‘Undernourished’ child collapses in Cork

Bannasidhe

hondasam wrote: »

The fact is the child is severely malnourished, this did not happen from skipping one or two dinners, it's going on over a period of time.
This is neglect no matter how anyone tries to justify it, it's still neglect.
If she got SW then she had the means to buy food for the child.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

This woman is being judged and condemned as a bad mother who neglects her child without any of her circumstances being known.

I, for one, am not comfortable with the undercurrent of pitchfork waving and rabble rabble pontificating about and judging of someone we know so little about.

If, and I do mean IF, does turn out to be a case of neglect - I will cease and desist. Until such time, I will continue to point out that there is no evidence to suggest that is is not another in the growing list of those who are trying to exist below the poverty line in Ireland.

If people have a problem with that - so be it.

dj jarvis

Born to Die wrote: »

Thanks very much, I am going for a game of football. Should be a bit of craic.
Say hi to your Mammy for me. Have a good evening also. Tis lovely out.

Bannasidhe

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ok. So social welfare payments are too low. What do you suggest? More tax?

Where did I say this?
Perhaps SW rates are right and the cost of living is too damn high.

hondasam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

This woman is being judged and condemned as a bad mother who neglects her child without any of her circumstances being known.

I, for one, am not comfortable with the undercurrent of pitchfork waving and rabble rabble pontificating about and judging of someone we know so little about.

If, and I do mean IF, does turn out to be a case of neglect - I will cease and desist. Until such time, I will continue to point out that there is no evidence to suggest that is is not another in the growing list of those who are trying to exist below the poverty line in Ireland.

If people have a problem with that - so be it.

Are you saying people on SW are existing below the poverty line? I find this hard to believe.
I don't know why this child is starving but I know there is no good reason to explain it except neglect by the parents, family and teachers.

Chuck Stone

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If, and I do mean IF, does turn out to be a case of neglect - I will cease and desist.

If/when it is proven to be neglect it doesn't mean that the pitch fork crew 'win' or you 'lose'.

It's not as if this debate is a zero sum game.

Fwiw if it is proven to be neglect then the carer will need protection from the pitch fork crew.

planetX

No way, there's something else going on here, that's just ridiculous. You might not be able to pay your electricity, we don't always have heating here, but there's no question of going without food. It's either wilful neglect or she has a mental problem.

Logical Fallacy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ok. So social welfare payments are too low. What do you suggest? More tax?

As a hypothetical, if social welfare payments are too low you aggressively attack and analyse the system, plug the holes and find the fraudsters, stop being claiming what they are not entitled too.

It gives more money to spread between the genuine cases that need the help.

It's like the HSE. During the boom times the tactic was to throw money at it, because the money was there, now we have wards closing and all kinds of problems.

More money rarely fixes an issue, using the available funds for the right things is a better method.

B0 SELECTRA

I blame the Teachers should they not notice this ?

Would have been easy for a Teacher to make a few sandwich

We dont know if the Mother is at fault.

Logical Fallacy

B0 SELECTRA wrote: »

I blame the Teachers should they not notice this ?

Would have been easy for a Teacher to make a few sandwich

We dont know if the Mother is at fault.

So you blame the teachers , then point out you don't know if it's the mothers fault.

Fair enough.

As for the teachers spotting it, what do you think the signs they should have been looking out for are?

Undernourishment is an odd beast and doesn't have many physical manifestations that would be visible to the naked eye.

hondasam

B0 SELECTRA wrote: »

I blame the Teachers should they not notice this ?

Would have been easy for a Teacher to make a few sandwich

We dont know if the Mother is at fault.

You blame the teachers but not the mother who is living with the child and who is supposed to be looking out for her child.
The child needed more than a sandwich once a day. The teachers should have noticed something and reported it.

ShamoBuc

B0 SELECTRA wrote: »

I blame the Teachers should they not notice this ?

Would have been easy for a Teacher to make a few sandwich

We dont know if the Mother is at fault.

So, you don't know if the mother of the child is at fault:eek: so it's the teachers fault...seriously? You expect the teachers to make children sandwiches? Do you expect your childs teacher to feed them or educate them?

Logical Fallacy

hondasam wrote: »

The teachers should have noticed something and reported it.

