The Stability Treaty - Will Mayo Vote Yes?

finisklin

Any views? Has this hit home to Mayo people that it is less than three weeks away? What is it all about? More or less austerity? Plus ca change?

Mickeroo

I'll be honest, I haven't got a clue which way to vote. At the moment I'm leaning towards NO, but thats down to a distrust of the current government. I need to read up on the treaty before the referendum, but I'm open to arguments for and against.

themadchef

People have loads of different reasons for voting Yes or No...

One beauty of an answer i got lately...

"Of course im voting Yes, sure isint that where all the grants come from"

So... i dunno lads.

I think it's going to be a landslide "Yes" because the people are scared of what a" No" vote could mean.

Im going to vote No... I dont believe the Hail Mary out of their mouths.

qrrgprgua

Who cares.. Vote YES and we get taxed more, pay more charges... Not NO and we get taxed more, pay more charges...

We don't have many cards to play... Reality is leaving aside the banking part.. we are still borrowing heavily to pay for day to day expenditure..

Don't see many options available.. Even if we leave the Euro it would mean a devalued Irish Currency which is austerity under another name..

I suppose if we are in the EURO club we might as well play the euro rules and vote yes.

Mickeroo

Sure if the No vote wins they'll probably just keep re-holding the poll until we vote yes anyway

oscarBravo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Sure if the No vote wins they'll probably just keep re-holding the poll until we vote yes anyway

This is actually the one treaty where that's not likely to be the case. In the case of EU treaties (remember, this isn't one) the treaty can't be ratified without our agreement; we have an effective veto, hence the pressure to vote again and ratify. In this case, if we don't ratify, the treaty goes ahead without us.

It's becoming increasingly clear that the majority of the electorate have no clue about the implications of voting either way on this treaty. That's nothing unusual: most people have no clue about the implications of international treaties. The Crotty judgement has a lot to answer for.

Oldtree

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'll be honest, I haven't got a clue which way to vote. At the moment I'm leaning towards NO, but thats down to a distrust of the current government. I need to read up on the treaty before the referendum, but I'm open to arguments for and against.

same here but I have read up a bit and I'm still none the wiser, seems to be f'ed if we do and f'ed if we dont. So I guess it depends on which side can frighten me the most wins....

qrrgprgua

Mickeroo wrote: »

Sure if the No vote wins they'll probably just keep re-holding the poll until we vote yes anyway

Nah.. Its not an EU treaty its an Euro Zone treaty.. its a once off.

eaglej13

no all the way.

oscarBravo

eaglej13 wrote: »

no all the way.

Compellingly argued.

qrrgprgua

eaglej13 wrote: »

no all the way.

The ultra leftys of Ireland (AKA SINN FEIN) are a great party for saying no, and that's fine if they have an alternative.. they don't. There are only 2 options stay in euro and live a balance budget or leave it.

The laws are to prevent a Fianna Fail style tactics of reducing taxes to win elections.

finisklin

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The laws are to prevent a Fianna Fail style tactics of reducing taxes to win elections.

You forgot the gilded civil and public services as well.

gerryo777

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The ultra leftys of Ireland (AKA SINN FEIN) are a great party for saying no, and that's fine if they have an alternative.. they don't. There are only 2 options stay in euro and live a balance budget or leave it.

The laws are to prevent a Fianna Fail style tactics of reducing taxes to win elections.

Sure there's no alternatives in Ireland. Governments are either FF led or FG led and to be honest there's no difference between the two.

Regarding the treaty I think I'll vote no.

Borrowing money just to pay off private bank debts AND to sustain a seriously bloated and overpaid CS/PS is wrong.

qrrgprgua

gerryo777 wrote: »

Sure there's no alternatives in Ireland. Governments are either FF led or FG led and to be honest there's no difference between the two.

Regarding the treaty I think I'll vote no.

Borrowing money just to pay off private bank debts AND to sustain a seriously bloated and overpaid CS/PS is wrong.

Leaving the banking aside... if tomorrow we vote no and the money stops coming do you think things will be suddenly better? Banking aside we are borrowing over 10 billion to run public services.. Any suggestions, should we cut teachers/Doctors pay by x %, reduce dole? Half Children's allowance.

Or better still leave the Euro.. then we can devalue our new currency and problem solved.. do you think that will end austerity?

If we Stay in the Euro then we support it with a balanced budget and an economy taxed accordingly to provide for its services... Otherwise we leave it.

I don't like where we are going but we don't have many options, Yes would give us more support in Europe,, esp writing off our banking debt.

