The Great Irish Famine

golden lane

i am feeling saintly here.....us irish were so benificial to the world...it is embarrassing....

i will ignore the fact my grandad and great grandad were in indial.........maybe they were only there on holiday........a resort called the bengal fusiliers....great fun...

Nodin

golden lane wrote: »

i am feeling saintly here.....us irish were so benificial to the world...it is embarrassing....

i will ignore the fact my grandad and great grandad were in indial.........maybe they were only there on holiday........a resort called the bengal fusiliers....great fun...

You'll find that untold numbers of indians facilitated the running of their country under british rule. Its how that type of Empire worked - the ruled aid in their own subjugation and subjugate others in return for status within the structure, a wage, or perhaps just for sustenance.

Aidric

golden lane wrote: »

ok...we only got a spoonful each of caviar..........

our dinner for four days every week, was usually bread and a mug of oxo..........

friday was chips.....saturday was a fry up.....sunday usually was.....

cabbage potatoes and trotters/ or backbone/ or knuckles/ or pigs tails/...

a special treat was a cows heart........and a very special treat was......custard and jelly (often got from the back of birds factory in golden lane )..yum yum..

Bill Cullen?

Nodin

Aidric wrote: »

Bill Cullen?

...far too up-beat.

Fratton Fred

cbyrd wrote: »

Nope.. just merely pointing out that this wasn't Ireland's only Famine.. that the differences were there. . In this instance famine was caused by the weather and circumstance, in 1845 it was caused by the British Government systematically stripping the country of it's food and livestock. . .

Aah, the good old "dont let the truth get in the way of a good story" routine.

Krusader

If the famine never happen they reckon the population of Ireland would be around 20-25 million today

golden lane

Aidric wrote: »

Bill Cullen?

not in our house........was he from golden lane..??????

Wild Bill

lividduck wrote: »

Strange how you demand "Democracy" in one part of the world in another thread , yet show your abject loathing for the democratic will of the people expressed in a free and fair ballot as "criminal self-interest and/or craven cowardice" in this one.

That's what it is.

But, being a democrat, I allow folk to be cowardly and self-interested.

You appear to have difficulty distinguishing between the concept of commenting on a vote and democracy.

The right to comment is an integral part of democracy - check it out :rolleyes:

(And if you want to start citing what I say on "other threads" - two can do that; but I'd imagine it's against some obscure house rule. I will only point out that you are even less coherent on the other thread ).

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

If the expression "ethnic cleansing" had existed in the 1840's then that perhaps would have been a better description of the tragedy history (mistakenly in my opinion) refers to as a famine. One crop failed, which happened to be the one crop the masters left for the peasants. Everything else flourished, but if you were one of the many and not one of the few then that was your tough luck.

A real famine, as in the Horn of Africa for instance, is when everything fails due to drought, usually, and often accompanied by war. No such thing ever happened in Ireland. There was an abundance of food, it just got stolen.

cbyrd wrote: »

It happened in Ireland in 1739-41, the worst winter in ages, actually termed a mini ice age. Europe got it too but because the ports froze nothing could get into the country. Coal food or aid,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but when I said it didn't happen in Ireland what I meant was it didn't happen in the 1840's as that's the subject of debate.

Doc Ruby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the good old "dont let the truth get in the way of a good story" routine.

Mm. The next time yourselves or for example the Germans start getting aspirations towards empire, my bet is the international community will oversee a breeding program of your females with African males, to dispel any future uber-nationalism.

I reckon the riots from the men will only be matched by the celebrations from the women.

Gummy Panda

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the good old "dont let the truth get in the way of a good story" routine.

Mm. The next time yourselves or for example the Germans start getting aspirations towards empire, my bet is the international community will oversee a breeding program of your females with African males, to dispel any future uber-nationalism.

I reckon the riots from the men will only be matched by the celebrations from the women.

Wait... Wat?

Doc Ruby

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Wait... Wat?