Noticed what though?

Chances are the only thing a teacher might spot is that the child has no lunch...but then you have to consider the size of the class, the school, where the kids eat lunch and under what supervision etc.

People seem to be operating on the idea that there is some huge glowing sign over a child who is not eating enough when normally there isn't.

They might look a little thin, but lots of healthy kids look a little thin. They might be a little tired, but that could be down to any number of reasons as well.

cloud493

If the kid was that undernourished, would he not have been entitled to a free school dinner or something?

Wibbs

ShamoBuc wrote: »

You expect the teachers to make children sandwiches?

Teachers are getting enough stick these day without adding cannibalism to the list.

Chucky the tree

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do people really think this is an isolated case? Do people think there are not families out there (not all of them on SW) who just cannot make their income stretch any more? Families whose money runs out before dole/pay day?

It's so easy to dismiss this as a case of neglect - oh, it's just a bad mother - and move on. It is so much harder to admit that there are people in our country who simply cannot make ends meet and as a consequence we have children going hungry. In Ireland. In 2012.
Are they all the result of neglect or do some families really know what it is to live with true austerity?

Yes I think this is an isolated case or a case of neglect. I honestly can't see how someone can blitz through €235 a week and not feed there child properly for a long time without there either being a major case of neglect or serious mental health issues of the mother. Either way the child should be taken off her so it can looked after properly.

hondasam

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Noticed what though?

Chances are the only thing a teacher might spot is that the child has no lunch...but then you have to consider the size of the class, the school, where the kids eat lunch and under what supervision etc.

People seem to be operating on the idea that there is some huge glowing sign over a child who is not eating enough when normally there isn't.

They might look a little thin, but lots of healthy kids look a little thin. They might be a little tired, but that could be down to any number of reasons as well.

I know what you are saying but the child had to be on the thin fragile side, I know some kids are skinny little things but still there has to be some tell tale signs of starvation.
As for the lunch it might be the only thing the child was eating so this might not have been an issue I suppose for the teachers.

cloud493 wrote: »

If the kid was that undernourished, would he not have been entitled to a free school dinner or something?

Do they have school dinners here?

Chuck Stone

gerryo777 wrote: »

Yea, great comment.

Sure it's like noonan said last week about 'no soup kitchens in Ireland'.

The people who go to soup kitchens are just scroungers, aren't they?

Irish people have a lot of pride, maybe that's why we don't see exactly what's happening all the time.

Sorry but I think you might be confusing me with a mindless 'fuck-the-poor' nut job who swallows large spoonful's of gullible flavoured right-wing propaganda.

Scanlas The 2nd

stupidusername wrote: »

Obviously the situation needs to be investigated but sure everyone is going to jump to conclusions about the mother/parents,and her spending habits. Oh sure you know loads of people who survive fine on the money that they get so why can't she. She must be busy buying expensive jewellery for herself,smoking and drinking it all away.

Though it would be funny (not haha funny) if that was to turn out to be the case.

Until the facts are known,this is a non story.

For future reference use one of bizarre, unusual or strange instead of funny (not haha funny).

cloud493

hondasam wrote: »

I know what you are saying but the child had to be on the thin fragile side, I know some kids are skinny little things but still there has to be some tell tale signs of starvation.
As for the lunch it might be the only thing the child was eating so this might not have been an issue I suppose for the teachers.



Do they have school dinners here?

Here being? School I went to gave free chicken rolls/dinner to kids who couldn't afford it, pre arranged with the parents.

grizzly

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Noticed what though?

Chances are the only thing a teacher might spot is that the child has no lunch...but then you have to consider the size of the class, the school, where the kids eat lunch and under what supervision etc.

People seem to be operating on the idea that there is some huge glowing sign over a child who is not eating enough when normally there isn't.

They might look a little thin, but lots of healthy kids look a little thin. They might be a little tired, but that could be down to any number of reasons as well.

Very true. Think of models – I'm sure many of them are very poorly nourished.

stupidusername

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

For future reference use one of bizarre, unusual or strange instead of funny (not haha funny).

Am, no.

hondasam

cloud493 wrote: »

Here being? School I went to gave free chicken rolls/dinner to kids who couldn't afford it, pre arranged with the parents.