Sinn Fein is just shying away from the hard answers because it knows it has no real solutions. It would tax the rich over 70% and drive them out of Ireland.. Come 5 years with them in government we would be like Albania.

Jim2007

gerryo777 wrote: »

Regarding the treaty I think I'll vote no.

Borrowing money just to pay off private bank debts AND to sustain a seriously bloated and overpaid CS/PS is wrong.

The reason that we got here at all was because the Irish government and many others failed to act in a fiscally responsible manner and now that we've got a proposal to try and bring an end to such practices in future, you're going to vote against it so they can continue on their merry little way.....

gerryo777

Jim2007 wrote: »

The reason that we got here at all was because the Irish government and many others failed to act in a fiscally responsible manner and now that we've got a proposal to try and bring an end to such practices in future, you're going to vote against it so they can continue on their merry little way.....

If being 'fiscally responsible' means that at the end of 2013 we will need a second 'bailout' then something's not right.
We don't need this enshrined in our constitution, we just need a strong government that won't resort to buying election results like FF did.
Taking on even more debt to pay the current debt won't work.

gerryo777

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Leaving the banking aside... if tomorrow we vote no and the money stops coming do you think things will be suddenly better? Banking aside we are borrowing over 10 billion to run public services.. Any suggestions, should we cut teachers/Doctors pay by x %, reduce dole? Half Children's allowance.

Or better still leave the Euro.. then we can devalue our new currency and problem solved.. do you think that will end austerity?

If we Stay in the Euro then we support it with a balanced budget and an economy taxed accordingly to provide for its services... Otherwise we leave it.

I don't like where we are going but we don't have many options, Yes would give us more support in Europe,, esp writing off our banking debt.

Sinn Fein is just shying away from the hard answers because it knows it has no real solutions. It would tax the rich over 70% and drive them out of Ireland.. Come 5 years with them in government we would be like Albania.

I think we have rushed into this referendum and it should be postponed until we see how things pan out in the next 6-12 months or so.

Jim2007

gerryo777 wrote: »

If being 'fiscally responsible' means that at the end of 2013 we will need a second 'bailout' then something's not right.

Sorry but this makes no sense - you want fiscal responsibility so you vote against the proposal!!!

This is about how the whole of the Euro zone is managed and showing that the Euro is a serious currency go forward. Regardless of the vote, we will still have to deal with the excesses of the past and that may mean that we have to bail out Spain or Italy in the coming months....

As for a bailout in Ireland, so far all I've heard is opinions, not facts! When it comes to facts, right now the Irish banks are actually among the best financed in Europe - The T1 ratio for two of our main banks already exceed the Basel III requirements and exceed the new EU requirements by a factor of 4, while the other exceeds it by a factor of 2....

gerryo777 wrote: »

We don't need this enshrined in our constitution, we just need a strong government that won't resort to buying election results like FF did.

Well if we do have a strong government then this measure should not be a problem for them, but on the other hand in situations where there is a weak government, then it should act as a break!

The reality is that politicians will all ways pander to the public at election times, given the opportunity... and this has happened all a cross Europe... and again this is not just about Ireland, when you vote on this you are also ensuring that governments in other countries do not blow it for the rest of us either!

Furthermore, this is not an EU treaty and does not need our agreement for it to go ahead, all you are voting on is to decide if Ireland will be part of it or not. There will be no need for a second vote, if Ireland does not agree, we will simply be left out...

gerryo777 wrote: »

Taking on even more debt to pay the current debt won't work.

Refinancing government debt is a normal part of public administration, it is the level of that debt which is in question and what the new measures seek to bring under control.

You should realize that refinancing government debt is a standard exercise in all countries, as government bonds reach maturity they are replaced by new bonds... one could even argue that it is necessary for the proper functioning of the markets! For example, during the Clinton years when the US ran a surplus, they were actually forced issue bonds because financial institutions could not find a low risk investment option and pension funds were being forced to invest in very high risk alternatives.

I do not see how anyone can say they want fiscal responsibility and then go out and vote 'No', because at the end of the day that will be seen across the Euro zone as a green light to socialist governments, such as the new French government for instance, to start running higher deficits etc.... it is not just about Ireland!

qrrgprgua

gerryo777 wrote: »

I think we have rushed into this referendum and it should be postponed until we see how things pan out in the next 6-12 months or so.

What is to rush... The referendum is about being responsible for our finances. Its not hard to see the logic we have x income and y expenditure and we put laws in place that we have a stable income to meet our expenditure and that we don't over borrow...Its what we should have done anyway!!!!

The referendum will make this law meaning that future parties can't promise to double children's allowance and scrap property tax to win an election which has been done on the past.

