Politicians salaries.

Gurgle

Maura74 wrote: »

he could easily come down to 100k with his guarantee pensions

he isn't getting a pension yet

and I expect no housing commitments/expenses

Does he live in the Dail? With the wife and kids?

Maura74 wrote: »

I assume his family has all grown up and left home by now

3 Teenagers.

Check facts first

Don't get me wrong, €200k is a decent salary even for the leader of a country. €100k is a decent salary for middle management levels like TDs. But I don't see any reason to focus on these numbers for cost savings. They're not sky-high, they're quite reasonable for the positions.

Focus should be on expenses, and on the detail of what they're claiming for not just who claimed how much.

The ones who claim more are either working harder or stealing.

Those caught stealing from the country (Mr O'Snoddaigh, that means you for a start) should be fast-tracked to prosecution and expelled from the Dàil if convicted.

golden lane

SerialComplaint wrote: »

They've already done it - three times if I recall correctly.

not enough then........room for another cut.......lead by example..

kippy

Gurgle wrote: »

he isn't getting a pension yet Does he live in the Dail? With the wife and kids?
3 Teenagers.

Maybe opinions should be based on facts and knowledge instead of ill informed assumptions and expectations.

Don't get me wrong, €200k is a decent salary even for the leader of a country. €100k is a decent salary for middle management levels like TDs. But I don't see any reason to focus on these numbers for cost savings. They're not sky-high, they're quite reasonable for the positions.

Focus should be on expenses, and on the detail of what they're claiming for not just who claimed how much.

The ones who claim more are either working harder or stealing.

Those caught stealing from the country (Mr O'Snoddaigh, that means you for a start) should be fast-tracked to prosecution and expelled from the Dàil if convicted.

This, together with the numbers of elected representatives we have is the answer........

golden lane

politicians are leaders......experts should be employed to do experts jobs......

they should advise what can be done.....politicians should make decisions within that framework......

borrowing money for our children to payback....is not a good idea.....

ArmaniJeanss

golden lane wrote: »

not enough then........room for another cut.......lead by example..

In the immortal words of Malcolm Tucker to the minster who suggested a pay decrease, "they won't be happy until you're living in a fcuking cave"

Gurgle

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In the immortal words of Malcolm Tucker to the minster who suggested a pay decrease, "they won't be happy until you're living in a fcuking cave"

Followed by a million threads on here:
"Our politicians are a NATIONAL DISGRACE, they live in CAVES!!!"

fianna saor

some of them should be put in a cave, with a big boulder blocking the exit

SerialComplaint

golden lane wrote: »

not enough then........room for another cut.......lead by example..

So how much will be 'enough' - when will you stop looking for further cuts?

golden lane wrote: »

politicians are leaders......experts should be employed to do experts jobs......

they should advise what can be done.....politicians should make decisions within that framework......

Fully agree.

golden lane wrote: »

borrowing money for our children to payback....is not a good idea.....

Generally agree - but we're in a very difficult situation at present. If we were to try and balance the budget straight away, we would almost certainly push the country over the brink into a financial collapse. We would also decimate public services - so no schools, no hospitals, no Gardai etc etc. Is this really where you want to go?

Maura74 wrote: »

you are misinterpreting my post, I was referring to the Taoiseach/Govt Ministers, the Taoiseach salary at present is just over 200k therefore he could easily come down to 100k with his guarantee pensions and I expect no housing commitments/expenses, I assume his family has all grown up and left home by now or are they making their career in government as well?

What's his family got to do with it? Are we supposed to pay people more if they have lots of kids?

Maura74

Gurgle wrote: »

he isn't getting a pension yet Does he live in the Dail?
With the wife and kids?
3 Teenagers.

Check facts first

Focus should be on expenses, and on the detail of what they're claiming for not just who claimed how much.

The ones who claim more are either working harder or stealing.

I have looked at the expenses and cannot understand them as there are no invoices and also expenses are not broken down to say what the money was spent on save for foreign travel and hotels.

In the UK, MP’s has to put online their expenses with invoices however they are allowed to redact their private addresses.

Teenage start from the age of 13 to 19 and I am sure the Taoiseach children must be latter, but you may be able to prove different.

