(US) Innocent man executed...

Sykk

Nodin wrote: »

You want the death penalty as a deterrent, but aren't bothered about who is executed or why. Essentially you want to have a semi-random series of killings to deter killings. I'm not seeing the logic.

"Essentially" you don't know what you're talking about.

In a bullet proof case where a person is absolutely guilty of something like murder/rape with a potential to reoffend and an utter threat to society, then I don't see a problem with capital punishment.

Albeit the guy was wrongly executed and those in charge of the investigation should be disciplined. However, I'm not going to shed a tear for the guy as he already had a series of offences after repeat attacks on people.

davet82

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd say so as well, but you also got to take into account, a lot of people who would do something that can result in the death penalty, do so under the impression they won't get caught. Making the punishment pretty much irrelevant as as a detterent, but more so to "Fit the seriousness of crime."

i appreciate your arguement on the deterrant, most crimes of murder are usually drink/drug related impulse acts i reckon so no deterrant can account for that.

juan.kerr

Unfortunate but just means they should be more careful.

davet82

[QUOTE=Sykk;78692588
In a bullet proof case [/QUOTE]

These too were suppose to be ' bullet proof'... yet there have been 140 people exonerated since 1973 in the usa from death row with evidence of their innocence, luckily they have some sense to pro long the date of exectution but some are not so lucky like the guy in the article

86 of them since 1994, that blows your 'with todays forensics' arguement out of the water

Chuck Stone

davet82 wrote: »

i think the story is a fairly good arguement to why we should still not execute prisoners?

No. It's an appalling argument.

How about we just don't execute people because it's wrong to kill people?

I mean killing people is a bad thing, yeah?

davet82

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No. It's an appalling argument.

How about we just don't execute people because it's wrong to kill people?

I mean killing people is a bad thing, yeah?

i was pointing it out to add to the obvious

Chuck Stone

davet82 wrote: »

i was pointing it out to add to the obvious

Ah right.

My mistake.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's wrong to kidnap people and hold them against their will for extended periods of time to but we still have jails and prisons

smellslikeshoes

preddy wrote: »

I for one don't like the idea of some Murder wasting 20+ years of my tax money watching TV tucked up with their iphone then getting released as if they are going to be magicaly rehabilitated.

An Eye for an Eye i say.:mad:

Every time one of these threads come up, the cost argument appears.
It costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for the rest of their life.

Chuck Stone

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it's wrong to kidnap people and hold them against their will for extended periods of time to but we still have jails and prisons

I don't see what viable alternatives there are to incarceration for perpetrators who pose a threat to the community.

Seachmall

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't see what viable alternatives there are when the perpetrator poses a threat to the community.

>.>

<.<

...Australia...

Sykk

davet82 wrote: »

These too were suppose to be ' bullet proof'... yet there have been 140 people exonerated since 1973 in the usa from death row with evidence of their innocence, luckily they have some sense to pro long the date of exectution but some are not so lucky like the guy in the article

86 of them since 1994, that blows your 'with todays forensics' arguement out of the water

Read the first part of your statement, then watch the second contradict yourself...

A factual investigation wouldn't have led to this guys death.... Differing Eye witnesses doesn't make fact. CCTV and DNA make fact. Flaws in the justice system doesn't "Blow my argument out of the water" just because some idiot investigator/judge can't do their jobs properly.

aidan24326

CruelCoin wrote: »

Some people deserve to die.

Take the following example:

Man rapes woman, get released after 4 years, rapes again, 4 years, rapes again 4 years.

This man is beyond all redemption. he will never reform or be reformed, and will remain a danger to the community untill the day he dies.

In what world would this man deserve to live?

In the US, just for example, a guy on a second rape conviction would not be getting 4 years in jail, he'd get life and that would mean life without parole in most states.

And those eye for an eye blood lusting supporters of the death penalty should bear in mind that life without parole in a maximum security prison is a fate arguably worse than the death penalty.

Anyone watch that show 'Russia's hardest prisons'? About the max security prison called 'Black Dolphin'. The prisoners there live a nightmarish existence of solitude, degradation and deprivation. US supermax prisons are not much fun either, with prisoners often confined to their cell for 23 out of every 24 hours, and with no possibility at all of ever being released. I think I'd take the death penalty tbh.

hooradiation

Sykk wrote: »

A factual investigation wouldn't have led to this guys death....