Nobody likes taxes... But if we had a stable tax based during the tiger years we would not need to make cuts today. Instead we built an economy on revenues from a property bubble.. it burst and now we don't want to play by the rules to stabilise the currency we trade in.


Its simply stay in the club and play by the rules or leave it.. Its what Greece is doing.. Lefts see once they leave the club if austerity will be any better.. it won't the poor will be even poorer and it will take them 5-10 years before they come out of it.. If they brought back the dracma tomorrow do you think they would trade in it.. not the ordinary people would want euro or dollar and currency that is stable and not one that could devalue any day...

Many people hold up Argentina as an example.... well majority of people their would hold dollars because of they stability.. and the poor had it the worst.

So bottom line this treaty is about staying in the euro or not,, we won't be kicked out if we vote not, the government won't reverse cuts if we vote not, but if we vote yes at least is sends a message... We are NOT Greece.
Its call Stability treaty for a reason.. We are committed to stability.

I don't like the treaty, I don't think we should have entered the euro area to start with. But we did and now we either support it or not.

cycling is fun

the following is why i think people need to vote NO


http://beforeitsnews.com/story/2141/787/Iceland_s_Amazing_Peaceful_Revolution_Still_Not_in_the_News.html


http://vimeo.com/41954094

Please Read amd watch both items, i personally have never borrowed in my life have never ever lived outside my means, if i made a mistake I paid for it by voting anythink other than No i would be accepting to pay someone else debt willing to accept responsibility for there mistakes

qrrgprgua

cycling is fun wrote: »

the following is why i think people need to vote NO


http://beforeitsnews.com/story/2141/787/Iceland_s_Amazing_Peaceful_Revolution_Still_Not_in_the_News.html


http://vimeo.com/41954094

Please Read amd watch both items, i personally have never borrowed in my life have never ever lived outside my means, if i made a mistake I paid for it by voting anythink other than No i would be accepting to pay someone else debt willing to accept responsibility for there mistakes

Iceland ... WAS NEVER IN THE EURO!!. And anyone who is suggesting that what they did will solve our problems is crazy. Are you saying that when their currency crashed there was not austerity? Because they haven't a clue. I dealt with Icelandic customers and for a for months it was impossible to trade because their banking system collapsed,, when it came back they could not afford to pay for imports. Even today Iceland is still in deep austerity ... There are not easy solutions.

Jim2007

cycling is fun wrote: »

i personally have never borrowed in my life have never ever lived outside my means, if i made a mistake I paid for it by voting anythink other than No i would be accepting to pay someone else debt willing to accept responsibility for there mistakes

As I have already said, a no vote can mean nothing other than that you do not support fiscal responsibility. That is how it will be seen in the end, no matter how you try and paint it - You had your opportunity to put the breaks on the likes of the new Hollande government and you choose not to.

As for Iceland, the economic situation is so different to the rest of Europe that no lesson can be learned from it! They are not in the Euro nor even the EU, they did not have a property boom, their economy is highly dependent on a single industry and their banks failed mainly as a result of external activities....

biko

It's funny how they named it "stability" treaty. Makes you think that a no will cause upheaval and societal collapse.

Jim2007

biko wrote: »

It's funny how they named it "stability" treaty. Makes you think that a no will cause upheaval and societal collapse.

I don't see why it should, unless you have no idea of what you are voting on...

qrrgprgua

biko wrote: »

It's funny how they named it "stability" treaty. Makes you think that a no will cause upheaval and societal collapse.

Because the alternative... each State in the Eurozone doing what they like and running up credit.. Is not stable.


Personally I think the treaty won't make a blind bit of difference if its passed or not passed. But the fact that we say NO would send a message that we don't intend to play by europes rules and we would just be added to the greek basket. If we want to exit with Greece fine..

Sinn Fein call it the Austerity treaty... Well with our without it there will be austerity. Anyone who things Greece would have austerity when the leave the euro is crazy.

Jim2007

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Sinn Fein call it the Austerity treaty...

People should remember that Sinn Fein today, is not the Sinn Fein of their grandfathers, it is very much a socialist party and as such the last think it wants to see is restrictions on it's ability to borrow and spend!!!

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Anyone who things Greece would have austerity when the leave the euro is crazy.

The problem in Greece is that there needs to be mass restructuring of their economy as well as austerity and that is going to be much harder to do. In the end I would not be at all surprised if it becomes some kind of protectorate of the EU or IMF or the UN....