It will be like a UN-sponsored upgrade.

saa

After I moved into my flat I discovered that they were built on what was a mass grave from the famine times, I will track down Mr. Durkan homes and give him a piece of my mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_W6FLaMvA

gbee

golden lane wrote: »

..a resort called the bengal fusiliers....great fun...

The Irish have a great history with the greater British forces, right up to the present day, something to be proud of TBH. We tend to have a great and faithful work ethic, though, that could be construed as a fault and taken advantage of by religion, empire or self governance.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the good old "dont let the truth get in the way of a good story" routine.

The famine was a story?

Fratton Fred

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Mm. The next time yourselves or for example the Germans start getting aspirations towards empire, my bet is the international community will oversee a breeding program of your females with African males, to dispel any future uber-nationalism.

I reckon the riots from the men will only be matched by the celebrations from the women.

Hi Doc, you took your time.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

The famine was a story?

Come on Nodin, you're better than that.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Come on Nodin, you're better than that.

What exactly are you on about, then?

Doc Ruby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hi Doc, you took your time.

Busy pleasuring Anglo Saxon women Fred, its a curse I tell you. I'll be glad for the relief forces from the dark continent.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

What exactly are you on about, then?

It was in response to the claim that the British Government was systematically stripping the country during the famine. It wasn't, it never got involved enough. The merchants were the ones exporting food, but we mustn't blame them because some of them may have been Irish.

Fratton Fred

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Busy pleasuring Anglo Saxon women Fred, its a curse I tell you. I'll be glad for the relief forces from the dark continent.

You've been in Germany?

golden lane

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You've been in Germany?

yes, i liked their sausages......but not the mangol wurzels..

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was in response to the claim that the British Government was systematically stripping the country during the famine. It wasn't, it never got involved enough. The merchants were the ones exporting food, but we mustn't blame them because some of them may have been Irish.

...the fact of the matter is that the death toll and effects of the famine can be, for the most part, laid at the feet of a colonial British administration that ranged in view from indifferent to hostile . There being other famines doesn't change that, it not being a 'genocide' doesn't change that. And you hanging round here firing ill-informed "buts" in won't change it either.

Doc Ruby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You've been in Germany?

Certainly in plenty of English women, but to be honest Fred, I've lost my zeal. There's just no challenge in it any more. Give them the riff of a weshtern accent and velvet drapes part. Perhaps I should set my sights a bit higher.

golden lane

Nodin wrote: »

...the fact of the matter is that the death toll and effects of the famine can be, for the most part, laid at the feet of a colonial British administration that ranged in view from indifferent to hostile . There being other famines doesn't change that, it not being a 'genocide' doesn't change that. And you hanging round here firing ill-informed "buts" in won't change it either.

so, your saying, no irish people had a hand in the death toll........and they did all they could to prevent it..........

or are the irish included in the word, british.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

...the fact of the matter is that the death toll and effects of the famine can be, for the most part, laid at the feet of a colonial British administration that ranged in view from indifferent to hostile . There being other famines doesn't change that, it not being a 'genocide' doesn't change that. And you hanging round here firing ill-informed "buts" in won't change it either.

From where I'm sat, the people that are (sadly) ill-informed are the ones that are a product of the Irish education system.

There is a very rich and interesting history in this country and yet it gets turned into Brits bad, Irish good whilst ignoring all the shades of grey in-between.

Nodin

golden lane wrote: »

so, your saying, no irish people had a hand in the death toll........and they did all they could to prevent it..........

or are the irish included in the word, british.

Read it again. It's all covered.

Fratton Fred

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Certainly in plenty of English women, but to be honest Fred, I've lost my zeal. There's just no challenge in it any more. Give them the riff of a weshtern accent and velvet drapes part. Perhaps I should set my sights a bit higher.

Perhaps you should be a bit more classy.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

From where I'm sat, the people that are (sadly) ill-informed are the ones that are a product of the Irish education system.

,...............

Given what I've seen on a number of threads, I'm safe in saying you aren't qualified to comment.