Ireland of course. I did not know there was school dinners here.

LETHAL LADY

This is a very sad story, the poor child.:(

Out of interest, does anybody know who a teacher would approach about their concerns regarding a childs wellbeing. I would imagine that the school has to raise their concerns firstly with the parent or is there proceedures that can override this.

Our local primary school offers a healthy eating initiative for €12 a month maybe this is the way to go with all schools.

kowloon

Dravokivich wrote: »

Spuds alone a stable diet does not make...

You would expect that's one lesson we had learnt in this country.

fasttalkerchat

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

im not saying all people on the dole drink and smoke their money away but if the child is starving then there is definitely something up.

i know plenty of people on welfare that have children and they manage to keep their kids fed.

If its a single parent family with debts and a mortgage and no support from family it is possible.

Bannasidhe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes I think this is an isolated case or a case of neglect. I honestly can't see how someone can blitz through €235 a week and not feed there child properly for a long time without there either being a major case of neglect or serious mental health issues of the mother. Either way the child should be taken off her so it can looked after properly.

Looked after properly? By who exactly??? The HSE who can't even supply accurate figures for the number of children who died in their care????

Chucky the tree

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Looked after properly? By who exactly??? The HSE who can't even supply accurate figures for the number of children who died in their care????

Try Foster parents who adoption. Better than just leaving her to starve to death.

hondasam

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

This is a very sad story, the poor child.:(

Out of interest, does anybody know who a teacher would approach about their concerns regarding a childs wellbeing. I would imagine that the school has to raise their concerns firstly with the parent or is there proceedures that can override this.

Our local primary school offers a healthy eating initiative for €12 a month maybe this is the way to go with all schools.

I'm sure teachers have contact numbers for social services and they could report it to the gardai.

token101

Doesn't matter what anyone says, no child in this country needs to hungry. Arrest the 'parents' for child neglect. Anyone who chooses to send their child to school malnourished is subhuman and should be treated as such.

Bannasidhe

hondasam wrote: »

I know what you are saying but the child had to be on the thin fragile side, I know some kids are skinny little things but still there has to be some tell tale signs of starvation.
As for the lunch it might be the only thing the child was eating so this might not have been an issue I suppose for the teachers.



Do they have school dinners here?

Note: the following was last updated in 2010 so may have been hit by cutbacks.

School Meals Programme
The School Meals Programme is a separate programme funded by the Department of Social Protection and local authorities. It aims to supplement the diets of school-going children from disadvantaged backgrounds to help them fulfil their potential within the educational system and to reduce the risk of early school leaving. There are two schemes.
The Urban Scheme supports school meals for primary schools in urban areas. This programme consists of daily sandwiches or buns and milk. The scheme is not a replacement for home meals.

The Local Projects Scheme gives funding directly to national and secondary schools, local groups and voluntary organisations, which operate their own school meals projects (the meals may be hot or cold). In 2004 the scheme was extended to nursery schools catering for disadvantaged pre-school children. These meals must be targeted at areas of disadvantage or at children with special needs. Funding is allocated on the basis of a rate per meal per child.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/giving_children_an_even_break_by_tackling_disadvantage.html

So the answer is it depends - on whether the school is in a designated disadvantaged area (RAPID areas) and has the facilities to provide the service and applies successfully for funds. Even then the children get sandwiches or buns - hardly a meal replacement for a growing child.

Bannasidhe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Try Foster parents who adoption. Better than just leaving her to starve to death.

Starving to death? - that's a bit OTT I think. She is malnourished. This could absolutely have serious health implications for the child - physical and mental - but I think to say she is starving to death is hyperbole and unnecessarily emotive.

Bannasidhe

token101 wrote: »

Doesn't matter what anyone says, no child in this country needs to hungry. Arrest the 'parents' for child neglect. Anyone who chooses to send their child to school malnourished is subhuman and should be treated as such.

Sub Human- Are you serious?? :eek:

Right - That's it. I'm out of here. I cannot stomach that level of judgemental. self-righteous, crap by people who have no facts to go on.

Chucky the tree

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Starving to death? - that's a bit OTT I think. She is malnourished. This could absolutely have serious health implications for the child - physical and mental - but I think to say she is starving to death is hyperbole and unnecessarily emotive.