As for the Taoiseach residing the Dail there is no need for that when he has this at his disposal.
In 2008 it was reported that the former Steward's Lodge at Farmleigh adjoining the Phoenix Park would become the official residence of the Taoiseach.[10] The house, which forms part of the Farmleigh estate acquired by the State in 1999 for €29.2m, was renovated at a cost of nearly €600,000 in 2005 by the Office of Public Works. Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern did not use it as a residence, however his successor Brian Cowen used it "from time to time".

SerialComplaint wrote: »

What's his family got to do with it? Are we supposed to pay people more if they have lots of kids?

We do pay for people to have children and this is done by way of children allowances, you could be entitled to childcare benefits and tax relief, which can accumulate to as much as €8,000.The Taoiseach can easily afford to support his family if he was kicked out of office unlike the average person living with a mortgage and bring up a young family without employment due to being made redundant or losing employment due to illness or being disabled.
The Taoiseach would be well looked after with no worries as he would not have to jump through hoops to get a benefits or would not have to prove that he has got a disability to keep food on his table or a roof over his family head.

SMASH THE UNIONS

Link from www.thejournal.ie/

France’s cabinet ministers will now make around €120,000 a year before tax. This is significantly less than the 15 Irish ministers who make €169,275 – and even less than junior ministers, who are on a salary of €130,042.

When will we learn? How can posters here defend the astronomical salaries of our Junior Ministers, who earn more than France's cabinet ministers?

Pottler

Our Politicians swear by "Benchmarking", so lets do it-benchmark their salaries to those Politicians of a European nation of comparable size. I doubt if they would go for it, bit like turkeys voting for Christmas. Nearest comparison would probably be a "country" like Birmingham..

golden lane

there is a sickening feeling when you read what politicians get, plus expenses.....when that feeling goes, they will have reduced their salaries and expensese enough....

femur61

itzme wrote: »

The article says 29 out of 166, can you list the other 55 that make up the publicans and terrorists that make your assertion of "most" correct, otherwise you have to admit you were wrong.

Kenny was a primary school teacher until 1975, so that was what three years as a teacher? Politician since then 36-37 years, he's a professional politician not a teacher. I worked as a McDonalds worker for three years, so since I did that first does that make me a McDonalds worker no matter what I do now and for how long?
I'm not a massive fan of FF or FG but I'd have discuss what they're doing wrong and how it could be done better than try and take cheap lazy digs at them or by proxy teachers.

My main grip is that they have never worked in the real world. From the public sector to where another public sector job.

Maura74

Francois Hollande the new president of France has got his priorities right and I am sure he will do well, if the rich allow him to do his job,

For a start he is cutting ministers salaries by 30% that is starting at the top.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120517-new-french-cabinet-take-30-pay-salary-cut-ayrault-hollande-socialists-government-example


Next Francois Hollande is going to raise taxes by 75% for the rich and super rich. He is getting the order correct by not starting at the bottom and attacking the poorest and blaming them for the state the country is in, which it was bad government and and bankers that were doing the damage to the country for years and not the average hard working people.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/10/152445464/new-french-president-pledges-to-tax-rich-75-percent

Fr Tod Umptious

Maura74 wrote: »

Francois Hollande the new president of France has got his priorities right and I am sure he will do well, if the rich allow him to do his job,

For a start he is cutting ministers salaries by 30% that is starting at the top.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120517-new-french-cabinet-take-30-pay-salary-cut-ayrault-hollande-socialists-government-example


Next Francois Hollande is going to raise taxes by 75% for the rich and super rich. He is getting the order correct by not starting at the bottom and attacking the poorest and blaming them for the state the country is in, which it was bad government and and bankers that were doing the damage to the country for years and not the average hard working people.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/10/152445464/new-french-president-pledges-to-tax-rich-75-percent

Francois Hollande is going to break every promise he made.
He has already started my saying that the countries finances need independent auditing, in other words I may not be able to afford all these promises.

Maura74

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Francois Hollande is going to break every promise he made.
He has already started my saying that the countries finances need independent auditing, in other words I may not be able to afford all these promises.

I cannot understand what you are saying as what is not affordable it is making cuts in salaries from ministers that are getting too much and also charging more taxes from the rich therefore I cannot understand whey say cannot not afford all the cuts and collecting more taxes

itzme

femur61 wrote: »

My main grip is that they have never worked in the real world. From the public sector to where another public sector job.

So you admit that you were wrong about most then?

itzme

SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »

Link from www.thejournal.ie/



When will we learn? How can posters here defend the astronomical salaries of our Junior Ministers, who earn more than France's cabinet ministers?

