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Council Tenants Rights

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  • 15-05-2012 12:51pm
    #1
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭


    Firstly can I say that I work hard, pay a lot of taxes every month, do not get, nor seek, any handouts from the state or anyone else and I pay my rent on time every month as instructed by the council.

    I have being a council tenant for 17 years without any problems whatsoever. I have never caused any trouble and keep to myself. Over the past 5 to 6 years I have being working and each year my salary has increased. So each year there has been an upwardly adjustment on my rent account with the council and the council has advised me each year what weekly rent I was to pay for the coming year. The council advised me of the weekly rent after I supplied them with all income documentation they requested from me. Because of these upwardly rent adjustments added to my account, my account now after 6 years shows several thousand Euro in rent being owed. However, I was under the impression that I was paying the full rent the council required from me because they informed me of the rent I should pay for each coming year.

    Now the council are taking legal proceedings against me to evict me and my children from my home because they want a huge lump sum from me that I simply cannot pay. Can anyone please advise me what are my rights in this regard and also, are the council wrong in the way they assess a tenants weekly rent after they have received all the income documentation they requested? I have always paid the rent the council told me so how can I be put in this situation? Please help.

    I cannot seem to find out anything about what my rights are being a local authority tenant. I heard something about Article 8 of the European Human Rights or something like that.

    Thanking you in advance for any help or advice you may be able to offer me.


«1

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    #2
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    counciltenant wrote: »
    Firstly can I say that I work hard, pay a lot of taxes every month, do not get, nor seek, any handouts from the state or anyone else and I pay my rent on time every month as instructed by the council.

    I have being a council tenant for 17 years without any problems whatsoever. I have never caused any trouble and keep to myself. Over the past 5 to 6 years I have being working and each year my salary has increased. So each year there has been an upwardly adjustment on my rent account with the council and the council has advised me each year what weekly rent I was to pay for the coming year. The council advised me of the weekly rent after I supplied them with all income documentation they requested from me. Because of these upwardly rent adjustments added to my account, my account now after 6 years shows several thousand Euro in rent being owed. However, I was under the impression that I was paying the full rent the council required from me because they informed me of the rent I should pay for each coming year.

    Now the council are taking legal proceedings against me to evict me and my children from my home because they want a huge lump sum from me that I simply cannot pay. Can anyone please advise me what are my rights in this regard and also, are the council wrong in the way they assess a tenants weekly rent after they have received all the income documentation they requested? I have always paid the rent the council told me so how can I be put in this situation? Please help.

    I cannot seem to find out anything about what my rights are being a local authority tenant. I heard something about Article 8 of the European Human Rights or something like that.

    Thanking you in advance for any help or advice you may be able to offer me.

    Do you have the old rent documentation detailing what they said you were due to pay a month?


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    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,402 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Have they explain how a discrepancy has arisen between the rent you paid and the rent they want?

    Ask for a statement.


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    #4
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Do you have the old rent documentation detailing what they said you were due to pay a month?

    Yes and I have paid what they instructed me to pay. I am not sure if you know how councils set the rent for each tenant but it is based on your previous years income. So the weekly rent you pay throughout 2012 is based on what your income was for 2011 and your 2011 weekly rent is based on what your income was for 2010 and so on. It is the council to inform their tenants what rent they have to pay for the coming year and I have paid what they instructed me to pay.


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    #5
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    Victor wrote: »
    Have they explain how a discrepancy has arisen between the rent you paid and the rent they want?

    Ask for a statement.

    It is due to upwardly rent adjustments over the years because my salary has increased over the years. But every year I provided the council with a copy of my P60 for the previous year together with any other income details and based on that information, the council wrote to me and stated what my weekly rent was for the coming year. I believe the procedure the council has put in place to assess tenants rent is flawed but they won't even listen.


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    #6
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    How much were you paying and how much are they now proposing?


