Knock Airport

coylemj

elastico wrote: »

My gripe with the development fee is that's its not included in your fare when you buy your Ryanair or whatever ticket online. There was a big issue a few years ago over airlines not showing taxes, fees and charges on ticket price but adding them at the end and this was resolved in Brussels so now we get the complete price which we search for a flight. Knock seem to think its ok to break or bend this rule.

+1 It's like buying a ticket for a concert, you arrive at the venue, have a drink beforehand and then you're told that you can't enter the auditorium without paying a levy. There's supposed to be consumer protection against hidden charges which clearly the folk in Knock airport think doesn't apply to them.

Let them charge any levy they want, provided it's an upfront charge that every intending passenger is aware of before they arrive in the airport and better still, before they click to charge their credit card with the cost of an airline ticket that doesn't include the cost of getting from the main terminal to the departure gate.

elastico

flazio wrote: »

At the end of the day it's a free market we live in. If you don't like the way Knock operates, don't use it. Whine to your TD if you think they are robbing your taxes. This discussion is just on a constant holding loop and is running out of fuel fast. Either land it or divert.

Knock are obliged to play by the same EU rules as every other airport. Have a read of the below - by my reading of things they are breaking EU rules with their sneaky little charge.

And its easy to say if you don't like it don't use but I am sure foreign tourists who are not aware of this charge are unimpressed when they get hit with it.

Can you imagine if every other airport followed this practice we could be hit with hidden charges every time we try to fly home from elsewhere in Europe.


Is the airline obliged to show the full price of the fare including taxes and charges when I am pricing flights with a view to travelling to an overseas destination?

Regulation 1008/2008/EC on air services in the Community requires that the published price for the service shall include the fare and all applicable taxes, charges, surcharges and fees which are unavoidable and foreseeable at the time of publication. In addition, details must be given of the different components of the price (fares, taxes, airport charges and other costs). It is hoped that the recent Consumer Rights Directive 2011/83/EU will increase transparency for passengers, especially when buying their transport tickets on-line. The Directive explicitly bans pre-ticked boxes, internet cost traps and any additional charges which passengers were not duly informed about in advance. Additionally, it prohibits traders from charging fees for the use of means of payment (e.g. credit cards) that exceed the cost borne by the trader for the use of these means. This Directive becomes law throughout the EU in December 2013.

Example

Jack plans to travel to Paris. Several airlines operate on the route. Based on the Regulation, Jack is assured that the price quoted by each airline is the final price and that he will not subsequently find that further charges are added on to the flight he chooses.
Discrimination in access to fares between passengers or between users of the cargo service on the basis of their place of residence or their nationality within the Community is prohibited.

BonkeyDonker

coylemj wrote: »

Let them charge any levy they want, provided it's an upfront charge that every intending passenger is aware of before they arrive in the airport and better still, before they click to charge their credit card with the cost of an airline ticket that doesn't include the cost of getting from the main terminal to the departure gate.

www.AerLingu.com wrote:

Note: All passengers aged 12 years and over departing from Knock-Ireland West airport, are required to pay an airport development fee of EUR10.00 per person. This fee is payable on departure.

See above - For Aer Lingus at least it is on the airlines booking page - if you fail to read it then it is your fault.

man98

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

See above - For Aer Lingus at least it is on the airlines booking page - if you fail to read it then it is your fault.

I just did that check myself on the FlyBe website. And wouldn't you know, I got as far as Step 1. It is most certainly not hidden!

JCX BXC

And what about the other airline that carries most of knocks passengers?

Not even the smallest mention of a €10 fee there, which is what we are referring to.

Now don't try the excuse of "its up to the airline" because its not. Its up to the airport. If an airport chooses to charge un-usual fees it should at least make sure its passengers know about it at the time of booking.

elastico

man98 wrote: »

I just did that check myself on the FlyBe website. And wouldn't you know, I got as far as Step 1. It is most certainly not hidden!

Pretty transparent there to be fair!

