Season 2 Episode 7 - *HAVE READ THE BOOKS/SPOILERS

Son0vagun

Great episode. The writers are handling the story very well. I'm enjoying the deviations from the book, especially Jons Snows. "You know Nothing Jon Snow".

Great to see Jamie have something to do at long last!

A 9/10 epsoide for me!

LilMsss

I am loving this episode, I just hate having to wait a whole week for the next one!

MitchKoobski

Loved seeing Jamie again in this episode.

Found the reveal at the end kinda horrifying even though I knew it was coming. Half my fun for the week will be seeing people's reactions.

OctavarIan

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Loved seeing Jamie again in this episode.

Found the reveal at the end kinda horrifying even though I knew it was coming. Half my fun for the week will be seeing people's reactions.

Yeah the ending was pretty powerful, I hope they leave that plotline hanging (:pac:) until next season now.

jebidiah

Yeah that was a bit shocking alright! They don't hold back in this show one bit!

Enjoyable episode. But I'm not pleased with daenys stuff

Johnny Bitte

Great episode, ending was horrifying!

Can't believe there's only 3 episodes left.

mariebeth

Great episode! I was really looking forward to the scene between Jamie & Cat, but it's too soon! It was meant to be after she found out about Bran & Rickon.

Other than that, brilliant episode. The scene between Tyrion & Cersei was one of my favourites, when she's crying & Tyrion just looks as if he doesn't know whether to console or, laugh at her or give out to her.

Frisbee

Really didn't like it.

The Jon+Ygritte stuff dragged on waaaaaay too long and went too far off course from the books.

Daenerys just spends every episode screaming out random combinations of the words TRUST, DRAGONS, HAVE WHAT IS MINE, STORMBORN, QUEEN, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Despite only being in this episode for 2 minutes Tyrion yet again was far and away the best part. Tywin and Aryas scene was good too.

Really hoping the Blackwater episode is amazing because at this stage I'm starting to get kinda disappointed with each passing week.

titan18

That was probably the weakest episode so far. Daenarys is getting even more annoying than she was in the books. Jon's arc seems to be going too far off course, not exactly sure how they're going to do him and Qhorin, and it means nothing at this stage since they don't know each other. It also makes no sense for him to be lost for so long since he has a direwolf to help him.

The Arya and Tywin scenes whilst fun to watch, make no sense. There's no way Tywin would leave her do that, or even not guess she's a Stark.

Even the Tyrion and Cersei scene, Cersei pretty much hates him after he ships Myrcella off and the whole I'll turn your joy to ashes etc has already happened. I don't really see them sitting down having a heart-to-heart.

The Bran-Rickon thing now seems stupid as most non-book readers seemed to have guessed it wasn't them

The Jaime scene was a bit weird as the lead up is absolutely perfect, and him reminiscing about Barristan, the Kingswood and the Knight he wanted to be, only to then kill Alton (Jaime may be crazy at that point, but he wouldn't have done that) and then to make an attempted escape that would never have worked.

Also, got to think of the things that have been left out that we know is important at this stage. Tyrion's Chain and Jon and Sam finding the Dragonglass being the most important exclusions

Ambient Occlusion

I forgot how much I don't pity Reek.

(I know he didn't kill the kids, but after I read the chapter I had to put the book down for a month, The stigma never left his name for me.)

Sleepy

Loved the Tywin and Arya scene, not sure what they're doing with Jon's story arc at this point, surely they're not going to leave out the "Is your sword sharp Jon Snow?" bit?

pinkypinky

I just peeked at the "haven't read the books" thread - most are not buying it being Bran and Rickon.

Massive plot divergence this week. My friend and I were thinking though, if anyone's storyline can be changed, it is Dany's. All the stuff in Westoros is too intertwined. She just meanders around for ages collecting slaves and hangers-on waiting for her dragons to grow. At first I thought lots would happen with her and eagerly awaited each of her chapters but I got tired quickly of nothing much happening - though hopefully she'll get somewhere in the new book.

Conchir

I'm not really sure about this season so far, and this episode is annoying me the most.

While I liked some parts, such as Tywin and Arya's scene, I think Jon's arc is just changing too much. How on earth will he get back to Qhorin now, or will he even.