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    #7
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 826 ✭✭✭nino1


    counciltenant wrote: »
    It is due to upwardly rent adjustments over the years because my salary has increased over the years. But every year I provided the council with a copy of my P60 for the previous year together with any other income details and based on that information, the council wrote to me and stated what my weekly rent was for the coming year. I believe the procedure the council has put in place to assess tenants rent is flawed but they won't even listen.


    Your still not fully explaining where the discrepancy is coming from?

    You're saying they told you what your weekly rent was, you paid this rent and now they are looking for a lump sum.

    Can you explain the discrepancy?


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    #8
    silja
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭silja


    Are they saying you lied about your income or maybe the number of occupants in the house? If so, based on what?

    Are they saying they made a mistake assessing your rent but you still owe it? If so, you should be able to make payment arrangements?

    When did they first notify you of the discrepancy?

    Are they saying because your income went up through the year, you should have informed them in the middle of the year and the rent would have been adjusted upward?


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    #9
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    nino1 wrote: »
    Your still not fully explaining where the discrepancy is coming from?

    You're saying they told you what your weekly rent was, you paid this rent and now they are looking for a lump sum.

    Can you explain the discrepancy?

    I have outlined in an earlier post where the build up of rent came from. It was caused by upwardly rent adjustments from previous years. See my post to minidazzler three posts back and if you read my first post on this I explain there as well. I appreciate your interest and your help. I am trying to find out where I can actually find information on what my rights are because apparently a council tenant has less rights than a private tenant in that a local authority does not have to conform to the type of regulations as a private landlord. I mean, if my house was to be energy efficient rated (BER), it would get the lowest of lowest rating because the house is not energy efficient on any level. The council say they have no legal obligation to replace the windows or doors even though I have shown to them there is a health and safety issue here.

    The windows are in the house since it was build almost 30 years ago, the glass in them is the old very thin glass which is not only dangerous, but you cannot use it in modern houses. The front and back doors are warped so they cannot be closed properly, the door bolts/locks won’t lock because the door is warped the locks cannot line up with the piece on the door frame so I cannot bolt my front or back doors close. During the winter, the upstairs bedroom and bathroom windows won’t open because the window frames are so old and full of damp they expand so much you just cannot open them. Also during the winter, there is a build of ice inside each window because they offer absolutely no insulation from the elements or from the street noise. Does anyone know of any other council tenant who has had a similar experience with their local council and if so, what did they do?


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    #10
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    counciltenant wrote: »
    I have outlined in an earlier post where the build up of rent came from. It was caused by upwardly rent adjustments from previous years. See my post to minidazzler three posts back and if you read my first post on this I explain there as well. I appreciate your interest and your help. I am trying to find out where I can actually find information on what my rights are because apparently a council tenant has less rights than a private tenant in that a local authority does not have to conform to the type of regulations as a private landlord. I mean, if my house was to be energy efficient rated (BER), it would get the lowest of lowest rating because the house is not energy efficient on any level. The council say they have no legal obligation to replace the windows or doors even though I have shown to them there is a health and safety issue here.

    The windows are in the house since it was build almost 30 years ago, the glass in them is the old very thin glass which is not only dangerous, but you cannot use it in modern houses. The front and back doors are warped so they cannot be closed properly, the door bolts/locks won’t lock because the door is warped the locks cannot line up with the piece on the door frame so I cannot bolt my front or back doors close. During the winter, the upstairs bedroom and bathroom windows won’t open because the window frames are so old and full of damp they expand so much you just cannot open them. Also during the winter, there is a build of ice inside each window because they offer absolutely no insulation from the elements or from the street noise. Does anyone know of any other council tenant who has had a similar experience with their local council and if so, what did they do?

    if you are working then why not move out and rent in private accomodation.

    you don't make it clear how there is a descripancy, yes they up your rent to match your increase in salary in the previou syear. But have you not been paying them the difference?

    if you have there where is the balance coming from..


