Spaying Poll

BengaLover

Im getting so much conflicting opinions on spaying I thought I would post a poll to get some wider opinions.
Some people are telling me its best to let a bitch have a first heat before spaying - and vets say it doesnt matter..
Any opinions especially regarding behaviour after spaying early (as opposed to letting them have a heat) please?

DamagedTrax

only my opinion and im sure you'll hear 1000 more

physically it makes no differance, mentally i think it does.

i'd personally wait until after first heat.

meoklmrk91

It does make a difference, spaying greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumours, doing so before the first heat reduces it even further. Oh an mammary cancer is the most common cancer seen in bitches.


Here is some info from spay ireland.

Statistics showing the percentage risk of mammary tumours developing in the spayed bitch compared to the intact bitch:

* Neutered prior to first oestrus: 0.05%
* Neutered between first & second oestrus: 8%
* Neutered after second oestrus: 26%
* Neutered after 2.5 years or 4 oestrus cycles: No effect

Therefore, if a bitch is neutered before her first season, she is 2,000 times less likely to develop mammary cancer than if she is left entire until she is three years of age.

bookworms

I waited untill after the first heat with my current dog. She is a Newfoundland/Retriever cross and is quite large. The longer you wait with large breeds the better as the hormones can play a significant part in bone development (or so I have been told) any way, besides the inconvenience with her first and only heat, things are great.

BengaLover

Thats interesting, the health statistics speak for themselves really - can you give me more info about if it makes a difference temperament wise? Someone told me dogs become more receptive to training if spayed after a heat.

x Purple Pawprints x

We always learned in college to do it before the first heat when the animal is about 5-6 months old. As well as reducing risk of developing reproductive cancers, recovery time is reduced the younger the animal is.

Edit: meoklmrk91, very interesting post.

DamagedTrax

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

It does make a difference, spaying greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumours, doing so before the first heat reduces it even further. Oh an mammary cancer is the most common cancer seen in bitches.


Here is some info from spay ireland.

Statistics showing the percentage risk of mammary tumours developing in the spayed bitch compared to the intact bitch:

* Neutered prior to first oestrus: 0.05%
* Neutered between first & second oestrus: 8%
* Neutered after second oestrus: 26%
* Neutered after 2.5 years or 4 oestrus cycles: No effect

Therefore, if a bitch is neutered before her first season, she is 2,000 times less likely to develop mammary cancer than if she is left entire until she is three years of age.

on the opposite side it can affect hormonal balances and growth in certain breeds.

but no matter what OP decides it is important to get her spayed either way.

Incheerocket

with a giant breed, i.e. newfoundland, St Bernard, Dane, Wolfhound, I would wait, however with other breeds I think early is fine, and the opposite is also true I would not leave a giant breed too long as there is slightly more risk with anaesthetic over a certain age.

As far as temprement I can honestly say I have never ever noticed a difference, as far as getting fat is concerned, cut down food. The only difference I have ever noticed is that with my springers their coat can go a bit like cotton wool, all fluffy, I have had labs, terriers, springers, weimaraners and good old mongrels with a bit of this and bit of that, and have for a long time had wolfhounds, All rescues, which is the point, there are way too many dogs in pounds, unloved and unwanted and we need desperately to cut down on unwanted litters.

BengaLover

I have a Viszla - large ish breed.
Spaying is going ahead no matter what, but I was having trouble understanding why people were recommending to let her have a heat. I still cant figure out any benefit to it really. Id personally like it out of the way and done and dusted but if there is a good enough reason to postpone it then Id be open to that.

djflawless

should only be done in the case of health needs.not for the sake of you not wanting pups imo

marijame

djflawless wrote: »

should only be done in the case of health needs.not for the sake of you not wanting pups imo

Sorry can you clarify your post, are you actually saying that not wanting pups is not a good enough reason for spaying? If so I'd imagine there are several rescues who might disagree with you

BengaLover

djflawless wrote: »

should only be done in the case of health needs.not for the sake of you not wanting pups imo

:eek:

djflawless

if you dont want pups maybe you shouldnt have a dog and bitch together.i know theres an endless list of people who would dissagree with me but i stand my ground.i dont agree with bitches just being neutered to suit the owners wants.i treat my bitch as if she were a human.i cant see the logic in stopping her doing what she,and every other living thing was put on the earth to do.reproduce.ive had her 3 years.working her alongside dogs.havnt had a pup out of her yet as i want to breed her when shes 5.pups will be given to people who genuinely want them.if its a case you dont want pups its a simple case of keeping a bitch away from a dog when shes in heat.not rocket science and not impossible

BengaLover

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and you decide whats best for your pet but surely its not fair on a dog to let them have all those unfulfilled urges they cant act on when they get in heat?