This new "Viva La France" attitude here is laughable, where was your comparison to French politicians wages yesterday before 12 when their political leader was earning 242k compared to ours 200k. Or how about when sarkozy gave himself a 140% pay rise here in 2007. Endas pay is less than it was in 2007 today, Hollainde's is 180% what it was in 2007, yeah way to take a hit France, great example.
You want a reason why you could say our politicians earning more is justified here. The average wage in Ireland (adjusted for all taxation) is 127% that of France, so thats all workers in the country.

We should be making decisions on pay for politicians in Ireland based on our economy not cherry picking our figures. We should be talking about how we can link the base pay of a politician to their peers in the public sector (i.e department heads) and then how we can tie the base pay levels in the PS to cost of living and average wage, then the pay levels will filter up and be fair for our country.

(PS before anyone goes nuts at me, I applaud the 30% deduction in France and also would belief ministers and the Taoiseach could take a pay cut as well but I don't agree with just throwing random figures out like 20%-30% without some explanation of their justification)

Fr Tod Umptious

Maura74 wrote: »

I cannot understand what you are saying as what is not affordable it is making cuts in salaries from ministers that are getting too much and also charging more taxes from the rich therefore I cannot understand whey say cannot not afford all the cuts and collecting more taxes

Because there is no way he is going to get anyone to pay tax at 75%.

Anyone who is liable for that will be be avoiding it by various means that their well paid accountants advise.

Maura74

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because there is no way he is going to get anyone to pay tax at 75%.

Anyone who is liable for that will be be avoiding it by various means that their well paid accountants advise.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, however if all the loophole are plugged then it would be more difficult to get away with tax avoidance. I am sure most government knows who their rich friends are.

The people of France voted him in on that agenda and I am sure he will do it.

He is committed to reducing the public section as well as everyone knows the public section cannot generate growth for the country.

paddyandy

If you don't pay 'em you dont get 'em .If they do a good job pay them their worth .Take the average Man on the street and he'd miss his orn'ery job very soon .Life for them is a mad panto' going wrong half of the time .We would'nt want the job and if we do ...then we don't understand it .Dealing with the public.......no thanks !

antoobrien

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because there is no way he is going to get anyone to pay tax at 75%.

Anyone who is liable for that will be be avoiding it by various means that their well paid accountants advise.

Yes, we have proof of that here from the not too distant past. There was Ansbacher, the bogus offshore accounts etc.

Look up the tax returns & rates form the 80s & early 90s from when we had 3 rates of tax. Look at 1993 - when the top rate of 48% was paid after £7,675 - inflation adjusted €15,415.85. At the time the average earnings (based on CSO info for 98,- can't find any for 93) and inflation at the time were about €375 (currently about twice that).

golfwallah

itzme wrote: »

This new "Viva La France" attitude here is laughable, where was your comparison to French politicians wages yesterday before 12 when their political leader was earning 242k compared to ours 200k. Or how about when sarkozy gave himself a 140% pay rise here in 2007. Endas pay is less than it was in 2007 today, Hollainde's is 180% what it was in 2007, yeah way to take a hit France, great example.
You want a reason why you could say our politicians earning more is justified here. The average wage in Ireland (adjusted for all taxation) is 127% that of France, so thats all workers in the country.

We should be making decisions on pay for politicians in Ireland based on our economy not cherry picking our figures. We should be talking about how we can link the base pay of a politician to their peers in the public sector (i.e department heads) and then how we can tie the base pay levels in the PS to cost of living and average wage, then the pay levels will filter up and be fair for our country.

(PS before anyone goes nuts at me, I applaud the 30% deduction in France and also would belief ministers and the Taoiseach could take a pay cut as well but I don't agree with just throwing random figures out like 20%-30% without some explanation of their justification)

With respect, I think you may have misinterpreted the data on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage.

My reading of the figures is that the average disposable wage in Ireland for 2010 was 38% higher than France based on the OECD's purchasing power parity exchange rates (i.e. money needed to by the same goods and services compared between 2 countries).

The facts that average disposable rates were 38% higher last year plus our Taoiseach’s salary (after reduction of 30% to €200,000) is now €20,000 or 11% higher than the reduced rate of €180,000 paid to the French President, show that our political leaders still have some way to go in cutting their pay rates.