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    #11
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    It sounds like they are ripping you off. I pay 1150 per month for an ok 2 bed apartment. Would you be paying much more than this for a house? You are beholden to no state body in the private market.


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    #12
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    counciltenant wrote: »
    I cannot seem to find out anything about what my rights are being a local authority tenant. I heard something about Article 8 of the European Human Rights or something like that.

    Thanking you in advance for any help or advice you may be able to offer me.

    there is a recent decision by the Supreme Court called Donegan v Dublin City Council. That may be of some assistance to you. You should complain to the Ombudsman.


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    #13
    OneIdea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭OneIdea


    Council rent is 10% of the combined households earnings, its not a yearly set rate, if your income goes up, your rent does so according, however in your defense it does take the council a year to process rent assessment forms.

    I'm not saying your to blame, but if your earning more it was and is the responsibility of the tenant to notify the council, as I'm sure you would if for example you unfortunately lost your job.


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    #14
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    OneIdea wrote: »
    Council rent is 10% of the combined households earnings, its not a yearly set rate, if your income goes up, your rent does so according, however in your defense it does take the council a year to process rent assessment forms.

    I'm not saying your to blame, but if your earning more it was and is the responsibility of the tenant to notify the council, as I'm sure you would if for example you unfortunately lost your job.

    WOW 10% how do I become a tenant, here's me paying 30%

    I know where the next auterisrtiy measure should be aimed..


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    #15
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    silja wrote: »
    Are they saying you lied about your income or maybe the number of occupants in the house? If so, based on what?

    Are they saying they made a mistake assessing your rent but you still owe it? If so, you should be able to make payment arrangements?

    When did they first notify you of the discrepancy?

    Are they saying because your income went up through the year, you should have informed them in the middle of the year and the rent would have been adjusted upward?

    No they are not saying I lied about my income and they are not saying they made a mistake. The procedure to assess what rent a council tenant pays the council each week is set down by the council. At the start of each year, the council sends you a rent assessment form for the coming year. On this form, you provide all income details for the previous year NOT the coming year. When you send that back to the council they asses the information and then they write to you and tell you what your new weekly rent is for the coming year. This new weekly rent should, or I am assuming it should, take into account of any rent adjustment, up or down, so that when you pay the new weekly rent for the coming year, at the end of the year, you have paid your rent in full. But it appears the council have wrongly applied the rent adjustments for the past few years and are now seeking a huge lump sum.


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    #16
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    Tell them to get stuffed and move out. Why would you want to stay in council accommodation if you have a job?


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    #17
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    ted1 wrote: »
    if you are working then why not move out and rent in private accomodation.

    you don't make it clear how there is a descripancy, yes they up your rent to match your increase in salary in the previou syear. But have you not been paying them the difference?

    if you have there where is the balance coming from..

    I am working and I work hard and long hours and pay all my taxes as a PAYE worker. I pay all the rip off stealth taxes everyone else does.

    I have explained a number of times where the difference is coming from but it appears to me that the logic behind the councils thinking of assessing the coming years rent based on the previous years income assumes that over the years there will be upward adjustments and downward adjustments in the weekly rent so it will even itself out. But in my case, for the past few years there has only being upward adjustment, so because the council have not divided the increase from the previous year by 52 and applied this amount on top of the current rent, this has caused a build up in rent owed. They have also never requested the upward adjustment in a lump sum because they, or at least they are supposed to, spread the upward adjustment amount over the course of the coming year and you pay that amount on top of your new weekly rent, which is what I was doing for years.

    Just to make it clear, I am not looking to avoid paying my rent and I am not looking for sympathy. I am simply looking to ask if anyone knows of where I can find out information on what my rights are being a local authority tenant. I have searched on the internet and I cannot find anything.


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    #18
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    Kosseegan wrote: »
    there is a recent decision by the Supreme Court called Donegan v Dublin City Council. That may be of some assistance to you. You should complain to the Ombudsman.