Cows Go µ

BengaLover wrote: »

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and you decide whats best for your pet but surely its not fair on a dog to let them have all those unfulfilled urges they cant act on when they get in heat?

It is very unfair on the dogs. I can't wait until I move out again so when my parents girls go in heat, I can take them. At them moment, the boys just whine and stress the entire 3 weeks. I feel so bad for them but there isn't anywhere they can go at the moment that we can afford or trust. When I go, I'll only have my boy who is neutered and has no idea what's going on and why everyone is so stressed. I'll be keeping girls only to keep the stress levels down.

meoklmrk91

BengaLover wrote: »

Thats interesting, the health statistics speak for themselves really - can you give me more info about if it makes a difference temperament wise? Someone told me dogs become more receptive to training if spayed after a heat.

I am training to be a vet nurse and we went through the pros and cons of spaying a neutering. There are many old wives tales, about letting them have a first heat or 1 litter that imho and from what I have learnt from an exceptional tutor are not true. Neutering and spaying has no effect on train-ability to my knowledge anyway. In almost every case spaying is better before the first heat.

The only issue with spaying is urinary incontinence which occurs more often in spayed bitches than unspayed bitches, some studies say that it happens less when the spaying occurs before the first heat others say after so their is still a lot of arguing over that going on. However to me anyway urinary incontinence which can be treated in most cases effectively is far better than malignant mammary tumours.

Sigma Force

Some people mistake a change in behaviour for the dog going through their naughty teenage phase..a lot of people get dogs neutered/spayed around the 6 month mark at a time when dogs are starting to mature and become a little cheeky or when they have a lot of excess energy because of their age.

Spaying/neutering doesn't change their personalities one bit in my experience anyway. I have 3 dogs all are spayed/neutered one was 3 when we got her and spayed straight away one was spayed at 6 months and our youngest was neutered at around 8 months (he's a Papillon and tend to be a bit more delicate he just didn't seem big and strong enough at 6 months so we waited a extra few). Spaying/neutering didn't change any of their personalities and neither did spaying any dog we've had in the past or any cat we've had in the past.

They don't need to go into heat, it's irresponsible esp. with all the dogs and pups in rescue you just have to look at the all the homes needed to see..it's just not worth the risk because people tend to leave things on the long finger and say to themselves ah I must get around to spaying the dog but before they know it the dogs in heat a second time and gets caught out..it's best to nip it in the bud. Unless you are prepared to be a responsible owner and not allow your dog near any other dogs while in heat..lets face it a male dog will do anything to get into the garden of a female in heat so is it really worth the risk.

lorebringer

I will always (try to) spay before the bitches first heat (unless they are being bred - ethically and responsibly - from), with smaller dogs this is about the 6/7 month mark and with bigger dogs the 9+ month mark. I personally think the pros outweigh the cons of spaying before their first heat.

There is no difference between a bitch that has been spayed and one that has not been in terms of behaviour, training etc. As Sigma Force pointed out, most bitches (all dogs really) will go through the "teenage" stage and they can be right brats - spaying neither helps nor hinders this stage, or any stage of the dogs life.

I would not have a bitch as a pet that was not spayed (unless there was some exceptional reason of course), it's risky (even the best owners dogs can get out, or a male get in, and it only takes one time - feel like a fecking condom ad! ) and leaving them intact has no real benefit over spaying them.

TooManyDogs

I have 4 bitches, 2 were spayed after their first heat and 2 spayed before their first heat and I've never seen a difference in how receptive they were to training, I think that's an old wives tale.

Personally I'd get them done before their first heat unless they are giant breeds, I believe large/giant dogs can develope incontinence after spay ops and spaying between 12 - 18 months reduces this. Also have come across the link between bone development and hormones so would wait for any dog to be more physically mature before spay/neuter but small/medium dogs mature much quicker.

I had also heard (have no proof to validity) that years ago vets suggested waiting for a first heat or have a litter because it was far easier to see the uterus after it had swelled for heat, that it never goes back as tiny as it is before the first heat. It was also added that equipment wasn't as good and vets were mainly male with large hands so found it fiddly to spay a female before the uterus had swelled. Again no idea if this is an old wives tale!

DBB

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Here is some info from spay ireland.

Statistics showing the percentage risk of mammary tumours developing in the spayed bitch compared to the intact bitch:

* Neutered prior to first oestrus: 0.05%
* Neutered between first & second oestrus: 8%
* Neutered after second oestrus: 26%
* Neutered after 2.5 years or 4 oestrus cycles: No effect

Therefore, if a bitch is neutered before her first season, she is 2,000 times less likely to develop mammary cancer than if she is left entire until she is three years of age.