Nothing on Ryanair that I can see though.

coylemj

Has anyone seen that message anywhere on the Ryanair booking pages? I just attempted to book a flight from Knock to Luton next week and got as far as the screen where you enter your credit/debit card details, nothing about a levy on departure.

I realise that some will say that it's a problem for Ryanair to sort out but it still applies that a lot of tourists will get caught out and depart this country with a sour taste in the mouth.

elastico

Even if the airlines are mentioning it on their website it still does not seem to comply with the european law as set out above. The whole idea is that we see one total price when booking a flight and should not have to add or worry about any additional taxes that are not included in the initial quoted price.

man98

elastico wrote: »

Even if the airlines are mentioning it on their website it still does not seem to comply with the european law as set out above. The whole idea is that we see one total price when booking a flight and should not have to add or worry about any additional taxes that are not included in the initial quoted price.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/569378/330118.JPG FlyBe explained its legality.

cgill

elastico wrote: »

My gripe with the development fee is that's its not included in your fare when you buy your Ryanair or whatever ticket online. There was a big issue a few years ago over airlines not showing taxes, fees and charges on ticket price but adding them at the end and this was resolved in Brussels so now we get the complete price which we search for a flight. Knock seem to think its ok to break or bend this rule.

If it was illegal would this not have been addressed during one of their many operational audits? How do other airports do this too if it's illegal? Ryanair are the only airline that don't advertise the fee for obvious reasons. If Knock got the airline to collect the fee, I bet they wouldnt get the whole amount due off them. It would also add extra costs and require more employees on the airline's side to process it. Knock aren't bending or breaking any rule. I don't understand why so many people on here want to begrudge Knock of the income that they need to stay open.

coylemj

cgill wrote: »

I don't understand why so many people on here want to begrudge Knock of the income that they need to stay open.

This is the answer we've come to expect from the Knock lobby - we're all a shower of begrudgers having a go at the poor folk down west.

Nobody that I can see is begrudging anyone anything, all that I personally want to see is that Knock operates in the same transparent way that every other airport in the country operates viz. that the airlines who serve the airport include all airport charges in the fares they charge their passengers so there's no 'gotcha' charges at the last minute.

You say that collecting the money from the airlines would add to the airport's costs - are they flying in and out for free at the moment and if not, how would there be additional costs collecting an extra €10 per departing passenger?

cgill

coylemj wrote: »

This is the answer we've come to expect from the Knock lobby - we're all a shower of begrudgers having a go at the poor folk down west.

Nobody that I can see is begrudging anyone anything,

Not what I meant at all but in the past few pages here, it has been people trying to attack the reasons behind the development fee. Not everyone here is a begrudger but some people are questioning the justification behind the fee in the first place. Just because I'm explaining Knock's reasoning doesn't mean I'm the Knock lobby trying to act the victim, as you seem to be implying.

coylemj wrote: »

all that I personally want to see is that Knock operates in the same transparent way that every other airport in the country operates viz. that the airlines who serve the airport include all airport charges in the fares they charge their passengers so there's no 'gotcha' charges at the last minute.

Knock can't control what Ryanair do - no one can. The other airlines advertise the fee and it is shown clearly on the airport website, Knock really can't do much more to publicise the fee.

coylemj wrote: »

You say that collecting the money from the airlines would add to the airport's costs

If you read my post properly, that's not what I said.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

You say that collecting the money from the airlines would add to the airport's costs

cgill wrote: »

If you read my post properly, that's not what I said.

Sorry but that's exactly what you said....

cgill wrote: »

If Knock got the airline to collect the fee, I bet they wouldnt get the whole amount due off them. It would also add extra costs and require more employees on the airline's side to process it.

So I repeat my question... are they flying in and out for free at the moment and if not, how would there be additional costs collecting an extra €10 per departing passenger?

cgill

coylemj wrote: »

Sorry but that's exactly what you said....

