BER Audit

tonyB2012

Hi,

Has anyone heard or received a documentation and practice audit 2?

Apparently it is a new type of audit which SEAI have come up with that allows them to carry out an audit on a published BER without the assessor being present which is what a site assesment would have entailed with the original Documentation and practice audit as per the Quality assurance and disciplinary procedure document.

I thought we were supposee to be issued with any amendments to the QA document.

I didnt even know that this audit existed until I received an audit report without my knowledge of the audit being carried out.

sydthebeat

are you saying that SEAI now appoint an inspector to go to the site, without the assessors knowledge, and carry out a full site assessment and DEAP procedure... ????

tonyB2012

Thats exactly what happened to me.

I eventually got through to a guy called Conor Hanniffy in SEAI who informed me that it was a new type of audit.

When I told him about the last paragraph on teh SEAI QA documnet which states that we are to be informed of any amendmenst he told me that it was a new type of audit which we did nort have to be told about.

I for one am sick to death of SEAI not folowing their own guidelines and procedures.

Im guessing you havnt heard of this new audit?

sydthebeat

nope, havent heard of it before nor have i received any email update.
Nor do i see any alter on the NAS

How hard is it to send a batch email with these updates??

tonyB2012

sydthebeat wrote: »

nope, havent heard of it before nor have i received any email update.
Nor do i see any alter on the NAS

How hard is it to send a batch email with these updates??

I really am sick and tired of the way SEAI treat us assessors,they cant even follow there own guidelines!

I have had enough i am going to make an official complaint to the ombudsman about this.

No6

So what they sent out another assessor who reassessed the building and then what happened? were they close or miles away from your assessment, did they request all your doccumentation to back up your posistion? They are getting more like the Gestapo evey day!!

topcatcbr

It is this type of treatment which has made me decide not to bother with them anymore. I have refused any assessments since march and do not intend doing any more.

I feel they treat assessors like delinquent employees. As far as i can see they change and impose new guidelines at the drop of a hat.

I had an audit by an auditor who contacted me from his own email address (which made me think he was a rival assessor) asking me for information on an assessment i had done. I ignored it and got issued points and had my ber rating revoked as i didn't respond within the allotted time.

When i mentioned that they will only respond to mail sent from my registered email address why then should I treat their Auditors any different. I also explained that that auditor could have been anyone looking for info on a building i surveyed. Their response to this was the email had SEI (at the time it was still) headed paper.

I reluctantly accepted the points (I couldn't be bothered arguing any further) Resubmitted the original data issued a new cert and heard no more.

I was quite busy at the time.

They are the only points i have ever recieved and still feel it was a poor way to treat some one who spent alot of money becoming an assessor and complying with their every whim.

tonyB2012

No6 wrote: »

So what they sent out another assessor who reassessed the building and then what happened? were they close or miles away from your assessment, did they request all your doccumentation to back up your posistion? They are getting more like the Gestapo evey day!!

all i received was an audit report with the errors found i.e. number of vents and ground floor area incorrect. they didnt ask for any information from me nor did they tell me how many vents they counted or what area they calculated.

i went back to the house,as i doubhted myself, but i had done the assesment correctly. There was a vent in the living room which i didnt include but thats because it is cancelled out by a chimney or flue,in this case it was a flue.

i of course appealled it but i have heard nothing yet, that was 4 weeks ago.

but it doesnt end there, i recieved 3 more of the same audits since then. i asked conor haniffy seai about this and all he had to say is that it was completely normal to receive that many audits in such a short space of time.

the system is completely unfair and i for one am sick of it and really feel like im beong bullied by them.

i always try to do everything by the book but i dont know why i bother.

i mean getting 4 of these in audits in one month how is that supposed to give the assessor a chance to improve if they keep attacking you like this and auditing bers from last year?

tonyB2012

topcatcbr wrote: »

It is this type of treatment which has made me decide not to bother with them anymore. I have refused any assessments since march and do not intend doing any more.

I feel they treat assessors like delinquent employees. As far as i can see they change and impose new guidelines at the drop of a hat.

