Dublin Marathon 2012 - 'Improvers' thread

menoscemo

cambo_gueno wrote: »

Just how 'S' should the 'LSR' be ? I am aiming for a 3.30 time in DCM, which is approximately 8.30 per mile.
And on the subject of LSRs, why do they need to be slow ? Should they not be run at PMP ? I must say that even though I did them last year, I really didn't understand why I was doing them and what benefit (apart from the obvious distance) they had.

3.30 is 8 min/mile.
The reasons most should be slower than PMP are:
1. Running them slow develops your fat burning capabilities. You will need to burn a certain amount of fat to last the marathon distance without fading. Running your LSR's fast just teaches your body to burn glycogen- this is the opposite of what you want.
2. Getting time on your feet: you want to teach your body to keep going for 3+ hours. At the same stage you do not want or need to be covering more than 22 miles so therefore you need to go a bit slower than PMP.
3. Running your LSR's at PMP will tire you out. You should take a long time to recover from 20 miles at PMP and it will affect your midweek runs. To run a good marathon you need to be covering loads of miles during the week. Overall mileage is as important as the length of the LSR.
4. High intensity of the long run will leave you more prone to injury.

I am not saying you shouldn't run some of your LSRs at PMP. If you follow P&D about half of the LSRs have some PMP miles included (peaking at 18 miles with 14 @PMP). It is definitely a good idea to get used to running the final few miles of your LSR's at PMP, so in your case in an 18 miler you could run 12 at 9 min/mile and the final 6 at 8 min/mile or for example a progression run of 6 @ 9min/mile, 6 @ 8:30/mile and the final 6@ 8 min/mile.

RayCun

cambo_gueno wrote: »

Just how 'S' should the 'LSR' be ? I am aiming for a 3.30 time in DCM, which is approximately 8.30 per mile.
And on the subject of LSRs, why do they need to be slow ? Should they not be run at PMP ? I must say that even though I did them last year, I really didn't understand why I was doing them and what benefit (apart from the obvious distance) they had.

I hate to break it to you, but 3.30 is 8 minute miles
LSRs should be about 10% slower, so close to 9 minute miles. You could do some LSRs where you run the first half at 9 minute miles and the second at 8.30s, and some LSRs could include PMP miles, so it's not all the same slow pace.
The benefits are increased time on your feet, training your body to burn fat for fuel, and being able to recover from your LSR fast enough to do the rest of your runs in a week (and also recovering week to week, so over the course of the training plan you are getting stronger instead of burning out)

PaulieC

thanks all for pointing out the obvious!! I actually knew that and had been doing my longer runs at the weekends at 8.30 pace, that's probably why that number was in my head. Good job that was pointed out in advance of the day too, otherwise I would've been in for a bit of a maths-related disappointment

And thanks for the explanations too - they make perfect sense.

mlyj

Hi All,

Just signed up for Dublin again this year but have a question for some of the more experienced runnings !!

I done my first marathon in Dublin last year and got serious cramps in both my legs about 19 / 20 miles, I then signed up for Belfast this year and the ever same thing happened again which completely destroyed my times .http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/mad.gifhttp://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/mad.gif

The real annoying thing is that for both marathons all my training runs went so well.

Does this happen to anyone else / any advice would be really appreciated

Micilin Muc

mlyj wrote: »

Hi All,

Just signed up for Dublin again this year but have a question for some of the more experienced runnings !!

I done my first marathon in Dublin last year and got serious cramps in both my legs about 19 / 20 miles, I then signed up for Belfast this year and the ever same thing happened again which completely destroyed my times .http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/mad.gifhttp://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/mad.gif

The real annoying thing is that for both marathons all my training runs went so well.

Does this happen to anyone else / any advice would be really appreciated

What kind of time did you finish it in, and what pace do you do on Long Runs?

mlyj

Finished Dublin 4:25 and Belfast 4:19

Normally the shorter run >15 miles I'd run at 7:30 - 8:00 if I was running anything longer than that I go about 8:30 - 9:30.

Its sole distroying having to walk the final few miles

Micilin Muc

mlyj wrote: »

Finished Dublin 4:25 and Belfast 4:19

Normally the shorter run >15 miles I'd run at 7:30 - 8:00 if I was running anything longer than that I go about 8:30 - 9:30.