The AIRLINE, not the airport would have extra admin costs associated with collecting the fee, accounting for it etc. In addition to having to redesign their website to collect a fee for a minority of airports.

coylemj

cgill wrote: »

The AIRLINE not the airport would have extra admin costs associated with collecting the fee, accounting for it etc

Doesn't every airline currently include airport charges in their ticket prices? Where would the extra cost arise if Knock told them to collect an additional €10?

cgill

coylemj wrote: »

Doesn't every airline currently include airport charges in their ticket prices? Where would the extra cost arise if Knock told them to collect an additional €10?

Apologies, edited my above post which you might not have seen. This is a separate fee from landing charges etc which would have to be processed differently, i presume. Either way the airlines don't want to be giving the appearance of having higher fares so it's really an irrelevant debate.

elastico

cgill wrote: »

Knock aren't bending or breaking any rule. I don't understand why so many people on here want to begrudge Knock of the income that they need to stay open.

If you bother to read the EU regulation I posted earlier its pretty simple. Passengers of train, boat, bus or airlines should be presented with the true total cost only, and no hidden fees are charges. The only reason Aer Lingus mention the fee is probably to avoid customers complaining to them about it.

Nobody on here wants to begrudge Knock anything, but if Knock want to charge a development fee then just increase the landing charges and be done with it.

This fee, as its paid at the moment is probably fine for anybody from the area who is happy to support their own, but for a tourist its just sharp practice that we see at many locations.

How do you know its not illegal? They might be getting away with it but if somebody like Ryanair took them to court over it they would probably win the case.

elastico

man98 wrote: »

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/569378/330118.JPG FlyBe explained its legality.

No they didn't explain its legality. That notice is probably only there to stop their customers complaining to them about it or giving grief to cabin crew over it.

cgill

elastico wrote: »

If you bother to read the EU regulation I posted earlier its pretty simple. Passengers of train, boat, bus or airlines should be presented with the true total cost only, and no hidden fees are charges.

Yes I did read the EU reg you posted but that seemed to have been aimed at airlines fees rather than (independent) airport fees. The development fee is more of an entry levy which is independent from the ticket price. It is not Knock's fault if Ryanair refuse to advertise the fee, other airlines publicise it and it's on the airport website. It's not feasible for the airline to collect the fee therefore the fee isn't part of the advertised ticket price.

elastico wrote: »

How do you know its not illegal? They might be getting away with it but if somebody like Ryanair took them to court over it they would probably win the case.

As mentioned earlier, Knock like any other airport gets audited regularly, surely if this was illegal, somebody would have investigated it by now. In addition to this, Galway and Waterford both charged a departure fee a few years ago, it's hardly illegal if it's used by a number of airports. I may be mistaken, but what grounds could Ryanair take them to court on?

Jamie2k9

Waterford both charged a departure fee a few years ago,

WAT still do but airlines include it.

elastico

cgill wrote: »

Yes I did read the EU reg you posted but that seemed to have been aimed at airlines fees rather than (independent) airport fees. The development fee is more of an entry levy which is independent from the ticket price. It is not Knock's fault if Ryanair refuse to advertise the fee, other airlines publicise it and it's on the airport website. It's not feasible for the airline to collect the fee therefore the fee isn't part of the advertised ticket price.




As mentioned earlier, Knock like any other airport gets audited regularly, surely if this was illegal, somebody would have investigated it by now. In addition to this, Galway and Waterford both charged a departure fee a few years ago, it's hardly illegal if it's used by a number of airports. I may be mistaken, but what grounds could Ryanair take them to court on?

So what you are saying really is you would be in favour of a European wide system where every airport, ferry port, railway station etc. had a kiosk where they charged whatever they felt appropriate to cover the cost of their "development" so nobody would know the cost of any travel until they turn up at a departure gate.

This is exactly the scenario the EU regulation seeks to avoid, people expect to be presented with the total transparent price in all instances.

As regards it being legal or not its just absurd and underhand the way its presented to unwitting tourists.

