Dublin Marathon 2012 - 'Improvers' thread

RedRunner

macinalli wrote: »

More races is definitely a good thing, but they don't all have to be half marathons. Running a hard 10k is a serious test and well worth including in a plan.



I'm still skeptical about easing up before starting marathon training - most people do the exact opposite! Details would be helpful though - how many miles do you run per week? At what paces?

Varies at the moment but to give you an indication here is my last two full weeks: Miles (Avg Pace)

Week 1 : 4.43m (8:46) + 4.29m (9:00) + 5.45m (9:04) +10.58m (9:38)

Week 2 : 2.95 (7:57) + 4.97 (8:15)(Race) + 6.28 (8:49) + 5.12 ( 8:41) + 12.02 (9:53)

This week I'll be doing a lot less because of work commitments and next week I'm travelling 3 days with work so I guess I'll have no choice but to ease up unfortunately.

I would welcome your opinion on what I've been doing so far. I've done 75 miles in last 30 days over 13 runs. My target is a 4 hr DCM and am thinking of starting Hal Higdon Inter 1 on Jun 25.

Thanks

macinalli

RedRunner wrote: »

I've done 75 miles in last 30 days over 13 runs. My target is a 4 hr DCM and am thinking of starting Hal Higdon Inter 1 on Jun 25.

That doesn't seem excessive to me - that's less than 20 miles a week, which would make a decent base for starting a HH programme.

RedRunner wrote: »

Week 1 : 4.43m (8:46) + 4.29m (9:00) + 5.45m (9:04) +10.58m (9:38)
Week 2 : 2.95 (7:57) + 4.97 (8:15)(Race) + 6.28 (8:49) + 5.12 ( 8:41) + 12.02 (9:53)

My one comment about these runs would be that the paces all seem quite close together, e.g. for week 1, the range is from 8:46 to 9:38. If you're going for a 4hr marathon, that's 9.09 per mile. You should try and get your LSR pace down to at least 10 minutes per mile. You should also try and get 1 faster session in - something like a tempo run. For that run your pace should be something between a bit quicker than your half marathon pace, but not too fast. Less is more!

macinalli

run1 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, I have been doing a good few races up to half marathons for the past few years, and am just wary about getting injured if I kept up the long runs all year versus dropping back to 10 km now building back up again, if thats makes any sense?

It doesn't really! The most common cause for injury is to up the intensity/volume too much too soon. If you keep the miles up then you should be able to get a smooth transition into your training. If you take a break then the first few weeks of your training will be a bit of a shock to the body and this can lead to injury. If you're concerned about fatigue, then just keep the miles easy.

RedRunner

macinalli wrote: »

That doesn't seem excessive to me - that's less than 20 miles a week, which would make a decent base for starting a HH programme.



My one comment about these runs would be that the paces all seem quite close together, e.g. for week 1, the range is from 8:46 to 9:38. If you're going for a 4hr marathon, that's 9.09 per mile. You should try and get your LSR pace down to at least 10 minutes per mile. You should also try and get 1 faster session in - something like a tempo run. For that run your pace should be something between a bit quicker than your half marathon pace, but not too fast. Less is more!

Cheers Macinalli...appreciate the advice. Will try slow down the LSR and introduce the tempo run.

brian_russ

Hi lads, I used a plan from Mens Running. It was a fourteen week plan for improvers. I did the DCM 11 with out using any plan and completed in 4.22. I did the Cork Marathon on Monday in 3.51, I was on course for 3.25 but my knee popped and had a bit of walking to do. The plan was very easy to follow, no more than an hours running any day during the week and long runs on Sunday. It suited me cause the Sunday gave me an excuse to stay in on a Saturday. I completed the limerick half in 91 minutes using it too. I really cant speak too highly of it. Good thread by the way

Lizzy C

Hi,
I’ve been enjoying reading this thread and decided to bite the bullet and join. I’m signed up for my second DCM, having completed my first last year in 4:10 and am aiming (again!) for a sub 4 hour this year. I’m looking at the 18 week P&D plan (up to 55 miles) but it looks really TOUGH. But I hear others saying that it yields better results than one of the HH intermediate plans?!
Last year I didn’t really use a plan, but was fairly religious about doing my LSRs every week. In the end my marathon pace was like what I used to run my LSRs at, though my splits from mile 15 onward were a bit all over the place (that was where I lost the 10 mins, as I was following the pacers until then).
So I know I need to do something different this year and am thinking that following a plan is a good place to start, and getting support from others here as well!