I’m all for benchmarking with analogous rates abroad, but benchmarking is a 2 way street.

So Enda and the lads, well done so far, but you now have more to do to get productivity back into line with our European colleagues.;)

SerialComplaint

Pottler wrote: »

Our Politicians swear by "Benchmarking", so lets do it-benchmark their salaries to those Politicians of a European nation of comparable size. .

These comparisons are meaningless unless you bring in cost of living. Irish politicians need to live in Ireland, buy/rent their house in Ireland, buy/rent their car in Ireland and buy their food in Ireland.

itzme

golfwallah wrote: »

With respect, I think you may have misinterpreted the data on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage.

My reading of the figures is that the average disposable wage in Ireland for 2010 was 38% higher than France based on the OECD's purchasing power parity exchange rates (i.e. money needed to by the same goods and services compared between 2 countries).

The facts that average disposable rates were 38% higher last year plus our Taoiseach’s salary (after reduction of 30% to €200,000) is now €20,000 or 11% higher than the reduced rate of €180,000 paid to the French President, show that our political leaders still have some way to go in cutting their pay rates.

I’m all for benchmarking with analogous rates abroad, but benchmarking is a 2 way street.

So Enda and the lads, well done so far, but you now have more to do to get productivity back into line with our European colleagues.;)

I see where you're coming from, seems I took the percentage from the wrong column alright. The 4th column gross wage is the wage in the country in its national currency unit as far as I can tell(http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx Data By Theme->Labour->Earnings) and in that our gross wage is 127% of France's. Our disposable income is 138% of France's which is the first column which is PPP adjusted and after tax deductions in the country are applied. Do you agree?

A point I was trying to make was that this is not an average wage of the PS but the whole country, we as a country (private sector and all) (gross income) earn more and have more (adjusted) disposable income than France. But do they need more disposable income when their health and education is much cheaper than ours?
Trying to benchmark against other countries is a very complicated issue and is often over simplified to progress a particular pre-held view. For instance, Germany could be argued to be the most successful economy in Europe through this crisis, the ratio of gross pay to leaders salary is higher than both ours and Frances do we benchmark against them which could be used to justify an increase, the French, the Spanish? Do we do it based on Gross salary? Salary after taxes?

I'm all for a system that reviews pay up and down (again I agree with you that I think there is room for it to go down in most cases for politicians at the minute) but I think benchmarking based on other countries removes our political autonomy and benchmarking based purely on private sector in Ireland clearly didn't work. If Frances reduces their leaders pay and Germany increases it (which has happened) who do we follow? Why should we be following them rather than making our own minds up based on our circumstances?

fianna saor

paddyandy wrote: »

If you don't pay 'em you dont get 'em .If they do a good job pay them their worth .Take the average Man on the street and he'd miss his orn'ery job very soon .Life for them is a mad panto' going wrong half of the time .We would'nt want the job and if we do ...then we don't understand it .Dealing with the public.......no thanks !

if that was the politicians you were referring to its a rarity, most government ministers dont have a notion of what its like for the ordinary joe, maybe if they did deal with the public on a personal basis a bit more often they might actually understand everyday life a bit more.

golfwallah

itzme wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, seems I took the percentage from the wrong column alright. The 4th column gross wage is the wage in the country in its national currency unit as far as I can tell(http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx Data By Theme->Labour->Earnings) and in that our gross wage is 127% of France's. Our disposable income is 138% of France's which is the first column which is PPP adjusted and after tax deductions in the country are applied. Do you agree?

Yes.

itzme wrote: »

A point I was trying to make was that this is not an average wage of the PS but the whole country, we as a country (private sector and all) (gross income) earn more and have more (adjusted) disposable income than France. But do they need more disposable income when their health and education is much cheaper than ours?
Trying to benchmark against other countries is a very complicated issue and is often over simplified to progress a particular pre-held view. For instance, Germany could be argued to be the most successful economy in Europe through this crisis, the ratio of gross pay to leaders salary is higher than both ours and Frances do we benchmark against them which could be used to justify an increase, the French, the Spanish? Do we do it based on Gross salary? Salary after taxes?

Agreed, it’s not as simple as it looks but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. And benchmarking should be only one factor in the mix of assessing people’s pay. There are other norms such as company profitability, meeting agreed financial or service level targets (where profitability is not suitable as a measure), meeting agreed performance targets, etc. Some criteria are harder to measure than others and require an element of arbitrary judgement (subject to an independent appeals process), but in my experience, with good will from all concerned, it can be done.

