‘Undernourished’ child collapses in Cork

Solair

I'd just point out a few things:

1) Social welfare claims are now taking an extraordinary amount of time to process. So, if you've been made unemployed suddenly, or your business has folded and you've no other sources of income or savings, you can be VERY badly stuck while the Department of Social Protection bureaucracy ticks away.

2) There is no regulation of how debt collection works in Ireland from what I can see. Banks, credit card issuers, and utility companies can be ridiculously heavy handed about collections and some people can also be complete push overs and end up making loan payments instead of buying food.

I have come across a few crazy situations where creditors were demanding (with faux-legal threats) that families paid more money than they could actually afford to pay to the point that they were running out of food. They didn't seem to realise that you have to be able to feed yourself and your family with basic food before you start paying anything else.

People have no idea how to prioritize outgoings and there seems to be little / no regulation of how debt collectors are allowed to operate. In the UK banks are obliged to go through payment plans and household budgets to ensure that they are not starving families.

In any household the priorities are :

1) Food 2) Rent/Mortgage to avoid eviction 3) Basic heat, light, water, bins 4) non-secured loans / other debts.

You do not starve your kids to pay the credit card company or money that you owe to the gas company etc. However, with serious pressure put on by aggressive collection departments without regulation, you end up driving people to doing that.

You also have to remember that people who get into these situations are often quite poor at dealing with banks, creditors and finance and bully-boy tactics can sometimes result in really terrible situations from starving kids to suicide.

We have a major debt crisis in Ireland and we need to start putting some laws and services in place to manage our way out of it. Not everyone's as able to tell a bank to feck off as your typical brass-necked former property developer.

3) There are crazy and stupid extra costs in Ireland that other countries do not have e.g. requirements to have school uniforms / school-branded sports gear. That should be just abolished.
I was listening to people on local radio here in Cork going on about the cost of some of those school-crested items and they are absolutely ridiculous.
The school's there to provide an education, not to enforce some kind of Victorian military-style dress code on people.
Same goes for the school book industry here. The cost of books is just too high and there does not appear to be any kind of serious scheme to spread those payments over a year or to re-use books or buy them through the school somehow.

samina

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Maybe not but add in broccoli, apples, carrots, parsnip and pears all @ 65c each (€3.90), 2 sliced pans at @ 85c (€1.70), 1kg Mince (€3.69), 4 homemade burgers (€2.89), 4 chicken kievs (€3.90), BBQ chicken thighs and drumsticks (€1.99), 10 eggs (€1.85). Throw in some milk, cornflakes and you've more than enough food to keep the two of them going and you've spent a grand total of €25. There's no excuse for any child to go
Other bills don't come into it when your child is starving. You put food in your childs belly before you pay anything else out.

You my friend have no idea about the real world. Anyone who has or has had a seven year old knows that there are times when they are constantly hungry. Your little shopping trip there would feed the mother and her child for 3 or 4 days at the most. ( then they are back to empty presses again. If they have breakfast, lunch, dinner and maybe a small supper So the chold wouldnt go to bed hungry. You have included nothing in there that can be taken to school for the child's lunch (which he will need a lunch box and bag to carry) except for dry bread as you have no butter or jam on there. Not to mention essentials like soap or toothpaste etc. The reason they eat so much is beacause they are growing so therefore they need clothes which I suppose in your books are a luxury. Cant send a child to school naked. And what is the point of all the shopping if they have no home to eat it in or no way of cooking it or keeping the food frozen because apparently gas or electricity is not a necessity to you.

golden lane

samina wrote: »

You my friend have no idea about the real world. Anyone who has or has had a seven year old knows that there are times when they are constantly hungry. Your little shopping trip there would feed the mother and her child for 3 or 4 days at the most. ( then they are back to empty presses again. If they have breakfast, lunch, dinner and maybe a small supper So the chold wouldnt go to bed hungry. You have included nothing in there that can be taken to school for the child's lunch (which he will need a lunch box and bag to carry) except for dry bread as you have no butter or jam on there. Not to mention essentials like soap or toothpaste etc. The reason they eat so much is beacause they are growing so therefore they need clothes which I suppose in your books are a luxury. Cant send a child to school naked. And what is the point of all the shopping if they have no home to eat it in or no way of cooking it or keeping the food frozen because apparently gas or electricity is not a necessity to you.

you forgot the monile phones, the bigb telly, the computer and internet, and the electronic games.........

samina

golden lane wrote: »

you forgot the monile phones, the bigb telly, the computer and internet, and the electronic games.........