Its sole distroying having to walk the final few miles

8:30min/mile to 9:30min/mile for Long Runs would be suited to a 3:30 marathon. If your goal was a sub-4 marathon, you should have been doing your Long Runs slower, about 9:55min/mile to 10:45min/mile. The slower-paced Long Runs are all about getting used to long periods of time on your feet.

belcarra

Micilin Muc wrote: »

8:30min/mile to 9:30min/mile for Long Runs would be suited to a 3:30 marathon. If your goal was a sub-4 marathon, you should have been doing your Long Runs slower, about 9:55min/mile to 10:45min/mile. The slower-paced Long Runs are all about getting used to long periods of time on your feet.

To add to Micilin's comments:
If you do the LSRs at too quick a pace you will be mainly using glycogen. An extra benefit of going that bit slower instead means you will use more of your fat stores in the fuel mix so that your body will become more efficient at burning fat. This should mean that come race day you should last better past the 20 mile mark, rather than hitting a wall.

Also, if it is a simple case of cramps, then make sure you have enough electrolytes in your system. I know this was a big factor for me in past marathons where I would have a similar case around mile 18-20. Salt building up on my face and legs as a result of sweating. When you only take water to battle against dehydration you are in effect diluting further the electrolytes which are still present and therefore worsening the situation. A lack of electrolytes is a big factor in cramping. Try taking some Nuun (Or equivalent) tablets in your water drinks on LSRs to see if this helps.

mlyj

thanks for the advise.. I'll try running a little slower on the longer runs and will definitely try Nuun as I think its just bad cramps on the day which never seemed to bother me during the training..

Bring on Dublin...

macinalli

mlyj wrote: »

thanks for the advise.. I'll try running a little slower on the longer runs

Do you have a target time for Dublin? Unless you're planning on a seriously fast time then you need to go a LOT slower on your long runs. 15 miles is a long run and if you're doing that at below 8 minute mile pace, then you're not really gaining with regards to marathon training. If for example your target is 4hrs, then your longer runs (all of them!) should be close to 10 min/mile pace.

That's good advice regarding salts balance, but another aspect about long runs is simply time on your feet. For how many of your training runs were you out for 3 hrs or more? You need to train the body to get used to this also!

mlyj

I suppose this is all part of the learning game..

I never really had a target time but based on my training I was kinda hoping for 3.30 or there abouts.. Most of my long runs 20+ were all completed sub the 3 hr mark and probably only one or two above 3 hr's.. suppose this is just the pace that I've gotten used to and feel fairly conformable with but will definitely try slowing down a bit and see what happens

macinalli

mlyj wrote: »

I never really had a target time but based on my training I was kinda hoping for 3.30 or there abouts.

You're in an unusual position in that your training times and your race results are way out of sync. Have you done a half marathon recently? If so, what time did you do? It could be worth finding one over the next couple of weeks and using that as a guide for race pace.

3.30 is an ambitious target - a 49 minute improvement! How did you come up with this figure? If it was from that McMillan pace calculator, then be wary! It seems to be great for shorter distances, but doesn't tie up for marathon unless you have lots of miles done.

Last point - have you a training plan? If you are going to go for 3.30 then you need a proper plan and lots of people here recommend P&D. I've never used it before, but will be trying it for my next marathon (Berlin).

Red Belly

On Monday night I did my FIRST Key run #1 for this week of my half marathon programme. This involved 3 x 2000m with a target pace of 9:35 with 400m rest intervals. Managed to get just inside the target time for each interval. However, I picked up an injury on my left shin, shin splints I hope, but this is not an injury I've ever had before. Very sore though!

I haven't run since but have got out on the bike for a 1 hour spin on Wednesday with no adverse effects and hope to do so again tonight. the pain which was very nasty for a couple of days is subsiding but hasn't gone away yet so I'll be sticking with bike only for a few more days at least. This does somewhat derail my half marathon training schedule but hopefully I'll be back in action in time for the race on June 24th. I'll probably dispense with the target paces for the interval runs and tempo runs and I might cut out the long runs (my programme has me doing a 10 miler, then a 13-miler and finally an 8 miler before race day). I'll probably cut that 13-miler completely, reduce the ten to an easy 8 and make the last 8 a very easy 8.