Micilin Muc

Lizzy C wrote: »

Hi,
I’ve been enjoying reading this thread and decided to bite the bullet and join. I’m signed up for my second DCM, having completed my first last year in 4:10 and am aiming (again!) for a sub 4 hour this year. I’m looking at the 18 week P&D plan (up to 55 miles) but it looks really TOUGH. But I hear others saying that it yields better results than one of the HH intermediate plans?!
Last year I didn’t really use a plan, but was fairly religious about doing my LSRs every week. In the end my marathon pace was like what I used to run my LSRs at, though my splits from mile 15 onward were a bit all over the place (that was where I lost the 10 mins, as I was following the pacers until then).
So I know I need to do something different this year and am thinking that following a plan is a good place to start, and getting support from others here as well!

P&D-55 is not tough, provided you stick to the plan and the prescribed paces. I started the plan 4 weeks after doing DCM'11 on the HH Novice 1 Plan and found the first few weeks very manageable. In the end I took around 45 minutes off my marathon time and did Connemara in 3:56 a few months ago.

Since you stuck religiously to your LSRs last year, use that to your advantage and stick religiously to P&D-55. You'll be certain to go sub-4 if not faster.

I logged a week-by-week diary of P&D-55 for the Connemarathon if you want more insight. Link

Dsenna

New marathon plan, http://www.marathonguru.com.au/training/dublin ,has anyone tried or come across this plan, it was on the Dublin marathon Facebook site yesterday

Eusty5000

Ok, I'm in too. 3rd marathon after NYC in 2008 & DCM 2009. Both were half-arsed efforts with sporadic training and no attention paid to diet. I managed to complete them both but was unhappy with myself both times and finished on the wrong side of 5hrs. I plan on hopefully doing a 3:59:59 marathon this year & have been steadily building up my miles since getting a Garmin for Christmas (best present ever ). Bought the P&D book last week & have been reading a lot of forums so I've no excuses this time. I'm not a natural runner - I like my wine & my Sky-Plus box way too much, but with a bit of help from my Ipod I'm starting to benefit from constant runs. My last 4 week totals have been 15.8, 18.6, 7.4 (Unwell) & 14.8 miles per week & I ran a half marathon 5 weeks ago (1.52.36) so am I asking for trouble making the jump to 32 miles in the first P&D week? My 18 week plan starts in a fortnight so I think I'll be ok, but I'd appreciate a bit of advice.

macinalli

Eusty5000 wrote: »

My last 4 week totals have been 15.8, 18.6, 7.4 (Unwell) & 14.8 miles per week & I ran a half marathon 5 weeks ago (1.52.36) so am I asking for trouble making the jump to 32 miles in the first P&D week? My 18 week plan starts in a fortnight so I think I'll be ok, but I'd appreciate a bit of advice.

It does sound like a recipe for getting injured so you do need to be careful. How many days a week do you currently train? I think the P&D plan typically has 5 days per week so you do need to build up to that. I would suggest that for the next 2 weeks you should try and run 5 days, but keep most of it very easy. There's a 10% rule about increasing your mileage - try for maybe 22 and 25 miles for the next 2 weeks. Also make sure to listen out for any niggles that the increased running might raise.

Micilin Muc

macinalli wrote: »

I think the P&D plan typically has 5 days per week so you do need to build up to that. I would suggest that for the next 2 weeks you should try and run 5 days, but keep most of it very easy.

P&D-55 starts off at 4 days per week and moves up to 5 days in Week 3.

+1 on keeping the pace easy between now and then.

PDCAT

Hi Folks

Planning to do my second Marathon (first one DCM 11). Last October ran 4.13 - disappointed with this as was aiming for sub 4. Used the HH Novice 1 plan. Got injured and missed three weeks training in September, only completed one 20miler and one 16 miler.
On the day was with the sub 4 pacers until mile 18 then i died a sad and lonely death.....
Am looking to run Amsterdam this year, week before Dublin. I may change based on how training is going and run Dublin instead but for now my target is Amsterdam.

My goal is sub 3.45 although if i beat 4 hours i'll take it. I'm planning to use HH Intermediate 1 Plan (saving P&D for next spring).
I currently run 4 days a week (approx 25 miles per week). My main PB's are 10mile 1.16.XX & Half Marathon 1.41.XX.

As part of the plan - i will be training 5 days per week.
Based on work & Business committments my training days and paces look like this.

Monday - Recovery (10.30 minute per mile)
Tuesday - Easy (9.30 minute per mile)
Thursday - Easy (9.30 minute per mile)
Saturday - MP (8.30 minute per mile) or Easy (9.30 per mile)
Sunday - LSR (9.30 minute per mile)

Just wondering if the above pace's look correct for a 3.45 marathon goal.
3.45 Pace is approx 8.36 according to mcmillan. Will run MP every second or so week according to the Intermediate Plan. LSR & Easy runs approx MP +1 and Recovery MP +2.