Yes that was very entertaining. but I'm talking about a 7 year old and the cost of keeping them alive and well.

Jogathon

geeky wrote: »

I'd normally be dead set against the dole-bashing brigade, but it's funny how contact with the kids in this situation makes you go very 'right wing' (I'd prefer to say 'interventionist) on this issue.

In the case of one kid I've worked with, his mum was pulling in between €25k and €30k in SW benefits (it's complicated circumstances, there's one payment I'm not 100% sure she's still getting). She has serious addiction problems, and he still didn't get breakfast, or regular dinner as far as we can tell. The school sorts out lunch. Still, one of his classmates eats out of the bin - teachers have told the kids not to laugh at him.

I don't think it's a radically right wing thing to say that giving an addict 30k a year to put up their nose ain't the smartest approach to social policy.


SW payments are generous in this country, and rightly so because the cost of living is so high. But there's no control about where the money goes, and precious little appetite for social services to intervene in cases of negligence.

I'm with you Geeky. We had a fainter in school last week too. He had a slice of crust for his lunch that day and no breakfast. We called in his mum, she started giving out to him for not having made a sandwich. He said there was nothing in the fridge, she told him to shut up. Needless to say, we'll be keeping a record of his lunches. We also had to do that for another child before. Lunches improved but the child still looks undernourished. We can't ever be certain, but we try to keep an eye on certain children that we are concerned about. I'm more right-wing now than I ever was before!

Shryke

54kroc wrote: »

You'll upset our dole monkeys saying things like that.

Excuse me?

Gmol

This should be interesting am getting 2 boxes of popcorn

Jogathon

hondasam wrote: »

severely undernourished is neglect no matter how you look at it. How come the teachers had not noticed it before this.
I don't know the parents circumstances but there is no excuse for this tbh.
Reading the mail today about Greece and a mother who had to give her children away because she could not afford to feed them is sad. Social welfare here is very high compared to Greece.

We keep a close eye on all children who we are concerned about. I have kept exact lists of what certain children are bringing in for lunch. It's a very hidden thing and it's very hard to spot. And please remember that no teacher will allow a child to stay hungry. I've often buttered bread from my own loaf to give certain children something to eat. But it is not my job to feed a child their breakfast or their dinner...so how can we say for sure??

golden lane

samina wrote: »

Yes that was very entertaining. but I'm talking about a 7 year old and the cost of keeping them alive and well.

it wasn't meant to be entertaining......i live in the uk....and that is classed as essentials....

Born to Die

54kroc wrote: »

You'll upset our dole monkeys saying things like that.

Wumming is frowned upon.

hondasam

Jogathon wrote: »

We keep a close eye on all children who we are concerned about. I have kept exact lists of what certain children are bringing in for lunch. It's a very hidden thing and it's very hard to spot. And please remember that no teacher will allow a child to stay hungry. I've often buttered bread from my own loaf to give certain children something to eat. But it is not my job to feed a child their breakfast or their dinner...so how can we say for sure??

That is a cop out imo.
This child was severely undernourished,this did not happen overnight, this child was starving. The problem here is no one wants to be responsible it's pass the blame all the time.
sorry not having a go at you personally.

conorhal

geeky wrote: »

I'd normally be dead set against the dole-bashing brigade, but it's funny how contact with the kids in this situation makes you go very 'right wing' (I'd prefer to say 'interventionist) on this issue.

In the case of one kid I've worked with, his mum was pulling in between €25k and €30k in SW benefits (it's complicated circumstances, there's one payment I'm not 100% sure she's still getting). She has serious addiction problems, and he still didn't get breakfast, or regular dinner as far as we can tell. The school sorts out lunch. Still, one of his classmates eats out of the bin - teachers have told the kids not to laugh at him.

I don't think it's a radically right wing thing to say that giving an addict 30k a year to put up their nose ain't the smartest approach to social policy.

SW payments are generous in this country, and rightly so because the cost of living is so high. But there's no control about where the money goes, and precious little appetite for social services to intervene in cases of negligence.

All of this is sadly true, by mum's best friend is a public health nurse (retired last year) and was talking about this exact scenario only a few weeks ago.
According to her, children with malnutrition are not that uncommon and in every single case that she has come across, without exception, the root cause is a parent with addiction issues (drugs or alcohol). She simply could not understand how a social worker could walk into a house with a drunk/high parent and an empty fridge/child and that child would not be immediately removed from their parents.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

There are so many gobsh!tes posting on this forum it beggars belief.