Frisbee

titan18 wrote: »

That was probably the weakest episode so far. Daenarys is getting even more annoying than she was in the books. Jon's arc seems to be going too far off course, not exactly sure how they're going to do him and Qhorin, and it means nothing at this stage since they don't know each other. It also makes no sense for him to be lost for so long since he has a direwolf to help him.

Conchir wrote: »

I think Jon's arc is just changing too much. How on earth will he get back to Qhorin now, or will he even.

Aside from Danys moany head this is what is annoying me the most. I was really looking forward to the idea of Jon and Qhorin hoofing it across the mountains being chase by the wildlings. And as you say, if Jon hardly knows Qhorin at this point then when he has to kill him it really will mean sweet fuck all.

titan18 wrote: »

It also makes no sense for him to be lost for so long since he has a direwolf to help him.

I kept thinking this too, surely Ghost would have tracked him down by now.

titan18 wrote: »

Also, got to think of the things that have been left out that we know is important at this stage. Tyrion's Chain and Jon and Sam finding the Dragonglass being the most important exclusions

I mentioned it before but, imo, they're not mentioning that so it will come as a surprise and everyone will have a big wankathon over how smart and what a legend Tyrion is.

jebidiah

One thing that is annoying me is that they leave in direct quotes from the book (such as Cersi's bit about Robert going hunting during her labour) and yet they change things drastically which do not need to be changed. It wasn't neasecary for the attempted eacape, wasted screen time. Jon an E-grit is also pretty pointless. The original idea was far better

Crucifix

jebidiah wrote: »

direct quotes from the book (such as Cersi's bit about Robert going hunting during her labour)

anyone else notice the my lord/m'lord bit? was in ADWD between two different characters

Ambient Occlusion

Crucifix wrote: »

anyone else notice the my lord/m'lord bit? was in ADWD between two different characters

Reek wasn't it?
I looked in the other thread and I'm wondering if they really copped the ending that quickly without 'influence'. Was it that easy to see?

backinexile

Reek wasn't it?

Yes I think it was when Roose Bolton was talking to him????

I looked in the other thread and I'm wondering if they really copped the ending that quickly without 'influence'. Was it that easy to see?

Was too obvious with them being at the farm and next having the two dead bodies, considering that when it happened in the book I was left speechless I thought they could have left it as a more of a cliff hanger

Sleepy

My other half figured it out instantly. I think they definitely put in too many hints that it was the orphan boys tbh.

Mr Freeze

Sleepy wrote: »

My other half figured it out instantly. I think they definitely put in too many hints that it was the orphan boys tbh.

Ya its wasn't the shocker I was hoping for. I was stunned when reading that in the books, ya there was hints too, but I still thought they were dead.

My GF aint seen it yet, but it won't fool her.

Have to say, loving Ygritte! I liked her in the books, but I think the show is doing a great job with her, I think she is even more likable now.

Dunno where they are going with the deviation from the book though with her and Jon Snow, looks like they meet Rattleshirt next week, how is that gonna work without The Halfhand and him ordering Jon to turn cloak?

Crucifix

A lot of stuff happens "off screen" in the books, so it didn't seem unbelievable that two important characters would die "off screen". It was always going to be harder to sell that in the tv show, but they made it really really obvious.

podgemonster

Although it was a solid and eventful episode alot of the changes in it have annoyed me. Namely that it is the grief of Bran and Rickons deaths that result in Catelyn releasing the Kingslayer and Robb breaking his marriage vow to the Freys with yer wan.

Now it seems that these 2 actions will happen without their catalyst which will makes the character appear more foolish rather than acting out of grief. Also i assme that the cousin Jaime clobbered is simply a renamed Cleos Frey whom was killed while escorting Jaime home. Jaimes murder of him was (while entertaining) out of character but I feel the show seem to want people to hate him when in fact his motivations in alot of his previous actions are arguably just (apart from firing Bran out of a window).

Jons 2 episode stint with Ygritte also doesn't seem to work, they could easily have had the same important dialogue with the Halfhand & co present while begin persued by Wildlings, instead he gets convienently lost and they then aimless wander into Wildling terroritory. My concern here is when Jon has to face the Halfhand in battle their relationship won't be what it was in the book.