Defiler Of The Coffin

I will be voting 'yes' to this treaty. I find it disheartening to see in this thread all the people who are voting 'no' simply because they "don't trust the government" or "don't really know what it means". How about studying the provisions and deciding on its merits? We're not handing over any more power to Europe than what we already handed over in Maastricht anyway.

Personally I agree with the measures for stricter budget control, including the need to balance the budget and keep the deficit below a certain amount. This is only sensible but at the same time the Treaty allows for this to be broken in times of dire economic circumstances. It also allows for stimulus if need be.

I find it ironic that some members on the left are calling this an 'austerity treaty' even though if it isn't ratified it will mean more austerity for Ireland given that we won't be able to access bailout funds from the ESM. Sinn Fein's response to this is that we will get the money from 'somewhere'. Given that there is a good chance Ireland will need more bailout funds next year I don't think this is something we should mess around with.

Ireland's position in the Eurozone will become weaker if we do not vote yes.

As for the OP's question as to how Mayo people will vote... I think we had the highest vote against the Lisbon Treaty first time round did we not?

qrrgprgua

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I find it ironic that some members on the left are calling this an 'austerity treaty' even though if it isn't ratified it will mean more austerity for Ireland given that we won't be able to access bailout funds from the ESM. Sinn Fein's response to this is that we will get the money from 'somewhere'. Given that there is a good chance Ireland will need more bailout funds next year I don't think this is something we should mess around with.

Exactly!!! Sinn Fein have the popular vote.. but no answers.. "He who pays the piper calls the tune.." Its all fine if Sinn Fein can show a credible path out of this mess, but they can't. In their plans they have spent the pension reserve fund 10 times over.

End of the day... Banking aside.. We can't sustain our spending. If we want money we need to borrow... The lenders wants reforms and assurances. AKA tighten your belts. We don't have many options


If Sinn fein were in power once they spend the pension reserve fund you can be sure they would run hand out. Businesses don't like ultra left countries because their policies don't give stability.

Defiler Of The Coffin

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Exactly!!! Sinn Fein have the popular vote.. but no answers.. "He who pays the piper calls the tune.." Its all fine if Sinn Fein can show a credible path out of this mess, but they can't. In their plans they have spent the pension reserve fund 10 times over.

End of the day... Banking aside.. We can't sustain our spending. If we want money we need to borrow... The lenders wants reforms and assurances. AKA tighten your belts. We don't have many options


If Sinn fein were in power once they spend the pension reserve fund you can be sure they would run hand out. Businesses don't like ultra left countries because their policies don't give stability.

It's hard not to see Sinn Fein as the party that's against everything and for nothing. I remember their laughable slogan for the Lisbon Treaty - "Lets be at the heart of Europe - Vote No!".

oscarBravo

gerryo777 wrote: »

We don't need this enshrined in our constitution...

We're not enshrining it in our constitution. The amendment to the constitution is nothing other than us giving the Oireachtas permission to ratify this specific treaty; nothing else in the constitution will change.

(As an aside, the idea of filling the constitution with amendments permitting the ratification of individual treaties should be an indication to anyone who puts more than five seconds' thought into it that our method of ratifying these treaties is deeply, horribly broken.)

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

It's hard not to see Sinn Fein as the party that's against everything and for nothing. I remember their laughable slogan for the Lisbon Treaty - "Lets be at the heart of Europe - Vote No!".

We're talking about the Sinn Féin who have opposed every EU treaty since 1972. Particularly laughable is the fact that their grounds for opposing each treaty since the initial accession treaty has been that the EU is working just fine as it is - in other words, the EU that has resulted from the last treaty that they opposed is the ideal EU, and whatever the current treaty is will break it horribly. It would be funny if people didn't keep falling for it.

qrrgprgua

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're talking about the Sinn Féin who have opposed every EU treaty since 1972. Particularly laughable is the fact that their grounds for opposing each treaty since the initial accession treaty has been that the EU is working just fine as it is - in other words, the EU that has resulted from the last treaty that they opposed is the ideal EU, and whatever the current treaty is will break it horribly. It would be funny if people didn't keep falling for it.

Its easy for Sinn Fein to sit on the bench and oppose everything. Up north they do the same, apart from the fact their spending in subsidised by London.

Nobody wants more taxes, Nobody wanted their pay cut, but nobody wants a leftist socialist government that would ultimately raise taxes on rich and corporations they would destabilise one of the only sectors that is helping Ireland. Because thats what SF would do in power to protect their voter base, they would raise taxes, certainly Corporation tax to 15% and they would tax the rich higher, even when today 20% of population pay 80% of taxes...

I think once SF has a spell in Government, should it happen, we will see their true colours, at the moment they stand on the line opposing everything and providing no solutions.