The immediate reaction is to attack the people on the dole, as irresponsible wasters without even a hint of a back story on this case.
Does anyone know if the mother of this child is healthy, has she mental health issues that have not been treated. Is she another statistic that has been over looked by the Health services of this country.

The holier than thou attitude from people posting here makes me sick, people that should be thankful each day that their circumstances allow them to live reasonably well, whether financially, physically and emotionally.

I have for a period raised a child on my own on SW and it is very difficult, the slightest outlay of money that you haven't budgeted for can send you into a spiral of struggling for weeks or months. Outside of that the emotional stress is difficult but I was lucky that I had an extended family around me to help.
This poor woman may not have this.

Take a second and think before you attack, it's the human thing to do. Your keyboard isn't going anywhere.

ok , but YOU have no back story , or proof to back up your ASSUMPTIONS,
also do you not think your stance is holier than thou attitude ASSUMING that the dole bashes are incorrect without proof ?
you are just as bad as the gob****es you are giving out about ,
but lets not let the use of facts stop a rant in AH

this poor woman may be doing everything right - but then again she may be a dutch gold swilling f2ck pig - every chance she is either

so i would advice you to use your own advice and not jump to unprovable conclusions , and take a second before you attack

and as you said you know people including yourself who survived on the dole and feed the children with no problem - would it not be fair to assume that something else is going on her - and that something else MAY involve fags and dutch gold - but i would not say - i have no proof

but your attack on people making this assumption is pointless in the extreme, seeing you are doing the VERY SAME THING

Born to Die

dj jarvis wrote: »

seeing you are doing the VERY SAME THING

Read my post again.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

Read my post again.

oh i have read it - same conclusion , should i read further back ? am i missing something you said earlier , not being smart at all , but i dont see what your getting at

im making a comment on your post - am i incorrect ?

Born to Die

Born to Die wrote: »

Assumptions do not equal facts.

dj jarvis wrote: »

oh i have read it - same conclusion , should i read further back ? am i missing something you said earlier , not being smart at all , but i dont see what your getting at

im making a comment on your post - am i incorrect ?

See above from a different post.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

See above.

but your post that im making comment on is FULL of assumptions ,
hence my post - not understanding what your not getting

your doing the very same thing your post is giving out about , and i highlighted it

problem ?


here , read it again

Originally Posted by Born to Die View Post
There are so many gobsh!tes posting on this forum it beggars belief.

The immediate reaction is to attack the people on the dole, as irresponsible wasters without even a hint of a back story on this case.
Does anyone know if the mother of this child is healthy, has she mental health issues that have not been treated. Is she another statistic that has been over looked by the Health services of this country.

The holier than thou attitude from people posting here makes me sick, people that should be thankful each day that their circumstances allow them to live reasonably well, whether financially, physically and emotionally.

I have for a period raised a child on my own on SW and it is very difficult, the slightest outlay of money that you haven't budgeted for can send you into a spiral of struggling for weeks or months. Outside of that the emotional stress is difficult but I was lucky that I had an extended family around me to help.
This poor woman may not have this.

Take a second and think before you attack, it's the human thing to do. Your keyboard isn't going anywhere.

what are you not getting ? i see lots of un provable assumptions , this is why i pointed it out

johngalway

These threads really bring out the degenerates on this site in force.

Hope it stays fine for ye.

Born to Die

dj jarvis wrote: »

but your post that im making comment on is FULL of assumptions ,
hence my post - not understanding what your not getting

your doing the very same thing your post is giving out about , and i highlighted it

problem ?

I stand by my post.

Icepick

Born to Die wrote: »

I have for a period raised a child on my own on SW and it is very difficult

And it should be very difficult if you and the father don't do enough to contribute.

hondasam

johngalway wrote: »

These threads really bring out the degenerates on this site in force.

Hope it stays fine for ye.

Is there any justifiable reason why this child is starving ?
The mother has to take the blame and others who know about it as well.

Micky Dolenz

How does a child that is severely malnourished slip through the net and is only discovered after they collapse. the school has some questions to answer here also.

They too have a duty of care to the children under their care.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

I stand by my post.

thats fine , im sure whomever reads it will also make their own assumptions

to me reading it , it a hypocritical post - but sure, that might just be me

Born to Die

Icepick wrote: »

And it should be very difficult if you and the father don't do enough to contribute.