I had an audit by an auditor who contacted me from his own email address (which made me think he was a rival assessor) asking me for information on an assessment i had done. I ignored it and got issued points and had my ber rating revoked as i didn't respond within the allotted time.

When i mentioned that they will only respond to mail sent from my registered email address why then should I treat their Auditors any different. I also explained that that auditor could have been anyone looking for info on a building i surveyed. Their response to this was the email had SEI (at the time it was still) headed paper.

I reluctantly accepted the points (I couldn't be bothered arguing any further) Resubmitted the original data issued a new cert and heard no more.

I was quite busy at the time.

They are the only points i have ever recieved and still feel it was a poor way to treat some one who spent alot of money becoming an assessor and complying with their every whim.

i have since had a quick chat with my solicitor and she told me that if it went to court a judge would look at it from a point of view if the individual has been treated fairly. Clearly you were not treated fairly and i also believe i jave been treated unfairly.

At least if i was present at the time of the audit i could have discussed any discrepancies instead i am stuck with an inefficient appeals process. the system is seriously flawed!

Does anyone know of any way we can get our voices heard other tgan dealing with auditors through emails only?

topcatcbr

You could try the BERAA Im not sure who is involved or what they are doing anymore. I used to be on the comettee but due to personal issues (not BER) I hadnt had the time to be be involved anymore.

I would try them first. Might help

tonyB2012

Thanks TopCAT, I appreciate your help

No6

Theres something very wrong if you have had four of this type of Audit that nobody has heard about, are you doing a lot of assessments?

tonyB2012

I was able to get in contact with an auditor today and he explained to me that this is a new type of audit that has only been around for the last three months that SEAI have basically brought out as it is a much cheaper option for them to carry out audits..i.e. they can get alot more of them done in a shorter space of time.

The auditor agreed with me that he prefered the original Documentation and practice audit as it gave the assessor a chance to learn as well as the auditor.

Yes I have been doing alot of assessments which he also explained to me was the reason I had received four of these audits and he siad I should probaly expect more of them in the future...he also told me that SEAI are probaly going to be very busy with appeals from assessors due to this new type of audit which makes me question that this new audit might be initially less costly to SEAI but it will cost them in dealing with the appeals that they will receive not to mention the time it takes us to do up an appeal!!!

sydthebeat

tonyB2012 wrote: »

I was able to get in contact with an auditor today and he explained to me that this is a new type of audit that has only been around for teh last three months that SEAI have basically brought out as it is a much cheaper option for them to carry out audits..i.e. they can get alot more of tehm done in a shorter space of time.

The auditor agreed with me that he prefered the original Documentation and practice audit as it gave teh assessor a chance to learn as well as the auditor.

Yes I have been doing alot of assessments which he also explained to me was teh reason I had received four of these audits...he also told me that SEAI are probaly going to be very busy with appeals from assessors due to this new type of audit which makes me question that this new audit might be initially less costly to SEAI but it will cost them in dealing with the appeals that they will receive not to mention teh time it takes us to do up an appeal!!!

OMG

its costs SEAI LESS to send an auditor into the field to carry out a real time assessment, with expenses, than it does to carry out a 'desk study' audit on information given.

yeah right... more like "guys we're twiddling out thumbs here due to no BER market... how can we show that we're really busy and make extra money at the same time"......

Ive heard it all now..... 'jobs for the boys' is still alive and well within Civil Service Ireland Inc.

tonyB2012

Yea..its a bit ridiculous.

Something seriously needs to be done about how SEAI treat us assessors.. I for one am really tired of it!!!

topcatcbr

How will they know when doing their audit if the results have changed from actions taken by homeowner after recieving the report and onsite advise from assessor. The second survey could be substantially different.

chatterbox007

How do they get in touch with the owners to arrange the audit? I can't imagine that is too easy especially if the house has changed hands - if the Ber was for a house for sale.

sydthebeat

i, for one, NEVER put a contact phone number or email address onto the assessment.

chatterbox007

Me neither

maddragon

Good idea. I won't put in contact details anymore either. The vents one is pure BS. I always tell the client to go into a DIY store and replace the open vents with closeable ones where applicable, ditto light bulbs. If an auditor comes along a week later then he will get a different result to me. And who audits the auditors to paraphrase that old Roman.

sydthebeat

to be honest, im very paranoid when it comes to data protection, so leaving someones phone number on an xml file doesn't sit well with me.. thats why i dont put them on.

tonyB2012

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be honest, im very paranoid when it comes to data protection, so leaving someones phone number on an xml file doesn't sit well with me.. thats why i dont put them on.