Theon stint at Winterfeel is enjoyable though most non-readers havnt bought the murders, thanks too Rickons obvious line about the Orphan boys. I really love how bleak winterfell looks since its takeover and Alfie Allen is doing well protraying a character who is trying to appear domineering, vicious and intelligent when really he is out of his depth.

Some Altercations are good. I do welcome the changes to Danys story, her role in ACOK needed a bit of spice and they delivered somewhat. Also Arya and Twyins dialogue is riveting, Dance's presence on screen is emmense and gives the viewers some backstory. I assuming the soup scene and Northmen takeover won't occur and Ayra will simple escape with Gentry in the last episode.

Rubbing my hands in anticipation for the Battle of Blackwater. Won't be long now!

Johnny Bitte

podgemonster wrote: »

Rubbing my hands in anticipation for the Battle of Blackwater. Won't be long now!

But will we get to see any of it or will it just be:

Tyrion:"Unleashed the.....

.
.
.

Tyrion:

"Wheres my nose??"

Sleepy

Apparently a sizable chunk of this season's budget is used in the Blackwater episode which was written by GRRM himself.

whitewave

found this episode a bit slow to be honest. Dany was one of my favourite characters in the books, and in the first series, but she seriously needs to give the shouting about the dragons a rest.

I'm a bit sketchy on details from the books sometimes, but have they veered slightly off story with Jon/Ygritte? I thought Quorin Halfhand was with him when he got caught by the wildlings?

(Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!)

podgemonster

whitewave wrote: »

I'm a bit sketchy on details from the books sometimes, but have they veered slightly off story with Jon/Ygritte? I thought Quorin Halfhand was with him when he got caught by the wildlings?

(Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!)

I think Quorin and Jon were always together. Jon releases Ygritte in the book and the Crows carry on but realise that they are being followed by a large group of Wildlings. One crow holds them off with arrows as the Jon and the Halfhand continue but are eventually caught by Rattleshirt. Ygritte vouces for Jon but nonetheless Rattleshirt insists he kill Halfhand to become one of them. From there on Ygritte and Jon spend time together and much of the dialogue we have seen so far in the show occurs.

Feel free to correct me also....

Mr Freeze

podgemonster wrote: »

I think Quorin and Jon were always together. Jon releases Ygritte in the book and the Crows carry on but realise that they are being followed by a large group of Wildlings.

Crows! you big Wilding you! :pac:

ixoy

Was I alone in going "Wuhoo!" when Jon was finally told "you know nothing Jon Snow".

Mr Freeze

ixoy wrote: »

Was I alone in going "Wuhoo!" when Jon was finally told "you know nothing Jon Snow".

I didn't go Wuhoo, but I thought it was great! But it will be best kept to a minimum now I think, she says it 2 or 3 times a chapter in the books!

Owryan

The Arya/Tywin scenes are the standouts in the season so far .

I personally think a lot of the re writing and diverging from the books is simply to reduce the number of character/names for people to remember.

Very unsure of how the Jon/Ygritte plot will work now and can only assume the wildlings who captured him also capture halfhand and force Jon to kill him to prove he has turned, but his speeches to Ygritte about "wearing the black" surely show he isnt easily swayed !!! Mind you Ygritte(esp her filthy mouth) .

Roose Bolton is getting more screentime so maybe his big move isnt v far off ?

OctavarIan

Owryan wrote: »

The Arya/Tywin scenes are the standouts in the season so far.

I absolutely love the Arya/Tywin scenes, but I'm beginning to fear they're starting to build up too much rapport. Arya in the books goes through a hellish time in Harrenhal which really changes her character, while in the TV show so far it has been relatively comfortable for her.

This bit is really bothering me:

Now people are going to think Sandor ratted her out! :mad:
I haven't had any problems with the deviations from the books so far, but this was not a good call on the show's part. It's like they've suddenly realised how much they've neglected Sandor's character and are trying to shove him in wherever they can so people know who he is when he shows up in Blackwater

PhiloCypher

The more I read the "Have read the books" threads the more relieved I am that I've only read the books through the once, remembering just enough to get excited about upcoming events but not enough to drain every bit of enjoyment of the series whenever there is the slightest deviation from the novels.

ixoy

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The more I read the "Have read the books" threads the more relieved I am that I've only read the books through the once, remembering just enough to get excited about upcoming events but not enough to drain every bit of enjoyment of the series whenever there is the slightest deviation from the novels.