In fact, my recollection of reading on how the political economic system works in Germany is that key representatives of capital, labour and politics have an agreed process, whereby capital and labour receive what is considered to be a fair reward. Sometimes even unions there agree on pay cuts, but the overall objective seems to be doing what is best for the majority in a generally acceptable way.

itzme wrote: »

I'm all for a system that reviews pay up and down (again I agree with you that I think there is room for it to go down in most cases for politicians at the minute) but I think benchmarking based on other countries removes our political autonomy and benchmarking based purely on private sector in Ireland clearly didn't work. If Frances reduces their leaders pay and Germany increases it (which has happened) who do we follow? Why should we be following them rather than making our own minds up based on our circumstances?

Again, maybe we could learn something from the German political economic model, after all it has been successful and largely responsible for their economic success since world war 2. That being said, we would have to do it in our own way and we haven’t shared the same experiences of war, hyper-inflation, dictatorship and post-war re-building. But we have had our own Irish experience of over-dependence on one powerful neighbour, the economic war with the UK and latterly, the economic crisis of the last 5 years. We need an agreed solution to providing a fair return to both capital and labour, involving key representatives of the social partners.

This doesn’t mean a return to the old one-sided partnership formula, where government made massive concessions to unions and rewarded themselves with massive pay increases as well. But we do need a balanced and fair solution as a way forward and political leader pay is an important part of the mix.

HarryPotter41

Maura74 wrote: »

If it got to do with the cost of living Spain has the same costs as Ireland as it is in the euro, when they joined just like Ireland everything rounded upwards, therefore why such desparity in salaries, it is just greed with the TD's.

The Taoiseach and his predecessors cannot say that they have done such a wonderful job that they deserve their overinflated salaries.

You have not visited many eurozone countries if you think the cost of living is the same.

paddyandy

fianna saor wrote: »

if that was the politicians you were referring to its a rarity, most government ministers dont have a notion of what its like for the ordinary joe, maybe if they did deal with the public on a personal basis a bit more often they might actually understand everyday life a bit more.

You don't rise anywhere in politics without a very good knowledge with understanding of what the ordinary person thinks .No.1 .All government ministers come up from dealing with ordinary people .Which one did'nt ?

itzme

golfwallah wrote: »

Yes.



Agreed, it’s not as simple as it looks but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. And benchmarking should be only one factor in the mix of assessing people’s pay. There are other norms such as company profitability, meeting agreed financial or service level targets (where profitability is not suitable as a measure), meeting agreed performance targets, etc. Some criteria are harder to measure than others and require an element of arbitrary judgement (subject to an independent appeals process), but in my experience, with good will from all concerned, it can be done.

In fact, my recollection of reading on how the political economic system works in Germany is that key representatives of capital, labour and politics have an agreed process, whereby capital and labour receive what is considered to be a fair reward. Sometimes even unions there agree on pay cuts, but the overall objective seems to be doing what is best for the majority in a generally acceptable way.

.

I'm only quoting part of your post as it seems to be one point.
I completely agree with looking at other systems and making comparisons with their implementations and seeing if we can learn from them. I still don't see how we can benchmark based on this though, and more importantly disagree with the idea of it.

Just as a quick example, benchmarking implies tying our politicians pay to another country or countries pay levels. This really doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Forgetting about the practicalities of cost of living, taxation, disposable income and all that. I mean purely on political reasons and our political sovereignty. Do we tie to one country, lets say Germany. They have seen pay increases since 2007, if we benchmarked based on them should we increase pay? Do we tie to France, who have seen pay increases and decreases since 2007? Or do we try a complicated (in other words useless) multi country benchmarking where if France goes down but Germany goes up what we do we do? What about Spain, Belgium, USA, UK.......? Pay in these areas are also politically motivated, lets take three (simplistic) examples as in some people believe in the
a) "to attract the best we have to pay the best"
b) "they're public servants so should be paid less as they are doing it for the public good"
c) somewhere in between.
If Germany elects a government whose mandate from their people is a), and our's was elected on b) or c) why would we even consider comparing pay?