I never put contact details down on the forms,just the home owners name and address.All the houses i got audited on were people who got the grant work done so i presume they got their contact details that way.

One of the errors noticed was the secondary efficiency was incorrect but thats because the home owner put in a stove after the rating was published!

Toplink

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be honest, im very paranoid when it comes to data protection, so leaving someones phone number on an xml file doesn't sit well with me.. thats why i dont put them on.

Dead right Syd. Its only an information gathering exercise.

PaleRider

Same as above. I was audited the figures they give could not be matched. I re-checked my work. The Auditor got it wrong. I'm appealing the revoked ber. This business stinks. I hate this treatment. The reason this auditor messed up was because the assessor is not invited to the house. We should band together. I asked to meet with them in Dublin to go over this farce.

We should stop allowing them to treat us like dirt.

I could write more, but believe me I feel all your pain and disgust. I'm not sure I want to stay in this business(Farce).

tonyB2012

PaleRider wrote: »

Same as above. I was audited the figures they give could not be matched. I re-checked my work. The Auditor got it wrong. I'm appealing the revoked ber. This business stinks. I hate this treatment. The reason this auditor messed up was because the assessor is not invited to the house. We should band together. I asked to meet with them in Dublin to go over this farce.

We should stop allowing them to treat us like dirt.

I could write more, but believe me I feel all your pain and disgust. I'm not sure I want to stay in this business(Farce).

Did they say they were going to meet with you?

I find that it is next to impossible to contact someone in SEAI about this which is why i made the decision to make a complaint to the ombudsman. Maybe then they will listen. All im asking is to be treated fairly!

I recently got the qualification to do commercial ber's but i have turned awsy work because i am guaranteed to get audited and im sick of the treatment!

PaleRider

No. But would like to meet someone. I have asked to meet. I'm just not sure I want to stay in this business. It's clear they have not thought of this new audit system. In fact it encourages assessor to meet what values they have found. The whole system needs to be reviewed. Nobody deserves this treatment.

sydthebeat

PaleRider wrote: »

No. But would like to meet someone. I have asked to meet. I'm just not sure I want to stay in this business. It's clear they have not thought of this new audit system. In fact it encourages assessor to meet what values they have found. The whole system needs to be reviewed. Nobody deserves this treatment.

what do you mean?

PaleRider

For example they present their audit like this. Floor area 10kyh/m2/year. You have to know do you decrease the floor or add to it It seems odd? You have to figure it out.

sydthebeat

PaleRider wrote: »

For example they present their audit like this. Floor area 10kyh/m2/year. You have to know do you decrease the floor or add to it It seems odd? You have to figure it out.

Sorry, I still have no idea what you mean.

tonyB2012

I think Palerider means that the auditors reports do not give enough information as to the discrepancies recorded during the audit they just give the primary energy difference between what they record and what was submitted on the xml file, i.e. incorrrect number of vents (The impact of this error on the energy value is 1.13kWh/m2/yr)

PaleRider

Sorry SB - Tony B understands what I mean.
I try to explain it better.
If you accompany auditor on site and he counts 30 Light Bulbs - but there are 35 light bulbs - then the difference is say 1kwh/m2/yr - you know because you also counted five extra bulbs you know that the 1kwh/m2/yr increases.

But if the audit is completed when you are not there - the information is presented as above you are not informed how many bulbs you are over or under. This also goes for any area - walls-floor area-vents. This new audit in fact make it easy for auditor to make and cover up mistakes. The whole things stinks. It's may understanding that assessors try to match the kwh/m2/yr by increasing or decreasing areas-vents etc.