Agreed. When I see people getting irate about whether someone was putting their armour on or taking it off in a scene, I'm glad that I don't remember enough to care about the particulars but do recall enough to enjoy the ride and some of the events to come. The destination will ultimately be the same and some of the detours might work for the better.

PhiloCypher

ixoy wrote: »

Agreed. When I see people getting irate about whether someone was putting their armour on or taking it off in a scene, I'm glad that I don't remember enough to care about the particulars but do recall enough to enjoy the ride and some of the events to come. The destination will ultimately be the same and some of the detours might work for the better.

Agreed people seemed to be getting bent out of shape over things like Oona Chaplins characters name not being Jeyne Westerling, when in the novels, as best I can remember them she is a nothing characters whose sole narrative purpose is to have Rob fall in love with her and thus break his vow to Walder Frey, so really as long as that actually happens who cares what her name is .

Johnny Bitte

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Agreed people seemed to be getting bent out of shape over things like Oona Chaplins characters name not being Jeyne Westerling, when in the novels, as best I can remember them she is a nothing characters whose sole narrative purpose is to have Rob fall in love with her and thus break his vow to Walder Frey, so really as long as that actually happens who cares what her name is .

Yes, but why was it necessary to change the character at all is the point I believe most were making.

There seems to be some changes that apparently just arent necessary and could have remained the same as the book.

But in saying that were probably necessary to simplify things for the tv audeinace. Like being able to show Rob build a connection with the new character rather than have him give it up for a night of horniness

I think this season has gone a fair bit away from the books in some good and bad ways but the are doing a great job getting it onto our screens imo.

Mr Freeze

Johnny Bitte wrote: »

I think this season has gone a fair bit away from the books in some good and bad ways but the are doing a great job getting it onto our screens imo.

Hard to argue with that statement.

We just have to enjoy it for what it is, I think some of the complaints must be down to Season one being extremely faithful to the book, while Season two isn't as much & we were probably expecting it to be as faithful.

Anyways, I am still glued to the show, and watch the episodes a couple of times.

As a side note, I can't wait to see Mance Rayder and Tormund Giantsbane (at some stage). Now I will warn ye early, I will be p1ssed if they cut Tormund out, har!!!!!!

DarkDusk

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The more I read the "Have read the books" threads the more relieved I am that I've only read the books through the once, remembering just enough to get excited about upcoming events but not enough to drain every bit of enjoyment of the series whenever there is the slightest deviation from the novels.

Again, I can't agree more with what you have said. Fortunately, I experienced a number of surprises in this season because I've also read it only once and forgotten some aspects of the story. I'm so glad now that I didn't re-read it before it started. On the other hand, I'm looking forward to re-reading ACOK again after the season is over.

In contrast to what I did in season 1, I am preferring this season much more. I only heard about GoT when the series started airing last year, so I decided to pick up the book and read the chapters in respect to their episodes (can't remember which website gave me the list), which meant that I read x chapters and watched the episode and so on. This technique wasn't nearly as enjoyable as the way I approached this season, and I'm glad I gave it up - it was more like a comparative study (like the leaving cert!).:eek:

Anyway, very pleased with the season so far, can't complain with any of the changes they've made, imo it has improved the show for me. Roll on episode 8...:)

titan18

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Agreed people seemed to be getting bent out of shape over things like Oona Chaplins characters name not being Jeyne Westerling, when in the novels, as best I can remember them she is a nothing characters whose sole narrative purpose is to have Rob fall in love with her and thus break his vow to Walder Frey, so really as long as that actually happens who cares what her name is .

Rather important actually, if she was some lowborn girl, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important

Manning3000

I am really enjoying Season two so far,

There are big changes from the book some pointless some required,
daenys story needed something for acok i like what they are doing, although different it will still have the same result(hopefully) she is starting to iritate me though.