Your points on the specific method on how pay and increases are worked in Germany is very interesting and that sort of investigation into other countries structures (and more importantly) our own is really what we need. I would 100% agree with the underlying theme of the German system seeming to be more in the countries interests, as in the staff accepting pay cuts and so on. I would think that the Us V Them culture that has fostered in Ireland particularly between public and private is a serious problem to any sort of positive movement forward.

origirover

itzme wrote: »

Thread stinks of the usual Irish attitude of
"Hey, that guy over there is paid more than me... Get him"

The Taoiseachs salary was 285k at the end of 2009 http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/taoiseach-to-take-euro28500-pay-cut-107545.html
its 200k now. Instead of people honestly evaluating this with a little of sense, something like it was way too high but the fact that it has come down nearly 30% in less than 3 years is positive progress. Lets accept that and try and push for a further reduction, there are people just beating the drum giving out that it isn't as low as it should be (average industrial wage...seriously). Change doesn't happen instantly, anyone calling for instant change is naive.
Again for anyone who would be interested in a bit of perspective, here is a comparison of world leaders salaries http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/the-taoiseach%E2%80%99s-new-salary-and-how-it-compares-with-overseas-counterparts/. This doesn't include any extras like Camp David or 10 Downing Street and the like.

Changes should occur instantly as they do when applied to the electorat like budget cuts, increases is vat, changes occur for the people much faster than they do for the White collar criminals running this country.....

Farmer Pudsey

SerialComplaint wrote: »

These comparisons are meaningless unless you bring in cost of living. Irish politicians need to live in Ireland, buy/rent their house in Ireland, buy/rent their car in Ireland and buy their food in Ireland.

The reality is not just is there pay higher we have a lot more of the f##kers. We have the highest rate of repersenatation here in Ireland. GB has nearly 10 times the population and there are about three times the no of MP to TD. and it is similar accross Europe so not only do we pay them more we have too mant as well.

The only time this is an advantage is during a revolution

ardmacha

We have the highest rate of repersenatation here in Ireland.

Not so, Irish representation is typical enough of states with similar population and is being reduced somewhat.

Finland 200
Denmark 179
Norway 169
Ireland 166

People are always ranting about the cost of TDs or the Seanad, but the problem is not the size or even the cost of these, but their performance.

ArmaniJeanss

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reality is not just is there pay higher we have a lot more of the f##kers. We have the highest rate of repersenatation here in Ireland. GB has nearly 10 times the population and there are about three times the no of MP to TD. and it is similar accross Europe so not only do we pay them more we have too mant as well.

Nobody ever compares us to Luxembourg with its parliament of 60 and its population of 500,000.
Perhaps we should be in proportion to them and increase our Dail to 600 TDs.

Or maybe the example just clarifies that comparing the sizes of parliaments in countries with 10x different populations is completely hatstand.

golden lane

a simple formula should be followed.......average wage plus an amount for each voter....

clashburke

Senator - €75,000
TD - €110,000
Junior Ministers - €120,000
Ministers - €140,000
Taoiseach - €180,000

And no expences paid for travel, hotels, food or such things. Offices in the Dail can be supplied by the Oireachtas staff. Take taxes from the above and there is quite a saving with still significant wages to get the so called best of the best.:rolleyes:

The number of TD's cut to 150 would be enough. We do need more than the 50odd mentioned above!! Committees need opposing voices and enough people to fill places on such!! As mentioned comparison to U.K, Germany or USA is unrealistic in relation to representation.
Luxembourg has 60MP to 500,000 people as 18(1 TD/Mp per 27,000 people as in Ireland) wouldn't fill a government.

And lastly cut in the Oireachtas wages/staff would be minor in the big picture but savings in combining County Councils and removing seats in the combinations could be quite alot more.

Maura74

They done all the cutbacks at the bottom of the food chain, it's time now to do some cutbacks at the top of the food chain as well.

BTW Ireland population is lower than that of Greater London:(

paddyandy

You won't get Top quality cheaply a simple irrefutable fact of life .Footballers kick a bit of leather about, are they overpaid ? A Clown telling jokes ; Is he overpaid ? A man hitting a little white ball is he overpaid ? A rutting Baboon with a Guitar ;is he overpaid ?A barrister who gets $200+- for a signature ; Is he overpaid ?The Cowboy who does an hour's work and asks for $300 ;Is he overpaid ?The list goes on and on .

zootroid

I have no issue with the salaries paid to TD's. The company I work for has a small number of employees that earn in excess of 100k. The salary should reflect the seriousness of the job, and I think the current salary arrangements are about right.