    Hi Kosseegan

    Many thanks for your assistance. I came across that case today so I am looking more into that article 8. I have also contacted the Ombudsman today and they have asked me to write to them as this is something they said they would like to look at. They didn't promise anything but at least they will look at it.

    Again, thank you for your advice, which I very much appreciate.


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    #19
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    ted1 wrote: »
    WOW 10% how do I become a tenant, here's me paying 30%

    I know where the next auterisrtiy measure should be aimed..

    wow, another muppet like response


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    #20
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    OneIdea wrote: »
    Council rent is 10% of the combined households earnings, its not a yearly set rate, if your income goes up, your rent does so according, however in your defense it does take the council a year to process rent assessment forms.

    I'm not saying your to blame, but if your earning more it was and is the responsibility of the tenant to notify the council, as I'm sure you would if for example you unfortunately lost your job.

    Thanks for your post. But to correct you, council rent is not 10% of the combined household income, it is 11% of the principle earner’s income. The council reviews your rent on an annual basis which is why they send you a rent assessment form at the start of each year. Yes if you lost your job you can contact the council and inform them your income has immediately lowered. Your current rent would be reduced I am sure but the upward adjustment portion for the previous year wouldn’t be reduced as this portion is owed from the previous year.


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    #21
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    ted1 wrote: »
    if you are working then why not move out and rent in private accomodation.

    you don't make it clear how there is a descripancy, yes they up your rent to match your increase in salary in the previou syear. But have you not been paying them the difference?

    if you have there where is the balance coming from..

    Ted1, please read my previous posts because I have outlined as clear and as easy as I can how the council rent assessment works. This is the council’s procedure and one which they inform you is the one to follow. Yes I have being paying the council the difference every year but if you read my previous posts you will see that the council’s procedure causes a build up of rent owing if there are no downward rent adjustments. This is the point I have highlighted to the council and one which they will not comment on.


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    #22
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    Is that 11% of your net or gross income?


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    #23
    counciltenant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭counciltenant


    tagfan wrote: »
    Is that 11% of your net or gross income?

    Net.


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    #24
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    €200 per month? €300 per month?

    You are taking the piss. I'm paying 1150 a month for a 2 Bed Apartment whilst you are working away like the rest of us essentially getting a free house. Join the real world for a change.


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    #25
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    darokane wrote: »
    wow, another muppet

    What point are you trying to make?


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    #26
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    tagfan wrote: »
    €200 per month? €300 per month?

    You are taking the piss. I'm paying 1150 a month for a 2 Bed Apartment whilst you are working away like the rest of us essentially getting a free house. Join the real world for a change.

    The OP has been in the house obviously since they were unemployed and then got work since, why would they move out of their home?
    More fool you for paying extortionate amounts of rent:D


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    #27
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    So darokane, where do you propose the ordinary decent workers live? do you think the state could afford to subsidize us all?


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    #28
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    darokane wrote: »
    The OP has been in the house obviously since they were unemployed and then got work since, why would they move out of their home?
    More fool you for paying extortionate amounts of rent:D

    What am I meant to do? I have a job in Dublin and have to rent there. More fool me for not being a leech you mean?


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    #29
    Jesus Shaves
    Registered Users Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Jesus Shaves


    ted1 wrote: »
    So darokane, where do you propose the ordinary decent workers live? do you think the state could afford to subsidize us all?

    you should have bought your own house during the boom


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    #30
    tagfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭tagfan


    darokane wrote: »
    you should have bought your own house during the boom
    haha yeah rent is dead money. I'm saving away 900 quid a month as it is because I'm a smart guy and know how to budget properly. I'll have my own place someday and I won't have anybody else to thank. I'm sick to death of paying for other peoples houses.


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    #31
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    darokane wrote: »
    you should have bought your own house during the boom
    No way would I? I'm just about to close on one. I read the market and decided to rent till now.


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