Does this seem ok?

Thanks

kilbrook

Started running Jan 2011 and did the DCM in 4:25. Looking at my stats this year, I am averaging 08:05 - 08:20 per mile on my runs and doing 30+ miles per week. I am aiming for a Sub 4 this year as all I wanted to do was complete it last year. On Saturday, my LSR was a 10 miler with an avg of 08:25 per mile. This was quite comfortable. My question is should I be aiming higher or just running slower on my longer runs. Still deciding on a training plan but veering to the P+D one.

macinalli

kilbrook wrote: »

My question is should I be aiming higher or just running slower on my longer runs. Still deciding on a training plan but veering to the P+D one.

Sounds like you've a great base for your marathon training and could well have improved a lot on last year. Are you planning on any races? If you could find a half marathon in the next month or so it would give you a much better idea of what your target paces should be

kilbrook

macinalli wrote: »

Sounds like you've a great base for your marathon training and could well have improved a lot on last year. Are you planning on any races? If you could find a half marathon in the next month or so it would give you a much better idea of what your target paces should be

Just the race series for now and possinly the Parkwest 10K next week.

bonaparte2

I ran DCM last year in 3.5x,everything went well for me on the day despite a very limited training programme. I am going to run it again this year.My goal is to get under 3.30 so I qualify for Boston in 2014 . As much under 3.30 as possible to guarantee entry.
I should be able to do it according to that McMillan running calculator, on my times up to ten miles.
I'll be asking the odd dumb question over the next few months.
I was going to ask if it was possible to run Longford and run Dublin well eight weeks later. Even to use Longford as a Long Slow Run?.
But reading my words, thats crazy. A marathon is a one shot race, another shot in spring if Dublin does not work out.
Anyone else running Long Races apart from those designed to fit in with Marathon Plans?

Present state, 5k 20mins
10 miles 70 mins

present mileage 15-20 miles a week.

Injuries -bunion pain and arch soreness, steady since last year
minor irritation.
Have never run without an injury, would feel strange if I did

brian_russ

Isnt the qualifying time for Boston 3.10. This year the heat there was cruel apparently and a lot of people didnt take part even though they had race numbers. So there might be a bit of confusion as to the amount of people they are letting in for next year.

alanking

Heres a good website with training plans and lots of other advice. A bit different than HH.
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/128.shtml

Personally, I use Runners World (UK Site) as I can download then straight to my Garmin and the Garmin Training Center. (also has other training plans).
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/general/big-marathon-index/7355.html

Hoping for 3:25 this year. Got injured at mile 17 last year and limped home in 4:05.

bonaparte2

brian_russ wrote: »

Isnt the qualifying time for Boston 3.10. This year the heat there was cruel apparently and a lot of people didnt take part even though they had race numbers. So there might be a bit of confusion as to the amount of people they are letting in for next year.

Thankfully they make allowances for the elderly.

50-54 3hrs 30min 00sec

mr.wiggle

Hi Gang,
I'm looking forward to chatting with you all on this thread. I'm signing up to TDCM , as my second marathon, The Cork City Marathon, was my first and I really got a great buzz out of completing it. Like the rest of ye, I was looking around for a plan to suit my needs, I do 12hr shift work, alternating between days and nights, and was finding the midweek runs hard to fit in.
I came across a plan suitable for me , here
http://www.runrepublic.ie/training/marathon.htm.
Being fit..ish and having run a couple of 1/2M's and 10 milers, I went for the
Sub3.30 plan.
I jumped in at week 7 of this plan,after being asked by several seasoned marathon boardsies 'what plan was I on?' , and really enjoyed it.
Listening(reading) to the running chat , i used http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/site/calculator
to calculate my training pace for each of the different runs.
My finishing time was 3.23 flat , and I was blown away by that.
I was absolutely shattered crossing the line, no 'hands up and smiling running to the line' for me :pac:
So i'm hoping for more of the same in October, hopefully better prepared!

Good luck to all of us and hope I haven't repeated too much of whats gone before !:P

Mr.W.

mr.wiggle

bonaparte2 wrote: »

I ran DCM last year in 3.5x,everything went well for me on the day despite a very limited training programme. I am going to run it again this year.My goal is to get under 3.30 so I qualify for Boston in 2014 . As much under 3.30 as possible to guarantee entry.

10 miles 70 mins

Hi b,
Going by my time of 71.30 for the mallow 10, you should (comfortably :pac:)
get under 3.30 ! (Finger crossed, etc...)

beeduybe

Starting the P&D 18 week plan up to 55 miles next week.