Doc Ruby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Perhaps you should be a bit more classy.

I can't help it, Doc takes it where he finds it. Don't get me wrong, I love English women. What man wouldn't?

golden lane

Nodin wrote: »

Read it again. It's all covered.

still not sure who you are blaming for all of it....

i have no problem that british government indifference, to the point of being criminal did very little to avoid deaths......

and no problem with individual british landlords taking advantage of the situation to further their ambitions.....

but as an irishman i would like to know what irish people who could have helped to alleviate the situation did.....or did not do....and if they made profits from their fellow countrymens misfortune.......

Doc Ruby

golden lane wrote: »

but as an irishman i would like to know what irish people who could have helped to alleviate the situation did.....or did not do....and if they made profits from their fellow countrymens misfortune.......

What a pile of ****.

golden lane

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What a pile of ****.

so there was none...??????

Doc Ruby

golden lane wrote: »

so there was none...??????

Listen to me now son, and listen carefully. When a sovereign turns away aid because it would embarrass her own "donation", the problem isn't with the locals. The slobbering revisionism by the usual suspects in this thread is the real embarrassment.

conor.hogan.2

Fratton Fred wrote: »

From where I'm sat, the people that are (sadly) ill-informed are the ones that are a product of the Irish education system.

There is a very rich and interesting history in this country and yet it gets turned into Brits bad, Irish good whilst ignoring all the shades of grey in-between.

I think that would be because this is overwhelmingly true. If you are not into history this is the truth plain and simple as there is a lot of grey but that it is just grey whereas the black and white is they were pretty bad.

Ask the rest of the world where the "locals" are left, most of them have an ill view of the British (but like to stay within the commonwealth to gain something back from all they lost)

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Listen to me now son, and listen carefully. When a sovereign turns away aid because it would embarrass her own "donation", the problem isn't with the locals. The slobbering revisionism by the usual suspects in this thread is the real embarrassment.

Revisionism is bad, but what is happening here is denial more than revisionism.

Doc Ruby

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Revisionism is bad, but what is happening here is denial more than revisionism.

Same shite, different bucket.

conor.hogan.2

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Same shite, different bucket.

They are persistent.

golden lane

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Listen to me now son, and listen carefully. When a sovereign turns away aid because it would embarrass her own "donation", the problem isn't with the locals. The slobbering revisionism by the usual suspects in this thread is the real embarrassment.

do you always speak like that.......or are you just on a bad day.....

i know all about the british indifference....and they should have done all in their power to help.....and they are as guilty as hell.

but did any irishmen make a profit out of the misfortune of their fellow countrymen.....

Doc Ruby

golden lane wrote: »

but did any irishmen make a profit out of the misfortune of their fellow countrymen.....

If they did they sure as hell didn't see themselves as Irishmen, a bit like the European Taliban the English have fostered in the north. Or are you one of these people that will excuse the Nazis because they had collaborators?

Oh but that was different.

gbee

Doc Ruby wrote: »

The slobbering revisionism by the usual suspects in this thread is the real embarrassment.

Not really, IMO, we need to accept the past, understand why it happened, and understand why we are now ruled by Europe, despite none of us being consulted about it.

I'm already embarrassed about Europe and it's future crimes, just to put that on the record, and there were opinions like mine, contemporary to the times, what could they do.

In many ways, Ireland is like Africa, a jewel, but the natives make a pig's ear out of it. The economic famine today is probably going to be written into history as more devastating than those who died of starvation and emigrated as those are committing suicide today and emigrating, except today it's Australia and they are saying, only the BEST Irish need apply, the rest go home, don't come here.

History happened, it's happening now, too.

Corruptedmorals

In those situations, people turn primal and resort to basic instinct. You may be sure people benefited from others misfortune and were glad to be able to improve their own chances of survival as a result. And there were farmers who were prepared to shoot hungry peasants trying to steal their crops in the middle of the night. But a lot of other people went out of their way to help in whatever way they could, and plenty of landlords waived rent. Of course people benefited in some way, it's human nature particularly in a crisis to reap all benefits that come your way when your survival is on the line.