As you said it has serious implications, I suppose technically she mightn't starve to death but her mistreatment could kill her. I don't that is hyperbole.

token101

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sub Human- Are you serious?? :eek:

Right - That's it. I'm out of here. I cannot stomach that level of judgemental. self-righteous, crap by people who have no facts to go on.

This child supposedly collapsed from malnourishment in the one of the most developed countries in the world. It's neglect, pure and simple. Assuming that's true, what other facts do you need? Where does the dole money go? SVP? Other charities? Family? Neighbours? If they had to resort to stealing, which people in this country don't, I would say it's better than this.

The basic thing any human should do is look after their own children. So, yeah, if you choose to send your child starving, that makes you subhuman.

The fact the child was undernourished dosnt mean she was starving to death nor does it mean she wasn't fed ,a poor diet such as just chips and or processed food will make anyone malnourished as the diet need to be varied contain protein carbs etc.
It's patently ridiculous to suggest that the child wasn't fed starvation is different from malnutrition .
They should bring back school dinners poor mite .
And I agree with other posters here until we know the facts I will refrain from passing any comment on the parent in question .
There but for the grace of .... Must be nice to be so perfect !

Chucky the tree

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

The fact the child was undernourished dosnt mean she was starving to death nor does it mean she wasn't fed ,a poor diet such as just chips and or processed food will make anyone malnourished as the diet need to be varied contain protein carbs etc.
It's patently ridiculous to suggest that the child wasn't fed starvation is different from malnutrition .
They should bring back school dinners poor mite .
And I agree with other posters here until we know the facts I will refrain from passing any comment on the parent in question .
There but for the grace of .... Must be nice to be so perfect !

Because not feeding your kid junk food for every meal is perfection. :rolleyes:

hondasam

hondasam wrote: »

The fact is the child is severely malnourished, this did not happen from skipping one or two dinners, it's going on over a period of time.
This is neglect no matter how anyone tries to justify it, it's still neglect.
If she got SW then she had the means to buy food for the child.

Agreed on that, it doesn't happen in a day or two and it was apparently going to be another week until she could afford to buy food. That's over half a month without food, something stinks.

token101

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

The fact the child was undernourished dosnt mean she was starving to death nor does it mean she wasn't fed ,a poor diet such as just chips and or processed food will make anyone malnourished as the diet need to be varied contain protein carbs etc.
It's patently ridiculous to suggest that the child wasn't fed starvation is different from malnutrition .
They should bring back school dinners poor mite .
And I agree with other posters here until we know the facts I will refrain from passing any comment on the parent in question .
There but for the grace of .... Must be nice to be so perfect !

It could be me or my family? Utter sh*te and a total cop out. People just prefer to blame the government, Enda Kenny, Bertie, Brian Cowen, or anyone else other than see the obvious: that some parents are just f*cking sh*t parents. This 'it could be anyone' mentality is absolute rubbish in this country. Might work in a developing country or the States, but not here, not with this welfare state. Pure sh*t. Anyone with any bit of cop on can put the pieces together and realise that this child was neglected in some fashion. Pure and simple. And people saying that people shouldn't 'judge' just fuel the problem even further by refusing to acknowledge that there are seriously unfit parents out there who are not fit to be f*cking breeding.

Child was fed a sh*t diet? Well fruit and vegetables are the cheapest thing in the supermarket and are cheaper than processed sh*te. So she had no money at all? Unlikely, but could be, but if she went to the CWO and said she couldn't afford food they'd give it to her. Same with SVP, Roof, there are countless options in this country. So the parents had a choice. Pride doesn't come into it. They're your kids, you provide. You're responsible. End of story.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

The fact the child was undernourished dosnt mean she was starving to death nor does it mean she wasn't fed ,a poor diet such as just chips and or processed food will make anyone malnourished as the diet need to be varied contain protein carbs etc.
It's patently ridiculous to suggest that the child wasn't fed starvation is different from malnutrition .
They should bring back school dinners poor mite .
And I agree with other posters here until we know the facts I will refrain from passing any comment on the parent in question .
There but for the grace of .... Must be nice to be so perfect !