My immediate priority is to be able to run the half and go for a PB. Shinsplints could turn out to be a stress fracture and I'll probably get an indication of that pretty soon when I start running again. I would be pretty surprised though as I'm a relatively recent convert to running and haven't clocked up massive mileage. I still have time to take four weeks out and start building back towards Dublin if I have to. With a sub-4 at Dublin my primary target for the year I'm forcing myself to be cautious about this injury (not something I'm usually too good at). If I did miss four weeks I might have to adjust that goal. 4:28 is my PB so 4:15 would be decent improvement and even 10-minute miling would bring me a PB.

rb

mlyj

I know my results are not matching the effort of training that I've done but that brings me right back to my initial problem - "cramps"

In both Dublin and Belfast my half ways times are 1:40 & 1:43 consecutively but then the cramps took hold and left me all but dragging myself to across the finish line..

As for the training plan, I've being using the free Asics one (http://my.asics.co.uk) but normally adding an extra mile or two per run depending on the day and usually do 3 / 4 runs per week - I think its a good enough plan and sends you reminder emails to upload your runs - which can help when you need a little motivation..

I normally don't take a lot of salt in my diet but will try increasing this closer to Dublin..

Good luck with Berlin..

PaulieC

have seen a few mentions of this here and thought I would look into it. Is there an online resource to follow or does one have to purchase the book ?
I was (am) going to follow the advanced Hal Higdon plan as the novice plan served me well last year but all the mentions of P&D worries me that HH isn't going to cut it

The_Boy_Wonder

cambo_gueno wrote: »

have seen a few mentions of this here and thought I would look into it. Is there an online resource to follow or does one have to purchase the book ?
I was (am) going to follow the advanced Hal Higdon plan as the novice plan served me well last year but all the mentions of P&D worries me that HH isn't going to cut it

Hi I think you can find various iterations of some of the plans online. I think someone posted some links to part of one fo the plans earlier in the thread.
I followed the 12 week 55 mile plan earlier this year for Barcelona and it made a huge difference to my training ad performance (DCM 2011 4.16 to Barca 3.38) to . It gave a lot of structure to my previous rambling training. To be honest any structured plan would have helped me. The plan starts with 30+ miles per week (4 days) and rises to 55 (5 days - 2 hardish runs, 1 LSR and 2 recovery runs).

There are a number of other plans 12 - 18 weeks and 55/70/120 miles etc.

The book is a worthwhile purchase for the sake of less than €20 on amazon (price of a race entry / t shirt or pair of shorts). It explains the reason why we need to do certain runs, the science behind improving, diet, stretching etc.

Different plans work for different folk. It certainly worked for me, but HH could do just as solid a job. I'll be following the same plan again (except 18 weeks) for DCM 2012 and try and increase the speeds of the runs from Barca training.

Younganne

Wow, that was some difference in time, The Boy Wonder, Well Done....I know a few people who have gone from Hal Higdon Novice/Intermediate plans to P&D and have knocked significant times of their marathons...Hence i'll be attemping it for DCM 2012....

I agree the book is worth purchasing as it give a better understanding of running and why the different types of workouts are included in the plans!

Cambo, If you don't want to buy the book, although i'd recommend it, i'll be posting my weekly plan (P&D 18wk up to 55miles )at the start of each week on my log. Back on page 4 of this log there is a link to where you can get an older version of the P&D plan

PaulieC

Younganne wrote: »

Wow, that was some difference in time, The Boy Wonder, Well Done....I know a few people who have gone from Hal Higdon Novice/Intermediate plans to P&D and have knocked significant times of their marathons...Hence i'll be attemping it for DCM 2012....

I agree the book is worth purchasing as it give a better understanding of running and why the different types of workouts are included in the plans!

Cambo, If you don't want to buy the book, although i'd recommend it, i'll be posting my weekly plan (P&D 18wk up to 55miles )at the start of each week on my log. Back on page 4 of this log there is a link to where you can get an older version of the P&D plan

Thanks Anne, but I'll buy it anyway. I always find them handy to dip into whenever. Now to find somewhere I town that stocks it...and someone to go in and get for me

macinalli

mlyj wrote: »

As for the training plan, I've being using the free Asics one (http://my.asics.co.uk) but normally adding an extra mile or two per run depending on the day and usually do 3 / 4 runs per week - I think its a good enough plan and sends you reminder emails to upload your runs - which can help when you need a little motivation..