Should I know my planned marathon pace by the time I do the marathon pace run in the second week? I'm not 100% sure of what time I should aim for at the moment. Sub 3:30 is the aim but if training goes well maybe 3:25 or 3:20 might be within reach. Basically what I'm asking is would it be advisable to alter your planned marathon pace in the middle of the plan or are you losing the value of the MP runs by running at a faster pace on race day?

menoscemo

beeduybe wrote: »

Starting the P&D 18 week plan up to 55 miles next week.

Should I know my planned marathon pace by the time I do the marathon pace run in the second week? I'm not 100% sure of what time I should aim for at the moment. Sub 3:30 is the aim but if training goes well maybe 3:25 or 3:20 might be within reach. Basically what I'm asking is would it be advisable to alter your planned marathon pace in the middle of the plan or are you losing the value of the MP runs by running at a faster pace on race day?

Definitely start at the lower end. MP miles are all about the effort level. I think it should be called MP effort. Once 8 min/mile starts to feel too easy then you can run the MP a bit faster, so maybe by the end of the plan you will be running MP closer to 7:40/mile and be able to confidently go for a faster time.

RedRunner

After just one run in last 15 days due to heavy work committments, business trip abroad and Euro 2012, managed to get out tonight for 5 mile run. A little faster than MP but felt remarkably comfortable (despite a very sore throat) after the beer, lack of food discipline and even the demon smokes( tend to fall into this trap after a few bevvies!Must knock that on the head) over last couple of weeks.
Going for 3,5MP and 8LSR for rest of week before plan next week.
Will be trying the HH Inter 1 plan starting next week on my way to hopefully a sub4 hrs DCM.

As of today weighing in at 16 st 4lbs( Was 15 st 7lbs at start of last years DCM) so need to lose a few on the way to starting line.

Will keep you all posted on my progress

Red Belly

Last two weeks have been mixed. Got over an episode of shinsplints that derailed me for the previous two weeks and have got back to running for the last two weeks of my half marathon training programme but lots of old niggling injuries have been flaring up. This is fairly typical for me and everything seems to be on my left side (hip, hamstring, knee, calf and foot, always somewhere along the sciatic nerve).

My target half is on Sunday and the plan all along had been to go for a PB, take a couple of easy weeks and then start into a marathon training programme for Dublin. In August I planned to do another local half but then I would be aiming to get as close to exactly 2 hours as I possibly can without any taper just to see how it felt and gauge my readiness for a sub 4 in Dublin.

With the niggling problems over the last few weeks I'm now in a state of self-doubt and confusion:

Option 1: Scrub Sunday's race. Keep doing easy runs and bike rides for a couple of weeks and letting the "injuries" settle down.

Option 2: Do Sunday's race but without any target time, just run easy and by feel.

Option 3: Do Sunday's race and go for it (my current PB is 1:53:08).

Option 4: Do Sunday's race and aim for 2 hours and see how that feels. If I can do a 2 hour half with a few niggly issues in June then that will be a huge confidence boost for a sub 4 in October.

Options 1 and 2 are clearly the most sensible bit I'm far more likely to go for Option 3. I suppose that if, after a few miles I'm struggling badly, I can revert to option 4 or 3 as long as I haven't injured myself out of the race!

rb

Younganne

Red Belly wrote: »

Last two weeks have been mixed. Got over an episode of shinsplints that derailed me for the previous two weeks and have got back to running for the last two weeks of my half marathon training programme but lots of old niggling injuries have been flaring up. This is fairly typical for me and everything seems to be on my left side (hip, hamstring, knee, calf and foot, always somewhere along the sciatic nerve).

My target half is on Sunday and the plan all along had been to go for a PB, take a couple of easy weeks and then start into a marathon training programme for Dublin. In August I planned to do another local half but then I would be aiming to get as close to exactly 2 hours as I possibly can without any taper just to see how it felt and gauge my readiness for a sub 4 in Dublin.

With the niggling problems over the last few weeks I'm now in a state of self-doubt and confusion:

Option 1: Scrub Sunday's race. Keep doing easy runs and bike rides for a couple of weeks and letting the "injuries" settle down.

Option 2: Do Sunday's race but without any target time, just run easy and by feel.

Option 3: Do Sunday's race and go for it (my current PB is 1:53:08).

Option 4: Do Sunday's race and aim for 2 hours and see how that feels. If I can do a 2 hour half with a few niggly issues in June then that will be a huge confidence boost for a sub 4 in October.