So we now have you acknowledging that the system isn't perfect.
Good

Now, would you like to explain how despite knowing this it makes sense to have a system that is capable of mistakes handing out the death penalty.

davet82

Sykk wrote: »

A factual investigation wouldn't have led to this guys death.....

but it did or at least they thought they did, too many mistakes are being made and last time i checked you cant take 'death' back

DEFTLEFTHAND

Britain have sent men to the gallows on very flimsy evidence as well. In 1953 19 year old petty thief Derek Bentley was hanged on the basis that he instructed his 16 year old accomplice during a hold up by police to surrender his fire arm. The accomplice misinterpreted Bentleys instruction to 'let him have it' and instead opened fire fatally wounding a police officer.

In 1950 Timothy Evans was executed for the murder of his daughter. In the aftermath it transpired that he had in fact been innocent as after a follow up investigation 16 years later his house tenant admitted to the murder. This case would sow the seeds for the abolition of capital punishment in the UK.

preddy

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

It costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for the rest of their life.

I doubt that very much.

aidan24326 wrote: »

In the US, just for example, a guy on a second rape conviction would not be getting 4 years in jail, he'd get life and that would mean life without parole in most states.

And those eye for an eye blood lusting supporters of the death penalty should bear in mind that life without parole in a maximum security prison is a fate arguably worse than the death penalty.

Anyone watch that show 'Russia's hardest prisons'? About the max security prison called 'Black Dolphin'. The prisoners there live a nightmarish existence of solitude, degradation and deprivation. US supermax prisons are not much fun either, with prisoners often confined to their cell for 23 out of every 24 hours, and with no possibility at all of ever being released. I think I'd take the death penalty tbh.

3 strikes rule in the states doesnt work like that here!
Did you not see them shows "So I married a man on Death Row" pretty sure they would be in a supermax prison!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

preddy wrote: »

I doubt that very much.

doubt it all you want, it's true.

davet82

preddy wrote: »

I doubt that very much.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/

Seachmall

preddy wrote: »

I doubt that very much.

It is actually true.


Edit - Beaten to it.

preddy

Seachmall wrote: »

It is actually true.


Edit - Beaten to it.

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

doubt it all you want, it's true.

Yea but lets cut out all the legal cost crap appeals and delays etc the actual cost for the execution.
Hepatically speaking if we were changing the system in this country.

Seachmall

preddy wrote: »

Yea but lets cut out all the legal cost crap appeals and delays etc the actual cost for the execution.

But then you're increasing the odds of executing the wrong person.

The point of appeals is to demonstrate that either the conviction was unjust or the sentence was unjust (there are specific requirements that need to be met before execution becomes a viable option).

You remove the right to appeal and you make an imperfect system far worse.

davet82

preddy wrote: »

Yea but lets cut out all the legal cost crap appeals and delays etc the actual cost for the execution.
Hepatically speaking if we were changing the system in this country.

legal crap like appeals? lets just go judge dredd on this and execute them on arrest

Sykk

hooradiation wrote: »

So we now have you acknowledging that the system isn't perfect.
Good

Now, would you like to explain how despite knowing this it makes sense to have a system that is capable of mistakes handing out the death penalty.

I already did. When evidence is fact. Absolutely 100% indisputable.

Eye witnesses isn't factual, especially when stories differ.

Show me a case where the person was caught on CCTV, had DNA all over the place, had a serious history of offenses and was wrongly executed?

toexpress

Does anyone really think that taking a life for a life will ease the pain of the family? It might give them a temporary relief from the pain, that brief time after the execution where you are just thankful that the offender is gone but as someone who lost their partner in tragic circumstances I can safely say that nothing will ever make that pain go away. If I was told tomorrow that the person who killed my partner was to be hanged I wouldn't feel any better about it. On some level I might feel worse because I would think about the pain that persons family would feel (maybe not straight away but ultimately that would come into my mind)

I also think that anyone who takes a life should live with the consequences of their actions. Be those consequences be a lifetime of guilt over taking a life or the feelings of self pity because that person will spend the rest of their life serving a life sentence.

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Some people ..............to live?

The thread and the concern generally is about the innocent.

Sykk wrote:

In a bullet proof case where a person is absolutely guilty of something like murder/rape with a potential to reoffend and an utter threat to society, then I don't see a problem with capital punishment.