Just took a look at that plan and to be honest, it looks like a disaster. My target for the Berlin is sub 3.20 and I'll be following P&D. It's an 18 week plan, 5-6 days per week of running and maxing out at 55 miles per week. It'll be hard work, but there are no short cuts in marathon training.

For the same target time the Asics plan has 4 running days per week (it doesn't allow any more!) and maxes out at 31 miles per week - that just doesn't add up!

I've been advised by a few experienced runners that to absorb your long runs you need to be out running most days (5-6). If you're taking half of every week off then you're just not going to get the benefit from the long runs. There's lots of mention of P&D on this thread already - worth investigating.

rainbow kirby

macinalli wrote: »

For the same target time the Asics plan has 4 running days per week (it doesn't allow any more!) and maxes out at 31 miles per week - that just doesn't add up!

Also, a 20 mile and a 17.5 mile run at race pace... only supported by runs during the week of 3, 5 and 3 miles. That's just a recipe to get injured.

RedRunner

good week for me this week... 3+5+6+5+12(LSR today in wind and rain...tough going)
Hopefully will have good base going into plan in few weeks. Sub 4 hr Marathon looking tough for me at this point though

run1

So far this year I have just done a 10 miler, 5 km, half marathon and 10 km, with the aim being to do the DCM again for the 2nd time. What Im wondering though is, should I step back the mileage now and give my legs a break before starting training again mid summer for the DCM, following roughly then race series? Or should I keep up the mileage and aim for another half the end of June? My gut is saying drop back but I would love some opinions from seasoned marathoners?:)

RedRunner

run1 wrote: »

So far this year I have just done a 10 miler, 5 km, half marathon and 10 km, with the aim being to do the DCM again for the 2nd time. What Im wondering though is, should I step back the mileage now and give my legs a break before starting training again mid summer for the DCM, following roughly then race series? Or should I keep up the mileage and aim for another half the end of June? My gut is saying drop back but I would love some opinions from seasoned marathoners?:)

That's a really good question. In the same boat myself. Thought by increasing my mileage this year I might have a chance of going sub 4hrs after a 4:45 last year. Was planning at least 3 half marathons incl race series in addition to following Hal Higdon Inter 1 plan. Have also started running in BHAA races .But how do I know what is too much? Certainly don't want to risk injury and have been upping the mileage on a gradual basis up til now. I , like you would welcome some advice on this.

macinalli

run1 wrote: »

So far this year I have just done a 10 miler, 5 km, half marathon and 10 km, with the aim being to do the DCM again for the 2nd time. What Im wondering though is, should I step back the mileage now and give my legs a break before starting training again mid summer for the DCM, following roughly then race series? Or should I keep up the mileage and aim for another half the end of June? My gut is saying drop back but I would love some opinions from seasoned marathoners?:)

I don't think that I'm a 'seasoned marathoner' but I'm not sure what the issue is here! You've done 4 races this year - that shouldn't have you worried about excess mileage going into a marathon training programme. It would be useful to know what training are you currently doing - what does your typical week look like?

With regards to another half at the end of June - why do do you think you need one? They can be useful at the start of a training programme to get an idea of your current pace, but from your post it sounds like you did one recently?

macinalli

RedRunner wrote: »

That's a really good question. In the same boat myself. Thought by increasing my mileage this year I might have a chance of going sub 4hrs after a 4:45 last year. Was planning at least 3 half marathons incl race series in addition to following Hal Higdon Inter 1 plan. Have also started running in BHAA races .But how do I know what is too much? Certainly don't want to risk injury and have been upping the mileage on a gradual basis up til now. I , like you would welcome some advice on this.

Again, same question - why do you think you need at least 3 half marathons? A half marathon before you start training is useful (tells you about your pace) and another maybe 6 weeks before your goal race (help fix a target time). Race experience is always good but if you're running BHAA races then you'll have gotten some good practice there.

With regards to gradually increasing mileage, you should take a look at what the first few weeks of your training plan look like and compare that to your current training. Do they roughly match?

D Chief

Red Belly wrote: »

DCM 2012 will be my 3rd after a 4:28:04 in 2010 and an injury ravaged Cork 2011 in 5:57:28.