I am the father, but I can see why you would automatically assume otherwise.

Single father's exist.

golden lane

Born to Die wrote: »

I am the father, but I can see why you would automatically assume otherwise.

Single father's exist.

i wish you the best of luck......be proud

hondasam

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

How does a child that is severely malnourished slip through the net and is only discovered after they collapse. the school has some questions to answer here also.

They too have a duty of care to the children under their care.

My point as well, if the child is severely malnourished then it's obvious they are starving and teachers should have reported it.
Of course it might have been reported and social services could be involved all ready.

Born to Die

dj jarvis wrote: »

thats fine , im sure whomever reads it will also make their own assumptions

to me reading it , it a hypocritical post - but sure, that might just be me

I am sure if you read it again and note the important small words that make it clear and definitely not an assumption, it will read differently.

I don't believe it is anyway hypocritical.

Latchy

Whatever the circumstances ,situation or reasons behind it , it's shocking to hear of children collapsing in school due to undernourisment .

johngalway

hondasam wrote: »

severely undernourished is neglect

I don't know the parents circumstances

How about you find out before passing judgement.

hondasam

johngalway wrote: »

How about you find out before passing judgement.

It's still neglect regardless of their circumstances imo.

johngalway

hondasam wrote: »

It's still neglect regardless of their circumstances imo.

I'll take that as you won't be bothering to find out then so.

Micky Dolenz

johngalway wrote: »

How about you find out before passing judgement.

Whats there to find out? The child is starving to death. this doesn't happen over night, this is systematic abuse over a long time.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

I am sure if you read it again and note the important small words that make it clear and definitely not an assumption, it will read differently.

I don't believe it is anyway hypocritical.

yea , well there ya go - as well as being a hypocrite your a smart arse ,
the 2 normally go hand in hand
i could go back and highlight your post, but i could not be arsed , its in black and white for all to see

you slated some posters for making broad assumptions and go and do the very same thing in your post - this makes you a hypocrite

just move on - learn from this experience

johngalway

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Whats there to find out? The child is starving to death. this doesn't happen over night, this is systematic abuse over a long time.

It's right up there a few posts in black type in English.

hondasam

johngalway wrote: »

I'll take that as you won't be bothering to find out then so.

There is no excuse for this type of neglect imo. how am I to find out the parents circumstances?

johngalway wrote: »

It's right up there a few posts in black type in English.

Great myself and Micky have to read the thread again to see what we missed.

Born to Die

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea , well there ya go - as well as being a hypocrite your a smart arse ,
the 2 normally go hand in hand
i could go back and highlight your post, but i could not be arsed , its in black and white for all to see

you slated some posters for making broad assumptions and go and do the very same thing in your post - this makes you a hypocrite

just move on - learn from this experience

I am not getting into a tit for tat with you. Get someone to read my post and explain it to you.

I don't care what you think of me, but hold back on the insults, there is no need for it. Again I stand by my post.

zara100

CJC999 wrote: »

The mother is getting €140 a month in child benefit. That alone is enough to feed the child properly for the month. The child has been neglected.

have to agree its odd that the mother didnt collapse from hunger i would make sure my child was fed before myself if things were that bad

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

I am not getting into a tit for tat with you. Get someone to read my post and explain it to you.

I don't care what you think of me, but hold back on the insults, there is no need for it. Again I stand by my post.

here you go
I am sure if you read it again and note the important small words that make it clear and definitely not an assumption, it will read differently.

i did not start throwing insults - you did
i can read , and this is how i pointed out that your post is hypocritical

so you start slating people for getting at this mother with no proof , but you do the VERY SAME thing , now i understand what hypocritical means and in what context - maybe you should brush up on it meaning also,

and as my old mammy always said " nobody likes a smart arse "
enjoy your evening

johngalway

hondasam wrote: »

There is no excuse for this type of neglect imo. how am I to find out the parents circumstances?

You're proving the point, in your opinion, which isn't based in knowing the facts of the people involved.

alphanine

Lets increase the dole so we can go bankrupt quicker. The quicker we default, the quicker we can go about recovery.*



*Greater risk of hungry people about in the interim.