Options 1 and 2 are clearly the most sensible bit I'm far more likely to go for Option 3. I suppose that if, after a few miles I'm struggling badly, I can revert to option 4 or 3 as long as I haven't injured myself out of the race!

rb

If you want to do Dublin in Oct, why risk injury now for one race...you have an 18 weeks program to get through and the main aim is to get through it and to the start line uninjured.

As regards Half Marathon and Marathon times as far as i know the most realistic way to calculate is your half marathon time x 2 + 10%..therefore without the 18 week plan as your PB stands (1.53.08 would point to 248mins = 4hrs 08)..but with training you could definitely get sub 4!!

Mind yourself and get yourself to 100% fitness if you want to tackle DM2012!

Clearlier

Red Belly wrote: »

Last two weeks have been mixed. Got over an episode of shinsplints that derailed me for the previous two weeks and have got back to running for the last two weeks of my half marathon training programme but lots of old niggling injuries have been flaring up. This is fairly typical for me and everything seems to be on my left side (hip, hamstring, knee, calf and foot, always somewhere along the sciatic nerve).

My target half is on Sunday and the plan all along had been to go for a PB, take a couple of easy weeks and then start into a marathon training programme for Dublin. In August I planned to do another local half but then I would be aiming to get as close to exactly 2 hours as I possibly can without any taper just to see how it felt and gauge my readiness for a sub 4 in Dublin.

With the niggling problems over the last few weeks I'm now in a state of self-doubt and confusion:

Option 1: Scrub Sunday's race. Keep doing easy runs and bike rides for a couple of weeks and letting the "injuries" settle down.

Option 2: Do Sunday's race but without any target time, just run easy and by feel.

Option 3: Do Sunday's race and go for it (my current PB is 1:53:08).

Option 4: Do Sunday's race and aim for 2 hours and see how that feels. If I can do a 2 hour half with a few niggly issues in June then that will be a huge confidence boost for a sub 4 in October.

Options 1 and 2 are clearly the most sensible bit I'm far more likely to go for Option 3. I suppose that if, after a few miles I'm struggling badly, I can revert to option 4 or 3 as long as I haven't injured myself out of the race!

rb

I'd modify option 1 to include seeing a physio and/or personal trainer who can help you find the source of your injuries. If they're all down one side they may be linked and there may be a relatively easy fix for them.

RedRunner

RedRunner wrote: »

After just one run in last 15 days due to heavy work committments, business trip abroad and Euro 2012, managed to get out tonight for 5 mile run. A little faster than MP but felt remarkably comfortable (despite a very sore throat) after the beer, lack of food discipline and even the demon smokes( tend to fall into this trap after a few bevvies!Must knock that on the head) over last couple of weeks.
Going for 3,5MP and 8LSR for rest of week before plan next week.
Will be trying the HH Inter 1 plan starting next week on my way to hopefully a sub4 hrs DCM.

As of today weighing in at 16 st 4lbs( Was 15 st 7lbs at start of last years DCM) so need to lose a few on the way to starting line.

Will keep you all posted on my progress

Best laid plans an all that. The sore throat I had, developed into something more and had to take day off work. Probably just viral so haven't ventured to doc yet. Just have to rest up now and hope I'll be ok to begin plan on Monday !

RedRunner

Hi,

Could do with a bit of advice. After only two runs in tha last two weeks and starting the HHInter1 on Monday, would tackling the Clontarf Half on July 7 be a bad idea. I have a good enough of a base to do it alright but the plan has a 5m run that day followed by 9LSR on Sunday. If I switch the Saturday and Sunday and use the Half for my long run for the week do you think that would be feasible? Or should I forget about squeezing it in and just stick to the plan?

I had got up to 12 miles 3 wks ago for LSR so confident I can do the distance at this time but don't want do anything silly for the sake of getting another race under the belt? Wouldn't be planning to do it fast or anything, just test myself on how I feel doing PMP.

Cheers

Micilin Muc

RedRunner wrote: »

Hi,

Could do with a bit of advice. After only two runs in tha last two weeks and starting the HHInter1 on Monday, would tackling the Clontarf Half on July 7 be a bad idea. I have a good enough of a base to do it alright but the plan has a 5m run that day followed by 9LSR on Sunday. If I switch the Saturday and Sunday and use the Half for my long run for the week do you think that would be feasible? Or should I forget about squeezing it in and just stick to the plan?

I had got up to 12 miles 3 wks ago for LSR so confident I can do the distance at this time but don't want do anything silly for the sake of getting another race under the belt? Wouldn't be planning to do it fast or anything, just test myself on how I feel doing PMP.

Cheers

I would do the Half on the Saturday and take a rest on Sunday. As long as you don't go too hard I think you should be fine.