Doc Ruby

gbee wrote: »

In many ways, Ireland is like Africa, a jewel, but the natives make a pig's ear out of it.

More of a pig's ear than the useless pricks that managed to reduce the population so much it still hasn't recovered 150 years later?

golden lane

Doc Ruby wrote: »

If they did they sure as hell didn't see themselves as Irishmen, a bit like the European Taliban the English have fostered in the north. Or are you one of these people that will excuse the Nazis because they had collaborators?

Oh but that was different.

different..???......to what..


what would the nazis do with me excusing them.....where are they.....

i never see any taliban up north........

but thank you, there were irishmen that made profits......but you think they would see themselves as something else........rich maybe..??????

Doc Ruby

golden lane wrote: »

i never see any taliban up north........

Really? because the last time I was talking to a northern unionist they seemed quite proud of the title... even told me that "at least the Taliban haven't been beaten yet". Oh lads, you're going to have some fun when the Republic takes over.

gbee

Doc Ruby wrote: »

still hasn't recovered 150 years later?

12,000,000 pre famine, families of 12 to 24 per cottage from one married couple, a culture of dependency, rather than independence, you and me know this was unsustainable.

There was an attitude of relief and aluftness, but also a genuine underestimation of seriousness of the ten year event, a series of crop failures just bored the greater ruling class and government.

K-9

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Woah. Two totally different things altogether. Firstly, Ireland was in no position to officially take part in WW2 (thousands did however fight in British uniforms.)
Secondly, the Nazi's atrocities against the Jewish people didnt even become public knowledge until well into the war so to say that Ireland stood by as it happened is wrong.
So when you take out knowledge of the holocaust what you have is Ireland, a small country, remaining neutral as Europe's oldest and Europe's newest colonial empires duked it out.
After the Irish went to bat for the brits in WW1 and got the square root of fuck all in return I think that was a fairly legitimate position to take.

The two shouldnt even be mentioned in the same thread, totally unconnected

Dev did the diplomatically correct thing, even James Dillon the leader of FG gave that much, and he opposed neutrality never mind DeV giving condolences. DeV was up against a bully and I can stand back and admire Churchill.

Dev's finest moment.

DeV stood up for small nations not being bullied, something he seen through with Frank Aitken standing up for small nations in the 50's in the UN. There are many things to criticise DeV for, I don't think that was one as he consistently defended smaller nations.

Doc Ruby

gbee wrote: »

12,000,000 pre famine, families of 12 to 24 per cottage from one married couple, a culture of dependency, rather than independence, you and me know this was unsustainable.

Yes this is why Ireland was known as the breadbasket of the empire during that time, and massive exports of food were continued while people starved in the streets. Very dependent.

gbee wrote: »

There was an attitude of relief and aluftness, but also a genuine underestimation of seriousness of the ten year event, a series of crop failures just bored the greater ruling class and government.

Aloofness. If you must defend the swine at least learn the language.

Black African males, mark my words. Nothing puts the fear into an englishman like seeing someone approaching with their lad slung over their shoulder, the main reason for the invasions of Ireland.

gbee

Doc Ruby wrote: »

reason for the invasions of Ireland.

On a point of fact, Ireland was not invaded by England.

And on learning the language of the conquerors, the invaders, killed off the native language of these islands long before English emerged.

Doc Ruby

gbee wrote: »

On a point of fact, Ireland was not invaded by England.

Awesome, you might tell Fratton Fred that.

gbee wrote: »

And on learning the language of the conquerors, the invaders, killed off the native language of these islands long before English emerged.

Bullshit. The pogroms against the Irish language are well recorded.

Nodin

gbee wrote: »

On a point of fact, Ireland was not invaded by England.

And on learning the language of the conquerors, the invaders, killed off the native language of these islands long before English emerged.

......rrrrrrreally. You'll be able to source those claims, I trust?