an extent, any person who is in this country and is not legally entitled to be should be deported without question, no bull**** court cases etc. just escorted to a port.

and in answer to your other question i blame both.



i am neither young nor naive, and i have nothing against you living or working abroad and i admire you for your ability to speak a number of other languages it is something i would like to have myself -the languages that is, but on this point all i said was i have no wish to live or work abroad.

And how would you determine who was or was'nt legaly entitled on this journey to the port ?

Why would you blame the employees ? They are just trying to get by like the rest of us ?

How much do you attribute the problems here or in Greece to Immigrants ?

The Corinthian

fianna saor wrote: »

i am neither young nor naive, and i have nothing against you living or working abroad and i admire you for your ability to speak a number of other languages it is something i would like to have myself -the languages that is, but on this point all i said was i have no wish to live or work abroad.

Thus, extending your personal preference to domestic policy, you have no issue with cultural stagnation as a result of insularism?

fianna saor

marienbad wrote: »

And how would you determine who was or was'nt legaly entitled on this journey to the port ?

Why would you blame the employees ? They are just trying to get by like the rest of us ?

How much do you attribute the problems here or in Greece to Immigrants ?

well to determine legality, i think they should have some sort of identity card along the same lines i suppose as the american greencard. all irish citizens would carry these.

ive said i blame the employers and the employees, the employees part because they are reducing the standard rate of a particular job by accepting it, therefore snatching the job from under the nose of an irish worker. i know there'll be a reply from some do gooder who claims nationalist always say this but it does happen.

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants. - not saying its all their fault btw we can fvck things up sometimes pretty well on our own too

marienbad

fianna saor wrote: »

well to determine legality, i think they should have some sort of identity card along the same lines i suppose as the american greencard. all irish citizens would carry these.

ive said i blame the employers and the employees, the employees part because they are reducing the standard rate of a particular job by accepting it, therefore snatching the job from under the nose of an irish worker. i know there'll be a reply from some do gooder who claims nationalist always say this but it does happen.

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants. - not saying its all their fault btw we can fvck things up sometimes pretty well on our own too

Well the Irish worker could prevent that job being ''snached'' from him by by accepting the market rate , could he/she not ?

You are aware by the way that even in the height of the boom there was unemployment and these immigrants were required for the jobs that we saw as beneath us , and for lots of those jobs we still do .

What are those ''fair proportion of problems'' caused by immigrants ?

The Corinthian

fianna saor wrote: »

well to determine legality, i think they should have some sort of identity card along the same lines i suppose as the american greencard. all irish citizens would carry these.

That sounds like a very foreign idea...

ive said i blame the employers and the employees, the employees part because they are reducing the standard rate of a particular job by accepting it, therefore snatching the job from under the nose of an irish worker. i know there'll be a reply from some do gooder who claims nationalist always say this but it does happen.

You are correct to a great extent, however you ignore the benefits of an increased population also.

With greater population, you get greater demand; accommodation, food, entertainment, financial services, basic services and so on. Greater demand translates to higher GDP and overall employment, not to mention related tax revenues.

No one would deny that the outflow of foreign workers since the spectacular collapse of the Celtic Tiger has resulted in very visible demand shortfalls in the rental market, for example.

Thus you would have to demonstrate that immigration represents a net loss to the Irish economy, for it to actually be a problem. Otherwise you're simply presenting what I suspect is a flawed anecdote, based upon the observations of someone who happened to be in an industry that was harder hit than most by foreign worker competition.

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants. - not saying its all their fault btw we can fvck things up sometimes pretty well on our own too

My understanding is that Ireland's economic woes are as a result of a combination of both the ongoing financial crisis, that began in 2008, and the collapse of the housing bubble.

The former is clearly not the fault of immigrants and the latter was fuelled overwhelmingly by Irish citizens, unless you have information that contradicts this.

So overall, I understand where you're coming from and I would agree that the system has likely been too lenient where it comes to some of the abuses in the asylum system. However, you've not really made a convincing case against immigration overall, based upon the facts.

Nodin

fianna saor wrote: »

............

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants. - not saying its all their fault btw we can fvck things up sometimes pretty well on our own too

Did immigrants run the banks, Government, builders and industry regulators?