I am loving the Tywin Arya scenes so so entertaining,

Jons arc can be rescued as someone said earlier hopefully halfhand has been caught they spend the next 2 episodes as prisoners together where they get to know each other and either they escape and the "is your blade sharp jon" line is uttered or Mance asks him to prove himself, either way I think he will kill halfhand at some point otherwise why introduce halfhand,

They did make bran and rickon very obvious but still it is well done,

I am actually loving it sad there is only 3 episodes left,

"You Know Nothing Jon Snow" probably my favourite line book and series.

thehairyone

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Agreed people seemed to be getting bent out of shape over things like Oona Chaplins characters name not being Jeyne Westerling, when in the novels, as best I can remember them she is a nothing characters whose sole narrative purpose is to have Rob fall in love with her and thus break his vow to Walder Frey, so really as long as that actually happens who cares what her name is .

Its been a while since I read the books but as the story progresses we learn more about Jeyne and especially her family. We learn that Jeynes Grandmother on her mothers side was some kind of foreign woods witch. We hear rumours of this craft being passed down the line. We learn that Jeynes mother gives Jeyne a drink every month to help her conceive a child with Robb. Jeyne never gets pregnant. From what ive read its implied that Jeynes mother/father were conspiring with Tywin Lannister to stop an heir to Robb being conceived/born, that this drink that Jeynes mother is giving Jeyne is in fact a "pill" of some sort. It doesnt appear that Jeyne is in on the plot at all. I think this facet will be missed out on the TV show which is a shame because it shows just how conniving Tywin Lannister can be, I dont think that has been adequately shown so far.

Mr Freeze

thehairyone wrote: »

Its been a while since I read the books but as the story progresses we learn more about Jeyne and especially her family. We learn that Jeynes Grandmother on her mothers side was some kind of foreign woods witch. We hear rumours of this craft being passed down the line. We learn that Jeynes mother gives Jeyne a drink every month to help her conceive a child with Robb. Jeyne never gets pregnant. From what ive read its implied that Jeynes mother/father were conspiring with Tywin Lannister to stop an heir to Robb being conceived/born, that this drink that Jeynes mother is giving Jeyne is in fact a "pill" of some sort. It doesnt appear that Jeyne is in on the plot at all. I think this facet will be missed out on the TV show which is a shame because it shows just how conniving Tywin Lannister can be, I dont think that has been adequately shown so far.

Well I won't be surprised if they miss that in the TV series, I never even noticed that in the books.

I knew they were trying for an Heir alrite, and I thought she might be pregnant, and then was potentially switched with some one else after the Red Wedding, as Catylnns and Jamies description of the girl were quite different.

This Jeyne discussion is probably a topic for another thread no doubt. GRRM has a great deal of people losing their identities and pretending to be other people in the books that for sure.

thehairyone

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Well I won't be surprised if they miss that in the TV series, I never even noticed that in the books.

I knew they were trying for an Heir alrite, and I thought she might be pregnant, and then was potentially switched with some one else after the Red Wedding, as Catylnns and Jamies description of the girl were quite different.

This Jeyne discussion is probably a topic for another thread no doubt. GRRM has a great deal of people losing their identities and pretending to be other people in the books that for sure.

From what I remember Jeyne never went to the red wedding, I cant remember the reason behind not going, I think it was so as not to upset the Freys by rubbing it in their faces. Not sure whos idea it was though, whether it was Catelyns or Jeynes mother. Jeynes brother was Robbs squire so I think he went, not sure who else from the Westerling family went. I dont think its been made clear in the books if they survived or not. Dont remember Jeynes description being different or even thought there might have been a switch. Can anyone clear this up?

titan18

thehairyone wrote: »

From what I remember Jeyne never went to the red wedding, I cant remember the reason behind not going, I think it was so as not to upset the Freys by rubbing it in their faces. Not sure whos idea it was though, whether it was Catelyns or Jeynes mother. Jeynes brother was Robbs squire so I think he went, not sure who else from the Westerling family went. I dont think its been made clear in the books if they survived or not. Dont remember Jeynes description being different or even thought there might have been a switch. Can anyone clear this up?