What I do have an issue with is the unvouched expenses they claim. Expenses should operate as they do in the private sector. If you have a legitimate business expense, you put in your claim backed up by receipts.

SerialComplaint

zootroid wrote: »

What I do have an issue with is the unvouched expenses they claim. Expenses should operate as they do in the private sector. If you have a legitimate business expense, you put in your claim backed up by receipts.

Nonsense - many private businesses that have staff full-time on the road operate unvouched expenses for overnights or meals or both. There is no value in having a huge bureaucracy collecting and checking receipts. The vouching thing is a red herring. It's the level of expenses that's the problem - a grand a month turning-up money for a Dublin TD.

mistermouse

The fact that the Dail is empty for most of the day, most of the week is quite telling.

Given that alot of the work is done and drawn up by civil servants etc, I fail to see how they can justify such salaries.

The idea of signing in for the day and getting paid no matter how much time they spend there is rediculious

Very few in the private sector get away turning up, signing in and not having to account for their time

I worked for a company who actually routinely had staff followed, not to mention had time sheets and work diaries that had to all add up and be signed off

I did not get a pension or allowance like TDs get when they are voted out, what ex-tds get is more rediculious than those still there, and claiming pensions while still working is just, well, Irish

waltermc

At time of the general election campaign I had then now finance minister call to my door and I confronted him over the salaries of TDs and he had the never to tell me he only gets €3,000 a month. Given the fact that a TD salary is over €92k I did not believe a word out of his mouth. That salary is more than enough for them and they should have their expenses scrapped. We are a small country and cant afford to be paying out huge salaries. Its time the IMF step in force their wages to be cut. Many of them dont need these wages they are so rich

senordingdong

What I don't understand is why they need such big salaries when they're benefits and allowances prevent them from ever having to put their hands in their pockets.

Avatarr

I think we will all agree that the level of pay of Irish politicians is far beyond what is equatable for both the size of the country and
(lets be honest) the competence they demonstrate.

What grates on me is the expenses on top of these salaries and the pensions awaiting there, invariably, early retirement.

To illustrate this, consider former Fianna Fail minister Dick Roche, who is on course to earn up to €200,000 this year in his new role as a lobbyist. This will be on top of his €50,000 public pension and excluding the €130,000 lump sum payment.

Absolute madness.........

golden lane

Avatarr wrote: »

I think we will all agree that the level of pay of Irish politicians is far beyond what is equatable for both the size of the country and
(lets be honest) the competence they demonstrate.

What grates on me is the expenses on top of these salaries and the pensions awaiting there, invariably, early retirement.

To illustrate this, consider former Fianna Fail minister Dick Roche, who is on course to earn up to €200,000 this year in his new role as a lobbyist. This will be on top of his €50,000 public pension and excluding the €130,000 lump sum payment.

Absolute madness.........

"madness".....and all that on borrowed money....

there is lunatic tendency entering the irish way of doing things....

ilovesleep

Avatarr wrote: »

I think we will all agree that the level of pay of Irish politicians is far beyond what is equatable for both the size of the country and
(lets be honest) the competence they demonstrate.

What grates on me is the expenses on top of these salaries and the pensions awaiting there, invariably, early retirement.

To illustrate this, consider former Fianna Fail minister Dick Roche, who is on course to earn up to €200,000 this year in his new role as a lobbyist. This will be on top of his €50,000 public pension and excluding the €130,000 lump sum payment.

Absolute madness.........

There is a councilor out my way who is receiving three pensions that are nearing up to 200,000 PA. Crazy.

As others have said the unvouched expenses on top of their salaries. If a private company was coming into financial difficulty, they will be cutting back left, right and centre to stay afloat. There may be lay-offs and wage cuts too. Everything and anything would be looked at to save money.

Another problem I have are their pensions. It's too much especially when the state is broke. Any early retirement too. And multiple pensions.

SerialComplaint

ilovesleep wrote: »

There is a councilor out my way who is receiving three pensions that are nearing up to 200,000 PA. Crazy.
.

No-one gets anything near that figure for their work as a Councillor. The only scenario where this could be true would be an ex-Taoiseach or senior Minister who is now a Councillor - which I don't think happens.

Given that public pensions are in the public domain, please name your well-endowed Councillor.