Can I ask you to clarify here, because these percentages mean nothing unless we also know what the original baseline risk of developing mammary cancer is.
What do these percentages mean? 0.05% of what? 8% of what?
Not trying to have a go at you here, and I am an advocate of neutering, but it irks me the way Spay Week Ireland, and others, put up these figures to presumably scare people, when in fact, without a baseline risk, the figures mean nowt.
I haven't time now to go looking up papers, but it is my understanding that the risk of mammary cancer is actually very small, and this 26% greater risk actually represents 26 times a tremendously small number. In other words, even though the risk is greater, it still remains a tiny risk.
The fact that they say there's no risk after the 4th heat or 2.5yrs jars somewhat too... Makes no sense to me, but maybe I'll find something in the literature that explains it! Or maybe someone here can?

As for whether it can negatively affect behaviour, yes it can. If a nervous female is neutered early in life, there is quite a significant chance that neutering will increase aggression in the dog as an adult. Again, no time to go looking for papers, but I will link them if people want.
Personally, I'm in no rush to castrate or spay my own dogs any more. There's not a chance they'll procreate, and until a lot more is known about the long-term health effects of early neutering, I'll let the dog grow and mature in body and mind before neutering.

meoklmrk91

DBB wrote: »

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Here is some info from spay ireland.

Statistics showing the percentage risk of mammary tumours developing in the spayed bitch compared to the intact bitch:

* Neutered prior to first oestrus: 0.05%
* Neutered between first & second oestrus: 8%
* Neutered after second oestrus: 26%
* Neutered after 2.5 years or 4 oestrus cycles: No effect

Therefore, if a bitch is neutered before her first season, she is 2,000 times less likely to develop mammary cancer than if she is left entire until she is three years of age.

Can I ask you to clarify here, because these percentages mean nothing unless we also know what the original baseline risk of developing mammary cancer is.
What do these percentages mean? 0.05% of what? 8% of what?
Not trying to have a go at you here, and I am an advocate of neutering, but it irks me the way Spay Week Ireland, and others, put up these figures to presumably scare people, when in fact, without a baseline risk, the figures mean nowt.
I haven't time now to go looking up papers, but it is my understanding that the risk of mammary cancer is actually very small, and this 26% greater risk actually represents 26 times a tremendously small number. In other words, even though the risk is greater, it still remains a tiny risk.
The fact that they say there's no risk after the 4th heat or 2.5yrs jars somewhat too... Makes no sense to me, but maybe I'll find something in the literature that explains it! Or maybe someone here can?

As for whether it can negatively affect behaviour, yes it can. If a nervous female is neutered early in life, there is quite a significant chance that neutering will increase aggression in the dog as an adult. Again, no time to go looking for papers, but I will link them if people want.
Personally, I'm in no rush to castrate or spay my own dogs any more. There's not a chance they'll procreate, and until a lot more is known about the long-term health effects of early neutering, I'll let the dog grow and mature in body and mind before neutering.

Apologies my fault for leaving it out
* Mammary cancer is the most common type of cancer in the bitch (52% of all tumours)
* Around 50% of mammary tumours are malignant

0.5% means that 0.5% of bitches spayed before the first heat will get mammary tumours

8% means that 8% of those spayed after first heat will get mammary tumours and so on.

And spayed after 4 heats well those bitches will have the same chance of getting mammary tumours as unspayed bitches. It is basically pointing out that from the point of view of mammary tumours it is best to spay as early as possible. Hope that clears it up.

Cherry Blossom

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Apologies my fault for leaving it out
* Mammary cancer is the most common type of cancer in the bitch (52% of all tumours)
* Around 50% of mammary tumours are malignant

0.5% means that 0.5% of bitches spayed before the first heat will get mammary tumours

8% means that 8% of those spayed after first heat will get mammary tumours and so on.

And spayed after 4 heats well those bitches will have the same chance of getting mammary tumours as unspayed bitches. It is basically pointing out that from the point of view of mammary tumours it is best to spay as early as possible. Hope that clears it up.

That's not what it means at all I'm afraid 0.5% means 0.5% of the risk that an intact dog has of developing mammary tumours. The risk of intact bitches getting mammary tumours is not 100%, it's 0.26% ie. 1 dog in every 400. 50-60% of those tumours are cancerous according to the link below which means 1 to 1.2 in 800 intact bitches get mammary cancer.

That information has been seriously misconstrued from here:

http://webs.dogs.net.au/kazkiri/uploads/documents/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Some more links:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109002330500064X

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.1990.tb00701.x/abstract

Buddinplant

I got my terrier spayed before her first heat, for a number of reasons but the main ones being, we had a male already and i was not prepared for the patter of tiny nails on the wooden floor (and he wasnt done, fathers dog, 'wouldn't be fair on the dog' etc)

Vet did ask if i wanted to hold out for the first heat, but i was like 'Whip it out!'

shes four now, and as far as health wise, shes never been sick. a little aggressive but i blame the father for that too... spoiling her beyond all reason.