Because not feeding your kid junk food for every meal is perfection. :rolleyes:

No of course it isn't but I have no evidence she did and neither do you .
Nobody knows why the child was undernourished the fact the woman had no food in her fridge for a while is an indicator that she is struggling but as to why neither you nor I know why .

Getting any child to eat a varied balanced diet is difficult and if money is an issue I am sure very hard.
Malnourishment is not the same as starving . Feeding your kid a bag of spuds a week as some posters have suggested is likely to cause malnourishment in anyone .

Axel Damp Motorist

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

she is struggling but as to why neither you nor I know why .

It's still neglect.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Dan_Solo

While it may be nearly impossible to tell by looking at a kid whether they are starving or not as they come in all shapes and sizes, surely an empty lunchbox is obvious to any teacher with eyes?

Aquila

Aquila wrote: »

That poor child,beggars belief that this is happening in Ireland in 2012

I know someone fostering kids and if you think this is bad you'd be sick with some of the other stuff going on and none of it down to politics or economics.

token101

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

No of course it isn't but I have no evidence she did and neither do you .
Nobody knows why the child was undernourished the fact the woman had no food in her fridge for a while is an indicator that she is struggling but as to why neither you nor I know why .

Getting any child to eat a varied balanced diet is difficult and if money is an issue I am sure very hard.
Malnourishment is not the same as starving . Feeding your kid a bag of spuds a week as some posters have suggested is likely to cause malnourishment in anyone .

FFS, kids still don't collapse even when they're not eating a balanced diet. It just doesn't happen. You can take that from someone who grew up on a diet of mini pizzas and never collapsed. This child was clearly not being fed properly if at all.

micropig

"His comments were backed up by Independent Councillor Mick Finn who works as project worker in 11 southside schools.

“One of those schools operates a breakfast club where they provide a healthy meal in the morning for some pupils. I know a further eight schools are planning on introducing something similar from September.”
“There are social welfare supports available to ensure that children do not go hungry but there could be a variety of situations where that safety net fails,” he said.

“It could be a lack of parenting skills or that money is being spent elsewhere rather than where it should be, on the family necessities,” he said."


Evening Echo's take on things

Chucky the tree

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

No of course it isn't but I have no evidence she did and neither do you .
Nobody knows why the child was undernourished the fact the woman had no food in her fridge for a while is an indicator that she is struggling but as to why neither you nor I know why .

Getting any child to eat a varied balanced diet is difficult and if money is an issue I am sure very hard.
Malnourishment is not the same as starving . Feeding your kid a bag of spuds a week as some posters have suggested is likely to cause malnourishment in anyone .

We do, neglect. A kid who has a good and responsible mother doesn't collapse due to malnourishment. Getting a kid to eat a vary and balanced diet is quite easy actually, probably explains why plenty of parents in Ireland are able to do it. Feeding your kid a bag of spuds along with other foods won't cause your child to be malnourished. Neglecting it or feeding it crap will.

2rkehij30qtza5

Pure and simple neglect. I would rather feed my children than pay bills if that's what it came down to. And the social welfare payment is adequate to cover food for both mother and child. There is no excuse for this child to be undernourished. Feeding your family should be no.1 priority.

Buttonftw

Buttonftw wrote: »

Axel Damp Motorist wrote: »

she is struggling but as to why neither you nor I know why .

It's still neglect.

How do you reach that conclusion ? I have in the past come across children and adults that were malnourished and not from lack of food but that their diet was poor .
The amount of judgement before the facts are known is just wow

token101

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Sorry but I think you might be confusing me with a mindless 'fuck-the-poor' nut job who swallows large spoonful's of gullible flavoured right-wing propaganda.

Right wing? Sure this was the Workers Party presenting this case? This is leftists hoping to incite an 'OMG this is happening because we are bailing out the banks and she had to pay her household charge' reaction. But anyone with any cop on would know that this has nothing to do with any of that, it's just a story of bad parenting, one that's probably fairly common.

Ellis Dee

The problem is that there are too many people, who are really unsuited to take care of children, fornicating all over the place and bringing poor little mites into the world. And then the sprogs and their parents have too many dyslexic-looking role models in high places in our society, so they don't eat properly.:)

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/dynamic/01046/Michelle-Mulherin1_1046864t.jpg