Theory is that when the Blackfish got away, he smuggled Jeyne away with him and that she might be pregnant with Robbs heir. I think the only Westerling who went though was Robbs squire

thehairyone

titan18 wrote: »

Theory is that when the Blackfish got away, he smuggled Jeyne away with him and that she might be pregnant with Robbs heir. I think the only Westerling who went though was Robbs squire

Just after checking the wiki of ice and fire. Robbs squire (Jeynes youngest brother) stayed at riverrun during the red wedding. Jeynes older brother went with Robb and was the one who released Greywind, he is presumed dead. Jeyne was given a pardon by the iron throne after the red wedding and was to be wed to a lannister lord or heir after a period of 2 years to ensure she was not pregnant with Robbs child. It also mention the switching theory explained above, something I missed in the book.

johnnyskeleton

thehairyone wrote: »

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Agreed people seemed to be getting bent out of shape over things like Oona Chaplins characters name not being Jeyne Westerling, when in the novels, as best I can remember them she is a nothing characters whose sole narrative purpose is to have Rob fall in love with her and thus break his vow to Walder Frey, so really as long as that actually happens who cares what her name is .

Its been a while since I read the books but as the story progresses we learn more about Jeyne and especially her family. We learn that Jeynes Grandmother on her mothers side was some kind of foreign woods witch. We hear rumours of this craft being passed down the line. We learn that Jeynes mother gives Jeyne a drink every month to help her conceive a child with Robb. Jeyne never gets pregnant. From what ive read its implied that Jeynes mother/father were conspiring with Tywin Lannister to stop an heir to Robb being conceived/born, that this drink that Jeynes mother is giving Jeyne is in fact a "pill" of some sort. It doesnt appear that Jeyne is in on the plot at all. I think this facet will be missed out on the TV show which is a shame because it shows just how conniving Tywin Lannister can be, I dont think that has been adequately shown so far.

I suspect she will turn out to be Jeyne westerling and the whole volanti thing is a ruse.

Sleepy

It was "moon tea", a Westerosi abortifactant that Jayne Westerling was being dosed with by her mother in order to ensure she wasn't pregnant with Robb's child after the Red Wedding.

It's also referred to as "Tansy Tea" when Lysa Tully (later Arynn) was forced to take it after sleeping with Littlefinger when she was a young girl.

Richard Dower

pinkypinky wrote: »

I just peeked at the "haven't read the books" thread - most are not buying it being Bran and Rickon.

Massive plot divergence this week. My friend and I were thinking though, if anyone's storyline can be changed, it is Dany's. All the stuff in Westoros is too intertwined. She just meanders around for ages collecting slaves and hangers-on waiting for her dragons to grow. At first I thought lots would happen with her and eagerly awaited each of her chapters but I got tired quickly of nothing much happening - though hopefully she'll get somewhere in the new book.

^ course not!...it's the two orphan boys, obviously :rolleyes:

Tenger

Conchir wrote: »

I'm not really sure about this season so far, and this episode is annoying me the most.

While I liked some parts, such as Tywin and Arya's scene, I think Jon's arc is just changing too much. How on earth will he get back to Qhorin now, or will he even.

(Not watched Ep08 yet)
I think they made the '2 orphans' plot line a bit obvious in the episode. Game of Thrones was the first book I ever had to actually put down after being upset after an event.

The Jon story isn't too bad. He could easily meet Qhorin in wildling captivity and be forced to fight him. Qhorin already provided the 'hook' by asking what his fate would be if captured. HBO have confirmed the Rattleshirt will be a character, so perhaps he makes the Crows fight each other.

I think Jon killing Qhorin is an important point in his story, while Qhorin scoffed at the idea that his death beyond the Wall would make any difference to the 7 Kingdoms, this option silences the cynic in Qhorin. It allows a Crow to infiltrate the court of Mance Rayder

Thargor

OctavarIan wrote: »

I absolutely love the Arya/Tywin scenes, but I'm beginning to fear they're starting to build up too much rapport. Arya in the books goes through a hellish time in Harrenhal which really changes her character, while in the TV show so far it has been relatively comfortable for her.

What happened to Arya in Harrenhl in the books? I don't remember, need to reread them all.

Sleepy

She was a kitchen / cleaning servant and beaten about the place by those in charge of her (which lead one of them to being her first name in the books).