Born to Die

dj jarvis wrote: »

here you go
I am sure if you read it again and note the important small words that make it clear and definitely not an assumption, it will read differently.

i did not start throwing insults - you did
i can read , and this is how i pointed out that your post is hypocritical

so you start slating people for getting at this mother with no proof , but you do the VERY SAME thing , now i understand what hypocritical means and in what context - maybe you should brush up on it meaning also,

and as my old mammy always said " nobody likes a smart arse "
enjoy your evening

Thanks very much, I am going for a game of football. Should be a bit of craic.
Say hi to your Mammy for me. Have a good evening also. Tis lovely out.

golden lane

malnutrition.......in ireland in 2012.......somebody is not doing their duty........there is no excuse.......just reasons that don't add up.

Micky Dolenz

dj jarvis wrote: »

here you go
I am sure if you read it again and note the important small words that make it clear and definitely not an assumption, it will read differently.

i did not start throwing insults - you did
i can read , and this is how i pointed out that your post is hypocritical

so you start slating people for getting at this mother with no proof , but you do the VERY SAME thing , now i understand what hypocritical means and in what context - maybe you should brush up on it meaning also,

and as my old mammy always said " nobody likes a smart arse "
enjoy your evening

Born to Die wrote: »

Thanks very much, I am going for a game of football. Should be a bit of craic.
Say hi to your Mammy for me. Have a good evening also. Tis lovely out.

Mod

Lads, no need for the bitching, so please stop.

hondasam

johngalway wrote: »

You're proving the point, in your opinion, which isn't based in knowing the facts of the people involved.

What facts could possibly explain why this child is starving? you do know what Neglect is right?

Micky Dolenz

johngalway wrote: »

It's right up there a few posts in black type in English.

I'm not calling for heads, yet. The facts are the child is starving to death. There will be mitigating circumstances but it in no way changes the fact that the kid is starving to death.

Whether or not the abuser/s of the child are aware of the abuse simply doesn't change anything, I.E the child is still being abused.

Bannasidhe

zara100 wrote: »

have to agree its odd that the mother didnt collapse from hunger i would make sure my child was fed before myself if things were that bad

How do you know the mother is not also malnourished? How do you know she hasn't been skipping meals to feed the child before herself?

Adults can survive a lot longer then small children without proper nourishment. For growing children good, wholesome, food is vital to fuel their growth. Lack of proper sustenance will manifest far more quickly in a child then in an adult.

The point is - we know nothing about this woman's circumstances apart from the fact that she is an SW claimant and had no food, or money to buy any, the day before her payment was due.

Do people really think this is an isolated case? Do people think there are not families out there (not all of them on SW) who just cannot make their income stretch any more? Families whose money runs out before dole/pay day?

It's so easy to dismiss this as a case of neglect - oh, it's just a bad mother - and move on. It is so much harder to admit that there are people in our country who simply cannot make ends meet and as a consequence we have children going hungry. In Ireland. In 2012.
Are they all the result of neglect or do some families really know what it is to live with true austerity?

suicide_circus

I dont know how people are claiming its not neglect?!!
If your child is not getting enough food you go to the sv de p for help or you go out and ****ing steal food, you dont just go "ah well, no food for you my lad"
Social welfare payments in this country are CERTAINLY sufficient to feed a child, to claim otherwise ia frankly ridiculous.

suicide_circus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's so easy to dismiss this as a case of neglect - oh, it's just a bad mother - and move on. It is so much harder to admit that there are people in our country who simply cannot make ends meet and as a consequence we have children going hungry. In Ireland. In 2012.
Are they all the result of neglect or do some families really know what it is to live with true austerity?

Ok. So social welfare payments are too low. What do you suggest? More tax?

hondasam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The point is - we know nothing about this woman's circumstances apart from the fact that she is an SW claimant and had no food, or money to buy any, the day before her payment was due.

Do people really think this is an isolated case? Do people think there are not families out there (not all of them on SW) who just cannot make their income stretch any more? Families whose money runs out before dole/pay day?

The fact is the child is severely malnourished, this did not happen from skipping one or two dinners, it's going on over a period of time.
This is neglect no matter how anyone tries to justify it, it's still neglect.
If she got SW then she had the means to buy food for the child.

gerryo777

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No it's not you bell-end.

No child needs to go hungry in this country. We have a mixed economy of welfare in this country that ensures children will not go hungry for need of food.

The child was probably being neglected.

Yea, great comment.

Sure it's like noonan said last week about 'no soup kitchens in Ireland'.

The people who go to soup kitchens are just scroungers, aren't they?

Irish people have a lot of pride, maybe that's why we don't see exactly what's happening all the time.