I've been following the FIRST (from the 'Runners World Run Less Run Faster' book) training plans since recovering from the injury I picked up/exacerbated in Cork last Summer. I completed the 10k plan and brought my PB down to 47:30 from 49:00 in February. I'm currently approaching the end of the half marathon plan aiming for a half in June but I set a new PB in a half marathon a few weeks ago of 1:53:08.

I'm hoping to get that down to around 1:49 at the end of June then a two week rest period before hitting the 16-week marathon plan. The FIRST equivalent time charts suggest I'm on track for a sub 4 (based on both my 10k and half marathon times this year). I find the training paces challenging and sometimes I go with how I feel on the long runs and just try to get as close as possible without over-tiring myself. The program requires 2 cross training workouts and 3 runs per week and at the moment work/family commitments mean I'm not fitting in the cross-training at the moment but that should ease up soon.

Anyone else used these plans and have they been on target with your eventual marathon times? The evidence of my 10k and half times so far this year is encouraging but the marathon is a whole different ballgame!

rb

Old thread on this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056481701http://

To update what I said in that thread: I used FIRST plan for DCM 11 with sub 4 as my goal, couldn't maintain the pace beyond 26k and finished in 4:15. I followed P&D for Kildare marathon this year with the same sub-4 goal and finished in 3:59:xx.

I haven't committed to DCM 12 yet but if I do, I will use P&D again and/or I might try joining a club and see how that compares as marathon prep.

As I said in that thread I quoted, that is only my experience, it might be different for you and maybe, I didn't follow it as well as I should have. Or maybe, I just had an off-day in DCM 11. The FIRST plan did improve my half time from 1:58 to 1:49.

RedRunner

macinalli wrote: »

Again, same question - why do you think you need at least 3 half marathons? A half marathon before you start training is useful (tells you about your pace) and another maybe 6 weeks before your goal race (help fix a target time). Race experience is always good but if you're running BHAA races then you'll have gotten some good practice there.

With regards to gradually increasing mileage, you should take a look at what the first few weeks of your training plan look like and compare that to your current training. Do they roughly match?

It's not so much that I think I need at least three half marathons.( I'll do the Race Series Half , but have also committed to doing Great Scottish Run with my brother , and currently thinking of throwing in the Clontarf half for the fun of it)In Sept Last year I did the race series and before the ten mile I hadn't actually done ten miles in training and similarly before the half I hadn't done anything more than ten miles.

My theory this year (and flawed it may well be) was to run more races, do more mileage as a whole and maybe the extra mileage would help with the goal of reducing marathon time.

With regard to the plan, I reckon I can easily do the first few weeks based on what I've done so far this year. Maybe i'm being a little too eager though and should ease back before plan starts, what do you think?

macinalli

RedRunner wrote: »

My theory this year (and flawed it may well be) was to run more races, do more mileage as a whole and maybe the extra mileage would help with the goal of reducing marathon time.

More races is definitely a good thing, but they don't all have to be half marathons. Running a hard 10k is a serious test and well worth including in a plan.

RedRunner wrote: »

With regard to the plan, I reckon I can easily do the first few weeks based on what I've done so far this year. Maybe i'm being a little too eager though and should ease back before plan starts, what do you think?

I'm still skeptical about easing up before starting marathon training - most people do the exact opposite! Details would be helpful though - how many miles do you run per week? At what paces?

liamog

I'm following a combination of Hal's Intermediate 1 Plan and the Novice Half Plan (to train the fiancée for her first half).

Is this the right thread for me.

I ran last years Marathon (my first) in 4:24 and would love to bring it under 4 this year. I was fine until the 20 Mile mark but then got really stiff. I eased up on the training last Sept/Oct so if I can just stay on track I think 3:59 is defiantly achievable.

run1

macinalli wrote: »

I don't think that I'm a 'seasoned marathoner' but I'm not sure what the issue is here! You've done 4 races this year - that shouldn't have you worried about excess mileage going into a marathon training programme. It would be useful to know what training are you currently doing - what does your typical week look like?

With regards to another half at the end of June - why do do you think you need one? They can be useful at the start of a training programme to get an idea of your current pace, but from your post it sounds like you did one recently?

Thanks for the replies, I have been doing a good few races up to half marathons for the past few years, and am just wary about getting injured if I kept up the long runs all year versus dropping back to 10 km now building back up again, if thats makes any sense?