You are defending the indefensible here, by all means add the development fee to the ticket price so its paid at source, but holding tourists to ransom for an extra €10 as they want to leave the country is a joke.

cgill

Honestly at this stage it's pointless continuing to debate about the €10 fee. The defenders can't really say much more without repeating themselves incessantly. The people questioning the fee are doing the same. The fee is there whether we like it or not. Whether or not it's illegal/morally wrong is up to the reader but there's no sense trying to persuade the other side to agree with you cause it just won't happen. Good to see the points being put forward sensibly and logically without insults etc. The sad fact is that without the fee Knock wouldn't be operating today! Let's wait and see if Enda's announcement tomorrow will put them in a position to abolish the levy (as if).

coylemj

cgill wrote: »

Good to see the points being put forward sensibly and logically without insults etc.

+1 The long overdue infraction handed out recently to a poster with a history of belligerent posts and personal insults on this topic may have helped calm the waters.

Masala

Yes.... can we move on now. Its been done to death.

JCX BXC

I feel as if the knock supporters have run out of excuses and have now decided to just simply end the argument. I dont think there has been any justification of the argument, so forgive me but I would like to add a few extra points.

1.) The fee is not well publicised, sure Aer Lingus and Flybe publicise it but Ryanair do not and Ryanair is the main power of the airport flying a half million of knocks passengers in 2013, flying around 70-80% of knocks passengers. Ryanair should publicise the fee and knock should make sure this happens. I don't know how, but they should.

2). Any tourists flying into the airport use Ryanair and they would get a nice surprise of a €10 fee each on their way home. Bad experiences would prevent them from visiting Ireland again.

3). Regarding the European law, I don't know where that charge stands, but at the least it should be well known.

Issues I have personally with knock, and other regional airports.

1). Ryanair do not base aircraft at knock, which in turn means that aircraft have to fly from other bases to knock. That is fine when going to England or Scotland, but for me on my holiday to lanzarote is a big problem. The flight leaves at around 12:00-12:30 which is fine. Thats perfectly fine. But it's coming back that leaves a sting. Leaving for the airport at 5am to get a 7:30 flight is very painful. It is something that I will just not do. Its the same in the summer with the lanzarote flight from Shannon, and its why I would never use that service. I ended up using cork airport.

The reason Ryanair does not base aircraft at knock is due to its limited opening hours. Its not opened the 18 hours a day Ryanair want so they wouldn't get to fully utilise aircraft. You would think that with the €10 development fee being charged you would get this.

If knock did open for 18hours, Ryanair probably would base an aircraft at knock and would have a better chance of gaining new routes.

2). Its location.
Knock cannot be moved, nor do I dislike it for this reason but it is really put in the middle of no where. When haughey was building it as a publicity stunt, he could of at least placed it somewhere logical. BTW I have been past knock airport before while taking a drive in Mayo so I know where it is.(I understand I will probably get abuse for that comment, but that's my opinion and I honestly don't care what abuse I get)


After all those probably negative points, I wish knock a healthy future, preferably without a hidden development charge.

cgill

Carnacalla wrote: »

After all those probably negative points, I wish knock a healthy future, preferably without a hidden development charge.

I'm glad you ended with that. Your above post gives the impression that you have a big issue with Knock....the dev fee has been talked about so much I think we have clarified most of the points. You say that it appears that we have given up trying to explain it, whats the point if someone like you still wont accept the points given?
Knock's opening hours are not the cause behind it not being a Ryanair base. Do you really think if ryr set up a base that noc wouldnt be flexible on time?

cgill

eastmayo wrote: »

Enda Kenny to make an announcement in knock this coming monday,Will have to wait and see what happens.

No press conference scheduled for today. Confirmed by airport on Twitter last night.

flazio

Looked everywhere for a video clip of this, couldn't find one so.....

“Well, I guess this is a case where we’ll have to agree to disagree.” – Ned Flanders Me
“I don’t agree to that.” – Principal Skinner mayomaffia
“Neither do I.” – Mrs. Krabappel Carnacalla

elastico

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

WAT still do but airlines include it.

Which is the correct way to go about it and what customers expect.

eastmayo

cgill wrote: »

No press conference scheduled for today. Confirmed by airport on Twitter last night.

Enda Kenny in airport since 7 30 this morning