There's no such thing as a "bullet proof" case.

Sykk wrote:

Albeit the guy was wrongly executed and those in charge of the investigation should be disciplined. However, I'm not going to shed a tear for the guy as he already had a series of offences after repeat attacks on people.

So in reality, you've no problem with the death penalty for offences other than murder and rape.

Sykk wrote:

CCTV and DNA make fact.

They do? Given you've just dismissed "eye witnesses" its a bit odd you include CCTV.

As for DNA and forensic evidence generally.....

PLATTSMOUTH – Douglas County chief crime-scene investigator David Kofoed was found guilty Tuesday morning of tampering with physical evidence involving the 2006 homicide investigation of Murdock residents Wayne and Sharmon Stock.

Cass County District Court Judge Randall Rehmeier ruled that there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Kofoed was guilty of the Class IV felony. Rehmeier spent 35 minutes explaining how he reached the verdict in front of a courtroom that included family members of both Kofoed and the Stocks.

“Looking at the evidence the court does not believe that this was an accident or a mistake or that there was cross-contamination involving DNA of blood,” Rehmeier said. “The evidence does not support the argument. The state has met the burden of proof.”

http://www.cass-news.com/articles/2010/03/23/news/local/doc4ba8ec35d0953103427728.txt

HOUSTON—A former Houston Police Crime Lab technician was convicted of tampering with evidence and felony theft Wednesday morning.

http://www.khou.com/news/local/Ex-HPD-crime-lab-tech-convicted-of-evidence-tampering-felony-theft-97976189.html

San Francisco – People charged with drug offenses in San Francisco may have their cases dropped or convictions overturned due to alleged evidence tampering and substandard conditions in the police crime lab, San Francisco Public Defender Jeff Adachi announced Wednesday.

Adachi called for an independent investigation one day after San Francisco police halted all drug testing at the lab amid allegations that Deborah Madden, a 29-year employee at the lab, stole and tampered with cocaine evidence on numerous occasions. Police also revealed Madden had a 2008 domestic violence conviction and is currently facing a weapons charge.
Approximately 20 public defender clients saw their felony drug cases dismissed Wednesday morning alone. Those arrested prior to 2008 may never be able to get a fair trial, since all drug evidence has since been destroyed, Adachi said.

Police and prosecutors never disclosed Madden’s arrests to the Public Defender’s Office while continuing to call her as an expert witness at trials.

http://sfbayview.com/2010/drug-cases-dismissed-due-to-evidence-tampering-in-sfpd-crime-lab/

- a small sample.

preddy

Seachmall wrote: »

But then you're increasing the odds of executing the wrong person.

The point of appeals is to demonstrate that either the conviction was unjust or the sentence was unjust (there are specific requirements that need to be met before execution becomes a viable option).

You remove the right to appeal and you make an imperfect system far worse.

davet82 wrote: »

legal crap like appeals? lets just go judge dredd on this and execute them on arrest

Yea but lets say appeal number 4, 10 years after the Murder a Judge goes over all this evidence again........
Let the Judge be the Judge and decide after appeal 1 or 2

hooradiation

Sykk wrote: »

I already did. When evidence is fact. Absolutely 100% indisputable.

So, it's a fantasy world you want to live in, is it?
Fair enough.

By the way, we already ask that the case be of the highest possible standard when convicting anyone of anything. Hence the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt"
This mythical extra tier you're talking about does not exist.

Sykk wrote: »

Eye witnesses isn't factual, especially when stories differ.

Show me a case where the person was caught on CCTV, had DNA all over the place, had a serious history of offenses and was wrongly executed?

You seem to think DNA evidence is magic. This is a common misconception.
Have a read and see that it's not.

Sykk

hooradiation wrote: »

So, it's a fantasy world you want to live in, is it?
Fair enough.

By the way, we already ask that the case be of the highest possible standard when convicting anyone of anything. Hence the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt"
This mythical extra tier you're talking about does not exist.



You seem to think DNA evidence is magic. This is a common misconception.
Have a read and see that it's not.

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. And so, start rambling on about things that have nothing to do with anything? What are you actually talking about?

What is your profession, if you don't mind me asking?

Sykk

Nodin wrote: »

So in reality, you've no problem with the death penalty for offences other than murder and rape.

Clearly no talking to you.